SpaceX IPO Draws More Than $70B in Retail Orders

22:26This was a frontier we really believed for a long time, and I did growing up. It was only a place for governments to build and innovate. NASA, putting a man on the moon, all that stuff was never something the private sector could do. But what we're seeing now here is undeniable. The private sector has been able to accomplish a lot, and I think it's only going to accelerate. And I do think the overall market is potentially that big. I think when we're talking about human ambition, there is no limit to that. When we talk about the opportunities in space as low earth orbit alone just becomes more accessible, we're unlocking pharmaceuticals, we're unlocking biotech, that's going to help us here back at home.

23:02And that's the stuff that gets me fired up as an investor. That's what gets me fired up as an American. I want to see that innovation come and help us live better lives here on planet Earth. So is having SpaceX as a public company, is that a good thing for your space investments? Because it shows there's a pathway for public markets. Or is it a bad thing because so much money is going to get funneled into this IPO that maybe it leaves less room for some of the other space companies? Well, the good news is where I like to invest is still so early. Very few of these companies, you know, companies like Stoke or Astroforge are thinking about going public quite yet.

23:34They're still thinking about building and shipping and launching. I do think you're going to have undeniably a whole fleet of newly minted millionaires, multi-millionaires, as well as investors. So not just the early employees, but also the investors who believe in space tech, who are now going to have capital to put into the sort of next wave. And I think we've seen that play out in tech before, and this will be no exception. And I do think that all continues to accelerate all of us in building the space economy that we're hoping for. Building a space economy, though, it is something that certainly takes time.

24:06And I just wonder if there is room for disappointment. I mean, I don't mean to harp on sort of the crazy numbers of it all, but is there a fear that it gets too overhyped? A SpaceX IPO is just too large and there's some disappointment and it sets the project back to humanity, what you're talking about. It sets it back in some time. I do think it is important to have this temperate expectation. I think on the one hand, folks have to balance, one, what I think is a very important, almost unbridled ambition for human progress, which is, I think, a very important and noble and great quest. And at the same time, the realistic expectations, everyone should obviously do their diligence, do their own underwriting, all that important stuff before making any kind of stock decision.

24:46Thank you for the legal disclaimer. You know, compliance is happy with me. But at the end of the day, I do think what we're talking about here is creating very real value. I know even you think about anecdotally, the difference a person has once they've taken a United flight with Starlink. Like there is a there's a very, very different feeling about how you interact with technology when you've experienced just a little fraction of what the space economy can do. And I do think as we start to unlock pharmaceuticals and biotech that could really only be done in zero G, we're talking about, again, saving lives, improving quality of life, things that I know provide a real economic value, but at the same time help us live that Star Trek future I think a lot of us grew up wanting.

25:27So I think be exuberant, be excited, but at the same time, obviously, you know, be thoughtful in how you're underwriting this stuff. It's not just obviously SpaceX that's IPO. We also have OpenAI filing. Anthropic does as well. And these are companies that have had a lot of VC backing. In fact, so much so, we were talking about this on stage, 65 % of VC money has gone to just 0.05 % of companies. Is something broken that those are the statistics we're faced with right now? It is a unique time. I think clearly as an early stage investor, you know, I am insulated from this a bit because they're the ones, these multi-stages are often marking up my early investments.

26:04And so, you know, it's I think where you start to see the challenge is a lot of these companies in a previous decade would have already been public. And because companies held off going public longer, the private markets became a place that was effectively dealing like a public marketplace. So you're seeing these valuations. You're seeing this increase. I think it is a positive for America and for the world that, you know, retail, that regular folks get access to these opportunities. I frankly wish it would happen sooner because I think historically, you know, people draw up, you know, the market cap of Amazon or revenues of Amazon or Google when they went public.

26:40And, you know, we're in a different world now where privately held companies are able to generate tremendous revenues and market caps before going public. But I do think I think this has been a long time coming. And I do think generally venture should be a place to be contrarian and right. It should be a non-consensus asset. And especially on the growth side, it's looking more and more consensus. So, look, those companies are about to turn public. We'll see what the next wave of private looks like. I'm certainly trying to do my best to be on the non-consensus and right side early. And I do think venture is healthier as an ecosystem when it's not looking like a couple of very, very concentrated bets.

27:17Well, usually what you say when there's a consensus is that that's a dangerous thing and it means that there can be a correction. Do you think that that's possible for this industry if everyone is crowding around similar bets? look your instincts are right and i know you always get in trouble saying why something is different this time yeah and with that caveat i still think something is different this time and and i know look i lived through the social media wave i naively thought the social media revolution that we were building with reddit was like the revolution it was not uh i naively thought mobile uh was a revolution it was not i mean it was but in a much smaller way compared to what this is.

27:53We have seen in just a few years technology go from an interesting novelty that could help you write like a press release to technology that could literally write code as well as or better than even some of the most senior experienced developers and really augments the output of folks. So there's a real technology here. It's a real shift and I don't think it goes away. And I also think it has, as I said on stage, a national security importance because so much of our lives are digital. Being able, you saw this with the way Anthropic thoughtfully rolled out mythos, like, you know, we used it first and foremost to shore up vulnerabilities that we had in our businesses here in America.

28:31And so even if it never got, even if AI never got any better than where it is today, you know, that is already incredibly valuable. And there's so much wood to chop as we look across so many businesses that right now don't have any software in them. This hotel, I am sure. Don't tell me this hotel is going to be an AI company, Alexis. No, no, No, but I am sure that whatever systems they're using right now are very bad. And software, as a layer of user experience, user improvement, should be able to level that up in a meaningful way. By the way, I do want to just ask quickly, because we have 45 seconds left.

29:06There is this idea that the thing that survives in AI is just like live entertainment. And you have a lot of bets around women's sports. Has this whole revolution, this thing we're experiencing, just made you double down on that? Yeah, I mean, look, I was a rare voice five, six years ago saying this was an institutional great asset, not just sports, but also specifically women's sports. I love seeing this. I am certain five, 10 years from now, we will still watch no matter how good the AI generated highlights get. You know, watching the AI version of that Knicks final last night would do nothing for the human soul.

29:39Yeah, because it requires even though even if it was pixel perfect, if it didn't actually happen, it is irrelevant and worthless. So live sports has to be fundamentally human. No one is going to line up to see a bunch of robots, you know, play 18 holes of golf against each other where everyone hits a hole in one. The end state of this technology is some version of this perfection that no one's going to want to watch because sport has to be human. So I've been saying this for five, six years now. I'm only more confident about it. And I think what this technology does is it makes these assets more valuable.

30:10It makes them more engaging for fans. It improves training. It improves so many elements, but it does not replace mining aids. We're out of time, but should we just end with Nixon 5? Nixon 5. Nixon 5. That's right, Nixon 5. Look into the camera, Nixon 5. Perfect place to end it, Alexis. Thank you so much for joining me. Ed Caroline, Alexis Ohanian, the founder of 776 and Reddit.

30:30Caroline Hyde:Thank you very much, Danny Berger. I really want to check back in on markets, and I don't mean like what's happening in the here and now. We're like up eight tenths of a percent on NASDAQ 100. I call it like a modest rebound. Oracle is down on track for its worst day in six months because it warned investors it's going to have to tap equity and debt markets. It needs that capital caro. Like, it's like, can't build compute fast enough. But it's interesting. Like, if you just take a sec, calm it down. Most of the names on the NASDAQ 100 are higher. It's the hyperscalers that are lower. The software names are a little bit lower.

31:03Caroline Hyde:And there must be an element of, like, treading water to SpaceX's debut tomorrow. Definitely. Maybe people are still rearranging as to how much allocation they can have, how much money they've committed. But also, look, there's still hardware on the higher side, in particular in the chip side of the equation. And let's just talk a little bit about that, because questions are clearly around the cost of the AI boom for Oracle there, but also costs for you and me, for the American people. Inflation is spiking. With tech giants scrambling to build out data centers, memory chip prices have skyrocketed, driving a record spike in tech hardware and electricity costs.

31:36This is exactly the story that Bloomberg's Ender Current is helping tell today. You tell it through an individual who's helping small, medium-sized enterprises gain access to upgrading memory. And, I mean, he's just thinking this is out of this world. Yeah, indeed. I mean, this is where the AI boom is spilling over into real living costs. You mentioned, for example, I spoke to a couple of companies, one of them in Baltimore. He deals with small businesses. He does their IT services. So they come in the door looking for a memory storage upgrade or maybe even a new computer. And he's saying to them, look, because of the AI boom demand for chips, that's driving up the cost for the components he needs, like RAM storage, SSD, etc., driving it up significantly.

32:16And as a result, obviously, that means their upgrade job will be much more expensive to the point where he says he's telling some customers, look, you might as well go and buy a new computer or a new laptop. And the cost of the new computer or new laptop is also going up as a result. So these chips go into everything that we use in every walk of life and it's flowing through now to the inflation data.

32:36Caroline Hyde:I'm going to just read this, Ender, because I couldn't believe it. It's the AI summary of your story, but the memory squeeze will add 0.4 percentage points to headline inflation before it eases, according to Blueberg Economics. It is shocking to me that there is a single basis point. We're talking about a category of specific hardware and chips impacting inflation at a super substantive level. Like, I've spoken to you for years. You've been all around the world looking at different economies, different supply chains. Is that shocking to you? What have you learned in the real world economy about that data point?

33:13It's certainly an impact. I mean, the official data that we had yesterday, to your point, showed that the technology and computer components part of the inflation indicators was actually up by just about 15 % from a year ago. That's a record increase. So it is having an impact. Now, to be clear, obviously, it's not the only issue driving inflation right now. The Iran more, of course, because the impact on energy is the bigger driver. But it is filtering through in a meaningful way. and economists are saying it's going to be enough to keep inflation simmering at a point where it wouldn't otherwise be.

33:50And that's a critical thing. And of course, that's a real worry for policymakers. So the AI inflation story may not be the only factor in terms of what's keeping US inflation elevated, but it is certainly one of the factors and that's a direct consequence of this AI boom that we're all seeing.

34:05Caroline Hyde:And when we were discussing markets a moment ago, I should also say, of course, the war in Iran and the Middle East is like a driver, a catalyst, and what's happening in equities at least today. Bloomberg's end of current in D.C. Awesome. Really appreciate it. Thank you. So stocks staged, let's say, a cautious rebound with tech stocks somewhat leading the way. Like as we were talking about, there's a little bit of bifurcation in the bucket of the NASDAQ 100. But concerns about a potential escalation, right, of the conflicts in the Middle East are keeping investors a little bit on edge. Oil prices are still a factor.

34:36Caroline Hyde:Again, I still think SpaceX has quite a lot to do with this. Let's bring in Christina Hooper for her read, Chief Market Strategist at the Man Group,$228.7 billion in assets under management. You know, I say this quite often, particularly for the tech sector, like one session a market does not make. But what is the story you see in the numbers on the screen in front of you right now? Well, I think there is a lot of excitement around SpaceX. This is, I think, creating a very significant level of positive sentiment, so much so that markets can really look through. all the geopolitical risk and say, hey, this is something exciting.

35:15This is something that has incredibly long-term, potential long-term. It is, you know, it is to me a story about markets that want to focus on the positive, and this is giving them a reason to be positive. As a market strategist, Christina, when you're getting bombarded with calls, Should I buy into SpaceX? Should I be looking at OpenAI and Anthropic and all the IPOs that might be coming? What is your answer? My answer is I think we need to think of it in terms of the context of a diversified portfolio. There is certainly potential there, as I talked about. There's growth opportunities. We also have to recognize that valuations are high.

35:56And when valuations are high, stocks are vulnerable to a re-rating, especially in an environment in which you have an enormous amount of geopolitical risk. Now, that may impact some stocks more than others. But typically, when you have rates going up, that exerts downward pressure on equities, particularly long duration equities like tech names. So if you're looking out far longer term for your earnings, for your payoff, so to speak, then you could very well see some kind of a re-rating.

36:28Caroline Hyde:Christina, part of the SpaceX IPO equation is slightly mechanical. So some of the index fast track inclusion, right? And in very simple terms, the passive funds will have to, by their own bylaws, rebalance. Could you explain that a little bit? A, the basics of it. But when you're a strategist looking across assets, what you think will happen as a result of that? Well, essentially, you have a built-in demand that is vast. Because if you think about all the different owners of index-like fund products, you have this captive audience that will be owning it as part of that. And so that certainly changes the dynamics.

37:09That's very different than the other IPOs we've seen. And again, it's part of why there's so much excitement and there's a view that this stock price could go up quite significantly from here. Isn't it an irony that Elon Musk has always pushed and railed against passive?

37:25Caroline Hyde:Yeah. But passive is going to be such a driver of demand more broadly for the IPO, but so too is the commitment to the retail investor. Have you done much strategic thought around the impact of retail investor right now on broader markets? Because they're a loyal bunch quite often, but they can also ride in on meme themes and cause more volatility. Oh, absolutely. I think that's why there are so many firms that essentially monitor Reddit and other sites. I think that was learned from GameStop that retail investors are quite powerful. Now, I think what we're seeing now is that retail investors are seeing opportunities in technology, particularly AI-related names, and they have put their full force behind it.

38:10That's not to say we haven't seen institutional investors as well. And so that has created quite a dynamic. And that is really, I think, largely behind the kind of incredible recovery we've seen over the last couple of months. I mean, the returns are really quite astounding.

38:24Caroline Hyde:I would love to dwell on this, if that's OK, Christina. So Bloomberg reported that there was$70 billion of retail demand for the SpaceX IPO, though we don't actually know the allocation yet. So it's oversubscribed. But one of the theses that the existing investor base of SpaceX tell me over and over again, retail understands the story better. They're more likely to hold on to the shares for longer. And that will support the valuation over a longer time period. You model for that? Do you share that belief? So I think it can be a double-edged sword. Yes, retail does understand the story. That's part of why there's so much excitement around it and there's so much retail demand for the IPO.

39:06But by the same token, because retail understands the story, if we see cracks form in critical businesses, then you could see retail react to that. Again, we have that sort of built-in demand because of the placement in the index. But having said that, you could still see a lot of volatility. you could see some kind of re-rating in this environment if you see yields continue to go up and if you see retail investors just become risk-averse in general, which could easily happen. Christina Hooper, always so measured, always so thoughtful. Thank you for coming on. Man Group, chief market strategist there.

39:43Coming up from Snacks to Software, GoPuff partners with SpaceX AI for a new shopping experience. We speak with the GoPuff co-CEO and why SpaceX AI, why their offering, why growth. This is Bloomberg Tech.

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40:49Caroline Hyde:As SpaceX heads towards its IPO tomorrow, investors are betting on more than rockets and chatbots and satellites. The company says enterprise AI represents a$26.5 trillion opportunity. But can Grok actually win corporate customers? One of the few companies putting it to work is GoPuff, which built its new AI shopping assistant on XAI's models. Joining us now is GoPuff CEO, Rafael Ilishayev. it's a great case study, right? I think a lot of people read the prospectus and were like, okay, the future of SpaceX AI is enterprise AI, but they have struggled a little to get people to use the models in a meaningful way.

41:30Caroline Hyde:You are. Just explain the basics of the relationship and what you've actually done with the technology. Yeah, Ed, Caroline, thank you so much for having me. So over the last 13 years, GoPub has built infrastructure to be the fastest and most affordable player in delivery. And our partnership with SpaceX and the product that we co-developed called Go solves the final friction point that we really had, which is the consumer shopping experience. So we thought about this differently than I think a lot of other folks. It's not just an LLM wrapper that's built within our app, but in fact, it's a co-developed experience where it's a whole new consumer product where you can shop via voice.

42:13You can talk to it, have total conversation like you would have with your best friend. Go will build your cart. So if it knows enough about you, it'll actually develop and build the whole cart. And it has this TikTok style scrolling experience where you can scroll and discover new products that are hyper personalized and cared for you. So this is a whole new experience that we co-developed together with SpaceX over the last year. And Rafael, what's interesting is when you're using data from X, you'll know that I'm all in on the next Sim5 game on Saturday and suddenly I'm being offered chicken wings or I'm being offered chips or whatever it might be because I'm ordering GoPuff on that moment on the Saturday.

42:52But from actually embedding within X and within Grok, did you push away other relationships? Did you decide no thanks OpenAI, no thanks Anthropic? Did you look at doing it with competitors? You know, this kind of relationship that we had and the kind of product that we wanted to build, this wasn't just a plug-and-play that we could have done with anyone. So we looked for folks that had the right technology, and SpaceX has amongst the best technology both for voice and imagine, and a partner that was willing to co-develop this whole new consumer shopping experience for us. So this was a long 10, 11-month process that we co-developed together with a partner that was willing to work with us, even as early as this morning, talking with our engineers and co-developing this thing together to make it even better.

43:42So we were looking for a partner that had the right technology, which SpaceX is, I think, cutting edge and the best both in voice and in image generation,

43:51Caroline Hyde:and a partner that was willing to co-develop this new product together. Could you talk a little bit about how the economics of it work? Like, how does XAI price things with you? It sounds also a bit like you get good access to the forward deployed engineers, like daily access. All of that is a big factor right now because everyone is counting the cost of tokens. Yeah, yeah. So it's a strategic relationship that we built together with SpaceX AI from day one. And the way that we thought about the scaling is we wanted a provider that can provide, you know, a super high quality product, both across voice and image and is arguably the lowest cost provider.

44:33So we built a relationship that scales.

44:36Caroline Hyde:They are the lowest cost provider. You benchmarked against OpenAI and Anthropic on the cost as well. Yeah, we looked at a lot of players when we did this and cost was one of the factors here. But the quality of the product and the willingness to co-develop this together, all of that kind of gave us a lot of confidence to work together with SpaceX. And I think the product kind of speaks for itself. If you play with it, I think it's second to none from a consumer AI experience. I mean, Rafael, there's interesting reporting out over at Wall Street Journal, for example. There's a thought that OpenAI might be doing some drastic price cuts in particular, basically the cost of its product.

45:15People have been wonderfully token maxing and suddenly realizing how expensive that is. and they want to do that perhaps ahead of competitors like Anthropic. Are you seeing return on such AI investment? Is it really driving growth for the business? You know, we're a week in to Go launching. And I'll tell you, a lot of the consumer metrics really early on are great. You know, basket size is up and frequency within the first week is up. But what's even more special is the kind of conversations that our consumers are having with Go. You know, we saw a conversation earlier today with the mom saying, hey, my kid, go, my kid is sick.

45:53Can you help me? Or a conversation a few days ago with someone asking, hey, I'm hosting a barbecue for six people. Go, can you help me? And that kind of relationship that we're building with the customer is kind of very special. And I think those kind of relationships are the ones that are going to win and lead to ultimately better KPIs across the board. Rafael, it's great speaking with you. Rafael Elias Shea, who is the co-founder and co-CEO of GoPuff. I appreciate the take on Grok and AI and SpaceX AI, but there's a lot to talk from governments around the world at the moment about adopting AI.

46:26Many countries still haven't delivered on that adoption. That's according to OpenAI's head of countries and the former UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne. He sat down with Bloomberg Tech Europe's Tom McKenzie from the Founders Forum in the UK.

46:39Caroline Hyde:I think you are seeing what is true is that many governments haven't yet really delivered on the adoption. They've talked about it. They've got ambitions around it. But they're still in the process of delivering. Now, I know I've been in government. Things take a while. But the governments, I think, that do adopt more quickly will be the big winners. They'll be the winners in their national economy, winners in the quality of their public services, and winners intentionally in like where their country is going to be over the next century. Coming up, many things about the SpaceX IPO have been unusual.

47:15Caroline Hyde:We're going to talk through the mechanisms of this public market launch next. Ready for liftoff, etc., etc. This is Bloomberg Tech.

47:31Caroline Hyde:Breaking news crossing the terminals. SpaceX preparing to sell$75 billion worth of shares, at least a$5 billion order coming from BlackRock. That's according to the Wall Street Journal citing sources. Bloomberg had reported, right, that there were several institutions that had placed orders for$10 billion worth of shares. The allocation will get worked out in the next 24 hours through to tomorrow morning, pre-trade. But BlackRock, according to the journal, at least$5 billion. Maybe it goes up. We'll see. There are some big orders coming from institutional but also from retail, Ed. And that is today's big number.

48:09More than$70 billion. Retail orders for SpaceX's IPO have actually topped$70 billion according to sources. And while individual investors are expected to be allocated for at least 20 % of the available shares, at a$75 billion IPO size, many are going to be left unfilled. That's just one of the rather unusual things about this listing. Joining us to discuss the IPO mechanics, the market impact, the thesis, Brian White, Managing Director and Co-Head of Tech Investment Banking over at Piper Sandler. You're not one of the banks working on the listing, which frees us up to discuss things at length with you, Brian.

48:41And I'm so fascinated by some of the technicalities because you've put in your notes, look, this is a very small float. $75 billion is enormous, a record IPO. But compared to the valuation of the company, very limited amount of how many stock we get access to. Is that an issue? Well, it is. It's about 4 % of the float, and there's overriding demand. You're seeing demand from retail and institutional, as evidenced by the BlackRock order right there. But over time, hopefully they will continue to sell more and more. But right now, it looks like the demand is quite high, and they could probably actually increase the amount that they want to raise.

49:18And I'm sure that that's something that the underwriters are thinking about as we speak.

49:21Caroline Hyde:Ryan, they did the unusual thing and set out a price pre-Roadshow 135. 35, how do you think the bankers, the potential investors and everyone else responded to that behind the scenes? Well, first, what they wanted to do is to back into what they believe is an appropriate valuation. And that's a valuation based on all the facets of the SpaceX business. Number two, SpaceX is unique and it's led by probably one of the best entrepreneurs of all time in Elon Musk. And there is tremendous demand for it. And instead of the normal mechanism where you're trying to determine how to price based on where you think demand is and what the market values that they've determined the price from the outset.

50:01What that's doing is putting an artificial floor on where it's going to be. But what it also may allow for is a very, very large pop for retail investors tomorrow. And I think that that's going to be what we want to watch, just how much it pops at the open and where it sustains itself, because much of retail may see such a large pop that what they decide to do is to sell down throughout the day tomorrow. But Brian, aren't there limitations as to how much retail is allowed to sell out, or at least some of the brokers that they buy through will punish them if they sell on the first day? Well, we've never seen an IPO with this much retail allocation.

50:37And so 20 % at least is going to retail, and the retail is going to be able to have access to sell. Now, what you may be referring to is some of them may have some issues with future IPOs, but most of the retail that's in this IPO is probably not necessarily planning for much more IPO investments. You really think they're not going to be in Anthropik or OpenAI if they want to buy into XAI? Well, they would like to be, but it's unclear if OpenAI and Anthropik will actually follow a similar mechanism.

51:04Caroline Hyde:My instinct is they may not, but we shall see because this is setting a new precedent tomorrow. Brian, we reported yesterday that pre-float SpaceX has IG rating from the three main agencies. To you, how much of a signal of that is that they will very quickly go back to the markets and raise more money through any mechanism available? I mean, I think it's a tremendous signal. I think that they are going, look at the burn that they disclosed in the prospectus. Look at the ambitions that they have, particularly with the XAI part of the business and with their vision about where they want to see their AI business and their space business over time.

51:41This is a business that will continue to consume massive amounts of capital

51:45Caroline Hyde:and it will continue to need to access the public markets to raise that capital. You didn't get a brief on this. We're being transparent about that. But is there a way that Piper Sandler can play this IPO event? Well, what we're trying to do is just continue to advise our clients about where defense technology is heading, the exciting things that is happening in space, the future of defense. Those are the areas that we're spending a lot of our time. in terms of the future opportunities around SpaceX. It's something that our team is very fixated on, but we're not participating in this IPO tomorrow.

52:20Caroline Hyde:Brian White, co-head of technology investment banking at Pipe Center. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Okay, you know, this is it, the final sprint, and this is it for this edition of Bloomberg Tech. Are you ready? I'm feeling ready. Yeah. Are you ready? Because you've got a long day ahead of you, Ed Ludlow. There's potentially coverage of these things priced. There's coverage throughout the trading day here on Bloomberg, after the trading day, and of course all things are right. You know, like the main takeaway from the guests, it's all premeditated. You kind of know what's going to happen.

52:48Caroline Hyde:Still, lots to review on the pod. There is Get That Podcast. You can find it on the terminal as well as online on Apple, Spotify, and iHeart. I have Ed here for another day in New York City. This is Bloomberg Tech.

53:01Caroline Hyde:The Big Tech podcast from Bloomberg News keeps you on top of the biggest stories of the day. My fellow Americans, this is Liberation Day. Stories that move markets. Chair Powell opened the door to this first interest rate cut. Impact politics. Change businesses. This is a really stunning development for the AI world and how you think about your bottom line. Listen to The Big Take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.