Brandi Carlile and Tish Melton

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2:11Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval, terms apply. Brandi Carlisle's knack for uplifting the musicians she loves is exemplary. After her own hard-earned ascent to success over the course of seven studio albums, Brandi started to turn her sights to producing albums for artists she deeply admires, including Tanya Tucker, who she's been on Broken Record with in the past, but also Brandi Clark. Then there's Joni Mitchell, who, thanks to Brandi's encouragement, has recently made a glorious return to performing live. Brandi's passion for the projects she works on is infectious.

2:52The latest is an EP she produced for an 18-year-old singer-songwriter named Tish Melton. The EP is called When We're Older. Over the course of the five-song collection, Tish pulls influence from artists like Phoebe Bridgers and Lucy Dacus. Tish, whose mom is the New York Times bestselling author Glennon Doyle, is teeming with talent on her EP, which includes heartfelt songs that expertly capture a wise-beyond-her-years self-assuredness. On today's episode, Leah Rose talks to Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile about their creative partnership and the impermeable sense of self Brandi has found in both Tish and Joni Mitchell.

3:30And Brandi teases her upcoming collaboration album that she calls monumental. And she talks about why she thinks Beyonce might be country music's saving grace. This is Broken Record. Line of notes for the digital age. I'm Justin Richman. Here's Leah Rose's conversation with Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile. Well, thank you both so much for doing this. I'm super excited to hear about how this album came to be. I guess let's start Brandy. Tell me how you first met Tish and how you then found out that she was a musician. Well, our families are friends. So that might make you think that, you know, because of proximity to one another or just an affection that we have for one another, that that would draw us to work together or me to want to work with Tish.

4:25but actually it's quite it's quite pure like I just saw her trajectory from this interested young person like learning an instrument and starting to sing covers to like starting to write in really pure interesting and unaffected ways to like actually becoming a damn good writer to becoming so impressed that I was like a bit jealous and that's that's the point where we kind of met and decided to go in and record some things because why not you know yeah but it was a really natural trajectory of me gaining affection and then admiration for a songwriter that was honestly just impressing me and proximity to our families kind of phased out as one of the reasons why we work together in the end don't you think tish yeah and then when you say she was writing in unaffected ways what do you mean by that oh um i just mean that tish is like a part of a songwriting contingency that I have like a lot of respect for and I actually think she's one of the best at it where she's so innocently and with such wisdom writing about exactly who she is right where she is she's like the Eckhart Tolle you know prime example of a songwriter like living in the moment in the age that they are you know and I remember coming up in Roots and Americana and folk music and writing about hopping trains and the Dust Bowl and shit like you know I wasn't talking about getting behind the wheel of a car for the first time and being sad that I was suddenly an adult, because that would have revealed that I was not in fact an adult and I wanted to be taken seriously in a way that Tish is unaffected by.

6:02And it's, I'm in awe of it. Tish, are you aware that you have that ability? I mean, Brandy was one of, like, was the first person to tell me that, but my mom had always told me that I was a very, like, unaffected, steady person. so I think the fact that that's transferred into my music like I'm glad that like I have a sense of self that kind of carries through both those things you do yeah Brandy when you're working with Tish and you're reading her lyrics or you're hearing the lyrics does it take you at all back to where you were when you were 17 18 and does it make you sort of like compare your experience yeah kind of especially when you know we did an interview recently where somebody asked her who specifically she was singing about in a certain song and I watched her kind of try to grasp for what that is because I sense that feeling of like I remember writing really important and profound self-revealing things about myself probably not as concisely as Tish does but with the same intent and not knowing what it was about until 15 years later and looking back on it realizing the person that influenced that or the moment or the thing that influenced that and also realize that these or habits I'm repeating into middle age.

7:15So yeah, I do. I see real parallels and I see someone that's better than I was by any measure, just better. And I just think it's kind of intoxicating. I'm curious about your perspective now, having worked so much with Joni, who's 80 and Tish is now, you just turned 18, right? Yeah. So Tish is 18 and then Brandy, you're somewhere in the middle. I don't want to out you. But like, what has that made you think about the lifespan of emotional life? Yeah, it's weird. It kind of begins and ends similarly. I've seen that happen. It's like this rainbow of starting with a really strong sense of self, an impermeable sense of self, and then ending with a really strong impermeable sense of self.

8:05And how those two shining moments might actually be the brightest that we ever shine. It might actually be the time that we're most important to the world. And those are the times we get listened to the least when we're either too young or too old. So I really do see this just incredible commonality. And that's why I've really loved drawing young people to Joanie, physically to Joanie, to sit at her feet with a guitar and sing their songs for her in her living room and watch that exchange of purity and energy and knowing that like, yeah, this might actually be a sweet spot. Can you tell us about any, like any young artists that you've brought to collaborate with Joni or just to sit with her, play with her?

8:46Oh, yeah. I mean, just the most recent one would just be at the Grammys, just being on that floor with Joan and seeing all these incredible young songwriters. And I do think, I'm not being hyperbolic when I say I think we're in a real moment, like a Laurel Canyon level moment of self-revelation in songwriting and tish is a huge part of this like i think one of the strongest and most powerful voices doing it and so i really want her ep to be heard by people of all ages because i think she's very important but sitting on the floor of the grammys and watching those young artists they knew it they knew before we got there they have her lyrics tattooed on their arms and shit you know like gracie abrams walked up to me and she said something about how she likes my music or whatever and I completely shrugged it off I didn't even like I actually had to write her something and apologize I just immediately knew what you need what you're here for honestly is to be introduced to Joni you know so I just like didn't even listen to her I just took her by the hand and I said Joni this is a beautiful songwriter this is a beautiful young person that you mean really a lot to and I want to introduce you guys and so Joni was lovely and they took a picture and it became a big moment for Gracie in her life.

10:02And I've got to facilitate a few of those moments of like full circle connectedness between the two souls that know who they are and get listened to the least, the oldest and the youngest. That's so incredible. Yeah. We've seen it happen. You know, the Joanie jams have been really cool. And I remember watching Meggie Rogers have the same experience and Harry Styles have the same experience. And then we've all had the same experience, you know, I think that bringing older and younger people together is like paramount and it finally feels possible. Yeah, it was just so special seeing Brandy introduce Joni and being so close to her and then seeing like the entire musical family that I've been introduced to just these past couple years and spent so much time with on stage with her while she's which like Joni Mitchell is like the start of all the songwriting that everyone's doing and I feel like like Brandy said what everyone's really returning back to now.

10:55And then they're seeing both sides now. I was like, it was just all too, like I just lost it. And I like did not recover for like, I just had to sit there in silence afterwards. I wish you'd been there with me. I know. I was so sad I wasn't there. Like I was telling my mom, I was like, I feel like I should have been there. Like it feels like that I was supposed to be there, but there'll be another opportunity, I hope. Dude, it was pretty special. She's come up more in broken record conversations and interviews than any other artist hands down from every genre. Everybody always references Joni Mitchell.

11:31And it's just incredible, the power and the reach. She's like poet laureate for our entire industry. Everybody can recognize themselves in her in one way or another. And she's just like, cool. Do you think she gets it or it doesn't matter? She accepts it and she gets it, but she's not heady about it. Like she doesn't want to dissect it. She just wants to like be Joni Mitchell. And there's just something not unlike you, Tish, very steady about Joan nowadays. Yeah. Thank you, Brandy, for bringing her back into public life. Oh, my God. I'm just got I'm like, I'm Robin, man. She's Batman. I'm following her around just going.

12:11This is the coolest shit I've ever seen. it's so cool how this developed I've heard you tell the whole story about how at first you weren't like the biggest fan when you were first getting together with Catherine right and Catherine was like red flag like how can you not be into Joni Mitchell yeah well it speaks to this exact thing that Tish is so good at and so aware of that I wasn't aware of which was that Joni Mitchell smacked of vulnerability to me and that made me very uncomfortable it made me uncomfortable I was uncomfortable with my feelings I was uncomfortable with my gender and Joni kind of like opening herself up for the whole world to see made me feel like I would have to do that too if I listened for too long and I wanted to be a different kind of artist at that time and so I was a late bloomer and I'm so envious of the fact that there's this whole wave of songwriters now that are not late bloomers and that have accepted the gift of their feelings being de-stigmatized by this person, whereas I was rejecting it.

13:12And when I stopped rejecting it, it made me ready for a lot of what happened to me then in my life, you know, from getting married to being a mother. I'm not saying Joni Mitchell made all those things possible. I'm just saying she was one of the steps along the way that made it so that I could actually accept that I was a feeling person. It's incredible you have one thing to sort of point to that started the domino effect. Yeah. And that it ended this way, that it ended with me actually being able to be by her side in times that she's vulnerable, you know? Yeah. Pretty cool. Super cool. So when you were starting to record Tish's EP, did you, Brandy, bring any sounds or any music that you wanted Tish to hear?

13:56And same Tish, did you bring anything to Brandy that you wanted sort of like reference pieces? Tish did. Yeah, I brought a lot. Like, I think that was like a helpful, like, I think Brandy and I were on the same page, like from the very beginning about recording. I think part of the reason was because I had so many different reference people, because I'm just like a fangirl. Like, I just, I go to so many concerts and I'm such a fan of all of these artists and so I didn't think too much about it but I just brought in like a playlist of songs that was like like my like the clearness of Lizzie McAlpine's vocals I would really like my vocals sound like that or like the drums in this song or like the guitar in this song or the feeling of this song the outro of the song I think that directed the production a lot especially on like the day when we were tracking it yeah tish really knows like really knows what she likes and is very clear like she doesn't just send you a song and go how do you feel when you listen to this she goes i want you to listen to this vocal sound and i want you to hear this outro this many bars in and you know it's not even the guitar it's the bell that you barely hear in the outro like she's that specific about my god yeah production sounds and styles i think you'll be a producer or self-produced someday too yeah I made her listen to the end of Scott Street by Phoebe Bridgers and I was like just listen to the child the bell that's like that's like representing her childhood and like the little horn like the bike oh my god I was like that feeling like that's how I wanted the sober outro to feel like that emotional or like that like that one sound just brings you back to like your childhood street which is like exactly what that song does like there's a couple songs that I just don't let myself listen to very often because I like don't want to get sick of them and I also don't want to feel sad and Scott Street is one of those songs my god you love that song it's so good yeah and it was cool because no I didn't bring any references to the table until she would play me those things because what would happen is you know I already felt a little underqualified to be the producer for Tish on this project just because I felt like sonically and just age-wise that she was kind of in a realm that I didn't really understand yet you know and so when she started playing me Phoebe Bridgers I'd be like oh you like this check out Elliot Smith or you know she'd play me these bands and I'd be like oh you wait until I introduce you to Team Dresch and Slater Kinney well we're about to get all up in the butchies now and like you're gonna listen to this music you know from like Portland and Seattle that was like in my foundations And I realized that like, we kind of have the same heroes, even if they're separated by a generation or two.

16:37Music is so ageless that you can just sort of come across those divides if you can see who influenced who. So it was really cool. Yeah. What did you think of the older stuff, Tish? I mean, I'm like such a music nerd that like, I like was well aware of like Elliot being such like an influence to Phoebe. like I just like do like I just do research when like I just know it's horrible I just am like constantly doing research on everyone's like personal life of like the musicians that I know and like their influences so I knew that but there's a lot of stuff that like you wouldn't think that it related like remember when you showed me the call your girlfriend song that was like a cover of another song and it's like I don't even remember what song you were like oh this is influenced by that but there's so many different aspects of it that like connected and you wouldn't expect it to yeah but yeah I think that like Phoebe's influences being at Brandy's influences I think that that pipeline was really cool it revealed itself in the studio and it made me feel so cool like I felt suddenly so capable of doing the job and not letting Tish down because not only did I know what she was wanting but I knew where it came from even and that is something I'm going to take forward with me forever is to not have that kind of an inadequacy creep in to my thinking anymore.

17:56I saw Brandy, your name is all over the credits on the EP. You're playing dulcimer, you're playing banjo, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, backup vocals. Can you describe your approach as a producer? A producer can mean so many things. Yeah. How do you approach the job? Well, it's so by artist, you know, I've had projects I've produce where I haven't touched an instrument. I'm not a aficionado. I'm not an engineer. So I have like a few engineers that I just, they're like limbs to me. I love them and trust them so much. With Tish though, it's because it's always by artist, like per artist. It was like a totally unique process where we basically started one day at Shangri-La, which is the last place I was when I did this podcast.

18:43We started in one day and we got basic tracks where we tried to like strap this band to Tish's innate rhythm while she played guitar and we kind of created basic tracks. Some we used, some we didn't. When we left Shangri-La, we came to Seattle in this weird little treehouse room that you see up here. And we just basically became mixologists, like alchemists building rocket ships and turning metal into other metals. And we just created sounds together. So I'm on there like as playing instruments but really what it was was just both of us experimenting with instruments we didn't even really fully know how to play all the time and I love when those kinds of sounds come across you can't fake that shit you can't fake that seeking ambience and that's one of my favorite parts about this record is you just hear scratches and pings and sounds that are accidents that are found in joy and fun and how about you Brandy are you starting to work on your own stuff?

19:37I just finished a project that is monumental for me that I can't talk about, but you'll find out about very soon. And I did some of the great, in my opinion, the most important writing I've ever done. And I feel very satisfied as a writer in that sense. I can't believe the things that got accomplished in that three weeks. Is it a collaboration album with an older artist who we all know and love? it very well may be a legacy artist wow that's incredible but there is nothing legacy about it it's it's very here and now and just enormous that's exciting it's very exciting so that's like my next like big project and then after that i'm gonna rediscover who brandy carlisle is like everything like i want to do i want different hair i want different clothes dude you have good hair right now oh do i i'm wondering like i tried a new thing at the grammys I liked it, but...

20:35Oh my God. I was like, I was like, I thought I was watching like a rerun of an old Grammys or something because your hair was so different. Like I thought it looked great, but I was like, wait, like I like didn't even recognize you for a second. I'm trying to figure out who I am next. I don't know. You know, I know who you are. That's why I'm not taking any more production roles for a while. I'm going to figure it out though. Tish, you could tell me who I am next or at least give me some tips on a haircut. How are you feeling about everybody doing country albums all of a sudden? Like Beyonce just announced she's doing her country album and Lana Del Rey's doing a country album.

21:10Well, I think that country music as an institution is fundamentally broken. So just tell you how I really feel about that. I think it's a problem. It's a cultural problem we have in America is the way that that genre has played itself out as a ostracizing political tool in a way to divide people. I'm not okay with it. I don't like country radio. As it pertains to music and culture, I'm a country person. You know, I'm a chicken farming fisherman cowgirl, and I love rural music, rural lyrics, Americana music, roots music, folk music. And I love how marginalized people, particularly people of color, are the architects of that kind of music.

21:49So whenever Beyonce says she's doing a country album, I'm willing to rethink my feelings about country from the foundation up. And I would think that if anybody could change it, I would damn sure bet it'd be her. So go, go, go, babe. But I appreciate the idea of changing it more than the idea of joining it. We're going to take a quick break and then come back with more from Lee Rose, Tish Melton, and Brandi Carlisle. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at an Oocla speed test.

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25:46Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. We're back with more from Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle. Is the Chase the first song on the EP? Yeah. There's a little, I think it's 30 second little synth intro. and it really feels like you're opening a door and walking into Tish's world. It's sort of like this little like transitory little piece and then the song starts. But I wanted to hear your intention with that. I'm so glad you said that. I like have an obsession with intros and outros. Like I feel like they're the most important part of a song because I do like, I don't know, there's like a structure of a song that like I don't follow all the time, but I follow a lot of the time.

26:36and like that gets like boring to me. So like either I change up the structure or I put like a weird intro on it. And we were like back and forth on the intro because I remember we're like, okay, it doesn't fit the song. We're taking it out because we want it to be more grungy. But then like the 90s intro, I just love synthy intros, like the outro of Sober. Me too. Or like the big like world that it creates. Like I don't think that any of those songs would be the same without one. Yeah. And then I also just think it makes the chase more fun and unexpected. Like you just don't expect that. Like, I don't know, you expect a 90s sounding like synth song and then like the guitar, like the muddy guitar starts.

27:14And I just think it changes it a lot. Yeah, it does. It totally does. I remember like going back and forth in the intro and like most things as a producer, I default to the artist's certainty when they are certain. That's when you have to acquiesce. It becomes really important. And I thought like, you know, I'm from Seattle. I thought the chase sounded like it started like a Nirvana song. Like it's, you know, it just felt to me just garagey. And I loved that this like EP started out that way, you know. But then it's like then the artist comes along, they tell you who they are. And Tish is genuinely loves the cinematic intros and outros.

27:52And she loved this intro. So we started pulling each other across the center line, you know. When I had to be faced with the fact that this thing was wanted on the beginning of this EP, I had to sort of get into, well, what don't I like about it? Exactly why does it bother me? And so we started pulling a few elements out and adding a few elements in. And I think by the end of it, I think that the beaker just got filled with the right kind of solution. And it fit. And she was right about it. Of course she's right about it. It's her. It's also so bold. Like, at first, if I put, like, a big, like, cinematic intro or outro on a song, I was worried that people would be like, oh, like, who does she think she is?

28:27Whatever. but it's like I hope people say that like I hope I do like bold things and people are like taking it back by it a bit god you hope people say that yeah like I don't know I love that I think that that's like a like I want to do bold things or like things that aren't expected that's also why I like like that these specific songs are on the EP because all of them are so different and it's like I was just talking about how since I'm so new everything feels like a first impression which was that's why there's a lot of pressure putting out a first song because all the songs are so different but like I don't think that there's any one impression of me that you get on the EP other than like I'm experimenting too and like I have so many different feelings and things that I want to say yep and all of these songs are so different because there's so many different things that I want to do and I just want to do them no it's amazing that's what that's what comes across like there's a through line which is that you can hear that this is authentically one artist it's one artist but it doesn't ever get mired in the one thing like one thing is epic one thing's a heartbreaking ballad one of these things is like of just like a ramones song so these there's no it's not erratic there's a through line but it's also like you can't skip any of these songs because each one is such a different journey for some for only a five song collection it's quite epic that's one of the reasons why i thought oh god maybe it needs to be an album because we need more time to even out these like spikes and dives that are in this thing And that the only real through line is your steady rhythm guitar playing and your steady voice.

29:56But then I started to really like that. You know, it's like the Boy Genius record, I think, achieves that really well, where, you know, you've got Cool About It, and then you've got True Blue, and then you've got Strong Enough, and you got that song in the beginning, you know, they're all so different. but that's three songwriters behaving three different ways and you're one songwriter but you definitely have the ability to kind of head down some interesting tributaries I think because of who influences you and one thing about it is no matter which tributary you go down and how turbulent it is you are still steady I don't know about that word we keep using that word Tish what do you think about it I like it I just don't want I get worried that it's like oh like boring like I Like I want to like make unexpected.

30:41Like it's like there's like a part of me that remains steady, but I don't want that to get confused with like the same all the time. I would say steady. I would say that about The Cure. And I would say that about Bruce Springsteen. It's reliable. Well, yeah. And it's like it's immovable is what it is. Like, you know that like as an audience member, you're not affecting the way Bruce Springsteen performs. He's doing that. You know, it's not to be confused with placid or linear. It's just immovable. It's just formidable. Yeah, maybe we need to come up with a different word other than steady. But for some reason, that just always like neon lights in my head.

31:23Yeah. I want to ask you about the song, Michelle. It's a song about friendship. You know, when a friendship dissolves, it can be as heartbreaking as a romantic relationship breaking up. It's especially intense when you're a teenager, but it's also intense in middle age. How did that song come to be? I actually wrote that song, like two of my friends had like a really weird, like giving from one person and taking from another person. But it kind of helped me really understand one of their perspectives. Because I think a lot of teenage relationships is like feeling like you're too much, or like feeling so much for that person, you don't know how to express that in a way that doesn't put too much pressure on them.

32:06Like that, like the narrator was just giving too much to Michelle and it's not Michelle's fault for not reciprocating it because she's her own person and it's not her job too. But then you also just feel so bad for both parties in the story, which I like about it because I think there's really no right answer, especially in girl friendships where there's so much passion there. Which are so intense. It's so intense. My most intense relationships have been girl friendships, which it's hard to differentiate between what's like feelings that like you just like don't like don't explain or like what's like actually just like a queer like like there's so much so many layers to it but like that came from me just trying to better understand one of my friends yeah brandy were you able to relate to that song with your own experience with friendships changing as you've gotten older or maybe as you've gotten more successful i mean absolutely it's like it's already strange you know when you're queer to try and figure out what identify what those feelings are where they're coming from how you want to move forward with it and those friendships change I mean like you know I'm a lesbian like we literally like wind up married to each other's partners and shit and like staying best friends with our ex and it's like these friendships get really ambiguous so a song I'll write about a totally platonic relationship might wind up being romantic eventually and then platonic again.

33:33So yeah, I think that, yeah, that's one thing, Tish, that's so ageless is that friendships and connections between women and queer people are so bizarre and unquantifiable. And you're like, yeah, you might find yourself in love with Michelle someday. You might find yourself being Michelle someday. And then that song just changes. It just changes and it fits you like this new coat that you do or don't want to wear, but it's on you. And I've written songs about a romantic relationship. And then 10 years later, someone I know dies. And I realized that that song was actually written about that moment that I didn't even know would exist yet.

34:11It's such a funny thing what songs do to you throughout life because they're like little pieces of your soul. And you don't realize it, but like, you're going to repeat all of these thoughts and mistakes. And it's not that we can't grow or change, it's just that we don't. yeah so when you say that you write a song and then later it morphs into a different meaning is it like a premonition I think it might be about something yeah like I'm not gonna get too into it like because I'll sound crazy but I'm not totally sure that time is we've talked about this oh my gosh I was just thinking about this other day yeah sometimes I think we're just remembering when we think we're like arrogant enough to be manifesting something for ourselves that we're just remembering it, you know?