Jerry Stahl on Gonzo Neurotic, Success, and Failure

0:05Hey, it's Jeremy Kirkland. You're listening to Blammo. How are we doing? We got a new episode this week with legendary writer Jerry Stahl, which if you don't know, now you know, and he's an if you know, you know writer. I mean, he's Jerry Stahl is a legend. So I'm very, very, very excited to have him on. But I just got back in town. I was in LA. The, uh, The other week, seeing the Buck Mason archive and seeing what was going on over there. A lot of fun stuff happening over there. Seeing some friends, the usual antics, doing some retail recon. But more on that in another episode. Because, look, we got to talk Jerry Stahl.

0:50Jerry has a new book out called Gonzo Neurotic, which gave me a pretty good excuse to talk to him about a lifetime of writing, interviewing people and getting into weird situations and somehow continuing to do this for a living. I will say interviewing interviewers is a, it's tough. It's tough because we're playing ping pong with who's going to answer the question. And look, you all know me, you listen to this, you listen to this show. I'll answer any question. And I love being open and honest and just admitting all the dumb stuff I've done in my life. And somehow, I still get the privilege to talk to people about it.

1:33So I don't know, maybe I feel some sort of camaraderie, kinship with Mr. Stahl. But along the way, the conversation more became about what it is to try to make a living doing what we call, I don't know, creative work, right? I don't even think that's fair because you could say that you're getting creative engineering, but people kind of throw this whole talking about stuff and writing and the arts into creative, right? But we talk about success and failure, money, trying to get paid, not getting paid. But what keeps you going when you're trying to do this work and it's important to you? And I will say, Jerry is probably one of the funniest people I've ever talked to.

2:16So funny that, I mean, things got off the rails that even my editor and I are like, yeah, we got to nix that part. But there's a good amount that was left in. So I'm very excited for you to hear this. It's Jerry Stahl. He's on the pod. Enjoy. Let's get to it. So how are you doing with all the book press? I know the book is not out as of this second, but it will be out by the time this recording is out. But are you exhausted yet from the same stories you've had to tell or you feel like you're rediscovering what you wrote so long ago? Well, happily at my age, I have no memory. So every time I tell him, I'm telling I'm fresh.

2:55Ask me anything. It'll be like, wow, that's a great question. Well, I think the biggest thing is like, especially books where, you know, a lot of this, a lot of parts of these books are things that you've written in the past, right? And so you're, you're kind of revisiting your old self of the past 50 years. Yeah. Yeah. Were you looking at this and being like, I don't remember that guy? Or did you look at it and you, you have more fond memories then? I'm not sure fond is the word that comes to mind, but that's very charitable of you. I had no memories to like questionable memories to, yeah, I survived that.

3:34Okay. So, you know, no complaints, but it was weird to read. You know, I don't really like reading my own writing. I don't know most people who do. There's two things writers I don't read. People who like love their old writing and who laugh at their own writing while they're writing. Not a great sign, you know? Yeah. Whose voice in your head do you hear when you read your writing? That is such a great question. I think of like my different target audiences, you know what I mean? Like sometimes it'll be Marin for no apparent reason, because I wonder if that voice will be disapproving or if he'll like it because he doesn't brook fools.

4:12And just like weird people I've known, I Southwest Airlines pilots come to mind, you know, I like, I like the chipper Texas whale, we're coming, you know, like in the right stuff, you know, where Tom Wolf talks about that, that pilot voice, you know, it's like, if I could write like they talk, I'd probably have a much more flourishing career. Yeah. Cause I feel like, you know, you were one of those people where you as a writer is become its own style where there's like, Oh, that's Jerry stall where there's this kind of, you kind of have a bit of a swagger in your writing, you know, where like, I hear a voice.

4:49I don't know whose voice it is, but I've, I hear a specific kind of you. No, I mean that. I think there's, I appreciate it. Yeah. Some say swagger, some say cringe, you know, you swing back and forth. It's yeah, no, it's look, you know, you can be in your writing what you can't be in life sometimes, but you know, I, I think because I started out writing about some very gnarly, narcotic, narco-centric issues. A lot of the way people respond to my writing is, isn't he about to write? They want to come up and tell me their hellacious stories. You know what I mean? Yeah. Which is great. You know, I would much rather talk about other people than myself.

5:28I don't know about you. I mean, no doubt you too, right? I mean, you're an interviewer. So that's the nature of the beast. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, I've never experienced it as I assume you have. But there's occasionally people be like, Like, you know, I once talked to fill in the blank and they told me this. Or I had a watch. Yeah. You know, and I'm curious how you've handled that over the years, as I'm sure you've had many people where they're sharing stories that I imagine are somewhat traumatic or they're triumphant. But, you know, do you ever feel like you have to kind of ride on or glad you're following the steps?

6:06Oh, that. No, I don't give advice. I in no way set myself up as any kind of example. You just listen and say, yeah, listen, man, glad you made it. And, you know, whatever, you know, it's, you know, if you go the guru route, you deserve to be, you know, hit by a bus immediately. Yeah, I do think that there is, you know, especially where people like yourself who have, you know, you've profiled such significant people, but also gotten those people to share a part of themselves that maybe have never been shared before. I mean, you're pretty close with Maren. How much have you guys ever discussed interview styles or anything like that?

6:44I think the only thing we ever discussed, because I always talk about that, is that one thing where you wait people out. Because everybody's got their script. Yeah. And then comes that really awkward fucking silence. And if you can just sit there and that kind of, it's horrible. It's so awkward. but if you can get to the other side of that conversational desert, then people start to really talk because they're off. Essentially they're off script. They're off the usual story. I mean, have you found that you're a professional Q and a man? Uh, for me, I don't have like formal training. It's more, I have a, who has formal training.

7:23I mean, come on. Well, I have more of a, I have the luxury of essentially only talking to people that I like. So I'm already, how do you know you like them? Well, that's the thing, right? I have an idea of who they are. Has anybody ever disappointed you? Like, Oh my God, what a dick. Yeah, absolutely. And those episodes never get released. You know, I've had people. They never get, do they wonder like, why did you never air this episode? Yeah. There's a couple of people that I had on where they, their team or someone reached out and they're like, Hey, whatever happened with this? And it's great because at least in my, you know, situation, everything I'm, recording like digitally or you know so i'll blame a memory card issue or i'll blame nicely done well now you've outage yourself oh yeah you know one person was like oh have you ever uh you know they're like whatever happened to this and i made something up and they busted me on it and i was like yeah i was like somehow i my uh my memory card when it went through the scanner at the airport it erased it and they were like oh i've never heard of that ever happening and i was like I don't know.

8:29I got, I got the time for everything. Yeah. Wow. You were clearly not an accomplished liar, but you know, hats off for the effort, you know? Yeah. I, well, and that's the other thing too, is like, yeah, I think you feel for me, there's already a bit of a, like a shared camaraderie. And so oftentimes where I feel like, oh, if I tell you this, I mean, Maren does that well, you know because a lot of your stuff is there's it's written uh there's what we don't hear of your side when you're just conversing with someone but you you get the i don't know luxury per se of experiencing the person's life with them simultaneously you know so i'm i'm curious was there ever a part of any of those experiences whether you're you know following this person to x or y place where you're like maybe maybe you should put this in oh yeah i mean i uh i spent a really wholesome, fun-filled week or two in New Orleans with Mickey Rourke back in the proverbial day on Angel Heart.

9:30And let's just say when it came out, his manager thanked me, and we'll leave it at that. Because look, who among us does not have shit you wouldn't want? Well, not me, because I certainly made a career out of it, but other people have shame. Interesting on that. I mean, you said you made a career out of the shame. well what what do i mean i don't know it sounded good when it came out of my mouth um what i mean is you know you talk about my the kind of stuff i love to read or music or whatever you know are it's you know people who say the unsayable the uncomfortable thing which me being me comes out you know generally comes out funny because you know that's how it is you know uh so i had this weird i had this thing once i and i spent a lot of time interviewing over the years i I interviewed Sam Jackson.

10:17I asked him how I became an actor. He says, well, you know, it's kind of a dope fiend and a crackhead. So I learned how, you know, acting is just like finding out what people want, you know, asking people for what you need in a way that they think they need to hear it so that you're going to get what you need to get so that they think they need to give it to you. I'm butchering that mightily. But it was essentially about, you know, you just kind of read the other person and go with it. You know, I mean, you can tell in a few minutes whether you're going to connect with somebody or not, right? Have you ever had that uh-oh feeling after like two minutes in and you're like, oh, this is going to be a ground glass crawl, you know?

10:50Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, we're both wearing glasses and, and occasionally when we're, when I've done pods remotely, um, I see their glasses all of a sudden brighten up and I'm like, oh, they're, they're searching something or they're, oh, you're kidding me. Right. Like you can see the computer reflected. Yeah. So I'm such an idiot. I thought you meant they got happy. No. I see their glasses are brightening up. Yeah. I'll see that they're, you know, distracted or, and I think literally on their phone while they're talking to you. Yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Oh man. Um, and it looks, you know, there's times like that when that's happened, it's, I never take any offense ever because the world is, you know, a complete shit show.

11:35And I also understand that first, you know, for some people, depending on whom it is, there's a very busy day ahead of them, you know, and they are completely zapped. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, right? You're a very nice man. Well, you know, my father was trying his best, I guess, but he, you know, there's... Whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. What do you mean, your father? Yeah. He tried to make you a nice guy, you mean? I think so. I mean, what about your dad? Well, let's not even, what did your father do? My dad was a pastor. A pastor? Mm-hmm. He was a musician first. Was he like a church?

12:09Did he play in church? He played the like folk guitar in church no a youth pastor no he actually played with um uh dan peak and the guy uh the dude from america and was you know played around with those dudes and horse with no name oh my god yeah yeah sister golden hair all that stuff good god so you're descended from like folk rock royalty no because my dad didn't get any publishing nor did he really get much money is that because they screwed him or did i don't know i i think that would probably be a mischaracterization, but I know that my dad and my, well, he's passed now, but my dad and Dan Peek were, were, were pretty close.

12:47Oh, that's good. Yeah. But yeah, no, I think every parent you're trying, you know, I think there's a weird empathy that you get as an individual, the older you get and you, you see people just being burnt out by things that are just uncontrollable in this world. You know, as somebody smarter than me said, you know, everybody's fighting a war that you don't see, you know, everybody's, everybody's going through it. And if you know that you can have compassion and, you know, not to sound too soft at the center, but it is true. You know, everybody's going through hell, you know, and I don't trust anybody who hasn't been to hell.

13:20Yeah. Why is that? Particularly because in relationships, it saves you from having to send them there. So, so that works out. But also, you know, it's like, it's like a shared, you know, kind of a shared, you can see it in each other's eyes, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I will. I think people that have experienced trauma or pain, it's an accidental, you know, hidden burden on their back. Right. And so if once you've experienced that, I think there is a, the only blessing you get from that is the ability to see it in others. And so you can. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. You're kind of drop kicked into enlightenment, you know?

13:56Do you think that's why you always had such strong connections with your subjects? Uh, perhaps, but also I think because my story, well, actually just like before I wrote my memoir and after, but after people sort of recognize I was like a leper, you know, because they knew my story was, was so hellacious that I was like, I was like, I was always, I was an outsider. So they could talk to me because it's like, you can always talk to the, you know, you can talk to the leper because he's outside the colony, you know, he's outside your, And there was an advantage to that. So people would tell me their stories because, you know, A, I'm unshockable.

14:33And B, it's like there's a certain simpatico there and they feel like they can relax. Does that make any sense? It makes perfect sense. I know exactly what you're talking about. And before that, when I was just literally on dope out in the world, you know, because I'm sort of a shy person. So, you know, for me to go to a nude singles weekend, you know. As one does. And stand in line at the buffet with like, you know, genitalia at the level of a genitalia level potato salad, you know, with that one pube in the coleslaw, you know, and just kind of just kind of roll through it. Yeah. You know, it's like whatever, whatever helps you survive eventually will kill you.

15:12But in that phase, it was still helping me survive. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, you'd mentioned the Mickey Rourke thing. there is a bit of understanding that I think happens in your writing where, you know, I'll read something and it's, I have one perception of this individual and then I feel like I have something in common with them later. Like, is that how you would approach what you define as something that was like maybe successful or unsuccessful? That's a great way to put it, actually. Yeah. You know, maybe I don't frame it as successful or unsuccessful, but when you've that connection, that is successful because you've found something because a lot of people are hostile.

15:50Everybody's been burned in interviews. Nobody trusts anybody or a lot of people don't. And I don't blame, I mean, I've certainly been misquoted and same, you know? Yeah. When did you start to feel successful as a writer? I'm still waiting, man. I don't think in those terms. I just, it's more like all the other shit I don't have to do. You know what I I mean, because I've had all the shit job. I mean, not to brag, but I worked at McDonald's at 38, you know? Yeah. So nothing says success like putting on that outfit every day. You want to talk about fashion. How about putting on the McDonald's jersey and cap every day at the ripe age of 38 so that this was in Phoenix?

16:30Again, go figure. So all the guys from Motorola would come in and, you know, look at that, you know, and start making cracks, you know. I bet you wish you finished high school. you know, that kind of shit. Really? Yeah. It was, it was fantastic, particularly because I peed in the egg McMuffin batter, but that's a, that's a separate story for another day. You know, we will have our revenge, you know, we will have our revenge. Can I ask what your hourly wage was at McDonald's? Ooh, I think we were talking about a four 32 an hour,$4 and 32. And again, not to brag. I don't want to like, you know, don't everybody get jealous, but it's just, Yeah.

17:07And, you know, my outfit, you know, I got the outfit. My most prized possession is the McDonald's employee handbook, which talks about how you should try and shower at least once every three days. Get out of town. It says that. And trust me, when I walked out of that place, I smelled like I was made of lard. I mean, it was, which I kind of am, but that's a separate issue. But, uh, it was so heinous. And, you know, I, I had the job of scraping the crap off and the back because I wasn't the good public face of McDonald's. They put me in back because when I was a fry man, you know, I have one of those hate faces.

17:41My older daughter says I have the hate face. You know, my resting face is like, fuck you, which I don't feel that, but, you know, it has followed me through life, you know? And not great. I don't know if, you know, generations of, you know, Ashkenazi Jews, that was some sort of survival mechanism. I can't imagine it was. but uh you know they stuck me in back so i could scrape the uh trays off and clean them and you'd be ankle deep and my job was to get there at five in the morning when they had the the pallets of patties laying it's already like 98 degrees and this meat was green you know and we're slapping that on the grid you know slapping it out there and uh yeah so we were talking about success Do you eat McDonald's now?

18:29Oh God, I haven't had meat in forever, no. Yeah. Oh, that's right. See, when I was younger, I mean, in my 30s, 40s, you know, I was told I had a year to live because I had hepatitis C. Yeah. Because back then, everybody was thrilled to get hepatitis C because it meant you didn't have AIDS. I mean, because it not didn't mean you didn't have AIDS, but it was so, it could have been so much worse. So if you dodged the virus but got hep C, you're like, yeah, I'll take it. But nevertheless, it can't kill you. And there was no cure at that time. So, you know. Wait, hold on a second. I am in the middle of auctioning a watch of mine off on bezel.

19:03Just a few more minutes left. Look, yes, your favorite site to buy and sell luxury timepieces of all the heavy hitters from Rolex and Lange and Cartier. I could go on and on and on. they also let you auction your own watch on their incredibly safe and secure marketplace. After the auction ends, I'm just going to ship my watch to them with the prepaid label they gave me, and boom, your boy's going to get some money in his account to, well, in my case, buy another watch. But I'm not here to discuss that part. I am trying to tell you why I use Bezel to buy and sell and now auction all my favorite watches.

19:37Check it out. Well, I mean, finish the pod first, but hey, look, I get it if you want to hit that pause button. So visit GetBezel.com and get nuts with your next favorite timepiece. That's GetBezel.com. Shop the nearly 25 ,000 luxury watches on there and rest assured your purchases are authenticated by Bezel's team of experts. And psst, if there's something on there you're not seeing, you want that ultra rare Long A or that CPCP Cartier, just hit up their concierge and they will source it for you. They're real people and they'll talk to you and they'll find that dream watch for you. So visit getbezel.com.

20:15That's getbezel.com. All right, all right, back to the show.

20:22So I was healthy is the point of that story. I became a vegetarian. I would shoot up and jog. I mean, you know, I was playing all the angles. Well, I mean, I feel like because you've gotten such a spectrum of experience, right, to be diplomatic here. And I made me on the spectrum. So either way, yeah. Welcome to the show. Sure. I mean, but do you feel like that's where a lot of your kind of empathy superpower stuff comes from? I don't know if it's superpower, but absolutely. Yeah. You know, because life's fucking hard for people, man. Yeah, it is. You know, and you know, I get, I get to write and some years you maybe make a million, some years you lose a million, you know, and some years you make 15 bucks, you know, but you do get to do what you want to do and nobody puts a gun to your head.

21:06So that's, that is success in a way, right? Yeah. I'm not, I'm not a McDonald's anymore. You know, you're right. I mean, I'm in downhill after that, man. I feel like I'm in this now in the sense that, you know, and so I'll ask selfishly for myself, please. Why, why do you keep going if you have a bad year? What else are you going to do? What are you going to do? Commit suicide? Well, I don't know. I mean, well, I mean, I, but I, I come from that. You know, you commit suicide, the blood sprays on everybody else. So essentially you stay alive just because it's the most selfish thing you can do. But a bad year is a bad year.

21:42Yeah, it's not great. I've had so much rejection that it doesn't matter anymore. You know what I mean? It's whatever my, you know, whatever niggling luck I've had is, you know, it's luck. I didn't become a writer because I had talents because I needed something I could do at three in the morning naked fucked up you know not a lot of jobs fit that description you know i'm different now of course i put on a suit and tie every morning like dick nixon and sit down with my legal bed but i feel like there's there's something there that you know that whatever the perseverance is because look i i'm in the middle of a bunch of bullshit right now to be somewhat transparent like what?

22:22So I got hired to work on this event for this large media company. And I, P.S., as a person who's been self-employed for about 10 years, I'm very much - Yeah, which is impressive, man. Thank you. I'm very much used to doing the work to get the work. Then you do the work that you got. Then you do the work after you got the work to tell the people who you worked for to pay you for the work you did, right? Very relatable. And I feel like lately I spend more time doing the work to tell the people that I did the work. That's right. To get paid for the work. Isn't that fucked up? That's the economy now.

23:03And it's, you know, and look, I want to say I'm still very, very privileged. I get to talk to incredible people like you all the time. I, you know, I don't know hunger or, you know, I have air conditioning and clean water. Look, I get it. No, I get it. You're not complaining. You're reporting. Yeah, it's very humbling to be in a position of, you know, I sent an email to a person who hasn't paid me in 120 days and I let them know that my kids love organic strawberries and it would be so great to go to Whole Foods later and just go nuts on some strawberries. and I literally included a photo of my kids because I wasn't desperate, but I knew this other person had kids and I'm like, come on, like, do we really need to be here?

23:50I'm like, look, here's my kids help. Let's get some strawberries. How did that work? I got paid immediately. In strawberries. I'm going to have to try that. That's great. Oh, it's fantastic. And, but it also is like, that's fucked up. I don't want to be a person that's like, no, of course not. But the, you know, the line that I'm connecting here is the fact that so many times I feel like I've been stuck in this level of, you know, what looks like optical success, but maybe not the form of air quote, you know, material success or security, right, that you're looking for or that you think maybe to sound arrogant now that I might deserve based on said labor or time put in.

24:30Well, how old are you now? 41. Okay. Do you have security? I don't know. I mean, define security, right? Well, what I mean is, are you scuffling from paycheck to paycheck or do you have a little cushion? No, I mean, I'm like, how often do your kids get strawberries? Put it that way. They get strawberries once a month. I mean, or actually not once a month, once a week. I mean, look, and that's the thing is like, we're, we're good. I'm, I'm talking to you from a home and that's the thing, right? Is I feel like, but I'm also among friends and peers. Cause the point is to kind of push this on you and the curiosity here where I'm among, among friends and peers who they're in these levels of skyrocketing success.

25:05I know. I know. Security. and they view me as a peer, but I'm not a peer in the material aspect, and that's okay, but I feel like, yeah, I hit the wall enough that there's been times that I'm like, what the fuck am I doing? Should I be doing this? Like, is it time to hang it up? Like, what's, you know? And so I'm curious, like, it sounds like you've hit that a few times that you've had from a bird's eye view this incredible career, so much of a career, but there's a book now. uh like hubert selby who was kind of a mentor to me i don't know if you know who he is he wrote a book called last exit to brooklyn they made a movie out of it and yeah yeah yeah and he always say you can't bounce to hit the bottom you know and uh you know uh it sounds like you've bounced a couple of times and here you are but you you want more and that's only normal you know but you know i having i i had that weird i know exactly what you're talking about because before i wrote permanent midnight and they made a movie out all the shit i never expected I didn't know from movie stars.

26:09I was not my world. You know, I was just some scuffling journalist pretty much, you know? And suddenly I'm hanging out with people and they're all gazillionaires, you know? And like, I'm best man at Ben's wedding, still his wedding, but you know, I can't afford to go. So, you know, I have to like, look, man, you know, can you front me a suit? you know yeah it turned out he got everybody's suits it was nice you know but uh so i can relate because it's a who has experience with that yeah you know and and it makes you think like geez i think i'm doing great but look at that motherfucker you know and uh there it is you know it's a quality problem trust me but it's it but it makes you take pause yeah so what what was the thing that told you to keep going?

26:58Well, I had the great good fortune of failing so miserably, you know, just living in your car a little bit, doing this and that, you know, that like, it's all gravy to me now. You know what I mean? Trust me. I've like had beautiful houses, lost beautiful house, you know, and in the moment you're like, well, when you take the long view, it's like, I am so lucky to get to do what I wanted to do. And at this point at my age, you know, which is basically like 107, you know, I'm just trying to get as much out there as I can and I can do that. But I, you know, I have no illusions that somebody is going to throw a Pulitzer at me, you know, or MacArthur Grant.

27:38I'm not in that world. I've always been sort of a outre character, you know, and as are most of my fans. It's like when my first book came out, publisher said the problem with you man is all your fans are shoplifters that's uh probably not the most uh astute observation but well it's not the best demo but i'll take it yeah yeah i mean yeah okay i get it and so were you like cool is the check clearing or not eventually yeah when i started getting the odd check or two yeah and then you know for a while they were throwing money at me you know you just never fucking know you know you get arrogant you think it's never gonna end And then you think, Jesus, I wish I'd have enjoyed it while I had it, you know, or saved a little.

28:20Yeah, I'm probably more introspective at the moment because, you know, I literally had just come from therapy before we started recording, you know, which, by the way, I tell everyone therapists are awesome. It's the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. And again, for the record, I still count myself an incredibly wealthy and privileged person in the state of the world. But it's the feeling like you're on. That's a given. You're a sensitive cat. of course. Yeah. But feeling like you're on the never ending hamster wheel, it becomes difficult to be like, do I get to take a breath soon? Or, you know.

28:53Yeah. It's hard to be grateful when you're running full tilt, nonstop uphill. Yeah. Do you feel like now, especially with this book, I mean, there's a bit more of like camaraderie and mentorship that you're kind of accidentally or maybe purposely projecting here. Do you feel like that's kind of where you're at now? not anything that ever crossed my mind. I mean, what makes the book interesting and kind of different is, yeah, it's a collection of old writing, but each piece has an intro talking about what was happening. And, you know, it's not all like, you know, this is not all world-class literature.

29:27You know, there's some bonehead prose in there, here and there. But what's funny about it, and to me different about it, because I've never seen a book like this, is I get to write about what was happening, you know, at that moment and what I was going through, what I thought I was doing, you know? And so that becomes sort of a meta thing, not to sound too pretentious. Yeah. And in effect, the worst pieces become the best pieces because those are the most entertaining when you read the intros, you know what I mean? Right. Which is why I included them, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, in a lot of ways, for me, it's my favorite kind of writing because context for me is everything, you know?

30:05Oh, that's a great way to put it, yeah. You know, and I feel like, yeah, okay, I know that this film had come out or this was going on or you had previously been through this or this, but now knowing that, I mean, again, that the theme of all this is this empathetic, you know, projection and connection that you have. Like, you know, I am curious, like, did you ever do any pieces with someone who knew they were as big of a deal? Like, you know, did the most interesting people you've met know they were as interesting as you thought they were? I think anybody who thinks they're interesting is generally someone you might not want to spend a whole lot of time talking to.

30:40But on the other hand, they are also the most fascinating. Years ago, I wrote an article. I invented this thing called Pronoia, about pronoids, people who think people are talking about them, are talking about them, and saying great, like Trump. Trump's a pronoid. He thinks people are talking about them, and they're saying great things. I mean, they threw away the mold after him. But before that, I think there is a type of person, but in a way, those are the best people to interview because it's fascinating. fascinating. It's just fascinating. You know, I interviewed, uh, for two minutes, I was going to do a book on Frank Zappa before I'd really done anything.

31:16And you know, I love the guy, love the guy, but he didn't seem to get out much. And he'd say, uh, you know that Reagan? Well, yeah. Epper has no clothes. I'm like, yeah. Okay. All right. There's an insight. Okay. Uh, all right. So let me just know. Underline. Is that C-L-O-T? Yeah. Okay. And you know, I didn't end up doing the book for a variety of reasons, but you know, the people who think they're geniuses are the funniest people in the world. Yeah. Whether, you know, they know it or not. It's a different issue. Yeah. And this is not a knock on it. I love him and I love his music, but it was an odd thing.

31:55That's all. Yeah. I mean, do you believe people should meet their heroes? Sure. Why not? Yeah. Well, I guess you have more of a multi-dimensional understanding of people now, it sounds like. Who knows? But when it comes to heroes, if I'm in a room with a hero, I don't introduce myself. I literally have nothing to say. What am I going to say? I love your work. I mean, I'm too shy. I mean, I'm just too... You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, who are your heroes then? Well, I'd like to meet people in context. Fair. like i i had a nice bit of like i was fired from twin peaks right yeah when i for you know i was the last man not to have a computer my script had blood and hair on it and uh i was fired years later he hired me to be in uh at a small role in uh inland empire oh um justin theroux got me the part i played his agent and you know to meet lynch then in context is great because he's a hero, but you have a reason to be there.

32:56But if I had seen him at a restaurant or an airport or something, I would just leave him alone because I'm just, what am I going to do? Well, okay. Yes, I entirely agree with that. I think, you know, when someone is in a private citizen moment, let them, you know, experience that moment. But, you know, I will say if you get to, I don't know, there's a handful of musicians I've met. And when I've tried to share with them at the right moment, the importance of their work, usually it gives them a tiny bit of gas. But damn, I mean, Lynch, that's a mind that like, I mean, I would have done anything to just see an expose on that.

33:33Sure. And I ran into Larry Charles once and I happened to be collaborating with his former partner, Larry, not Larry Charles, Larry David, I ran into. I was working with Larry Charles, great guy, funniest motherfucker in the world. But I ran, I saw Larry Charles, like a park, Larry, all these Larrys, Larry Dave in the parking lot. And I, and I didn't want to go up to my wife's time. So you got to say something. You got to say, I'm like, nah, I don't think like, you know, you got, and you know, when somebody's goading you, you don't want to look like a, you know, Howard. And he just, he literally just looked at me.

34:05I said, yeah, man, I, I, you know, normally I don't do this, but I'm, I'm working with like one of your best friends. And he, he's always talking. I could just. Did his composure change? No, he ignored me. I felt like an idiot. I'm so sorry. I literally, my testicles ascended to my lungs. I mean, I was so mortified. Yeah. But you know, it's on me. You know, what did I expect? That he's going to pat me on the head? I mean, you know. I think that - This guy's a colossus. That's got to be an outlier with an individual like them that is, that are so, I don't know. I mean, you could - Because I don't approach a lot of people.

34:42Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. I mean, what's your policy? You go up and you give them the gas. Yeah, I guess. I think my policy is if there is a moment that it looks like, you know, like I try to read someone's body language. Like if they look flustered or they're moving with a purpose, you know, like they're trying to do something or if it's like at an airport or anything, I won't do it. But if it looks like that, they wouldn't be unwelcome to it, you know, I have. Who is your biggest, one of your biggest musical idols? Tom York. Okay, so if you were peeing next to Tom York at an airport urinal, would you look over and say, hey, Tom, I just want you to know?

35:20How's your prostate, bro? I got to do math problems to get started over here. What do you do? What's your mistake? Mind if I turn on the tap? Yeah. Sure. You know, you relate to them where they live. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm right with you. Tom York. Oh, my God. Yeah, sure. Yeah, but I would never approach anyone in a restroom because we're already revealing a part of ourselves that we usually keep covered publicly. I know, yeah. Yeah. I learned the hard way. I mean, there was a period when I would thrust my book at people. So, yeah, here, so we're on an equal footing. And I'm just like, yeah, okay.

35:59Like I had given them a fucking Jehovah's Witness circular. So I learned quickly, nobody cares. I, when I first moved to New York, I was at a really overpriced gym because I lived in a crappy apartment with this old jazz musician. And I wanted like a sick shower and a place to like work out, whatever. That's why I joined the Y for the shower. Yeah. And my friend was like, he's like, you know what you should do? He's like, you can get a free month at Reebok Sports Club and, you know, in like Columbus Circle or whatever. And I was like, oh, okay. That's very cagey. Yeah. And he's like, you can go there, you can sign up and you'll get a free month and then you can cancel afterwards.

36:40And I was like, fuck yeah. And so I went and I did it. Now I'm like 20, 21, maybe at the time, because I think I moved, I was like 19 when I moved to New York. And I go in this, you know, the room and there's, you know, I'm changing. And as a person who grew up, you know, relatively, I don't know, somewhat sheltered, I guess, in the Midwest, I was not used to going to gyms where you saw people just cruising around naked, right? and i'm like okay a jailhouse style shower where it was like a giant pardon the expression stall you didn't have it yeah i mean well they had that but i was gonna go in the hot tub and i had a i had a swimsuit on but i noticed everyone that was getting in the hot tub didn't have a swimsuit and in walks uh tony danza and okay tony danza i'm sitting in the hot tub and TD comes in, you know, takes his towel off and just jumps in the, well, it doesn't jump, but, you know, gets in the hot tub and he's having a moment to himself.

37:41And I'm like, do I fucking say something? I mean, he's naked. Like, what do I do here? And then I'm like, what do I do? And I'm like, so I called my mom later and I was like, mom, I saw Tony Danza's dick. You said dick. You have a special relationship with your mom. Yeah, I think I got in a weird situation when I got older. I felt like if I cursed, I was cooler, you know, this cursing Again, there's talking about a man's dick to your mom. I mean, that's next level cursing. But no touche about it. I'm expressing admiration. Yeah, but so I told her and she was like, that's great, Jeremy. I was like, all right, love you.

38:15See you later. No questions asked. Yeah, well, good for her. That's Midwest right there. Yeah. No intrusive questions. Yeah, it was very, it was somewhat strange. Where in the Midwest were you? Why do I think St. Louis? Because you're right. Right. I knew that. You're correct. Yes. Yeah, I'm in St. Louis. Are you there now? I am, yeah. Basically, I used to live in New York from like, what, oh, three or four to late 2020. Moved here and then I commute to New York once a month. So it's like a 90 minute flight. It's pretty quick. And then I'm in LA a few times a year. Do you have childhood friends in St.

38:52Louis? I do. We're in very different life situations, I think. Do people understand the life you're leading? because yeah i think there's an allure where it looks like i'm like hanging with celebrities i mean it's pretty glamorous what you do i mean from the outside i i know the reality but yeah uh so there's stuff like that but i i would say um it's probably been a poor effort on my part because i'm like you know to make friends as an adult with other adults you know it's pretty rare because you're like, other than maybe both liking the same TV show or band, you don't have as much common ground versus like the shared trauma of youth.

39:34Yeah. I mean, I read this article in the New York Times that most American men over 40 have like one friend, you know? Yeah. Like, like, what do you do on your perfect day? Like you. On my perfect day? You know, man, I just write all the time. I mean, I'm a very boring cat. You know, I walk the dogs and, you know, my kids, you know, I have two daughters not living here. And, you know, you would be alarmed at how boring. You know, I try to stay physical and work out, do Qigong, and just sit there and try to crank it out. Because, you know, I feel like something's, at my age, something's in the mail, you know.

40:15You don't know what it is, but it's never good. And it's going to get here. so I might as well type as fast as I can as I'm flying over the cliff, you know? Well, I mean, out of curiosity, like, you've accomplished so much. Are you writing for yourself now or are you writing for work? Yeah, I wouldn't, I mean, it's just writing, you know? I mean, I have gigs. There's some stuff going on. You know, I do some rewrite gigs and this and that. As you would say, to keep the insurance. But pretty much, I'm just writing. Like, I have a novel coming out early next year. Okay. Yeah. So you're going to be on press for a long time then.

40:51We'll see. You know, who knows? You know, who knows? You know, I'm not, you know, they're not throwing me on Good Morning America, but I'm on the cool shit like you, which is much, you know, much, much closer to my own heart, you know? Yeah. It is strange now. I'm sure you've seen the evolution or de-evolution of media where now, you know, when I had started my podcast it was like pulling teeth to try to just sell the the medium to people and now yeah oh yeah because people are like 10 years ago huh yeah they would be like well sorry we're more focused on like traditional print or they'd be like well wait you talk about like clothes or stuff and i'm like well not really and they're like but isn't isn't it visual and i'm like but you don't fucking get it like nobody gives a shit about a sweater here but people care more about the person who has it on than the fucking garment themselves like you know but you i mean i i've heard enough of your podcast to know you can i mean uh you you and uh oliver platt like chopping it up was a japanese and persimmon and all i didn't even understand half the shit you were talking about you know you were you were very i learned a lot about fashion that's for sure you know i mean i've worn the same thing for i've worn the same thing for like like i found my cliche and I stick to it.

42:07You know, it's like black t-shirt, black jeans. That's it for me, pretty much. What are the jeans you wear? I used to wear G-Star Raw. Okay. So, because my wife is very cagey and used to do British, British Mexican Jew, weirdly. Okay. And, but she came over when she was 17 and did like, was a stylist at MTV, back with MTV. So, but anyway, I, she re-dyes my pants. So it's like, I have a whole new wardrobe because they fit, they're great. And I don't have to go shopping, which I do not love doing, you know? So wait, so you're wearing your pants so much that they fade and then your lovely wife. Because I have like a couple of pairs, you know, I don't have a vest, you know, I have a bunch of versions of the same shit and there's one or two, you know how it is that really fits you great or a couple of black t-shirts that hang right.

42:53And you know, over and out. Do you know who's a big clothing guy who may not even realize he is, is your buddy Marin. He wears a ton of iron heart. Oh, he, he's listen. I mean, how many of us have handmade jeans for christ's sake but you know what i tried to turn you on to that stuff i threw in g star to kind of up my game a little bit because really the jeans i wear every day are from target but that was when you could still shop a target you weren't supporting like anti you know anti everything i know i mean what's left i'm so basic you know what i mean what what shoes you wear every day uh i have some funky old tennis shoes.

43:34I think they're, what is the name? I'm not going to get up and go. There's some brand that are comfortable for walking around. But I have Converse. Those are my go-tos if I have to wear tennis shoes. Do you say tennis shoes or sneakers? What do you say? You know what's funny? I say tennis shoes. Yeah, me too. That's a Midwest thing, I think. It's like pop. I think so. It's like pop instead of soda. Yeah. You know, the best thing that's happened with footwear is you can wear, you can wear like Chuck Taylors and Jack Purcells and all in vans and stuff because now they got those like little comfy foam insoles.

44:10Exactly. And it's, it's, it's fucking unreal. I know. I mean, Converse used to be punishing. It was like having a chunk of concrete in your shoe. Yeah. It was, it was horrendous and now yeah i got those little those little first strings and uh you i got my little foam insole yeah i feel like a million bucks no it's great walking on air yeah because you know you're you're this these are your pre-arthritis years so you know enjoy right uh yeah um last question what's a record that you that has never left your rotation never left my rotation uh i think uh rock and roll animal lou reed i think uh oh maybe get your ya-ya's out uh i think uh love supreme definitely love love supreme uh i mean i even like like stan gets you know i like all kind of jazz you know and uh i'm i'm sure i'm blanking on something but you know a lot a lot of hardcore you know i love albert eiler you know a lot of them are wild outside jazz cats and uh Yeah.

45:17You know, your Tom Yorks, your Bowie's, you know, basics. Like I say, you know, man of simple taste. Yeah. Well, Jerry, huge, huge honor to chat with you. Oh, it was the best. Thank you again for everything. It was a pleasure to meet you. Likewise.

45:38All right. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for hanging out. Support the people making good stuff. Wear what you like. Enjoy yourself. I'll talk to you next week. you