Raging Bull with David Krumholtz

14:21David Sims:I have truly heard this. We have friends who were at a cinema con where they showed off a large chunk of it and people were like elevating. Yeah. Yes. It's, it's, it's. Levitating. I think it's the darkest of the dark horses for Oscars. Well, well, well.

14:34Griffin Newman:They called him Mr. Irrelevant and yet. Michael Shannon's in it, right? Playing Bill Parcells. Michael Shannon is playing Bill Parcells. That is, that is casting that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Bill's a real. And I have a little sneaky, funny, good role in it. What are you playing at? None of your business. No, I play... Shut the fuck up. So it... What's into you? Are you trying to blow my campaign? So it's about the New York Giants. New York Giants in 1983. They had an equipment manager who was with them for at least 30 years, I think, named Whitey. Sure. Whitey. Good. And, you know, the chance to play a Whitey for me...

15:07You need one, finally, in there. One in your camp. Yeah. And so Whitey had retired and was kind of listless. they have this young player who gets diagnosed with you know questionably survivable cancer is likely gonna croak it's awful it's tragic he's 21 or 22 years old and uh they call they decide the nfl and the giants decide to do everything they possibly can to save this kid's life to try and uh pay for it all and they call whitey and they go what are you doing he's like i'm missing you know i'm missing the uh the action of being part of the team and they go how about you will you drive this kid to all his appointments so this older man who's retired becomes this kid's chauffeur and watches him slowly die that's a good part it's a

16:06Griffin Newman:good part um i enjoyed myself bill parcells uh you know what they called him griff mr relevant no the big tuna one of the one of the great sports names of all time why did he get that in hand i'm not really sure where the name came from uh famously bill's heart bill parcells looked a lot like my dad and people would mistake my dad for bill parcells who was see that looking at very famous like you know when i was a kid like he was the coach of the giants and then he was the Didn't he, wasn't he the coach of the Jets for a minute? He was.

16:35David Sims:Yeah, he was a New York figure. This was my father, of course, New York in the 80s with Howie Mandel. People thought your father looked like Howie Mandel.

16:43Griffin Newman:His father, you know, when his dad had the curly hair and Howie had the curly hair. I can see. We will post on social media.

16:50David Sims:Hello. Over the head. Over the head. We will post on social media the side-by-side of Howie Mandel in this era and my father. But people would kind of raging bull style be like, Hey, Mandel, you big-timing me? Wow. Oh, you think you're too good for your fans, Mandel? You know who my dad looked like? Who? Son of Sam. David Berkowitz. That's a good one. And literally was from Queens, lived in the same neighborhood. Good timing. And dogs talked to him. And David Berkowitz was a mailman, and so was my dad. No. Yeah, the only difference was that Berkowitz had blue eyes and my dad had brown. I can think of one other difference.

17:22Griffin Newman:And also, he didn't commit murder. Well, there's that. That's the difference I was thinking about. How good a mailman was David Berkowitz? Bad. I have to imagine that. I can't imagine that. I can't imagine he was very good. I probably ate the letters, right? I don't know if he was a paper eater. I have recurring dreams, coincidentally, in which I'm pulling large pieces. I'm in public in a situation where I need to talk to people. Yeah. And in the dreams, I'm pulling endless amounts of paper, chewed up paper out of my mouth. Oh, it's in there already. It's in there already. And I have to stop. And they're very vivid, realistic dreams.

17:59I have to stop and pull paper out of, in between my teeth, out of my throat. Oh. And then I looked up like what those mean. And I think they said something like, you know, obviously they're anxiety dreams, but something to the, like you have something you need to get off your chest.

18:16Griffin Newman:Something unspoken. Yeah.

18:17David Sims:You need to read what's on the paper. That's the answer. That's how you resolve the dreams. Well, it's all chewed up, man. It's all bits of paper. Unfold it, piece it back together, take a blow dryer. We're talking about mulch. We're talking about moach. But in Inception, you know, that's, you always, right?

18:32Griffin Newman:Like, that's, it's like, you always have to find, like, the weird papers in your dream. And that's, like, where the secret is. Right.

18:37David Sims:And that's how you come up with a great idea to retire and let someone else run your dad's business. You worked with Chris Nolan.

18:42Griffin Newman:You should text him every time you have a weird dream being like, hey, Inception guy. Explain this dream. You do this? I don't have any way of contacting Chris. Well, because he doesn't have a goddamn phone, right? He's smarter than anyone. Well, beyond that, I don't think Chris would want to. Oh, you gave a phenomenal performance. I don't think that matters to him or me, to be honest with you. I just think it would be funny if it's like when you know a doctor. Yeah. And you're like, hey, look at this mole. Or, you know, like, hey, Chris, you did Inception. What's this dream mean anyway? You must love people's weird dreams.

19:15Griffin Newman:Right. Yeah. Yeah. David Krumholtz is here. David Krumholtz is here. Oh, yeah. Okay.

19:20David Sims:The last time we were on the show, we talked about Sensible Woman, who is, you know, we're talking the other giant of this era.

19:27Griffin Newman:Well, he's talking the other best actor. Yes. You know, Pacino's best actor trophy, and this is De Niro's best actor trophy. Yes. I wouldn't call Pacino the only other giant. I think there's a triumvirate. You're right. Who's the third? Hoffman.

19:42David Sims:Yeah. Of that era. Of that era. Those are the three guys who are chasing each other. Those are the three, and they're rewriting the rules of acting. Yes.

19:50Griffin Newman:And they're three guys who I feel like a generation prior Hollywood would have been like, well, you're not a movie star. You don't have the look of a movie star. They look like a butcher. They are ethnic American. Ethnic. They're small. They're handsome, but they got kind of funny faces. They're not conventional. Do they make those movies? Do they make, well, maybe The Graduate, but do they make Midnight Cowboy, Raging Bull, and let's say Serpico today? Not really. Or Dog Day, yeah. They don't. Raging Bull's the closest in that Hollywood will still respond to it. Because it's a boxing movie. Yeah.

20:27Griffin Newman:Right. And like a true story, real person movie. What is it? Serpico? Maybe. That feels like a TV show.

20:35David Sims:It definitely is a TV show. The answer is that all three of those things would be TV shows now. Which is a shame. Yeah. I think there is sort of like a Mount Rushmore of the male acting performances, the leading male performances that people like lose their minds over that are sort of held up as the highest. Indelible. Right. So Santa Fe Woman is number one. Scent of a Woman's number one. Number two is Scent of a Woman, Chris O'Donnell. Right. That's right. Yes. No, I think it's like, it's Raging Bull. Sure. It's Raging Bull for sure. That's the first one. I think it's if you combine the two Godfather Pacino performances.

21:11David Sims:Sure. Right? Or you can pick either one. No, definitely not. You're way off now. Really? Yeah, you're getting crazy now. What do you think? Jimmy Stewart and It's a Wonderful Life. Well, that's quite a good performance. Yeah. I think Denzel and Malcolm X is in it. Denzel, Malcolm X. Yes. absolutely are we talking streetcar are we talking on the waterfront for Brando you know you kind of have to put Brando I think you kind of have to but I'm going to go hmm God almighty I'm going to go Nicholson Cuckoo's Nest Jack is sort of outside you know because he's not an ethnic American he's straight down the middle he's straight down the middle no

21:46Griffin Newman:yeah that's true what is in fact what is Jack Nicholson isn't he Irish I don't know

21:51David Sims:yeah I would imagine

21:52Griffin Newman:yes New Jersey's on mm-hmm but we're not here to talk about Jack McPherson. We're not. No. Irish, German, English, and Welsh descent.

22:01David Sims:There you go. This is still a performance that people use as shorthand. Oh, 100%. I think this is the number one. Yes. You know? I saw this film when I was 21 for the first time. Mm-hmm. It changed everything for me because up until that point, I had only really wanted to do comedy, do comedy, done comedy. uh there was no i or or you know cartoonish character shit suddenly i watched this film and thought i could do that i don't know how but if i just try you want to do that like trying the goal has changed to do that yeah if i could do 10 of the immersion and the intimacy and the intensity of what De Niro did in Raging Bull, if I could do 10%, I would get dramatic jobs.

22:55The intimacy thing is fascinating. It's just an outrageously monolithic performance. It's arguably the greatest lead performance ever. That is very arguable.

23:10David Sims:I think, I mean... No one's going to call you crazy for saying that. Certainly not. It's a reasonable opinion.

23:15Griffin Newman:I also think it's something where you, I have the experience of like, I watched this film. I was very struck by it as a young man or, you know, like obviously it's a totemic film and that's a top. And then you sort of were a featherweight. I've never been a featherweight. I'm sorry. I hit this height when I was 13. I've always been a big boy. Yeah. And then you, you know, you have a few years from it and you're like, Oh, but isn't that, it's just him screaming and yelling, isn't it? Then you watch the movie again. You're like, I forgot how good this movie is. And I forgot how it's not whatever the stereotype you might have.

23:49Griffin Newman:I think intimacy is the word. You said it.

23:51David Sims:That's the magic factor. It's the volcanic stuff. Let me bring my bantamweight perspective to this. Perfect. Goddammit. The sound editing in this film is a new roadmap suddenly for all sound editing going forward. the intimacy of the sound of that film there is no film that sounds like raging bull to this day there are attempts but there so you are as an audience member being whispered to you're being shouted at they're speaking to your soul it's it's it brilliant sound editing do you know the thing that so much of it by the way is adr clearly yes oh yes but that marty drove everyone crazy because he insisted that every punch every flash bulb be a unique sound that they not repeat any specific sounds which a lot of it's like foley work and it's over the top in a certain way and the context you know when he's in miami with at his house and he asks the photographer to take a picture that they could pay for us for us get in here sweetheart and they surround him and the moment the first flash goes off you hear one of his children scream yeah you're oh my god just whatever standard film had come to just scorsese manipulating the shit out of what was before to create something incredibly profound and new i'm gonna i'm gonna I'm going to go even one higher than you.

25:31David Sims:I think this movie is very well directed. When I was watching it, I said, who is the Scorsese kid? Yes. And Chapman. Chapman. His DP. Yes. There's not a frame in this movie that isn't a painting.

25:47Griffin Newman:It didn't win the Oscar, which it's, you know, the Oscars are not the end of the world. But it's shocking. Yeah, for cinematography. What did? Tess, the Polanski film, which I'm sure Jeffrey Unsworth, like I'm sure had gorgeous vistas of the Moors, right? You know, like that is my dim memory, a pretty movie. But this is one of those things where one, you can show five seconds of Raging Bull in some clip package. Yeah. As you see all the time in these kind of De Niro, or, you know, you'll see him rolled out at award shows or on TV. And you're just, you lean forward. And any shot. I cannot believe how this movie.

26:26Griffin Newman:An insert shot would get that response. Why black and white? Do we have theories? Oh, we can talk about it. I'm sure that'll be in the research because I think there was a lot of reasons for the black and white. And just, no one's made a sports movie look this good. I know it's reductive to call it a sports movie. But no one's made boxing look like this ever again. And just with the smoke and just that you're in his mind in there. Well, yeah. And theater of it and sort of just the slaughterhouse of it. What were you going to say? No, the contrast of how beautifully lit, almost theatrically lit, the boxing matches are with the crudeness of how the rest of it is.

27:07Yes. The natural light through it all. Yeah. It's just.

27:13David Sims:Well, the key to this movie is, you know, Marty said, I don't want to do this. I don't get this. And De Niro kept on insisting. We'll get into this in depth. But then he finally figured out. He was like, oh, boxing's a metaphor. Boxing doesn't matter. I can't think of this as a boxing movie. It's about getting in the ring. It's about whatever that thing is in your life. And let's face it, Scorsese doesn't need to be directed with. But this is the movie where he lets De Niro sort of direct. They're collaborating. They're clearly, this is a 50-50 job. Yes. In fact, I can open the dossier. The trust is through the roof.

27:49What is required of De Niro? see i'm now i'm gonna watch behold as i marry this into a discussion about ai okay let's do it what's required i could have done this movie we agree what's required of de niro is this genuine raw soul searching sort of an access that he is displaying to his own emotional nuance his his the the complicated levels of who de niro is as a person who an actor should be as a person right someone who emulates humanity in nuanced fashion that arguably no actor before after had and to give of that to bear himself raw he had to have trained mentally for this not just physically right and you know that this is all stuff you know as an audience member and two different physical states and two different

28:44David Sims:physical states one misshapen yes which is also two different mental states married to those yeah and the confidence the nero's confidence who's 36 at this point when he makes this movie that's disgusting he's playing a 19 year old though yes right right essentially at the beginning yeah um it's through the roof and the uniqueness of de niro that he has to face and live with the burden of de niro's uniqueness applied to the uniqueness of jake la mater and there is no way and you know this watching it there is no way that de niro is not in some sort of existential pain playing this character yes and also there's something clearly that drew him to it correct that He needed two X-Rex.

29:35David Sims:He couldn't really shake. This role is a sacrifice and a half that he's, and he's giving. It's giving. It's constantly giving. Now, you have to be human to understand the true depth of not only the performance, but of the film. You have to be. Right? Now, here's where I married into AI. Let's do it. Who on, would you, you don't want to watch an AI basketball game, do you? Why would anyone? Why do we watch sports? Talk to us to it.

30:02Griffin Newman:Right. Yeah. It's a lot of sports because it's human beings, which we are doing what we can't do. Okay. You cannot expect AI to make an impact with audiences in a way that film can. Film, I mean, real, I should say real people can't, humans can't on film because the audience is human. Everybody's talking about when they have these arguments about AI, they go, you know, well what's the difference between a human actor and an ai actor and an ai will learn from me from what humans do everyone discounts the audience the audience is human it can only empathize with humanity well and that's the challenge of raging bull is like it's not like i want you to understand that jake lamotta is a good guy or even that jake lamotta is sympathetic in a way of like you know here's why he behaved this way it's not a like don't you understand jake lamotta just had a And that's why he was such a piece of shit.

31:02Griffin Newman:It's not that. It's more just you need to look at this darkness. He existed. This exists. This is part of the human existence. Right. And understand the nightmare of the human spectrum that he was on and that there's something to relate to, which is true taxi driver too. That makes it all the more compelling. Like, you know, that you're like, there's something to relate to even though he's a fairly despicable person pretty much all the time.

31:26David Sims:And also that there's like a sacrifice here, not just in the characters, but in the making of this movie that is a thing that AI can never experience. I mean, this is, the conversation right now, I just think it's like, it was such a good fucking knockout punch is just like everyone flipping their shit over the Odyssey. Everyone circles back to the same thing, which is like, this looked really difficult to make. Sure. This was not easy and I'm appreciating the sacrifice and the effort of this and I want to see it on the biggest screen. And it's like, that's a fucking knockout punch. uh the people who want to watch ai shit don't want to pay for it's not just ai it's also just

32:03Griffin Newman:you know the the years we went through people being like eh no one wants the movie experience anymore you know like that that's being refuted is is is lovely uh you know scorsese is not an insular filmmaker right he's referential but so many you know because well because he himself is a cinema expert right but so many filmmakers make movies quote unquote they say this for themselves and you've got to make the movie for yourself be happy with it and then the audience will love it no scorsese goes i'm the audience for my own film i am all kinds of versions of that audience i am the highfalutin highbrow erudite guy sitting in the back row and i'm also the kid in the front row right and what can satisfy everyone and he's anticipating how the audience will feel and he's felt literally framing shots and directing scenes from that perspective the greatest trick that scorsese pulls in this film is challenging the audience like what in the world are they supposed to be feeling yeah you know taxi driver is a straight drama yeah right Okay, now this movie, it's a brutal comedy.

33:20It's a funny tragedy. It's so many things in stark contrast. It's comedy, love, family, bonds, violence, paranoia, sympathy, rage, disgust, sorrow, horror, peace, triumph, success, ego, tranquility, the burden of ambition. you know and ultimately it's the story it's exactly what it should be which is the story of one life to tell a story about the pugilistic nature of all lives and all life yeah and just it's it what an what an undertaking and if he fucks it up and he didn't even think he should make the movie yes and if he fucks this up people are come out of the theater going that director is a psychotic person.

34:09Griffin Newman:And his career is a... Or close to it, because his career is already in a little bit of trouble, and it's sort of like, you know, why do you do that? I think the fact that he doesn't really care about sports, which he's very upfront about, matters a lot in the movie, too, because I like sports movies. Like, I like a schematic sports movie just fine. Like, I enjoy an underdog story. I enjoy this shit. But, you know, so many sports movies lock into, like, okay, well, we need to see where he initially succeeded, and then he was brought low with this battle. And like his biggest triumph in this movie in the ring is like grinning like a freak at Sugar Ray Robinson.

34:44Griffin Newman:He didn't knock me down. Yeah. Sugar Ray Robinson's just like, what? Okay. That's not a win. Right. And it's just like. You literally lost. That he's so separated from whatever the point of boxing is at that moment in life. And like at no point is there like the scene where someone's like, you did it. Here's the belt. like you know like the arc of his career is this sort of like just this dim noise in the movie at best i also think there's a core he buys a building at one point yeah and they're like from fights and he's like and you're like jesus he's a fucking landlord like this guy uh he can't be served a

35:22David Sims:steak without having a panic attack i also i think the core thing this movie is about in a lot of ways is like the thing you're great at being a detriment to every other aspect of your life everything that makes him a good boxer well if your ego it's also about ego danger yes if you don't have emotional intelligence correct yes if you're not in conversation with yourself yeah because he's a fighter yes that's a great fighter right who is able to piece together a pretty normal life on paper on right he's got the kids he's got the family yeah that's a big thing but he becomes a clown. Yes. He becomes more than just an actual comedian slash clown.

36:05His life is clownish.

36:07David Sims:Yes. His whole life. Yeah.

36:18David.

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37:20David Sims:I'm going to open the dossier to tell you some stuff about this. Can I just ask you one quick question before you open it? Go ahead. Did you fuck my wife? Yes. Thank you. Okay, I appreciate that's the answer.

37:29Griffin Newman:I fucked your wife. I fucked your brother. I fucked you. Whatever. Scorsese in the later half of the 70s is doing a lot of stuff. We addressed this to some extent on prior episodes. On top of the last Waltz in New York, New York. He even worked on a Broadway show called The Act with Liza Minnelli, who he was having an affair with at the time. He had no idea what he was doing. He was sort of soft fired, more kind of like he agreed to step aside and let an experienced Broadway hand come in to kind of, quote unquote, fix things. He was also having a very sexually charged affair with cocaine, the drug.

38:03Griffin Newman:He was doing a lot of drugs. Yes. In 1977, he goes to the Telluride Film Festival, which is very early, to present an award to Michael Powell, one of his heroes, the great British director. and Michael Powell says to him, like, my dear boy, what are you doing here? Aren't you working on a play? And Scorsese's like, that's when I realized, like, I was not cut out for theater. I didn't understand. Like, you know. At this point, he wants to make Gangs of New York. That's going to take him a second, obviously. A little bit of time. He makes American Boy, which we discussed in our Scorsese short episode.

38:38Griffin Newman:It's fascinating. The profile of Stephen Prince.

38:40David Sims:Have you ever seen that, Crumman? No. It's very good. You would be intrigued by it. You would be very intrigued by it. Okay. It's just him interviewing a guy who's got insane stories. And the adrenaline shot back from the dead from Pulp Fiction is stolen from that movie. That is true. That's a story he tells.

38:55Griffin Newman:Yes. Wow. And he's got Raging Bull, which is a movie he doesn't want to do, but De Niro has basically been trying to get him to do since 1974. He came to him on the set of Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore and said, read this book by Jake LaMotta. I've like optioned it. There's some good scenes. He's an interesting character. De Niro, who is obviously a tough interview in that when you ask him, like, why did you do Raging Bull? He's like, I don't know. It was interesting. You know, like he's just, but he says, like, I like the book because I thought it had some good scenes to repeat this. A good scene is something that you think has a lot of dramatic possibilities and irony and humor and something that people can relate to.

39:36Griffin Newman:It's a very simple and bland statement, but you can imagine, I guess, De Niro just reading the book and being like, well, this scenario is something I can play out in my head as something that would be

39:46David Sims:very dramatically compelling. And even talking back to the sort of point of getting in this character's head and this sort of spiritual connection he was feeling, he like admits when he reads it, the book is poorly written. Yes, even De Niro admits this. This book is bad, but... Scorsese does not like the book. It's like a portal into this guy's brain. Like even I think the failings of the writing are telling him something as an actor that someone's going to have to process dramatically into something that works as a story. But he's seeing the scenes and he's seeing the way this guy's brain works.

40:16De Niro. Robert. Robert De Niro. Is the Joe DiMaggio of acting.

40:23Griffin Newman:Break this down. Please explain. Joe DiMaggio had an amazing reputation for doing incredible things on the field, athletic things. Right. But making them look easy. Sure. To the point. De Niro is simple. Yeah. He is not deliberate. Yeah. I don't think there are any firm choices in his style. I think he goes, he lives in the moment, and accesses whatever is necessary to tell the story. If any strategy goes into that, I'm sure there's some. And of course, extreme emotional intellect. Yes. Extreme. But hyper-subtle. But it's natural. Yeah. There's a nature to De Niro that acting wasn't allowed to have.

41:08Yes. Especially on film up until really until he came on the scene. You weren't. And maybe Brando, you could argue, but even Brando's a little like, you know, making deliberate choices and speechifying. And you could almost say that Brando sort of had to fit the mold because he would have been so far ahead of his time that no one would have understood him. He wouldn't have worked.

41:29David Sims:He needs to have one foot in the style of film at the time. But Brando now has laid the groundwork for De Niro to be as naturally simplistic, but also acrobatic. And also, yes. As any actor had ever been. And I don't think there's been an actor since. Very few. It's hard to, I think there are people maybe who have gotten into that realm in a singular performance or in a brief period. I don't think there's someone who has a body of work that embodies what you're saying in the same way. I also think that he has always been so mysterious about his process for how much this is known as, you know, the Great Sacrifice movie and the physical transformation movie and all of that.

42:16The built-in inherent mystique of De Niro. Right. Where's this coming from? That he's this shape-shifting guy who then, he avoids interviews. He doesn't want to talk about what acting is. He has a reputation for being— The interviews he does are notably bad. Right. He has a reputation for being very quiet on set, not saying much, being a quiet person. Yes. Ooh.

42:37David Sims:And compare this to... Spooky. Pacino and Hoffman, who are incredible, but we know the legends of what they went through and what they were thinking and how they strategized their roles. Right. And here he is, and he's reading this book, and he goes like, Hey, Marty, this is bad. We should make this movie. And you're like, why? And he's like, I don't know. I want to play this guy.

42:55Griffin Newman:One thing... Well, I think there's two times, because The Irishman is another situation where De Niro keeps coming to Marty being like, I just think this would be interesting. And Marty's like, I don't get it. I know this guy. And it takes him a while. Right. Marty doesn't like that the book says that there's, in the book, they kind of try to rationalize everything Jake did. Like, there's always a reason for the violence for what he did, which Scorsese is just uninterested in. He also is like, cinematically, I didn't like boxing because the boxing shit we would see as a kid, either filmed fights that maybe would be projected in a movie theater or movies, would be from like one angle.

43:30Griffin Newman:Camera all the way to the back of the stands. It was boring. Right. But he agrees with De Niro. There are incidents in the book that are interesting. Right. Like he can see that. Marduk Martin, who had already worked with Scorsese on Who's That Knocked On My Door, and Mean Streets, and New York, New York, and The Last Waltz, is handed the book. Marty's kind of like I don't know if I want to do this but you know here we go he calls Jake LaMotta this the bull in the china shop he's cursed because he's so macho but he's so fragile about women right just takes a woman essentially like looking at him weird for him to completely collapse and become an insane you know violent aggressive you know it's like you can tell how insecure he is right he writes a draft he integrates some things that Marty maybe wants about his family like there's something about a fig tree in Staten Island that is like grandfather had.

44:22Griffin Newman:De Niro is like, I fucking hate this. Like this isn't what I'm going for at all. So then they hand it to Paul Schrader, who obviously had already worked on taxi driver and who has a very deep understanding. I feel like about male fragility. Broken man. Right. And at one point, um, Marty's like, let's do it as a play. They think about that. It's a bad idea. De Niro's getting increasingly mad New York, New York comes out to bad reviews Kind of the first time Marty's just gotten bad reviews Like people are just like thumbs down And same to De Niro That's true Scorsese's marriage to Julia Cameron Has just collapsed You know He's feeling very disillusioned about everything He's using a lot of drugs Scorsese thinks basically That he wanted to die He's just kind of like pushing it to its limit and he kind of hits a brick wall.

45:14Griffin Newman:1978, he says, September 1978. After Telluride, after the play collapses, he's hospitalized. He spends four days in the hospital.

45:25David Sims:Is this the heart attack?

45:26Griffin Newman:Yes. He physically collapses. He's hovering between life and death, according to him. De Niro comes to see him. They talk very openly about everything he's going through. The official charge is internal bleeding. Okay. Or the official thing on the chart. Damn. You have to be doing a lot of drugs. It's just completely devastating. And he's fragile.

45:46David Sims:He's a tiny asthmatic man.

45:47Griffin Newman:Right. Yeah, true. Sure. And I met him. Marty. Fairly recently. Recently. And I can attest to his tininess. He's very small. He's very small. But he's energetic. I had a fortunately brief and pointless conversation with him. About the weather? I didn't know what to say to him. It was a very strange circumstance. I'm not going to get into the whole story. But I was sitting almost directly across from him at a dinner, at a luncheon table. Oddly, sitting also next to F. Murray Abraham. Neither of us knew why we were invited to this thing. But it was our big, grand, you know, meeting with him. F. Murray had never met him.

46:34That's kind of wild. And so he's 80. F. Murray's 80. He's sitting there and I don't know what to say to him. And an introduction from his casting director goes poorly. In other words, she says, hey, Marty, this is David Krummel. He's a tremendous actor. And he doesn't hear it, literally doesn't hear that. That's tough. And she doesn't try again. And so I'm thinking I should say something. And he starts talking about styles of Chinese food.

47:03Griffin Newman:Okay. Like Sichuan, Hunan. And he says that he, in his opinion, Szechuan is the best. We're not talking about favorites. He's simply saying empirically that Szechuan is the best Chinese food. I disagree. And I say, for me, it's Cantonese. Classic sort of old school New York Chinese. And he says, Cantonese? Really? And I say, yes. I feel like it's because it's, you know, very New Yorky and whatever. And he looks at me like I'm a moron. and switches the subject to something else. I had ruined the train of thought. And that was it. That's the whole, my whole interaction with Martin Scorsese is that we disagreed on the best Chinese food style and he moved on from me in that moment.

47:53And you'll take it to the grave. Well, he'll get to his grave before I will. So I'll take it to his grave. Maybe I'll go visit his grave. Drop off some Cantonese. With, you know, some lobster Cantonese. Yeah. And that's with all due respect to one of the greatest filmmakers of all time. Right, of course.

48:12Griffin Newman:Whose movie we are, of course, discussing. I guess De Niro basically gets Marnie to agree to this in the hospital. Which is maybe a little bit pressurized, but whatever. Robbie Robertson, Scorsese's roommate at the time, which is a great person you want to be roommates with if you're trying to kick coke, right? And... Robbie Robertson says, I noticed Scorsese finally kind of got back the anger that always helps him work. Where it's like, I can't live without doing this. You know what I mean? He suddenly got his sort of, you know, his druthers. His motor back. Yes, right. Perhaps he himself was a raging bull.

48:51A bit of a raging bull. Crushed by ambition.

48:54Griffin Newman:Yes, he says that being brought low helped him understand a little bit more about the character. uh to he wanted to make a film about self-destructiveness obviously right like to sort of lay that bare he reviews the film as kind of a rehabilitation for himself he says i don't want to explain a person with like one freudian term i don't like let's take all that out so we're not going to make a movie about how like his dad was mean to him and that's why he's a piece of shit which is interesting too by the way so the the brotherly bond and And in the film, really, that is the only representation of family.

49:32Oddly, they never, if ever, really ever talk about their parents. We don't know why they both, what home they came from and why they're like this, these two brothers. Interesting.

49:43David Sims:I also think the brother had been minimized in the first two versions. In prior projects. Yes.

49:48Griffin Newman:It's interesting. Schrader, similarly, is not interested in this project. Yeah. He's trying to make American Gigolo. you know he's sort of transitioning to being you know more of a director director himself so it's like no one de niro is the engine like both scorsese and schrader are like i don't know you know they take schrader's script with paul's blessing to a caribbean island saint martin i believe and just work on it for weeks together they combine characters they rewrite the dialogue de niro if he's due credit on a script it's this one according to you know like like he's very involved. But neither of them submitted.

50:25Griffin Newman:So they didn't even attempt to get it. It's credited to Martin and Schrader.

50:29David Sims:Yeah. The other thing that gets changed is they greatly minimize the presence of the mob in his life. Right. And the sort of encroaching fear of the mob coming in for him. Because they're just like, we've done this. That's not what this movie is about. Who needs this? This is cliché. Schrader had written a long

50:45Griffin Newman:three-page masturbation monologue in which LaMotta is in prison trying to jerk off and failing. because he's such a failure. Who amongst us has not been there? Bob and Marty took that out because they felt it was too much. Traitor says, one of the best things I ever wrote. Don't know why they took it out. And he's filming it next year, right? But Scorsese was honestly like, you know, like, it was just, it's impossible to show this kind of stuff and like retain anything in terms of like the audience's interest. I got a pitch.

51:16David Sims:Camera from the point of view of the penis.

51:18Griffin Newman:Sure. That's how you show it.

51:19David Sims:It's just him going, oh,

51:20Griffin Newman:oh, oh, oh. Whatever. the final result is a script that people like De Niro hangs out with the real Jake LaMotta a lot. LaMotta is on set for some of the boxing scenes It's interesting because I wonder what he thought of the movie. LaMotta lived to be like a hundred years old.

51:38David Sims:Yeah, which is crazy Pretty crazy. That's the way like the French people eat chocolate and drink wine all day You're like, maybe this is the key to long life You just get in the ring and have your face fucking beaten in. He says that

51:49Griffin Newman:on set he would kind of be like, oh, I was such a son of a bitch. Like he would be self-deprecating but in kind of a charming way.

51:55David Sims:It must be wild to watch people act out these scenes from your life in a movie that's not glamorizing you. Well, wait a second. There's a lot... There's no way LaMotta lets this happen without thinking in some way it's glamorizing. You're right. He has to think... There's no way he's on that set not going, they're making a movie about me, baby. I'm a legend. I'm going to become part of a wider conversation. Mount Rushmore. You know?

52:23Griffin Newman:As we all know, De Niro gets incredible shape to make this movie. And then they take a four-month break and De Niro goes on what they call essentially a pasta tour. He just goes to northern Italy and France for four months stuffing his face to get the weight to play later Jake Romano. That sounds like the greatest trip in the world. I'm currently on a pasta tour. I might go on a couple. I'm on like a 30 to 40 year pasta tour currently.

52:48David Sims:Had pasta just last night. Made great pasta. Me too. I'm like Kiss where I keep saying like, this is the final pasta tour. And then I extend it for another three years.

53:00Griffin Newman:Apparently, Jake LaMotta in his real act would recite Shakespeare. And the end of the movie was him doing that. And Michael Powell, again, the esteemed director, was just like, that's not going to work. No. Like, Shakespeare's just all wrong for this. So they instead go for the on the waterfront because that's kind of like, that's his iconography.

53:18David Sims:That's also a truth is stranger than fiction thing where if that were in the movie, you'd be like, this is too much of a flourish. This is pretentious. The real guy would never say this. Yeah, but, but. Yeah. The on the waterfront thing is a risk too. It is. Because if you think about it, the movie ends in such a ridiculously stark meta way, right? Yes. It's multiple layers of meta. It's De Niro reciting the monologue from on the waterfront. He's reciting it flat, without emotion, without passion, clearly saying that these words of dialogue require some sort of illustriousness, some sort of performance quality, some entertainment that this guy just does not have.

54:03So then that ends, and he does his I'm the boss, I'm the boss, I'm the boss, I'm the boss. I'm the pocket. And then Scorsese speaks to the audience with a Bible passage. He does? It's the once I was blind, but now I can see. literally describing the intention, invention, and impact of the moving image. Literally saying, we were blind. We didn't have movies, but now we can see.

54:27David Sims:And it's the empathy machine argument. It's like, this is the best way to understand other people is through movies. Right. And here's the risk of that. There's the risk in the Shakespeare. There's the risk in this. It's essentially, it can be viewed as a pat on the back. As Scorsese going, this is my masterpiece. I fucking did it. I'm making more than just a film about a boxer. I'm making a film about film. It's, again, Tarantino saying, having, you know, Brad Pitt say it's a masterpiece. It's bold. But if you are a guy who knows you are an incredibly talented filmmaker and loves film and is losing the chance to make films.

55:07because of one film going awry, New York, New York,

55:12David Sims:and you're a drug addict. Yes. And your wife leaves you. You might be losing life. You've lost your love. Your wife leaves you. She had a child that he's basically not going to raise. Okay, so you have a choice at this moment. You either end the movie with some Shakespearean bullshit. Yeah. Or you come right out and basically say to the audience in a pleading way, I deserve to make films. Yeah. I look at this damn thing. Films are my passion. Once I was blind and now I can see. And here, here it is. Raw as fuck. And also I refuse to self-destruct in the way that this man did. I refuse to be stuck hammering the fucking jewels out of my championship belt.

55:57David Sims:And do you come away going, Scorsese knew exactly what he was doing when he made this film? Or do you go, there's no way he could have known the true impact of what this film is on a humanistic level. Is it an accident that this story that he didn't want to tell about this dopey, egomaniacal, violent, conflicted boxer, is it an accident that it turns out to be emblematic of human frailty itself? Does he know he's making that movie when he's making it? I think he knew he had nothing to lose. And I think that got him into a flow state. Right. That is what he connected to in the boxing sequences of that feeling of just being in there and it making sense.

56:52David Sims:And the beauty of it, right? Even when it's beautiful. How beautiful it is. Yes.

56:55Griffin Newman:You know. I will also say about the Bible. Schrader was like, what the fuck is that about? He was like, huh? What are you trying to say there's some salvation? It is also, you know, a tribute to his film teacher. Haig P. Mnudian. Oh, yes.

57:12David Sims:Yes.

57:12Griffin Newman:Who had passed away. Right after it says in honor of him. Yeah. And I do feel like he is talking about like what this person did for him as well. Like, you know, changing his view of how he understood and understood film.

57:23David Sims:Um, the other thing I read was that I think the Schrader version was more intercutting between the older LaMotta and his glory days, if you can call them that. And they made the big structural decision of, like, it's bookends. Right. It's one flashback rather than a series of him recounting. His whole, like, Dewey Cox style originally was more structure than movie. Yes. Which so many biopics are now, right? Yes, right. Yeah. And you are in Walk Hard, are you not? You are. I'm in Walk Hard. I'm in Ray. You're in both, yes Oh, you're in Ray, that's right I basically parodied myself I'm in the Springsteen movie Did not see it Which came out recently Well, yeah, they deliver us from nowhere I heard he had a hole in the floor where most people stand That kind of gets cut out of the movie Does it really?

58:08David Sims:That's interesting Oh, wait, can I tell a juicy story? Please Okay, I'm going to do this Because I haven't told this story yet So about that. So we're going to take a little sojourn into Springsteen. Deliver me from nowhere world briefly and you can choose to cut it if you want to. My one-on-one scene is with Jeremy Strong.

58:29Griffin Newman:Who's playing John Landau. John Landau. I have heard what everyone has heard that Jeremy Strong stays in character and blah, blah, blah. Okay. And so, yes, I'm a little scared of Jeremy Strong when I show up to the set and I'm also ready to fight. I'm like, if he fucks with me, if I have to work around this guy, I'm ready to bash him. I saw the film, you play the head of like Columbia Records, essentially. Yes. I think CBS Records. And yes, that's correct. And so I have this scene. I've only have two scenes in the movie. The second scene is me hearing the first version of Springsteen's Nebraska and not understanding how it's marketable and, you know, why we're doing, why we're going in this direction.

59:17And Landau, Jeremy Strong is making the case for having to happen something that Springsteen. Okay. So show up on set. But Jeremy Strong, nicest guy. He's not in character. He is in voice.

59:34David Sims:He's doing the affectation. A big difference that is often the case when you hear stories about people staying in character. It's not. Where they're like, they're talking to you about craft services. They're just holding on to the dialect. They're just holding on to the accent. Yes. So he's doing that. And so I'm in, and he's very sweet and wonderful. And he's a great actor. And I'm relieved. and we shoot the scene and he says after the first take he says i wrote a monologue for this scene that i'd like to try on film now mind you springsteen is there landau is there yeah while we're filming scott cooper directing sure he does the monologue the hole in the floor The Hole in the Floor monologue is written by Jeremy Strong.

1:00:18And it's long. And I'm thinking, not bad by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm thinking, selfishly, I'm like, well, this scene just became a six-minute scene. Sure. Or an eight-minute scene. And if they love this monologue, this is all that's going to be in the movie. Sure. Is me sitting there listening to this monologue. And I'm thinking, oh, shit. They cut and they come away and they go, no way. It was never said. This monologue is no. No. Springsteen's like no. Landau's like no. Cooper is like no. Jeremy Strong, God love him, does not take no for an answer. It does not seem to be his constitution.

1:01:00Let me try again, he says. Let me try again. And so he does a paraphrased version of it on the next take. And the next take. And it's changing. It's evolving. Is he shortening it? No. He's not shortening it. It's just changing. He's trying to... find the profundity in it um and and and they got it and we step off set while they set up the next shot and i hear jeremy strong speaking to scott cooper about it and all i hear really is him making his case for it and saying sean told me to fight for what i want as an actor pen i don't know interesting and i'm just standing there and i said william scott pretty funny and pretty funny and you know what jeremy strong if he was a true supposed asshole would have gotten upset he laughed

1:01:52Griffin Newman:his ass off yeah lovely human being i i i interviewed him for that movie i was very charmed by him he's a very nice human being normal guy and um all that to say i don't think he's That then I see the trailer for the film. And the trailer is that monologue. But then they cut the monologue out of the movie. And so wait. So I'm like, holy shit. It's in there. The monologue that they didn't like made the movie. And now I'm starting to go, wait a second. Am I like how there's no way people are going to sit through an eight minute scene. And if that's in the movie, then I wonder what was cut. Yeah.

1:02:28I reach out to Scott Cooper. I say, wow, I can't believe, you know, that made the movie. And he goes, oh, it's not in the movie. And it's not. The monologue from the trailer is not in that movie. It is not. Yeah. It's amazing.

1:02:40Griffin Newman:I watched the whole movie waiting for the trailer. It's a wonderful marketing thing that Jeremy wrote haphazardly. Maybe that was the conversation they had on set where they're like, kind of sum something up. So maybe we use it for the trailer. No, I talked to him about it for that movie. And I said, you know, your whole goddamn process is so insane. But was it weird that you had the guy and could go check with him? Yeah. versus like half these movies where it's like you're playing some dead person. There's no Roy Cohn on set. And instead, this is like, he's fucking sitting over there. And you can go, is that better?

1:03:11Griffin Newman:Is that worse? And he was kind of like, it was interesting. I mean, he wasn't. Raging Bull was the same way. LaMotta is there. He is there. He is there. And it's like that strikes me as something that could be difficult if he tries to interfere. But I don't think he was there at all. There's no way he did because he's probably feeling lucky they're doing it. And also, they make him, in moments, into a monster. Yes. I don't think there's a human being on Earth that would sit there and go, yeah, make it more monstrous. I think it's vital that you start with him as a monster. I mean, not just with the steak.

1:03:49Griffin Newman:Yes. Where you're just like, good God, this guy's at his peak or whatever, almost. And he's a piece of shit. And Larry calls him an animal. He called me a fucking, you're an animal, Larry. You know who's an animal? Your mother's an animal. He goes to the mother right away all the time. Oh, that's a lot of mothers. He loves springing up the mom. Yeah. Joe Pesci was a child actor on the New York stage. Had not been in a film from 1961, Hey, Let's Twist, until 1976's The Death Collector. Right, which is the TV movie that they end up seeing. Right. He was worn out. He'd given up. He didn't really like the business of acting.

1:04:24Griffin Newman:He likes acting as an art, he says. But he was pretty sick of Joe Pesci. Hates the hustle. Yeah. he catches wind that they want him for this role he figured it was like a small role and was basically like give it to a working actor who wants it I'm running a restaurant in the Bronx for some friends of mine I feel like Joe Pesci the story's like he's helping some friends of his out he's just helping a friend I was out of that place in Hollywood where you're at everyone's mercy all the time you know he basically just you know he's sick of it then he meets Marty and Bob he saw working with them would be different it was all as you said because De Niro had somehow seen the death collector on tape and was like, this guy's interesting.

1:05:05Griffin Newman:And there's a scene, I guess, in that movie where he runs a crap game and they liked his energy. I haven't seen the death collector. And, you know, they just like the way he talks. And that's how that happens. Kathy Moriarty. Joe Pesci had seen her picture in a club. Liked the look of her. She'd never acted.

1:05:26David Sims:She was 19, which defies logic. You watch this performance and you assume they cast a 30 year old who's playing young well she's got that great old person voice it's insane he's got that great a little she's got a little bit of smokiness in the voice she's got more than and she is stunningly beautiful yes in a classic film she's a beauty

1:05:44Griffin Newman:yes yes but they obviously needed someone who is kind of flinty and tough and like you know could stand up to everyone and i don't know how they get that out of a picture in a club but i guess they meet her and they get it. They shoot the fight scenes for 10 weeks. Then they shoot dramatic scenes for 10 weeks. Then they take a four-month break. Everyone is paid while De Niro is on his eating tour. They shoot the damn thing for 20 weeks? 20 weeks. Insane. Then a four-month break, and then he comes back and they do the rest of it, which is not too much. And how long does that take? Not too much.

1:06:16Griffin Newman:Let me see. The older LaMotta stuff is not heavy running time, right? No. If you add it all up. No, it's like 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I think it's a half hour. Okay. It's the last half hour. When they just start doing some prep, he shoots some eight millimeter footage of Bobby training in a gym. And Michael Powell, again, Scorsese's mentor, is like the gloves wouldn't be red back then because he had like red boxing gloves. And he's like, you know, back then, gloves were basically like that kind of like dark. It's maroon, brown, or black. And Marty is basically like, we got to do this in black and white.

1:06:51Griffin Newman:Number one, I want to differentiate from the Rockies and all the other sort of boxing movies right now. Like, I want to look different because those movies are all bright reds and blues and all that. Right. At this point, Rocky is all American flag. And number two, and this is a nerdy Scorsese reason, he's really upset that color stocks are fading like Eastman film. Yes. The colors like not lasting. In terms of preservation and yeah. And then beyond that, he's just kind of like, it'll look period. It'll look like an old, like, daily news photo from the era, right? Like, it'll have that. That's the great argument.

1:07:24Griffin Newman:That is what the movie gets at for me. Yeah. And then in the book, apparently, it opens with Jake LaMotta's first sentences, when my memories come back to me, I have the feeling that I'm watching an old film in black and white. Marty says, I don't remember that, but apparently that is in there. Can I say there's a haphazard result out of it? Which is? Which is, yes, let's say, you know, yes, there's an old feeling to it. We're telling a classic story, a crude, raw story. There's no color. It's black and white. His life is black and white. It's either that he's got it together and he's handling his life well, or he's a complete and utter dark maniac, right?

1:08:06Black, dark maniac. But there's also this haphazard effect on the comedy. Because we're seeing comedy clearly in, you know, deliberate comedic moments mixed in with violence. It's the Three Stooges.

1:08:23David Sims:It's that pattern, yes. It softens it in a way. Yeah. If it's in color, it's almost too vivid. If you see the blood and the blood is red, it's almost too much. I was going to say. accident in a way yeah it is it the black and white of it softens the comedy yeah if this movie were in color it would be talked about as one of the most violent movies of all that is very true yes yeah and obviously he'd already had that experience in taxi driver right now

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1:10:50Griffin Newman:He wanted to do the ring scenes as if, like, the viewers are the fighter, right? Yeah. And, you know, you're not cutting to the audience much. Like, you never really see them going, like, get him or whatever. And they're pretty abstracted even in the background of shots.

1:11:07David Sims:As you said, it's a lot of smoke and a lot of just black backdrops.

1:11:11Griffin Newman:Frank Warner, the Foley guy, sound effects guy, used melons. he would fire rifles into them and stuff like he did all kinds of weird sound effects obviously at some points they dropped the sound which is so scary and impressive and then they bring it back to really get you

1:11:25David Sims:producer Ben I'm realizing in another life you could have been a Foley artist yeah it feels like some real Ben shit to sit down and go what sounds like a punch shoot a rifle into a melon totally that's the way your brain works yeah

1:11:37Griffin Newman:it seems really fun to come up with those concepts yes an experiment

1:11:42David Sims:and as I said everyone is different they didn't want to repeat sounds. So they did like a massive, massive number of takes and different techniques.

1:11:50Griffin Newman:And then obviously also this is the reunion of Marty and Thelma Schoonmaker, who will edit all the rest of his films. Yes.

1:11:57David Sims:This was, I think, voted by the Editor Society. She won the Oscar. She won the Oscar, but I think it was voted the best edited film of all time. Was there a sound editing Oscar at this time?

1:12:08Griffin Newman:Let's take a look here. Sound design. A sound Oscar. I think there wasn't, but let me see. Because, you know, remember they would sort of do like special, Best Sound Look it did go to The Empire Strikes Back Which does have Pretty good sound Yeah high bar there It was nominated Difficulty But the Best Sound Was given to The Empire Strikes Back Raging Bull was nominated For Best Sound It won two Oscars One for editing And one for Robert De Niro

1:12:31David Sims:Robert De Niro won for this?

1:12:33Griffin Newman:Yes he did Okay

1:12:34David Sims:For acting For acting in this movie For acting

1:12:35Griffin Newman:It's obviously this is Although I think He wasn't there Maybe for Godfather I think it's the first time He accepts I think that's correct Am I crazy? to say that he hasn't won an Academy Award since. That's correct. He has two. He has exactly two.

1:12:50David Sims:Wow. And I feel like it's been buzzing around, is it time to finally give him a third since Silver Linings?

1:12:56Griffin Newman:Right. Silver Linings and Fire Moon.

1:12:59David Sims:He was nominated for both. There's a long gap. Like, he doesn't get nominated between Cape Fear and Silver Linings. Is that right? I think that's right. Yeah. I don't know what his third Oscar would have been exactly. I mean, it should have been The Intern. Have you seen The Intern? No. He's phenomenal in the interim. Yeah. He plays an interim.

1:13:20Griffin Newman:This is the ordinary people year, obviously. That's what wins Best Picture and Director. Wow, what a year. Good lord. It beats, obviously, Timothy Hutton wins Supporting Actor over... Pesci. Pesci and Mary Steenburgen wins Best Supporting Actress for Melvin and Howard. Which is a good win. A lovely performance over Kathy. And Best Adapted Screenplay wasn't even nominated, which is somewhat shocking. Yeah. Well, but if you think about it, not really, because the movie is heavily improvised. There's no doubt. Is there even a script? There are multiple scripts. There are, but it's not like they stuck to it.

1:13:54Yes.

1:13:55Griffin Newman:There's no way. And to me, the most shocking win, yeah, the loss is the cinematography loss. Yeah. So there's, yeah, let's talk about the film. There's two scenes in this movie. One that I don't like and one that I absolutely love. Give them two. Okay. the only scene i don't like in this movie because it's a little on the nose foreshadowing is them at you know on their first date mini golf they lose the ball she shoots it into some structure on this mini golf thing and they the ball doesn't come out and i felt like okay he's telling us that this guy's gonna lose everything that you know sometimes you take a shot and it doesn't end up doing anything right um okay so that felt that in retrospect watching and i was like okay this this scene is a little like the screenwriting 101 i'm not you know and that's not to knock anything but it's not great alternately alternatively i don't know how to speak the bit with the champagne glasses stacked yeah at the end yes representing balance yeah sure and scorsese at that point deep into this film now we're about an hour and 45 into the two hours yeah when we're past his career and he's now this is running the club so why is that scene in this film right it's him proving himself that he can balance this thing but scorsese is playing now with what he established.

1:15:29Like, what is the, he's saying to the audience, you don't know what to feel, do you? Yeah, yes. There is no balance. You're watching our lead character balance this thing. Excess. He's balancing excess. You can't balance how you feel. I know you can't. I'm Scorsese. I made a movie that is confusing you. You don't know what to feel. And if you feel disturbed, maybe that's the only thing you feel because you just don't, you're used to being told what to feel. or assuming what you should be feeling. And this movie is so cross-genre. There's 10 genres. You don't know what to feel. And so you're conflicted.

1:16:10You're uncomfortable. And honestly, watching that balancing and his pride in it, to me, is the goriest moment of this movie. A movie filled with blood. The goriest moment is him doing this champagne balance and smiling and getting the congratulations from the few people that are gathered around. There's something so disturbing about that moment and so gross. The employee comes up and says, your wife is here and he just couldn't be any more discussive.

1:16:41David Sims:Right. He's just like, let me do this. That's the real point of it for me is that what he's balancing is an overflowing amount of alcohol for nobodies. Right.

1:16:51Griffin Newman:And it's like, what is the victory here? It's an incredibly tense scene because we've watched him fail to navigate the simplest human interactions throughout the movie. And anytime this guy fucking sits down for dinner or talks to someone, you're like, is he going to explode? Is he going to... And then you can feel the tension in the scene and in the audience of being like, are the fucking glasses going to fall over? Is he going to scream at someone? He does the fake out. He does the fake out. And then you're... So you're tense because you've spent your whole life with this guy, it feels like, just being on edge about what a monster he can be.

1:17:28Griffin Newman:And then he does it, and you're like, huh, I feel triumphant. And then you feel bad about that.

1:17:33David Sims:Yeah.

1:17:33Griffin Newman:You're like, he did a good job. And then it's just like, just there's this kind of revulsion, and there's this weird triumph to it. That's what I love about this movie. The same with him in the prison cell, where you feel bad for him. Yeah. But then you're also just like, he's a monster. like you know and like he made out with a 14 year old at a club it's and uh yeah you know at his club as the owner as the and and when he says the like what i mean she she his defense isn't even i didn't know she was right it's what does she look 14 to you and then say that to a cop the side by side of her as she is and her high school or whatever yeah and you're just you're just like i want him locked up and then he's you know pummeling the wall and you're just like you know well what is locking you know like what what satisfaction am i getting out of this i already knew he was like this broken animal yet i it's well also he

1:18:33David Sims:won't let you look away he dissolves into banging his head against the cement wall saying dummy over and over again and then that turns into boxing practice like he resorts back to the one thing he knows which is to try to punch his way out of stuff this is the kind of movie you exit the theater and the person you're with goes what'd you think yeah and you're afraid to answer in an elaborate way of a thousand thoughts but you don't want to be wrong yeah and so you say it was great and that's all you say it's very well shot because whatever you say whatever you say

1:19:08Griffin Newman:says a lot about you yeah and that's what and so and that's exactly what he's doing he's putting the audience in such an awkward position how do you is he was he likable was he fun to follow was he funny was he was he is he a disgusting human being you know we all spend the majority of our lives negotiating with the reality of who we are and not ever accepting who we really really are and it isn't until the i'm a dummy dash my head that we see the pain of accepting who you really really are who jake finally accepts he is a dummy you're so so stupid yeah you ruined everything yes you're a bum you know um it's it's and it's brutal to do that but it's also brutal to negotiate with the reality so there's the rock and the heart place you know what i mean i also think it we would be crazy not to talk about the style of comedy in this film can we do that please so we're now entering into this nuanced sort of circumstantial comedy there's not a single written joke in this movie there's just little things being said behavioral maybe improved behavioral maybe just and it's gutturally funny and a lot of it's also just rhythmic it's correct the martyr there's no clever witty banter to it yeah it's the opposite of witty banter yes and some of these lines i wrote down if you don't mind there's the he says when he throws the fight and uh billy fox i think or jimmy is it billy fox yeah let me look at it i think it's billy fox is the fighter he fights who does a bad job making it look like a real fight he can't sell it because he's too embarrassed and he ends up getting suspended lamana gets suspended and he's looking at the paper and we've had this this this very funny uh physical bit where he uh he smacks pesci says smack me let me show you something just smack me and he smacks him and pesci boom it falls down yeah that's so hard he doesn't even do that he goes put your

1:21:19David Sims:hands up right right there's not even a smack and lamata just puts his hands up and pesci falls straight down that's right yeah there's also in that scene he picks up the de niro picks up the paper and says look at this look how they make me look they make me look like a bum like a mama luke and pesci goes i googled pesci goes a what and he goes like the mama look of the year it's just like you know there's no way they don't know while they're making it that that's funny and while and while they're editing these who knows what's not in the movie from all that improv there's no way it's not improvised like the mama lucreer um that's one of my favorite then there's the uh there's the moment where he throws the fight he knows it looked bad he's crying his eyes out in stark contrast to the fight where he i believe he loses it's in the beginning he loses the first fight we see him in yes um he loses but like there's a somewhat moral victory you kind of had him yeah yeah i think it's that fighter maybe it's one of the sugar ray fights but he's sitting in the the whatever the dressing room or whatever be afterwards and there's a real peace yeah he got what he needed out it's like post coital for him yeah he's sitting there everybody else is kind of freaking out oh yeah that's right joe pesci's like they fucking robbed you right you know and he's sitting there going it's all right it's all right and he says he goes ah you know maybe i deserve and maybe I've done some bad things in my life.

1:22:54All of a sudden you get, oh, there's some emotion, there's intelligence there, some awareness. You know, what a weird thing to say from this crude guy to say, you know what, maybe it's just karma, you know? But later there's the scene where he throws it and he's, there's the small hands pitch. But later there's a scene where he's crying hysterically and his trainer goes, you know what, don't fight ever again. It's a free country. Don't fight ever again. that line has me screaming. And then his trainer, that old man, starts to cry. Yeah. But before, you know what? Don't fight again. It's a free country.

1:23:29Don't fight again.

1:23:30David Sims:I just think the small hands thing is so big because as you said, like he loses the opening fight, but he has inner peace because he feels like he proved what he needed to prove. Right. And then after he wins what is the biggest fight of his career, he cannot get over the fact that he never will be able to achieve what he wants to achieve. That's right. That physically he is incapable of actually getting. I can't get the fight that proves that I'm the best. And then you got Pesci. Yes. What is wrong with you? Why would you care about that? That's crazy. That's sick. You know, what's he talking about?

1:24:00You want to fight Joe Lou? You'll never. You're a heavyweight. You're a middleweight. He's a heavyweight. It's never going to happen. Right. It's logically like who gives a shit? See, you worry about shit. It's the things you worry about. That's why you're a sick bastard. That's why you're a fat fuck. It's so. It's so good. But Pesci is let loose.

1:24:16Griffin Newman:the heavyweight thing is really telling where like you can tell a modest like but I wouldn't actually be the best unless I could fucking like knock down Muhammad Ali and it's just like well you're not fucking capable of that you are literally not large enough it's irrelevant and like even if you went to the weight of a heavyweight you would just be a ball so like so get over it and he never gets over it you know she beats Sugar Ray one time who is kind of the king of his division and that's something But you can tell from there on, and that's very early in the movie. But there's no way he's going to ever feel like he won't.

1:24:50Griffin Newman:He'll never feel, exactly, vindicated in his masculinity. And everything falls apart, right? The comic engine of this movie that really, the movie hinges on the comedy, or else it's too miserable to watch, is the brother dynamic. It's a brother comedy. Two very different brothers. One's a handsome, tall, really physically fit beast animal and his, you know, wisecracking but sensible little pugnacious Napoleon complex tiny brother. You know, they both have the same size hands, but other than that, there's nothing. And there's a ton of comedy for that. And even that becomes tragic. You know, he beats the shit out of his brother and then he tries years later to, you know, his brother won't hug him back.

1:25:38Yeah. hug him kiss me come on kiss me give me a kiss basically hug attack him yeah give me a kiss give me a kiss and he won't do it he never does it he gets in his car he says yeah i'll call you pesci does yeah you know you'll call me yeah i'll call you sure yeah yeah you know it's it's like everything goes to shit yeah scorsese's going you want me to be cruel i'm gonna take the funny stuff away now i'm gonna make the funny the stuff you were watching in the beginning that really you you were enjoying i'm gonna take that away i'm gonna ruin that for you you know there are certain films and certain filmmakers who have no problem being mean to an audience you know that you know let's let's stick it to them let's make them bleed and scorsese has to he you know it's the visceral reaction that he wants he's not trying to get anyone going again no erudite responses are necessary to a Scorsese film.

1:26:33Right. You're not, he doesn't want people walking out analyzing the shit, which is what we're kind of doing today. Sure. Right. Yeah, that's true. This is not what he wants. He wants you to come out in pain. Feel something. Feel something so visceral. Yeah. Panic, you know, fear, cape fear. Embarrassment a little bit. Just, yeah, embarrassment, a lack of identity. You don't want to admit who, how you felt about the movie because you don't want to like think, make people think you're crazy. if you say, I like LaMotta. Right. Or I relate to him or I sympathize with him. He wants you to think that.

1:27:06He's got you on the ropes. How's that? How's that, Scorsese? You got us on the ropes. You motherfucker.

1:27:12Griffin Newman:I think there's another thing. And it's because...

1:27:14David Sims:Sorry, I love Martin Scorrer.

1:27:15Griffin Newman:No, but it's what he does over and over and over again is he sparks this discourse among his viewers of like, well, I wasn't supposed to sympathize with that, was I? Is this movie irresponsible? Or does he sympathize with this? And he's just like human behavior like this happens all the time. Right. And in the world of film, very, very few filmmakers attempt to tackle the thing that Kubrick's, all of Kubrick's movies are about. Which is the fight between the consciousness of humanity and the subconscious nature of animal instinct. and that that inherent battle you know you you really man that's a tough line in a film but if film is made for anything it's for that and that's a real uh ambitious thing to do very few filmmakers can pull it off this is if at this point if scorsese hasn't done it with taxi driver this is him and putting an exclamation point on i can do this as a filmmaker i can show you a film that will get to the base issue of humanity.

1:28:24And very few filmmakers can do it completely in a full way where the message is clearly sent and yet there's mystery as to how well it's done, if that makes sense in a way.

1:28:41David Sims:I think there's another massive thing going on here. Spielberg does it too, I think. I think the other massive thing going on here is Scorsese, I mean, you were talking about the comedy of this, he unlocks how much the comedy helps all of this go down because laughter is involuntary. You can make people laugh at bad behavior without judging. It's a thing that just happens. That just happens. And this is all involuntary. There is no single, like I said, written or deliberate joke. And hard to put your finger on why is this funny. This is belly laugh stuff. And New York has the same very repetitive recursive improv, but it's not funny.

1:29:16David Sims:And it's actually just punishing. and so you're sitting there you're thinking I hate this guy because I don't like spending time with him there's nothing even entertaining about spending time with him versus if it's entertaining if you can locate what is both the comedic and dramatic motor of a scene and just wind that up it's what he said when he read the book there are scenes in this I see that there are scenes incidents setups in this that are interesting and if you can make those entertaining the audience is with you a long way until they start to intellectualize it The map that is established in the late 70s to be able to tell these sort of human frailty stories with comedy, with, you know, part of that map is Annie Hall.

1:30:03Okay. Woody has done this thing where he goes, oh, you want to see a movie about human frailty? Cast me as the lead. I'm going to cast myself as the lead. Done. So by the time Raging Bull has come out, audiences are used to seeing these films about fragile men who are crushed by ambition and burdened by their ability. And so Scorsese, I think, uses that zeitgeist to then give you something so horrifying. LaMotta is probably a much, much more classically frightening monster, movie monster, than LaMotta was as a person.

1:30:51David Sims:Yes. Right? There's some exaggeration. There's some in who he is for film's sake. Also, the density of the story, when you're limiting it to the highlights, you're seeing disproportionately his explosions. And it's, in my opinion, one of the scariest performances I've ever seen. When I was 21, especially seeing this for the first time, De Niro's performance scared the bejesus out of me. There are times he truly goes dead-eyed. He gets so animalistic that you go, whoa, I didn't think a human being was, there's a psychotic nature to this performance. I also think that, like, the 70s New Hollywood has the rise of the antihero that really starts in the late 60s.

1:31:37David Sims:But this is a big shift into, like, this guy's not even an antihero. Right. This is putting the guy you'd never put at the center of the picture right there. Yeah, right. Right. Because, you know, something like Midnight Cowboy has, like, well, Ratso Rizzo is on the side. Yeah, very much so. And you have an innocent who doesn't quite understand what he's getting into at the center. That balances it out. that makes you feel less dirty from where you're identifying. But this is the Razzle Rizzo movie. Sort of. And again, another reason, they can't make this today. No. They don't make movies. You know, Pesci, when he blew up after winning the Academy Award for Goodfellas.

1:32:18Yeah. Suddenly, he's doing a couple of the Super. Yes. Remember? My Cousin Vinny. Yes. You know, those movies are great. They are. They're great.

1:32:27Griffin Newman:Like movies where suddenly Hollywood is like, what's a vehicle for you? What's a vehicle? What can you be the star? Right. Nowadays, they don't do that. No. If you were to ask an executive, hey, is it a good marketing strategy to make a movie about a freaky person? Right. They would be like, we can't do it. Yeah. Yes, but wouldn't an audience like to see something different? Different for different's sake. Wouldn't they like to see something small, weird, chubby, strange? And the answer on, you know, To any layman who isn't a communications major straight out of college, who's been, who's failed upward into becoming a development executive at a studio, is of course we want to see those.

1:33:08The problem is those people who make the decisions now are like, it's like sabermetrics.

1:33:14David Sims:Yeah. They just go analytically, it wouldn't work.

1:33:18Griffin Newman:With you on sabermetrics.

1:33:19David Sims:You know? That sabermetrics are ruining Hollywood 3.0. We are in the sabermetric period. Yes. Of Hollywood 3.0 or whatever.

1:33:27Griffin Newman:I do love Hollywood 3.0, though. Take it all back. Hollywood 3.0 is better than ever.

1:33:31David Sims:So then Sabermetrics ruined Hollywood 2.0, and now we're building something new with 3.0? I hope so. I hope so, because it's disgusting, to be honest with you. I think this is what the Safdies do, and I think of the Scorsese influence that clearly is on their work. This is the movie that is the greatest driver.

1:33:47Griffin Newman:And just the sort of the Safdie thing of like how, which can be uncomfortable and can kind of backfire, of like, how close can we get to a real person that's uncomfortable for you? told sort of yeah now have either of you ever met or seen Robert De Niro I have nothing beyond a sort of a you know sort of press conference type scenario no I have uh and I have told my De Niro story on too many podcasts okay but there's a second we will syndicate it had a somewhat awkward encounter I had a very very awkward and wild I kidnapped his kids for about 10 seconds yes I have heard this story. It's an unbelievable thing.

1:34:27Griffin Newman:Yes. Saddled with it that, you know, I kidnapped my hero's kids by accident. Yes. He's got twins. He's a twin dad like me. It was the twins that I kidnapped by accident. By accident. By accident. There was no deliberate kidnapping. It was actually their fault that they got kidnapped. But I'm not going to get into the story because anyone can look it up and you'll see that I'm not lying about that part of it. Yeah. But the second story. So three years ago, I'm at the SAG Awards for Oppenheimer. And De Niro is there for Killers of the Flower Moon. And I go to the bathroom. The bathroom is back behind the curtains, backstage.

1:35:13And I go to the bathroom. And standing in front of the men's room, seemingly waiting for someone to come out, is Robert De Niro. and I see him and people are asking to take pictures with him and he's obliging. I go in and I pee. I'm in there a reasonable amount of time. I come out. He's still out there and I realize he's not waiting for anyone to come out of the bathroom and what has formed is essentially a line of fans lined up to take pictures with Robert De Niro as if he's like some sort of Disney mascot. Yeah. And he's happy to oblige. Now this is clearly not the De Niro of 1980. No. There's no way this is the Nero of 1990, of 2000.

1:35:55This is someone who's accepted being the older statesman. Correct. Older De Niro who loves it. Yeah. Who loves the praise. And so I stand on line. Wow. I joined the line. Now, I'd met him years prior. I assume there's no way he remembers me. And there wasn't. I went up to him and I said, hi, Mr. Nero. I'm an actor, too. I'm an Oppenheimer. And I just want to say it's great to me. He has no idea who I am. And thankfully Because you know I don't think he loved The story of me Kidnapping his children And so So I said Do you mind if I Take a picture With you too And he said yes And I took a picture And he said Cheese Wow And then I found out That's what he does With every fan Picture He reflexively says Cheese I mean you're So here's this guy Right So here's this guy

1:36:47Griffin Newman:Who played Jake LaMotta Right. Who played, what's the name of the character in Cape Fear? Max Cady. Yeah. Oh, my God. This is a ridiculously complicated actor. A person on screen where you're like, the devil's here. Correct. Yes. And then he did play the devil, of course. And then it's cheese. Well, there's a little bit of Jake LaMotta there with his dignity still intact.

1:37:10David Sims:Absolutely. But especially when he had such a hard pivot to comedy.

1:37:14Griffin Newman:Right. When he did the comedies and then he did the sort of era of like showing up in weird kind of red boxy movies. De Niro doesn't get enough credit for being a great comedic actor. He's a great comedic film. Very friendly actor.

1:37:25David Sims:But, you know, he made himself more of a public figure. He made himself the spokesperson of Tribeca and started a festival and opened a bunch of restaurants. And now he's politically charged and with his... No, wait a second. He doesn't like Donald Trump. Is he pro or anything? David?

1:37:39Griffin Newman:David? Has he come out on this? I'm pretty sure. He's taking a wait-and-see approach. I switch. Was it Bo is Afraid? There was some movie where he was doing... No, it was Megalopolis. Okay. Where, like, he did a Q &A with Coppola. Uh-huh. And maybe Marty was there, too. I can't even remember. But obviously he knows Coppola. Yeah. And, like, everyone who was there was, like, one minute in. He was like, and by the way, Trump is no good either. And everyone's like, he can't help himself this second. Which I love. I love this. And I wonder if there is. I love the rumor MSNBC, you know, grandpa that he is.

1:38:12It feels very much like there's a personal issue, too. Yes. because this is a new york guy and because de niro kind of owns a lot of property in tribeca which is you know and i'm sure trump has his you know i'm there must have been something that happened in the past i just love when he's at that award show and he says fuck trump but he doesn't just say fuck trump he puts his arms up yes yeah he goes i'm strong here's what he does

1:38:37Griffin Newman:a hulk hogan here's what he said just imagine donald trump directing this film it'll never go anywhere where like I'm sure everyone was like I don't think anyone thought Trump was in the running on directing Megalopolis. By the way you could say that about literally any movie you could say

1:38:51David Sims:imagine Trump directing a Cinderella story and I'm like yeah it wouldn't be good the guy's not a good director he lacks the basic experience to direct a motion picture.

1:38:59Griffin Newman:And also I love Megalopolis it's a fascinating document that's not something where I was watching it be train on rails.

1:39:06David Sims:Thank God Trump didn't wreck this one. Do you remember because it relates back to this movie when it was the early stages of first Trump presidency, De Niro going, fuck Trump. Yeah. And Trump made a public statement about it. Maybe a tweet. Wash up Robert De Niro. Yes. He's a washed up old bum. Low IQ. Right, low IQ. Right, right. He's lost his mind and he said, I think he made one too many boxing pictures. His slam on him was, oh, he's punch drunk. Right. He's made one too many boxing pictures. He made one. He made Raging Bull. He made one second one, which is grudge match. I was about to say, no, he made grudge match.

1:39:41David Sims:never forget which is de niro versus stallone correct and in this one of trump's favorite movies yeah probably but also within the same term he gives stallone like the national medal

1:39:52Griffin Newman:of arm true he's definitely seen and stallone's made a couple oh he definitely watched grudge

1:39:56David Sims:man you're not allowed to slam de niro saying too many boxing pictures and be like by the way

1:40:00Griffin Newman:here's my best friend i'm sorry are you saying this is where you draw the line i have decided

1:40:04David Sims:and i'm using this episode to speak out against it i do not like donald trump for this one reason

1:40:19David?

1:40:21David Sims:Yes. Red alert. Uh-oh. There's been an outbreak. Biohazard. Of a new Patreon series. It's contagious. Oh, that's so true. It's been cooked up in the lab for your pleasure. From the fine folks at the Umbrella Corporation, we are covering Resident Evil. The film franchise. Yes. We've got the first franchise.

1:40:47Griffin Newman:Six movies. Yes. That beautiful second franchise. How many? Six? Seven? It's got the one movie. Oh, it's got the one. We'll be covering all of them on Patreon doing commentaries on, yes, the Resident Evil, Apocalypse, Extinction, Afterlife, Retribution, the final chapter. Welcome to Raccoon City.

1:41:04David Sims:This is an exciting time. Zach Kregor, friend of the podcast, has a new Resident Evil coming out. And we thought this was a good opportunity to revisit the history of Resident Evil movies.

1:41:13Griffin Newman:Why not? Why not? Why can't we? Why can't we? We can. Check in for that August 1st. And it's going to be running all the way through November 1st.

1:41:24David Sims:Followed by your March Madness winner. Dracula. Dr. Acula himself. That's so fun. So that's great. That's great. Thank you. Thank you so much.

1:41:44can i take a moment please steal a moment away and just say that i know a lot of amazing actors who would say that without that yes in a world of pacinos and hoffmans and nicholsons and and and and gina roland's and peter fox that they'd be nothing without Robert De Niro. Yeah. That Robert De Niro laid so much groundwork for so much amazing work to come after. And he's still doing it. I mean, I don't know if you guys saw that Netflix series he did that a lot of people didn't watch, unfortunately. Zero day. Zero day. Amazing. Amazing performance. Again, it's ridiculous. It's another character. It's another thing.

1:42:36The guy, he's basically playing Joe Biden. Right.

1:42:39Griffin Newman:Like an elder statesman president dealing with a big crisis. The guy is just the ideal thing. And it's all like, there's nothing that isn't derivative at this point. It's one of those things, it's like Led Zeppelin or something or Wu-Tang Clan where it just completely, there's no way you can ever say that anything new wasn't influenced by that thing. De Niro is that I don't know if Scorsese is that I think Scorsese is definitely a dynamic filmmaker And definitely one of the For me top three of all time But in terms of completely Restructuring the art itself No crumbs left on the plate And that's from From Krumholz Finishing And that's from Krumholz That's from Krumholz God damn it I hate that my name is David Krumholz No it's a great name In this moment It's a great name I just want to say God I love I just I get emotional Yeah I'm so glad that Robert De Niro exists Mm-hmm But to me And I think he wants this My guess is He doesn't want to exist He wants his characters to

1:43:51David Sims:Well it's the part of him That hates doing press Correct And seems like his toenails Are being pulled out One by one What an amazing Unique thing that is Yeah An artist that doesn't want To take credit For his art in a way and doesn't yeah it's so noble sort of like it came out of nowhere it's noble right the profundity of what he was able to achieve amongst a world of actors wow robert de niro good actor beyond good actor beyond on another level it's like this thing i read about wu-tang once and you know i love the wu-tang clan where it says there's wu-tang and then there's also hip pop you know sure robert de niro is just its own singular thing actor thing i don't know how to do that i don't know if anyone knows how to be that how to live with that talent all we can all do as a collective especially as ethnic you know american actors i know is strive for that but But there's no escaping.

1:44:59You'll never be better than Robert De Niro. As an actor, you will never be better, pound for pound, than Robert De Niro. And that's okay.

1:45:08David Sims:I think it's like Brando where, especially other guys of his generation, you see that everyone goes, this is the new thing to strive for. And I think De Niro is a thing that people strive for. And you can tell when people want to be De Niro. And of course, there's no De Niro without Brando. De Niro didn't just come out of nowhere. But he doesn't feel iterative. That's what's different. And he blasts that style through the stratosphere. Yes. So he sees an opening. Oh shit, Brando's doing a more sort of nuanced, weird, subtle, off-the-cuff thing that no one else is allowed to do. I'm going to, that's going to shoot, I'm going to do that, but take it to an infinite level that, again, I don't, there will never be another actor.

1:45:55better than robert de niro there will be actors that are good as good and there are you know denzel and you know the list goes on and on there is no such thing as better and then you it speaks to what is acting right what is it is it's a matter of degrees between the worst porn actor no offense to porn i certainly don't want to fend off the pornography acting community and Robert De Niro. That what is the tangible thing that makes De Niro better than your worst porn actor?

1:46:30David Sims:Well, even as you said, there is nothing tangible. That this movie is a matter of degrees. Is going to build to watching this guy give a bad performance night after night. Right. That it takes a level of genius for De Niro to understand what a bad performance is. Yes. And to be able to play it. I've seen, you know, actors play bad actors. Yeah. No one does it as well as De Niro. No. No. It's sick. It's frightening. In many ways, De Niro is maybe the most frightening person on earth that has ever lived. Are there specific... But in a way that I love and revere him. Of course. No, of course. And I would want to hug him and be his friend.

1:47:08David Sims:Are there other specific scenes we want to shout out? We're talking about the steak scene a little bit. The steak scene where it starts to get

1:47:14Griffin Newman:an impression of like, this guy's been a piece of shit. He's got a wife we're barely going to get to know that, you know... that he just clearly treats like garbage.

1:47:24David Sims:We're watching the end of his first era.

1:47:26Griffin Newman:Yeah. It's sort of the beginning of his star, his athlete stardom, but he's already, you know, washing out of a marriage because he's an abusive piece of shit. There's all this stuff with Frank Vincent who basically always plays a guy who's going to like get the shit beat out of him in a Scorsese movie. Well, that's what's great, but that's what's so great about Goodfellas. Well, yeah. It's Scorsese. It's Scorsese going, and I can do this twice and no one's and it'll be better the second time. Yes. Amazing. There's the the pool you know when they're at the pool talking through the fence. Right.

1:48:02Griffin Newman:Yeah. And talking about Kathy Moriarty and you see the sort of the seeds of his what do you call it insecurity being planted right there where Pesci's like

1:48:14David Sims:well you know you got this you got a it's a girl you got to go on a couple dates with you got to get to know her.

1:48:18Griffin Newman:She's not just going to sleep with you you know like you know and shot through the gate. Yes. Like he's in a cage. Right. But Lamont is like caging her. Lamont is missing out. So you tried.

1:48:29David Sims:She's going to be trapped. What you're telling me

1:48:30Griffin Newman:is you tried. You tried. Because he doesn't want to be like sloppy seconds or whatever about it.

1:48:35David Sims:But she didn't go. She didn't go.

1:48:36Griffin Newman:Right. And so then there's a triumph of he gets her. Yeah. Her performance is just amazing because you're just like And she's 19. That she's so young but that just like so immediately you understand like oh this is so much more than he can handle. Like, you know, like he just thought he was like getting some pretty young girl.

1:48:55David Sims:That's where I can't believe that she's actually 19 because the amount of like presence and command she has holding her own in these scenes against these guys. She's probably scared shitless and she probably, it scared her into, intimidated, I should use the, that's the word. Intimidated shitless and intimidated into just hanging on for dear life and not fucking a damn thing up. And by the end of the movie, she's playing 10, 15 years older than she is. Right. And you buy it Totally buy it. It feels more like it's a 30-year-old playing young at the beginning than it does like a teenager playing old at the end.

1:49:28The contrast between the scene where early on, where he tells Joey, you know, hit me, punch me. And Joey, you know, beats the, gives him a real good beating and even opens one of his cuts. You know, come on, that's not, come on, you can hit me harder. What's wrong with you? fuck a psycho woman hit your heart boom boom boom and the scene later the did you fuck my wife scene where there's no physical violence yeah but it's the the emotional violence between two brothers you know you're sick but you know you sick guy you know how how did where do you get balls big enough to ask me that where do you get balls big enough to ask me that i fuck your wife you know and and how hurt how much more painful it is to watch these two brothers give me the

1:50:20Griffin Newman:right answer hurt each other like that yeah yeah but the older brother hurt him you know i believe joey's indignity at the questioning and i believe jake's like oh well he's not saying it yeah so it must be true yes and you know jake probably did hear things and is it true yeah did did vicky suck Joey's dick like she says she did later and also and talks about how his dick is bigger than than Jake's at this point he had a bigger dick than you too she knows that she knows it or did it is it true at this point does Joe Pesci have a schwance

1:50:54David Sims:well I think he does and De Niro has a micropedes I don't think you get that Pesci energy from nowhere I think yeah Pesci's got a good hog at this point let's ask him how many years have passed

1:51:08Griffin Newman:joe.pesci at gmail.com

1:51:09David Sims:since Yes. Since the Frank Vincent incident. So you're like, he's been holding on to this for 10 years. Oh, I don't know if it's that. In the movie? Yeah. Oh, no. It's more like two, three years. Even still. Still. Years have passed. He's holding on to it. He must have heard something. Yes. You know. Even beyond that. He just wants the truth out of his brother. He just can't get over this idea. It's five years. I just think. Five years. There you go. Yeah. If you were this angry to attack this guy this badly, what other reason could possibly exist other than my wife at the center of it. Their relationship, the brothers,

1:51:43Griffin Newman:you know, collapses in 1950. That's when the fight is. He loses that final fight to Sugar Ray in 51. But he didn't go down. Yes, but you see, you know, Joey at home watching it knowing, like, it's because I'm not there as part of this. He's just kind of, like, he can't be controlled anymore. He just wants to be murdered in the ring essentially. Or at least to prove something by, like, taking this ungodly beating and not falling down. right like the cuts you know to pesci watching it at home where he's just it's not i mean i don't even get the sense that he's like i'm failing my brother but he is kind of like i understand that a piece of it he's unbalanced now he's right yeah exactly there's also another scene toward the end where you know this is post-arrest post-jail time he's now doing stand-up as the opening act for a stripper that he's fucking he doesn't have his own club anymore in a tiny dive bar in new york city Yes.

1:52:35And a guy is in the crowd heckling him, saying, you're not funny, you suck. And we know that Jake LaMotta, as we know him, would normally beat the fuck out of the guy. Yeah. But he doesn't. He just kind of agrees. He's like, yeah, I do suck. You're going to try to make me come out of retirement? Yeah. Yeah. He goes, yeah. You're pissing his drink for me, bartender. In other words, he's completely castrated. There's no part of him that is even fighting anymore.

1:53:02David Sims:I think beyond that. He knows he physically can't do it anymore. Right. But he chooses stand-up. There's the earlier scene where he goes to the club and sees the performance. And I think he recognizes something in that guy of like, this is the closest thing to what I do. You are fighting the audience. Right. And the command that guy has when he's able to throw off all these street jokes but land them is a thing he envies. And what is Scorsese's follow-up for Agent Bull? King of Comedy. Mm-hmm. Well, is there something in between? Or is it straight? That's a good question. No, it is. I believe it's King of Comedy.

1:53:34David Sims:Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Two years later. But it is a thing. I mean, clearly, right. A movie about a delusional comedian. Something in that sticks with Teniro. He's evolving. Yeah. Yes. There's absolutely, it's like a part two almost. Right. And that guy's much closer to being a successful comedian. LaMotta just like, it's back to what we were talking about. The rhythm's all wrong. You watch his stand-up and he's saying these jokes that are just a little bit off. There's the king of comedy, the spiritual sequel to Raging Bull. I kind of.

1:54:03Griffin Newman:It's part of a trilogy with Taxi Driver. Right. You know, like just like De Niro trying to plumb the depths of like a psychology. We are like transfixed by but terrified. Because why? A guy obsessed with being a different type of guy. But you know why though? Because he must be fascinated with De Niro. Yes. Scorsese's probably fascinated with De Niro. I guess so. Trying to crack him a little bit. Trying to crack that man.

1:54:24David Sims:Well, you watch Mean Streets and it feels like watching a director fall in love with a star. You know, it feels as extreme as Bogdanovich introducing Sybil Shepard or whatever. There is those that introduction. It's like, what the fuck is this that I have found? And I'm going to spend the rest of my life chasing this and studying this from all angles. And of course, De Niro, no doubt, is aware that he seriously stepped in some shit. Yeah. Getting to work with Martin Scorsese. No one understands him better than this guy. And it's not only about him. better it's that he's just one of the greatest filmmakers period end of story he's got the right guy in his corner it's amazing the symbiosis the whole thing rare rare rare rare rare um i love them stitching the meat talking about rare and pesci timing how quick they can do the stitch up on the cut there's little details like that uh nicholas colisanto coach from cheers yes yes This is his last movie role.

1:55:23And do we know what great actor is an extra in the film?

1:55:27David Sims:We looked this up right before John Turturro. John Turturro. He's in the first club scene. Yeah. They sit down at the table and who's sitting there? A very young John Turturro. That's his first credit. Yeah. But he doesn't say a word.

1:55:38Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah. That's sort of like the lingering element of the mob stuff, you know, that's in the movie still, but kind of. Sure. Tone down. Yeah. Because like, that's a different story. Yeah. Like we're trying to get inside the brain of this man. There's no doubt that the mob was, had heavy influence on New York's boxing scene in the 40s and 50s.

1:56:00David Sims:But that's the least interesting thing going on in this guy's life.

1:56:03Griffin Newman:Like the movie is kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

1:56:05David Sims:That's de Griguer.

1:56:05Griffin Newman:Yeah. Michael Botolucho's in this film. Really? It's like a soda jerk. Okay. Like, you know, just funny to think about. Yeah. Guys who had tiny little roles. There's a lot of people in the movie that are sort of hanging around. But it really is basically just the three. Yeah. Like, people like Frank Vincent, Nicholas Colasanti, they're in and out for little bits, right? His dad's in this movie, Charles Scorsese. This is the first one. For the first time. It's like one of the monsters.

1:56:37David Sims:And we talked about this in the Scorsese shorts episode we did on Patreon. But Italian-American and American boy really, I think, teach him the rhythm that he wants to replicate in his dialogue.

1:56:49Griffin Newman:Yeah.

1:56:49David Sims:It's how to get improv to get the feeling of that sort of conversational pattern in the back and forth. And so much of his parents fighting in Italian-American is the feeling of the family fight scenes in this movie. No. And that's the other thing about this movie. And like all great Scorsese movies, not all of them have this, but it's indelibly Italian. It is. American. Yes. Yes. A question. Is LaMotta in the movie? I thought at one point that he's the referee that hands he's definitely the belt over to I think that's who he plays to De Niro when De Niro finally wins the championship there's a shot of the referee walking toward the camera and I feel like that is LaMotta but I might be wrong

1:57:31Griffin Newman:maybe I'm wrong I might be wrong maybe LaMotta's not in the movie I'm not seeing anything actually I don't know not sure he was certainly there he said that De Niro got so good at boxing that he was like I think that guy could have like held his own in the ring Like he was impressed with him, but obviously he's also, you know, he's being a schmoozer.

1:57:49David Sims:According to IMDB, Lamada is not in this. Yeah. I couldn't find him either. Yeah. He does have like a weird semi-resurgence of acting roles. Lamada? Yes. He's in a 87 movie called Hangman. He's a detective in Maniac Cop in 88. He's in a movie called Mob War. So he does sort of, and he has like credits leading up to this. I can't believe you just said Mob War. Why? Do you know Mob War? I am in Mob War. You're in Mob War? No, I'm kidding. No, okay. You believed it, though. I did believe it. And it's believable. I did believe it. Like, as a nine-year-old, I would be in a movie called Mob War. It could have been possible.

1:58:27Sure.

1:58:28David Sims:You could have been Little Jimmy down the street in Mob War. Little Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy Palumbo. We haven't mentioned... Jim Palumbo. A wild thing about this movie is that it's produced by Erwin Winkler, who not only had produced New York, New York, Yeah, yeah, yeah. which was his biggest failure, but also produced the Rocky movies. Like he's, he's willingly signing off to make an anti-Rocky. I think that was part of the appeal.

1:58:52Griffin Newman:Yeah.

1:58:52David Sims:It's, it's bold of him though.

1:58:54Griffin Newman:Yes, it is bold of him. But I mean, he's obviously part of the problem with New York, New York is he's not someone who'd ever made a musical before. And so as a producer, they keep running like wildly over schedule and all this with this, at least he knows like exactly how to do it. But this was an expensive movie. Yes. Uh, sure. it cost 18 million dollars and it made like 25 it wasn't a success per se on release we can talk about that just to tell you a couple other things you know when they're in the final edit they have like some deadline it was opening on Friday and it's like Sunday they gotta be done they have a print where they have to get it like over to the lab by midnight and Marty doesn't like that there's this one scene where a minor character played by Marty's father is ordering a drink ordering a Cuddy Sark the whiskey and Marty's like you can't hear him saying it you can't fucking hear Cuddy Sark and they're like too bad we're done yeah we gotta get that and he says I'm gonna take my name off the film and they're just like Winkler apparently is just like yeah okay well you can take your name off the film but it's going to the lab yeah you know like they finally had to like calm him down and Scorsese's like I realized I was finally I was near collapse like I basically had walking pneumonia it wasn't a drug thing anymore but the movie like just wiped me out and it comes out it's not really a hit but it is well received there are some holdouts can be vincent can be in the times kind of panned it pauline kale who's obviously tough always tough to predict she kind of panned it how what in the world how what this is oh my what what right with With what righteousness can you pan Raging Bull?

2:00:39Oh, my God. That disgusts me. But as you said, people didn't have a frame of reference for it. It was. Who gives a shit? And yes, they did. You know, Citizen Kane, baby. Yeah. People didn't get Citizen Kane at the time. God, I hate. Oh, my God. This is enraging, knowing this.

2:00:57David Sims:Enraging Bull.

2:01:00Griffin Newman:Kinkley tries to shoot Reagan the day before the Oscars. and the Oscars get postponed.

2:01:07David Sims:Well, Scorsese shows up to the Oscars for this movie surrounded by bodyguards. Yeah, I guess that's everyone. So the security was just insane. He dressed them up in just fancy tuxedos and acted like they were just his entourage. But he was worried that he was going to get shot.

2:01:21Griffin Newman:Right. Thelma Scumaker wins the only other Oscar for editing and she says like, it was Marty's Oscar. I felt like I was winning for the fight sequences and those fight sequences were designed by him. You know what I mean? Like as much as I did a good job editing the film, like I felt like I was getting his trophy. Yes. Right. And obviously like Robert Redford wins and Ordinary People is an excellent movie and like was kind of an earthquake. It's like this is the thing I try to tell people when they're like I can't believe like Marty lost. It was a much bigger hit. It was a much bigger hit but it was also just like a new kind of movie in a way and it was talking about stuff that movies weren't really like starting to talk about yet.

2:01:57Griffin Newman:It's kind of like upper middle class like psychological crisis movie. And we know how much Oscars just will not respect comedy. Sure. And Ordinary People is a flat, straightforward drama. Yes. And this movie is Raging Bull, are the chances of it winning hurt by it being somewhat funny in parts. And it's also just a movie that everyone is not sure what to think about.

2:02:20David Sims:I also, I think Ordinary People is like a difficult film. It is an emotionally like challenging film. It's a good movie. But it ends with catharsis. It ends with the son telling the mom off and the audience doesn't leave feeling good, but they leave feeling like some progress was made here. And knowing what they've been told to feel and they feel it. Yes. No, this is subversive. This is provocative. Yes. I also just want to call out, Kathy Moriarty, most of the reviews are sort of like, where the fuck did they find this person? She gets an Oscar nomination. She follows this up with Neighbors, the John Avildsen, Belushi Aykroyd movie.

2:02:53David Sims:And then she gets in a really bad automobile accident and doesn't act for like another five years. And it does kind of really throw her career out of whack. She had like intensive back surgery, I believe. But also she just said that there was this thing of like, everyone discovers her, goes like, this is the great new ingenue. Immediately, can you lose the accent? But there was this real push of like, how do we get rid of the thing that made you unique in the first place? That's sad. That's unfortunate.

2:03:21Griffin Newman:She's still working to this day. She owns, I don't know if it's still open, but she owned a very popular pizza mulberry street mulberry street pizza in beverly hills yeah uh i think four locations i think in south southern california so uh that's you know like the film i would say is It's pretty quickly, though, I think highly. You know what I mean? It was the most nominated film that year. Yes. And it's just kind of like maybe the financial thing is not, you know, obviously a movie like this pays long dividends when it becomes such an established classic and all that. The next one, King of Comedy, that's the one where I feel like Marty, again, is starting to sweat.

2:04:04Griffin Newman:And then, like, the next two movies he makes are both kind of like, well, I got to make something. After Hours and Color of Money. I need to get back in good places.

2:04:12David Sims:Yes.

2:04:12Griffin Newman:uh and obviously i love both those movies but like you know it's it's not until last temptation i feel like that marty is again making like his whatever i like a more direct vision of his agrees uh the box office game this film griffin came out on november i get it right uh 14th okay 1980 uh first in new york city uh you know in limited release but it is on the top 10 here okay at number 10. it must have opened at like the ziegfeld or something sure crazy perspire now Right. It's making$185 ,000. Number one at the box office. It's not a film we've covered, but we've covered works.

2:04:50David Sims:One of the writers on this, we've covered her directorial works. Okay. So it's either a Nancy or it's Nora. Is it Heartburn? Nope. Is it a Nancy?

2:05:02Griffin Newman:Yes.

2:05:02David Sims:I mean, she wrote it. Is it Private Benjamin? It's Private Benjamin. There we go. You got any Private Benjamin thoughts? Oh, I haven't seen that movie in a very, very, very long time.

2:05:11Griffin Newman:I haven't seen that movie in a very long time either. It's very fun. What I like about it is that it's kind of dark. It's kind of all over the place. It's a wacky movie, but it's got a... Opens with a death. Urbness to it. It's a fascinating film. It was a huge hit. Yeah. And it got Nancy Oscar nominations. It got three Oscar nominations total. And it's been number one, I think, for like two months. It's a big hit. Runaway smash. Number two at the box office. We just talked about it. Best Picture winner in 1980. Ordinary People. Ordinary People. Another big hit. So, you know, we're in this like, you know, so far, like we've got a comedy, we've got a drama.

2:05:48Griffin Newman:This is movies that have stood the test of time. Number three at the box office, which was, I would say, a flop. A film from a very, very good director, a female director of very few. Obviously, we're out there back then. But this was kind of her like mainstream swing and it doesn't work. It's a comedy and a drama. I don't know if you know this movie. I mean, maybe you do. It's a female director Who's the female Is it Penny Marshall

2:06:13David Sims:No she wasn't directing It's not like Joan Micklin Silver It's not

2:06:16Griffin Newman:But it's sort of It's more in that realm It's someone who had made An indie film in 1978 That is a wonderful Claudia Whale Claudia Whale Okay How are you Yeah And this movie Who had made Girlfriends in 78 Yes And this is her This is her studio film Yes It's from Columbia Okay The stars are Michael Douglas And Jill Kleberg Ooh Charles Grodin in a supporting role Oh what's this movie called It's got It's got a little bit of an anonymous title. After this, she only makes TV movies because it's kind of like, well, that didn't work and you're a lady, so.

2:06:46David Sims:It's not starting over. No. It's not seems like old times. I'm throwing out other movies that have posters with two smiling actors. It's got a song that's sung by Diana Ross

2:06:54Griffin Newman:and it's named after the song. What's it called? It's called It's My Turn. There we go. But it was kind of bodied by critics. It even rudely got like a golden raspberry nom in like the sort of early evil years of that organization. And it was a one strike year out on her career. Very much so. it's like Jill Kleberg's like a divorcee maybe or she's like a professor and then she meets this like widowed dad who's played by Michael Douglas and they have a you know romance I think you know it's pretty low stakes in a way but I've never seen it number four at the box office it's one of your favorite films of 1980 it's one of my favorite films I think it's your favorite film by this director we've covered it on the podcast is it the movie Thief nope nope that was a good guess solid guess yeah it's another best picture nominee of the year and it's another kind of like smaller director making a

2:07:45David Sims:more mainstream film smaller director making a more mainstream film we've covered it on this podcast it's one of your it's one of Griffin's favorites it's one of my favorites and I ranked it as their top film you think

2:07:58Griffin Newman:I think this is your favorite of his films yes and he's obviously he's a totemic director he recently died recently died yes he recently died he did it was sad like recently like last year oh last year and he's one of my guys uh no I would say not as much one of your guys maybe more one of my guys than your guys given that we covered him on the show I feel like he's more one of my guys but this is your favorite the biopic it's a biopic whoa yes um it's a true story

2:08:33David Sims:biopic biopic it's a true story biopic in 1980 it's not it's not star 80 no Bob Fosse didn't die last year why am I blanking on this? I don't know because it's sort of one people forget

2:08:50Griffin Newman:it was nominated for 8 Oscars so it tied Raging Bull for the most noms that year actually who's the star of this picture? give it away

2:08:57David Sims:John Hurt oh it's the Elephant Man it is my favorite you're right nominated for eight Oscars, one none. Calling it a biopic, I don't think of it that way. But it is.

2:09:08Griffin Newman:No, of course it is. And yet it is. Of course it is. So that's also, I think, more of a hit in a way than Rating Bull was. Number five in the box office is a film from one of your favorite directors, but I think it is not one of your favorites of his. It's sort of a more mainstream movie from him. It's not Popeye. No. You love that movie. It is a movie I love. Who's maybe your favorite director? beyond Robert Altman

2:09:36David Sims:beyond Robert Altman is it Lumet no that's another choice obviously for you it's not Verhoeven no

2:09:43Griffin Newman:this is like an obvious it's a pretty big guy for you you want to do him on the show I've worried it would be a little samey um

2:09:51David Sims:you've worried

2:09:52Griffin Newman:I think he's a great

2:09:53David Sims:filmmaker as did Martin Scorsese you've worried that it would be samey I've wanted to do him what why am I blanking on these today Okay. Give me something else. Is it Gilliam? No. No. What's the genre of this movie? It's a crime thriller.

2:10:10Griffin Newman:Okay. Hmm. Yes. It's got a sort of, you know, it's like him doing his version of a crime movie. Sort of like a popular. Oh, this is Gloria. John Cassavetes' Gloria. There we go. Which is a film, I just feel, it's not like you don't like Gloria. No, I love Gloria. But it's not your favorite of his? It's not my favorite, but it's up there. Okay. I love Gloria. I mean, it's a great movie. Yeah. Rules. Why did I think you didn't like it as much? I have no idea. Okay. All right. Yeah. All right. I'm wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I love Gloria. Do you not like any Cassavetes movies? I've never seen Love Streams.

2:10:42Griffin Newman:I like Love Streams. Yeah. And I've never seen Big Trouble. Big Trouble is the one I still haven't seen.

2:10:47David Sims:Right. Otherwise, I think I like them all. Do you like Cassavetes? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I guess I feel like I want to say every time I've watched a Cassavetes film I feel the this is weird to say but I feel the camera in a weird way if that makes sense he makes the camera announce itself a little bit and it kind of takes me out yeah

2:11:24Griffin Newman:but I'm not wrong that Gloria is like you know him being like it was him trying to play the studio game yeah like can I make you a more kind of straightforward like movie with a premise that you can kind of sell and it did fairly well did fairly well and she got an Oscar nomination

2:11:39David Sims:and she fucking rocks in it

2:11:41Griffin Newman:yeah but it still has plenty of people screaming while the camera is close to their face so don't you worry

2:11:46David Sims:and then the little boy

2:11:47Griffin Newman:won the Razzie I believe which was really rude this is it's the first year of the Razzies where they're like do we hate The Shining yeah you know and then like later even the Razzies are somewhat embarrassed by their first, you know, awards. Number six at the box office. So that was the five. Number six is Fade to Black. Okay. Which is a horror like comedy. It's like a weird Lindy movie where a cinephile starts to turn into like famous film characters to kill people. That sounds good. I've never seen it. It sounds very cool. I've seen it like written up as a sort of like forgotten cult classic.

2:12:24Griffin Newman:Very popular in France. and that's when you know a movie's normal of course number seven at the box office is the musical drama The Idol Maker oh yes the first Taylor Hackford film yes speaking of Ray which you were in yes correct

2:12:37David Sims:Ray Sharkey

2:12:38Griffin Newman:starring Ray Sharkey and Peter Gallagher

2:12:40David Sims:which Derek C. in France and Ryan Gosling kept threatening to remake somebody stop him I know it didn't happen

2:12:47Griffin Newman:I don't know anything about it except that it's sort of like about a singer like who becomes famous it's kind of like a fake it's about like a producer manager

2:12:54David Sims:I think it's about the one Oh, he's the idol maker. I heard a story about a party at Ray Sharkey's house in the early 80s in the Hollywood Hills in which a live pig was slaughtered. Ray Sharkey, one of the darkest figures of the post-New Hollywood movement. Yeah. Yes. I believe that story. If you go to Ray Sharkey's Wikipedia page, you'll believe any story about him.

2:13:18Griffin Newman:Number eight at the box office is The Stuntman, the great Peter O'Toole movie. Richard Ruff. Wonderful film. Yep. Number nine is a movie I've never heard of called Kill or Be Killed. Okay. Which is, oh, a South African martial arts film. Cool. That was called Karate Olympiad, retitled Kill or Be Killed and released in 1980 in the United States. Wow. Never heard of it. And number 10 of the box office is Raging Bull. Okay. So there you go. There we go. That's the box office of the year. A very interesting package of movies. People had interesting movies to show you in 1980. Things were happening.

2:13:52Griffin Newman:You know what I mean? Like Gloria, Ordinary People, Elephant Man are all in the top. Take your pick. It's a good Oscar year. It's a potpourri. It is a good Oscar year. Yes. Yeah. So that's Raging Bull. David, anything you want to plug? Plug? Start a podcast. I mean, plug? Oh, Jesus Christ. I hate to hear myself do this, but I'm in a sports film. It's my first sports genre film called Mr. Irrelevant. Thumbs out Christmas Day, a week after Doomsday and Dune 3. Perfect. Perfect time. Lots of people be in theaters. It's an alternative film to those big giant movies. Go see it. I hear it's lovely. I have yet to see it.

2:14:34I hear it's wonderful. Testing through the roof. Did we mention that? We mentioned it's testing through the roof. It's testing through the roof. So that's all I got. That and I'm playing a Grateful Dead show tomorrow night. This won't air. No, this won't air. This is going to come out in September. But I'm going to plug it. Mid-September. Knowing that it will be months late. You're playing... I'm playing at the Orange Lantern in Paramus, New Jersey. Playing Grateful Dead songs. With a band called Golden String Fiddle. Okay. By the time you hear this, I will have played this show. Okay. I just want to let people know I'm doing...

2:15:13That's what I do with my life. I play at places called the Orange Lantern in Paramus. Guitar? No, I play bongos, if you must know. Really? But I sing. The only reason I play bongos is because all I did was sing. You needed something to do with your hands. I was asked to pick up an instrument, and the easiest thing was the bongos. Perfect. Yeah. And an incredible bongo player.

2:15:38David Sims:I believe it. You have the intensity for it. I'm a real bongo boy. Thank you for being here. Dude, you guys are awesome, man. And this one, it really is an honor to be asked to do this particular film. We were floating names. We were floating ideas. And the second your name came up, it felt kind of right. I'm just glad, like, you've never asked me to do, like, a Holocaust thing, drama, or some sort of, like, Jewish-themed thing. No Talmudic movies. I really appreciate that. Yes. I figured you guys have that covered to some extent. Do you feel like that's usually what you get asked to do? I just don't know.

2:16:11No, I'm not saying that. I just don't like the idea that I'm the go-to Jew for that. I have no opinion on, on those films. Sure. Yeah.

2:16:21Griffin Newman:Oh, tune in next week for the King of Comedy. With Stavros.

2:16:25David Sims:Stavros. Yes. Yes. Straight up. The King of Comedy himself. Straight up. Love it. We're getting into it. Is Rupert Pumpkin funny? Sure. Our argument is almost. I know. He got close. Over on Patreon,

2:16:38Griffin Newman:a few days ago, we released our episode on The Last Waltz.

2:16:41David Sims:Hey, we did it We're sorry it's on Patreon This is the longest filmography we've ever covered What are you doing beyond The King of Comedy? You're doing Last Temptation? We're doing everything We're doing everything That's why Last Waltz is on Patreon You're doing What is that? The one with Brad Pitt The one with Brad Pitt Yeah! You gotta do that one What's the one with Brad Pitt? You said everything Isn't it with Brad Pitt? I don't think so You think he departed? He's gone to India, no Seven years in Tibet You're confusing Seven years in Tibet You're conflating

2:17:13Griffin Newman:Kundun and Seven Years in Tibet Two films That angered The Chinese government That were released By Hollywood The same time Similar times Right around 97, 98 You know I've never seen Seven Years in Tibet I haven't either That was a classic Where people were like Wow the studio's really Taking a risk with this And Pitt's taking a risk And China's like Condemning the film And it came out And everyone was like Beautiful mountains You know The mountains Look fucking great In this thing Unbelievable And how about the film? I mean, he climbed over all those mountains. Like, they had nothing to say about it.

2:17:44Should we watch it as per? Sure, I'll check it out. Wait, who's the lead in Seven Years in Tibet? Brad Pitt.

2:17:48Griffin Newman:Oh, it is Brad Pitt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's not Marty. He didn't need a Scorsese movie.

2:17:51David Sims:No, Scorsese did Kundun. Seven Years.

2:17:53Griffin Newman:Who's the lead of Kundun? A child. A young Chinese man. I mean, like some playing the... Well, you see why it's an easy... Of course. Right? It would be funny if Pitt was like, I will be playing the Dalai Lama. Any questions? Pretty bold. Pretty bold. No, he's playing like a, you know, right? Like, he was like a mountaineer who climbed Everest. I think he was there for like six years, eight years.

2:18:22David Sims:Something like that. Thank you all for listening. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being here, Crummy. Thank you for having me. It's a lovely, this is great. There's a brain trust here. That's what we call ourselves. we call ourselves the brain trust please remember to rate review and subscribe and as always David yes you fuck my wife you fuck my wife look at me look at me look at me answer my question you fuck my wife you fuck my wife what kind of a question is that

2:18:55Griffin Newman:I'm mad you asked the question when you get both beginning

2:19:04Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley

2:19:10David Sims:Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas And our associate producer is AJ McKeon

2:19:16Griffin Newman:This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy Research by J.J. Birch Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in The Great American Novel With additional music by Alex Mitchell Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds Our production assistant is Minnick Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack.

2:19:55Griffin Newman:This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Production.

2:20:27Griffin Newman:And we're back. a reason to live.