Burnham prepares for power

26:59Yeah. How do you think it looks? Yeah, it looks good, yeah. I'm happy with it. So am I. Thank you so much, Luke. That's all right. Lovely. The door has opened. I'm walking down through a large cavernous block. Many thousands of people are leaving prison, some at the conclusion of their sentence, some early. They're walking in this direction, which is out. And the big question for them and society is how many of them will retrace their steps and come back in? Steph Jones, and I'm the founder of Onwards and Outwards. It's a charity with a mission to empty the prisons. And the way we do that is by breaking the cycle of re-offending.

27:40Because about 80 % of guys in prison are re-offenders. So prison hasn't worked. They come back in and it's a waste of life and it's a waste of money. So in your many schemes, how new is barbering and how important has XO Barbers become to your charity? XO Barbers is our second venture. The plan is to do five. We started with XO Bikes. Can you give me any data? Have you got a number of people who've been through the course and a number that have gone back into prison? About 250 people we train now across bikes and barbers, and about 150 of those will be on the outside and about 100 on the inside.

28:18So we don't have the data on the guys inside because some of them haven't been released yet, but six out of 250 people, to our knowledge, have gone back inside. So it's a re-offending rate of about 2 % versus allegedly 50, 55%. So that's a complete measurable success for you? I would say so, yeah. The taxpayer's got to be smiling about that, but that's not why we're doing it. It's just this place is full of talented people who've just had a rubbish start in life. This is all quite contentious with the British public, so we turn to the prison's minister, Lord Timpson. He says this scheme is brilliant.

28:56His family is famous for employing ex-offenders in their Timpson stores on the high street. He grew up with foster children whose parents had just been sent to prison. I asked him about the balance between the need to jail violent and persistent criminals for a long time and the need to rehabilitate to break the cycle of re-offending. And I began by asking what he thought of XO Barbers. Absolutely brilliant. Giving people skills, those skills that when you're released you can get a job and go straight. Do you get your hair cut in prison, Minister? Well, I've never been offered to have my hair cut in prison, but I would do.

29:31Although, ironically, in our family business, we have a small chain of barbers, which has a number of people who have been through the prison system. And yesterday, I went to the Timpson Barbers in Chester and got my hair cut by someone who's been through the prison system. How many prisoners has your family business employed, do you think? Ex-prisoners? Well, it'd be over 2 ,000. So at the moment, it's one in nine Timpson colleagues is someone we know who's been through the prison system. Although some customers think it's everybody, it's one in nine. Do you remember as a boy growing up with prisoners around?

30:02My parents were foster parents. My mum, that was her career. She died 10 years ago, but she fostered 97 children. And so a lot of those children came to us because their mum was in prison. It's always been around our lives, so I've always been pretty comfortable with it. Do you think there's a through line to what you have said publicly about women's prisons? Well, I'm really clear. I think there are far too many women in prison. I would love to be able to be in a position where we could close a women's prison because most women in prison have huge issues around being a victim. Over half of women in prison have brain damage as a result of being beaten up.

30:39And a huge amount of them have addiction problems, housing problems, and it's not always the best place for them. We need prison places for women, definitely. but far too many of them are just in this cycle of repeat offending, repeat offending, and we need to divert them away and help them. If you closed a woman's prison, would you think that you were doing something your mum would be proud of? Very much so. So you're really committed to rehabilitation, but I just wonder if you can address the listener who says that prison does work. Some people are dangerous. They need to be put inside and taught a lesson.

31:10Very much so, and some people need to go to prison for a very long time. But the problem we've got is that 80 % of offending is re-offending. So far too many people are leaving prison, committing further crimes and going back in again and again and again. And that has got to stop. That's why we should be looking at schemes like XO Barbers. A hundred percent. We need to give people the skills and the confidence. So when they're out, they stay out. But it's not just about skills. It's around helping them with addiction, helping them with housing on release, because these are complex people. And yes, they've committed serious offences and they deserve to go to prison.

31:43But also we need to help not go back again. are we still releasing prisoners early because the moj can't give us the figures at the moment for this year and we're already in may and that we're waiting for a new system to come in under the sentencing act but at the moment are we still releasing prisoners earlier than they were sentenced for if they reach the criteria well that's a complex question that's why i asked it a long way so the fact the answer is yes isn't it well it's a complex question the fact is we haven't run out of prison places we inherited the prison system it was a complete crisis we had less than 100 places one day and we've now got to a position where we are in a much better position and yes we are releasing some people earlier whether it's on tag or on different kinds of home detention because you can't run out of prison places that's really dangerous that's when you have the complete breakdown of the criminal justice system so we're in a much more stable position.

32:34I spoke to the Prison Officers Association who said there's a problem with recruitment there's a problem with retention maximum security prisons have the lowest standards they're overcrowded everywhere. We haven't got time in this interview to mop up all those issues. But given that you care so much about this sector, can you admit that it's extremely bad? I wouldn't say that. I can give you examples. I know that you're going to give me examples, but can you overall? So I will say it's a service that's very bruised, but it is improving, quickly improving. The momentum when I first started was everything was going wrong.

33:06Now virtually everything is going right, but we've got loads to do. The thing that I would say as a business person coming in is a lack of consistency. So there are loads of really good examples, but it's not consistent enough. Okay, I'm going to end by saying we've had high-profile prisoners killed in prison. We've had high-profile prisoners released in error. Can you just not admit to me that this is a sign of something going really badly? Well, things are clearly not going right, are they? When people are released and they shouldn't have been released, and we have, you know, the level of violence in prisons is too high.

33:35The level of self-harm in prisons is far too high. So that's why I'm doing this job that's why I've given up my job of running my family business to try and sort this out because when I finish this job I want our prisons to be safer and when people leave the less likely to come back and that's what I see as my job. And will you have your haircut in prison soon? Definitely but I wouldn't mind hearing how yours go and I'll have a look but yeah definitely I'm up for that. James Timpson speaking to me just before my brief spell inside and do keep talking to us about this subject we know it matters a great deal to all of us.

34:07Our listener in Fishguard Sarah Foreman wrote to us amid all the news about the Bayer tapestry, saying the UK already has an equivalent to the Bayer tapestry. It's in Fishguard and commemorates the last invasion of the UK in 1797. This time by revolutionary France in North Pembrokeshire. Forces led by the American Colonel William Tate were put down. It was a British victory and one in the eye for the French. The invasion is being re-enacted this weekend and here's the moment the French surrendered. It takes a remarkable people to turn an invasion into a legend. Remember this, we came to conquer Britain But instead, Pembrokeshire conquered us Well, 200 years after 1797 an embroidery of that moment was commissioned as we heard from Jackie Stokes who's chair of the Last Invasion Tapestry, as it's known I'm standing in the Last Invasion Tapestry Gallery which was purpose-built for it in the town hall in Fishguard It's more modern than the Bayeux tapestry.

35:09The biggest difference is the number of colours that we've used. This tapestry has 178 different colours in it. The tapestry, which is 100 foot long, it was designed by a lady called Elizabeth Cramp. It was started in the early 1993 and it was completed at the early start of 1997. One of the most popular pictures is Fishguard's very own heroine. Jemima Nicholas. Jemima actually rounded up 12 French soldiers armed with nothing but a pitchfork. It was very much a victory for Great Britain. And it doesn't matter how many times I come and see it, which is quite a lot, I always find some tiny little detail that I've never seen before.

35:56It's also a lot quieter than you'll find in large museums. So it's a lot easier to slowly look and take your time at this marvellous piece of art. And it's cheaper. Then there's a great tapestry of Scotland which tells the story of the country's history, heritage and culture from 8500 BC to present day. The historian and former director of the Edinburgh Fringe, Alistair Muffet, wrote the historical narrative for that tapestry. One day Sandy McCall Smith, my old friend, the great novelist called me and he said, look, I've had a great idea. I think we should do a tapestry that shows the whole history of Scotland.

36:33We ended up with 160 panels. It's the longest tapestry of community arts project there is. And it tells the story of Scotland from volcanoes and the formation of the earth millions of years ago, right up until the 21st century. One of the things that's so distinctive about it, though, it was stitched almost exclusively by a thousand women. They told a women's history of Scotland, which had never happened before. And so that made it glow. It really made it glow. And we did it in 2010, 2011. And then we found a final home for it, a permanent home, in Gala Shields in the Scottish Borders, which is where I'm from and where I live.

37:09If you want to find out about Scotland rather than what happened in southern England, come to Gala Shields and go around the Great Tapestry of Scotland. It's a wonder of the age. And listeners also point us to the 19th century recreation of the Bayer Tapestry held at Reading Museum. I don't think I've ever done so much tapestry news in my entire life. We've got the bunting out for Michelle Hussain, who's back on Radio 4. Hello, Michelle. Lovely to see you, Paddy. Host of the Michelle Hussain Show podcast. Who hosts that, I wonder? She won the Charles Wheeler Award for her career in broadcast journalism, which included many years on the Today programme.

37:43And many listeners will be very pleased you're back. It is very good to be with you in a familiar space. I feel like you're in charge. Sienna Rogers is Deputy Editor of the House, the Parliamentary magazine. Hello, Sienna. Hello. I've been looking at your recent article, Inside Burnham's Number 10 North Plans, with the subtitle, It's Not Just About Creating a Second Westminster. Indeed, yes, that is their intention, that it's not just about continuing the present Westminster culture, but creating something completely new. The practicality is, however, more complicated. And if he gets bogged down in governmental reform, it's going to be go badly for him, isn't it, if he just reforms Whitehall?

38:18Well, it's a key plank of his promise to the Labour Party and the country, but obviously those kind of technicalities aren't of particular interest to the public. Jeremy Lee is listening. Chef and restaurateur running London's Quo Vadis. The author of his new book is called Kitchening. Day to day, good food, come rain or shine, comes out in September. You've made kitchen a sort of vowel. Kitchening. What is that? Is that a verb? It was an old English term for cooking, which was, according to the OED, which is where I found it in a segued reference, bandied around in the mid-19th century, just before Eliza Acton coined cooking for the domestic kitchen.

39:04You're a big chef. Do you love a bit of this? Well, I mean, I do know how you can call me that in the presence of Jeremy Lee, but I will really compliment you, Jeremy, on finding an original title for a cookbook, because I imagine that is getting harder and harder by the day. So I look forward to reading it. We've done it now. And then we'll never mention it again. Right, let's start with Michelle Hussain. We'll start with your coverage from The Observer. The cupboard is not bare, Burnham. This is an op-ed by Will Hutton. Yes, it's on page 29 of The Observer. And obviously, I woke up this morning thinking, how does it feel to be Andy Burnham being on the cusp of walking into Downing Street tomorrow?

39:40You know, what an incredible couple of months. And I know you have already, Paddy, this morning, and we will continue to talk about his domestic challenges. I think it's also really worth reflecting on. Compared to Keir Starmer, he comes into office in a tougher international climate, not least because of Donald Trump being in the White House at the moment he arrives, someone who's dismissed Andy Burnham as being the mayor of a town, but also, of course, the Iran war, a second war that will continue to impact the United Kingdom. The column I've chosen is Will Hutton saying that the economic and political cupboard is not quite as bare as widely portrayed.

40:16And I thought it's interesting to reflect on what Will Hutton has picked out in particular. The Treasury is set to pay£125 billion to the Bank of England over the next five years to compensate UK banks for the money they still hold on deposit there as a result of allowing it for more than a decade to buy bonds under quantitative easing. And Will Hutton says if the bank was to tier these reserves, as the European Central Bank has done, only a fraction would be eligible for full compensation. Which would save eight to nine. The banks would clearly not be happy. It would save eight to nine billion a year.

40:51Yes. But I wonder if that would be seen as tinkering because we've still got to raise money. Sienna, you've picked another story that tells us about Andy Burnham, the scrapping of costly digital ID cards from the Sunday Telegraph. Yeah, so this is one of the things that he's going to be highlighting. I mean, the Conservatives have responded to this pledge to kind of scrap digital ID by pointing out, and I think they do have a point, that actually the mandatory element of that scheme was already rolled back on by the government. Starmer had to go back on that because they messed up the announcement initially of this plan so badly that it went down terribly with the public and with Labour MPs as well.

41:33So how much money is he actually going to be saving in terms of scrapping this digital ID is highly questionable because I think the actual, the sort of constituent parts of the scheme, so one login and all the various digital schemes that the government will be implementing, they're not going anywhere. So do you both want to tell me who will be Chancellor? Tomorrow Jeremy Lee's just fallen over, obviously, by my question. Do you have a, do you want to say? Well, I think that, I mean, clearly it feels like the mood music has moved away from Ed Miliband in quite an interesting way. Yes, it has.

42:07Shabana Mahmood is the favourite. I'm told that that is the expectation, that she'll be a number 11. We love her prediction. We get most of ours wrong, but we're not talking about yours, which sounds absolutely perfect for us getting ready for tomorrow. Now, Jeremy Lee. It's like reading. This is also a story from The Observer. Children here opening their eyes to another world. Yes, this is a bucolic scene down in Devon that belongs to Michael and Clare Mopunga, who for decades have arranged for truckloads of kids to be brought from inner cities down to the countryside and explore the joys of a working farm and to actually get their hands dirty and realise for children who've never seen soil on a carrot or on a potato, they've only known food in plastic bags that is actually grown in the ground.

42:54and they've created this incredible world over many, many years. And it goes back as well because her dad, Claire's dad, was Alan Lane, who down in Devon was on a platform one day and didn't have a book and realised that for sale were only hardbacks that were very expensive. And a year later, he created Penguin Books, the paperback. And so the family has a great history in bringing something to the greater good. I wonder if we should just also say hello to allotmenteers. Because a lot of children get their first experience of growing things, well, in a garden or an allotment. Yes, I mean, yeah.

43:32And if they're lucky enough to be part of a school or some kind of school food programme that has those kinds of experiences, that's still unfortunately very rare these days. Do you grow anything? Anyone here grow anything? Flowers. I must say I don't really grow vegetables and only herbs on that front. So I'm not great on the edible front. Tomatoes. You grow tomatoes? Yeah, tomatoes. How do they taste, your tomatoes? Oh, fantastic. They're always so much better. Jeremy, a listener, Olly Knowles from London, says, can you ask, Mr Lee, what I should do with a glut of figs from a tree in my garden?

44:06Oh, gosh. Hang on, there's a bit more. Hang on. I know BH is not technically a cooking show, but it's a nice break from a glut of Burnham cabinet spectrum. Fair dues. Telling us. Preserves. Fig preserves. I did have a glut of figs last year, funnily enough. and you just simmer them, roughly crush them with your hands in a pot, a big jam pot with a ton of sugar and lemon juice. I was thinking, well, that makes it sound easier. I was wondering if you could do something slightly less labour intensive than preserved. But I think you're saying like actually have a go. Have a go at making a fig jam.

44:43It's only one notch up from making a raspberry jam, promise. I think I'd just put them in the oven with a bit of honey and oats cheese, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yum. And I pass on my late uncle's tip for getting the skin off a beetroot. So you boil it or steam it and then you get a newspaper and you wrap the newspaper round and that effortlessly brings the skin off the beetroot. Fly the flag for good use of newspaper because remember it's always tomorrow's fish and chips or tomorrow's beetroot. Not on this programme. It's material. Michel Hussain will talk about an interview that you've done which has made the news.

45:16Now it's an interview with Tucker Carlson. Who is he? We'll play a clip, but tell us first who he is. Well, you know, any Radio 4 listeners who haven't yet discovered my podcast, I really hope they do. Sorry, Fadi, but there is a reason I'm saying this, which is that I like to think that it just enables you to go really deep into someone and why they are relevant. And Tucker Carlson is a household name in the US from his Fox News days. It is hard to imagine anyone who has been a more prominent ally of Donald Trump and had such a spectacular falling out with him, which is what's happened in the last few months.

45:48from the moment that this Iran war began. And so we had a long conversation with him. And he goes further, I think, than he has before on just how far he thinks Donald Trump has gone in the wrong direction. First of all, loyalty goes two ways. Second, the loyalty that matters is the loyalty of our leaders to the country they represent, okay? And they're disloyal. Trump has been disloyal to the United States, totally disloyal to the United States. He cheated on the United States with a foreign power. So I'm not the one who's been disloyal. Sienna, you're an independent listener. What do you make of that person saying those words?

46:28Well, he has been very, very critical for a while. I mean, he's a hugely controversial character, isn't he? He is, and the way that he talks about Israel, that's the foreign power he means. And he has been accused by Jewish groups of crossing the line into anti-Semitism. I think we did, as you'd expect, because I'm still that kind of journalist, when we went to a White House official for comment, they said, you know, President Trump makes decisions based on what serves America's interests. I was I noted the fact that they didn't criticize Tucker Carlson directly. And in this conversation, he's actually very complimentary about J.D.

47:02Vance. So even though he says and he's an influential person still with the right in America, even though he says he's left the Republican Party, I really wonder whether he'll be back. So there we have news made on Michelle's Airwaves, the podcast. And now we turn back to the newspapers. And this is the Mail on Sunday, Sienna Rogers. Nigella thinks it's all rather cringe why Paul's 500 ,000th helicopter is curdling relations with new co-star in Bake Off tent. Yes. So obviously Bake Off, it's had a massive drop off in viewership recently. I certainly stopped watching myself. and they've got Nigella now in and I think that will get people watching again.

47:42But there are some tensions in the tent. So she goes by car, of course, and he arrives in his 500 grand Robinson Raven, which he's taken to using for the 120 mile commute from his home in Kent. And apparently, locally, he's known as the Tom Cruise of Kent because of his use of helicopters, supercars and high powered motorbikes. So, I mean, he's a successful man and he's doing this thing by arriving by chopper. That's the story. But what do we think about Nigella on Bake Off, Jeremy? Goddess. In a word. On every front, I think, not just Bake Off. I know, no, she can do no wrong, I think. Because I think Nigella is one of the strongest voices in the entire food community and can get a message over like no one else.

48:28On a par with Jimmy Oliver as well. I think she's a very... She's solid and great, and I think what she's done for women in kitchens and she's restored faith in cooking in kitchen, taking it away from the idea that it's a tyranny. But in fact, it's a pleasure. Someone once said to me, she's obsessed with butter. As we all are, I'm afraid. All chefs are obsessed with butter, surely. If in doubt, more butter. And salt. Always. But I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not giving tips, but are you going to turn back to Bake Off? Is that what you're saying? I think I will, yeah. Because, well, apparently soggy bottoms, You know, this is the famous phrase from Bake Off.

49:05That feels tame compared to Nigella's arsenal of naughtier sides, it says here. And I'm sure that's true. So she looks fantastic. That's great writing, isn't it? An arsenal of naughtier sides. I should claim that for myself. Right, Jeremy Lee, the Sunday Telegraph. Industrial farming will kill French gastronomy. Yes, I like this story because I think we have, It's very easy to paint a bucolic scene in a farm. And in fact, it is 24-7. You know, it requires solid hard work to keep a farm going. And if you are produce driven, and this is about a restaurant family of many generations in the Loire Valley, who are very worried about the produce that is required for their menus and what they're famous for is going to be compromised by industrialisation and pesticides, which is in fact a global threat to all farming.

50:01And are all customers more aware now? I mean, shopping is often based on price, so it's about the gatekeepers. Of course. But do you find restaurateurs, people in restaurants, want to know more about where their food comes from? Oh, for sure. I think we all now know that we are gauged and monitored for the quality of projects we have. The Sunday Telegraph, Mishael Hussain, jets and snipers guard Trump at World Cup. Yes, it's the World Cup final tonight. And it's interesting to see the detail of this. What is supposed to be the biggest sporting security operation in United States history, the Telegraph says, bigger than a Super Bowl.

50:35A no-fly zone will be fiercely guarded. Snipers will be on stadium roofs. Thousands of FBI agents have been drafted in to support an unprecedented operation for a football match. That is because Donald Trump will be there and he will be presenting the trophy to the winners alongside Gianni Infantino, the FIFA president. Sadly, of course, it was not for England to be there, although they did do incredibly well last night. Yes, I mean, I watched the game last night and actually it was quite therapeutic having England v France. It was a brilliant match if people haven't watched it yet. And actually, it's quite life-changing being able to talk football in Westminster to men who usually I'm completely excluded from these conversations.

51:11Thank you for joining us today. Chicago talks a lot. Hold on, let me step over here. People are talking too much. We debate about food, deep dish, tavern style, who's got the best beef. We yell across rooms, across blocks, across generations. Yes, nice earrings, Grammy. And now we're doing it on our phones, too. Video calls from the L train, group chats that never shut up. Neighbors texting you the score before your TV catches up. Come on! Get a load of this guy. Catch up. On a dog. Yeah, we've got thoughts. Too loud? In Chicago, you're gonna hear it. Because nothing here gets built without conversation.

51:50Nothing moves without connection. So if you think you know AT &T, it might be time to rethink that because their network has improved, like, a lot. So Chicago can keep speaking its mind with AT &T Wireless and AT &T Fiber. Chicago won't stop talking. Our improved network backs it up. AT &T, connecting changes everything. AT &T Fiber, limited availability in select areas. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good, Bad, Billionaire. We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100 ,000 on camera.

52:28And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man$10 ,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.