Brand is Everything: Founder Kate Prince on Building Ancient+Brave

0:00It was an incredible year. It was exciting and challenging and awful and terrible, all in the same breath and the same second of every day. It was like, can we keep going? Can we keep, you know, because the growth was so astronomical. It was like, can we support everything that we're trying to do?

0:21I've got a confession to make. I have developed a little daily white powder habit. Now don't panic, it's not that kind of powder. It's ancient and brave collagen and it has become part of my morning coffee ritual. I first heard about it from my new best friend Davina McCall who comes on my daily walks with me. She talks in my ears and tells me things like, your future self is really going to thank you that you started taking this now. And when I realised that this scaling brand that I'd heard of was sponsoring such a big podcast, I thought to myself, my God, they've got to be doing so well. So I got in touch with them thinking they will never apply.

0:57And they did. In fact, the founder, Kate Prince, swooped into the emails herself and said, I love Brand Growth Heroes. I would love to come on the show. And she did. So I thought we'd spend all of our time geeking out on product attributes and benefits and range and all those things that I love geeking out about. But actually, we spent way more time talking about brand experience and ritual and consumers and team and culture and how they haven't spent any of the money they raised, believe it or not. and how it's been a hundred little things that have changed their scaling rather than just one thing.

1:32I loved recording this conversation. I have listened back to it about three times already. I am learning so much. I think you will too. Enjoy.

1:43Kate Prince of Ancient and Brave, welcome to Brand Growth Heroes. Oh, hi Fee, I'm delighted to be here. I am so honoured that you've come on the show. I know you don't do a huge amount of podcasts. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome you on today. I discovered Ancient Brave as a consumer. I mean, I knew about you guys, but I discovered you as a consumer when Davina McCall told me in my ear on her podcast that I should be having it in my daily ritual, which I do now. Tell us how you've built this incredible business. Well, very quick background to me was I started life actually as a city lawyer, then I was a media lawyer, which actually kind of means that I've always been a bit more behind the camera than never wanted to be in particular in front of the camera so hence probably why I don't do lots of podcasts it's probably just my default um but it is lovely to be here today so Ancient Brave really I just had this obsession about brand and then I started looking into wellness I was also part of my life and being fit and staying healthy and this was around sort of 2015-16 we'd um actually my husband and I had left London I had two boys and I think this obsession for kind of grand and wanting to kind of create I've always had that kind of entrepreneurial buzz from like from being a youngster I think I was very one of the first that ever did like a bring them blue peter bring them by sale if you remember those but I just had this moment of I just want my own my own brand and suddenly wellness became the thing that I was starting to understand a lot more and it became my passion.

3:21Welcome to Brand Growth Heroes, the leading podcast for the founders of Challenger grocery brands. I'm your host, Fiona Fitz. My 25 years at global giants such as Nestle and Challenger brands such as Goo Chocolate Puds, Chobani and Strong Roots, as well as coached over 400 scaling brands, means I have the experience to ask the questions that truly matter and get you the insight that will inspire you to think differently and drive serious growth for your brand.

3:53And can I ask a question? Because we worked in the same office building, didn't we, in Shepherds Bush when you were in Endemol as a media lawyer and I was in Goo. The fact that you ended up in Endemol as a media lawyer rather than, say, in like just a straight law firm and that That office building was really cool and was full of buzz and you had you guys and you had Goo and you had a whole lot of other cool brands that were starting way back. And that was in 2003, 2004, 2005. The fact that you made the choice to be there and in that building, that buzz, that says something about who you were, that you weren't that straight, just normal, grey-suited lawyer.

4:28Well, I think when you start life as a city lawyer, I mean, everyone at the city law firm were recommending that I probably left and went and did PR or charity work or something else. I mean, I was working really hard as you do, as you kind of rotate through the departments when you're a trainee and you're working all hours. I mean, they definitely put you through the ringer, which is actually an amazing way to start life, actually, as a working life. I mean, you've got your work ethic from day one, really. And everything else after that is a bit of a breeze. But I think what I didn't like was it was very, very male, heavily male, heavily hierarchical, very much like you could only grow as you completed each year.

5:10So it felt like you were year one, year two, year three. And I was like, well, that doesn't give you room to have personality or to push ahead or to bring yourself into work. You just had to conform. So the minute I got a sniff of the TV world, I was like, there's something in this. There's And there's all these amazing creatives and brilliant people and human beings like running around in chaos and just such kind of joy of working. And I hadn't experienced that. OK, so this was always part of who you were. From a very early stage in your career, we're seeing this kind of, you know, this desire to let the spirit be creative and create something and be around people who were more creative.

5:51On reflection, you know, I think it obviously set me up to want to have my own business because I was working daily with creatives thinking, I'm kind of enjoying what I'm doing, but I'd probably prefer to be on the other side of the table where you're actually creating the ideas. So was it. But actually, even as a lawyer, we had to be incredibly commercial and creatively commercial because we were it was that moment in history of the launch of reality TV. So that was still new. This was 20 plus years ago. And it was a brand new thing for the world when Big Brother came out. And then it quickly followed with a series of other shows from, you know, The Farm to Comic Relief, Fame Academy and loads of other TV shows.

6:36but we've never done it before. TV channels have never done it before. So how do you draft a contract you've never done it before? What questions are you asking? What boundaries are we putting in place? What scenarios do you have to cover? Just so many, you know. And then obviously that obviously has honed down and got better and better and better, particularly, you know, looking at contestants and as human beings, you know, much more so, I think, is happening these days. And, you know, the discussion around mental health, etc. But in the early days, it was a bit wild west out there in TV land.

7:09What an amazing place to kind of grow up and learn about experience, I think. And so you got this love for brand. And then how did you decide to go out on your own? And how did you decide on wellness? And how did Ancient of Brave become? My husband and I, he was a photographer. And we left London, living in the countryside. And we launched a tea company. we didn't know an awful lot about tea but we knew people who did know a lot about tea and so my husband kind of took on the kind of tea side of things and I took on the brand and we've launched a very traditional English tea brand but it was so fun it was like creating characters we created this little sounds a bit odd but this frog who sits and he became a different character depending on the blend and different color range I think I sat in the Farron ball shop and just went through all their color sounds amazing and literally okay that can be try and color matched it to all the boxes so that was like just super super fun but I think it just gave me this absolute buzz to put something creative in the workplace and I think when you particularly when potentially we were at school you know and I went to um a comp a good comp in the back of Brighton in Hove and if you weren't an artist or a brilliant creative writer you essentially weren't creative and you were channeled down a different path, hence the law.

8:30I mean, you know, I really wanted to be a lawyer, but it wasn't even addressed to me or given to me that I could maybe, maybe somewhere deep inside of me have some inkling of creativity. So I think it was just that point in life I just wanted to really explore and see if I was any good at it. What happened then? So then doing wellness course, started taking collagen and products such as MCT and realizing that there was just quite a lot that was still coming into the UK obviously looking at the US that was uh way ahead of the game I was actually importing these products from the US you couldn't buy them in the UK and this was around 2017 um I actually then decided that was really really was something in this and I remember like chatting with loads of people and then going we've not really heard of this product it didn't really exist I was like I want to bring it I want to bring it but I want to do it in a way that feels very kind of British European is the most beautiful brand that you can imagine I remember walking into a health food exhibition at Excel and it actually kind of was very gray it was white packaging or pink packaging or blue packaging and very clinically led lacking personality lacking really anything that I would be wanted in my kitchen so that became the whole basis like around the packaging bringing the best most beautiful brilliant ingredients um to the brand and to the uk but also doing it in a way that felt original accessible beautiful brand as i've said but also like something that you would just want to have every single day and keep it in your kitchen not put it in your cupboard don't hide it away conversation point it had to be tactile you had to touch it feel it smell it and all of these senses became super important.

10:17And that just became part of, from day one, the impact of the business and our kind of what we call our everyday ritual. I'm thrilled to introduce Brand Growth Hero's newest partner, Jolson. Jolson is a leading B Corp certified commercial law firm that specializes in guiding the founders of scaling CPG brands. With long term relationships with clients like Little Moons, Trip, Eat Natural, Bear, Graze and Pulsin. Jolson is also famous for advising the Innocent founders in their landmark sale to Coca-Cola. And believe it or not, they still work with the Innocent founders at Jamjar Investments today.

10:54I'm especially impressed by how Jolson sets founders up for long-term success and by their commitment to championing female founders. Recently, I asked one of Jolson's managing partners, Phil Halesmith, to talk to us about how Jolson supports female founders on their scaling journey.

11:10Kate Prince:We're fortunate to have worked with loads of female founders who've had some very successful businesses, raised huge amounts of capital and are happy to give back. And that's part of what we're trying to do in terms of running a regular programme that supports them, both here in the office, but also enabling them to actually access getting VC financing. If you'd like to find out more about Jolson's female founder club, Hercules, why not go to their website, www.jolsonlaw.com or send a quick email to hello at jolsonlaw.com. Huge thanks to Brand Growth Heroes podcast sponsors, Jolson. Now let's get back to the show.

11:45What I love about Ancient of Brave is, and this is the truth, you know, it's sitting on my countertop and it looks a bit like I've got like a beauty product on my countertop, you know, rather than like a nutritional product. And in the morning when I put it in my coffee, because I know you've got lots of different products that I haven't tried them all yet, But the one I'm taking at the moment is the collagen. I kind of expected that I was going to have a weird taste, but I don't. And then I feel as I drink my coffee, I'm not just having my coffee. I'm actually doing something nice for myself.

12:16But the packaging really helps me believe that as well. It feels just like a really nice thing to do for myself. And also the fact that there seems to be a lot of care gone into the ingredients that you put into your products as well. when I follow you online and stuff it's like I don't know it's all very peaceful and calming and centering um and it it makes me feel something which is all about brand experience right it's so lovely to hear that because I think that is the connection that we absolutely want I mean you can connect to a product with your brain and you can look at how it functions and what it's going to do for you and the price point that you want to pay but actually you become obsessed by a brand you move from being a customer to being a fan the minute you kind of really connect your heart with a brand and I think that's so lovely if you know and I know that's what obviously a lot of our customer base feel and it's something that we really set out to portray as a brand to to make that connection to our customer but in a more meaningful way the fact that you chose Davina as a as a brand ambassador and the fact that she said yes to that and the fact that she promotes that I think she's probably I imagine that she's probably someone very careful about what she promotes you know yeah um certainly I am and I think well if she's saying it sorry but if she's saying it then it must be true because I don't think she'd lie for money you know I really don't and that makes a big difference to me as a consumer well I think um the point is she I didn't choose her she chose us oh really yeah I mean for sure I mean the reason we have any connection was because years ago like very early stage of the brand Davina was a you know incredibly kind and kind of spoke about us in the way that she only used at that point um she didn't really use supplements at all in her life because she was so kind of fit and healthy and that she was using collagen the only collagen she used was us and so we kind of just built that kind of friendship and connection really over the following few years and then it just made absolute sense to both of us that she became this incredible ambassador for us.

14:19And we work with a number of people, but it is a brilliant connection to us and back to our customer who can relate and, you know, love Davina. Interestingly, like who was the first person who noticed that she, and it could be anyone we're talking about, but this is always a really important moment in a business, isn't it? When you see that someone has put an order through and that someone is someone who's known and someone who's credible and someone who is choiceful about what they consume and relevant to the rest of your audience. Like, was that you? Did you see that? Or was it someone else in the business that said, oh my God, you're not going to believe who's just put an order through?

14:54I didn't even see an order come through. I think she bought it with an online retailer. She just went down the camera and said it on one of her lives, you know. And she is very generous like that. You know, she will talk about the brand she loves, but it has to be totally authentic to her. Okay, great. Like just wonderful story that you have that authentic connection rather than it being, you know, let's find an influencer. We won't work with people who haven't used the brand before or know the brand or love the brand or use the brand. I think any other way would feel so kind of disingenuous to us.

15:27It has to feel incredibly organic. And we want that kind of genuine kind of passion to come through. We work with a much wider number of people. And as you grow as a brand, that becomes part of what you do and it becomes inevitable, but also lovely because different people connect with different product lines. So we don't have like one brand ambassador either, which I think is also what differentiates us from some other brands. What we do is we connect someone who connects to one product because it enables them to be absolutely genuine about that product because they love that one product or two products or three products.

16:01But, you know, there may be other things in the brand or in the range that they don't take or it doesn't work for them. for whatever reason. I think that's a really good piece of insight for the listeners out there who potentially aren't at this stage of the journey. I never thought about it that way. I always imagined, yeah, you know, you'd have like a select group of brand ambassadors who all loved the entire range, but you're so right. That's genius. It doesn't really work like that, right? Even on a daily basis, I couldn't take the whole range. I mean, you know, so I think there's moments in your life where you lean certain products or you have certain lifestyle goals that you want to achieve or you have certain needs you know that you may just need a little bit more support with and that's where the products kind of come into play but other people can tell that story so beautifully I mean we work with Kelly Holmes for example in one of our product lines and you know and she tells that story such a fantastic way because it's just it's a different product to Davina's because it's really helped support her kind of bones and joints and helped her maintain her running and that's a different need state that she was in than Davina is in.

17:01And it's also So access to a different community, right? So you've got then all the people who follow Kelly and have a particular lifestyle and are passionate about particular need states and use cases for your products. And then Davina is people like me. And I didn't know that Kelly Holmes was because I don't follow Kelly Holmes necessarily because I'm not running. For sure. And we just worked with some incredible, incredible people, you know, like Rose Ferguson, amazing nutritionist. And she talks with such kind of eloquence and education and, you know, informed view on certain ones of our products, as well as, you know, Fern Cotton, we work with as well.

17:33She, again, leans into kind of a magnesium and ashwagandha because, you know, she lives that very, you know, sort of frenetic lifestyle, but also, you know, has happy place and does a powerful and amazing job with her community as well. Okay, sounds like I need to lean into some of the magnesium and ashwagandha, but if that's the case. I just said it so wrong, didn't I? I love how you said it. I said Ashwagandha. What is it saying again? It's Ashwagandha. Ashwagandha, okay. And it's spelled, you have to work out the spelling of it. It's got an H where it shouldn't have one. Yeah, but when you say it, you won't stop saying it.

18:10So tell me this. So that first stage, who was there in the company like briefly? You know, what did the company look like back then? And how long did that stage last before you moved into something where you realised, okay, this has got legs and it's moving and now all of a sudden there's revenue? and, you know, talk us through the different phases. That took a long time. Okay, good. I mean, I was kitchen table, me, 18 months. And just day after day, just kept going. And then I think I had my first person about 18 months in and she was part-time. My lovely friend Phoebe, who helped and brilliant.

18:47And she was writing a book at the time. So we'd often talk about her book, which was actually quite a light relief as well. and then suddenly you know it gets momentum and you start to grow but it was it was gen I mean we did 100 % probably growth year one year which um at the early stage I know is it's hard fought for you know and it's relentless and it's hard work sorry it was all d2c was it at this stage no we were from that that was we sort of did a soft launch throughout 2018 we got going really 2019 and then up to for those three years to the end of 2022 we were about 50 % d2c and 50 % b2b but I had not we but at that point end of 2022 we're on 1.3 million so I still hadn't really harnessed the d2c piece it was it was very early days we weren't we hadn't got fund you know we didn't have funding we weren't spending in meta or google we just weren't geared up like that it just wasn't my background so I didn't know what I was doing I was just working out and I was kind of more excited every time I saw us in like Selfridges or oh we're in Harrods or you know Ocado wherever we were and that became more was more exciting and I think I had to evolve and learn very quickly how D2C worked and the pros and cons of that but what it could do for your business which is incredible and that's when it kind of that was like stage one and by that point we were 10 of us but working out of my host house which is like basically the kind of shed house next to my house and there were 10 of us cramped into quite a small room but what I'd done is I'd hired I feel like really, really well that first stage.

20:21So we had like a brilliant graphic designer, you know, which made that everything look good, which was also really important. I hired two nutritionists who were innovating, telling the story, educating, etc. And I feel like that was just so vital for the brand. It's a really interesting choice so early on, like most people are saying, okay, we'll do that later on. So that was an integral part of your model from the beginning that you know you're going to own brand you're going to develop brand you've got your graphic design in-house and I'm sure it was more than just graphic design it's probably like real brand understanding growing or able to translate what was in your head right and then you've got your nutritionist were you leading the research in terms of which areas to go into or were they or was it like a collaboration meeting of minds when you're growing and there's like four or five of you six of you seven you're in the room there's no way you cannot be collaborative and shouting over each other, you're a jack of all trades.

21:20There is no way you just sit in your lane and do one job a day. You're problem solving. You're collaborating constantly. That's the only way to run a business at that point. But what I did do is look for people with skills that I didn't have. And so what can I bring? Well, I could bring some knowledge of wellness, but no education or background in it. I can bring my commercial skills. I can draft. I can write. I can I suddenly found that I had a creative output I could grow develop the brands but visually how could that come to life how could I keep the storytelling going and those were the amazing people many of which are still with us that I had from those early days I'm just thinking and sorry you're making my brain fire off in all sorts of different directions but storytelling so important with brand brand experience I mean it's everything isn't it but end them all was all about storytelling, all of those TV things.

22:13And that must have been like, I can see how storytelling would be more of a natural. It obviously was to you before you even went into Endemol, right? But it's been part of your life for so long. And so many brand owners that I work with, they have to, they might be amazing at, you know, setting up manufacturing and they're learning the brand piece as they go, but they haven't felt it yet. You know, I've got a brilliant founder that I work with and I'm sure he wouldn't mind me calling him out. He's got a fabulous manufacturing facility in Ireland that has a really, really brilliant, profitable production facility that he's built by himself and he's an engineer.

22:49And he's two or three years in and he's making cookie dough and no one else can make it like he can make it. But he's learning the brand piece. And he would say that that has been like something that he's got to get his brain into gear, his heart into gear, his feels into gear. And it's been a real holding him back. Whereas you had that and I think that is such a gift for a founder of a consumer packaged good business, if they have those feels from the beginning, it makes a difference, doesn't it? A massive difference. I mean, I think so. I mean, you have to have passion for your product, right?

23:22Otherwise, you know, no one else is going to have passion for your product if you don't. So your product has to be the best it can be. And that's what I feel like we set out to do. And I can talk, you know, for hours about the ingredients and the sourcing and the quality and the, you know, therapeutic nature of all of our products. But you've got to be obsessed by brand. And I think that's where founders come in, can come in late to the day. So if I'm ever talking to a brand new founder or a room of founders or people who want to launch something, I'm like, get obsessed by brand because brand is everything.

23:53And it's not just the look and feel, although get obsessed by that. Because if you don't, you know, it's the same cost whether you're, if you're producing packaging, it's the same cost whether it looks shit or it looks amazing. So make it look amazing. Put that effort in. and you know and that doesn't mean it costs a lot i didn't launch the company on a lot of money but i became i did become obsessed with how it looks and i'm still obsessed all the packaging to this day like eight years later still comes past my desk and i sign it off and and every little not not all the marketing by a long shot but the packaging itself that that's kind of still my baby and i'm like and i still want to get that right

24:35if this episode is inspiring you to think about new ways that you can drive growth for your business don't forget to click follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast app and even leave a review your small gesture has a big impact on me and my business and will be truly appreciated i love that when i was working with chobani in the states i'm hamdi ulukaya the the founder of chobani um greek yogurt now chobani's a massive food and drinks manufacturer rather than just yogurt but all of the packaging still and branding goes by his desk and it's a two billion dollar company because that is the face of the brand and that is what creates the experience until people actually consume it.

25:13But I love this I think it's really important we haven't spoken about this a lot on the show before and I think it's something that's very live for me right now is this idea of that journey to understand brand for the people who don't have it naturally it's not even understanding what good packaging looks like I think what I'm trying to do is summarize what we're saying here but it is actually feeling it in your bones and and knowing this idea that you can create a change in state in experience in someone's heart and in their minds not just in their stomachs or in their skin and it's really bringing yourself on a journey being aware that you need to go on a journey until you fully understand what that feel is for that person and then you know when you're looking at it what good looks like then you can deliver that as a leader, right?

25:56Well, again, that comes back to storytelling, I think. So like, what do you want to portray to the world? So, you know, we talked, we had the products, we've obviously grown out the product range, but it was like, how do you take the products? When are you going to take the products? Why would you take the products? What vehicle do you want to take the products in? You know, do you want a pouch? Do you want a sachet? Do you want a glass jar? And then it was like, why really, well, you've got to get to the why. So the why is like, how does it fit with my lifestyle and what is going on in my life that it needs support to take more product.

26:29And that is what we as a brand have become obsessed with. And that was from day one that was bedded into the brand. And we called it the Brave Method was how you take the product. And the Brave Lifestyle is how you use the product in your life. So we talk to our consumer as an individual, not one size fits all. We're like, one day you might this product, then you might have you know hormonal change hormonal shift something going on your life you may be recovering from an injury a surgery and there may be other products that you you may need or you might be on a fitness drive for example and i think it was really kind of looking at what drives the consumer to come to the brand but also what they like to do with their life so we did become obsessed we're obsessed by the customer do you talk to them do people in your team talk to your heavy users so we do we have like what we call the link circle so we get people involved testing new product lines on on our brave lifestyle we go out and do community projects so we're doing we talk about everything from kind of wild swimming through to forest bathing cacao ceremonies go on you know sauna rituals um and this is sort of bedding out into the community and the community take this on and then which i love and then and then suddenly they're using the products and we're getting messaging about we've had it we've just done a wild swimming and had a cacao ceremony so it is absolutely lovely to kind of see it playing out in real time as well but I think any brand should do that like really consider how the consumer is going to take your product and why they would want to do that that becomes a lifestyle piece and so when we talk about ourselves we we are brand led we're obsessed by the product but we're brand first okay I love it I love it it's not what I would have expected from a company that you would have called, had you not known them, a nutritional supplements company.

28:17It has a totally different feel. Do you think it's important to have everyone in the same room or in the same building? So I'm a bit old school. That's how I grew up. And yes, I actually have a strong sense that to have a seat at the table, you have to be at the table. Now, we work, I have had many different thought processes and people's views over the years and we're now with that team for 10 has gone to 140 and we are um engaging people who are in california and who are in germany and who are in spain and people coming down we actually are based in sussex and people are coming from london to come to us which which is delightful and brilliant and we're building a brilliant brilliant but I think so I've got more relaxed shall we say at working from home but I really like it when everyone's in I love it and so if we're going to employ someone in the UK I do have a bit of a can you at least come in three days a week.

29:24Okay see I'm so happy to hear this and I think I totally get the younger founders out there who are creating these nomad lifestyle stuff but I I wonder if they had the opportunity to in parallel experience what it's like to build a business when everyone's in three days a week. I wonder if they would then say that the nomad lifestyle is a better way for the business to grow. I really do think that if you're building a challenger brand, having everybody in the same place three days a week is absolutely crucial because you are all coming up with a zillion ideas and talking over each other and creating magic.

29:59Whereas if you're by yourself, even if you're on a Zoom call, it's not the same or a Teams call. I don't believe it's the same. I think it's going to come back around. I really do. We grew in 2023 from 10 to 35. And that was one year we had 703 % growth that year. I couldn't have done that if everyone was remote. So is that people or million? 10 to 35 is people. Wish I'd done that. That year, 2020, we went from one to 10 million. Oh my God, that's huge. 10x. 10x. We did 10x. But I really truly believe like the pace we move at. Of course, you can set up a company and be a nomad. And of course, they're incredibly successful companies.

30:41And success isn't based on profit. And it's not based on pace. It can also be based on purpose. And so you have to decide for your own self and your own team what works. So I'm not saying that the way I work works for everybody. And that's how you should set up your company. Absolutely not. I'm saying it worked for me. I love it. I love the connection. You know, I've worked in offices and I knew the office I wanted to create. And finally, we've just moved into a brand new office and it feels like home. We're on the river in a beautiful county town in Lewis. And, you know, I'm encouraging by offering this beautiful space as well.