Justin Richmond on You'll Hear It: "Still Crazy After All These Years" — Paul Simon

22:06Well, not Phil. Well, we'll get to that. Not Phil Woods, yeah. Not for eight seconds. I love this Rhodes part. It's just a beautiful example of the very simple church chords. It's just played flawlessly. The voice leading is unbelievable. Obviously, the sound of a Rhodes in 1975. But normally, they'd be a little bit more like a little bit of bluesy. I feel like they were, I think Simon told them or somebody, I don't know if that was Phil Ramone, was involved. Like, oh, no, you know, which is, I mean, that's probably appropriate for what it is. But for me, I kind of want to hear a little bit, just a little bit of grit or something.

22:41So you think a little more grit would, it's a 9.5, a little more grit, make that a 10 out of 10. Yeah. Like what if Donny Hathaway was playing that road? Oh, my. Yeah. 11. Right? But I kind of agree with you. It feels like, I mean, for Barry Beckett, it's pulled back a little bit. But do you think. For Michael Brecker, it's pulled back. Right. Do you think, Justin, like what you were talking about, like the phrasing that Paul Simon is singing with, that that would have more grit would have taken away from that? I don't know. I don't know if. Yes, I think in terms of the way Paul approaches songs and sings, I think that sort of more pulled back, restrained playing is probably more.

23:19Like if Donnie's singing and playing. Right. You know. Yeah, it's going to go there. Not that Paul's not a great vocalist, but it's just, you know. It's not what he does, though. It's not what he does. It would be weird if Paul was like singing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would feel a little weird. That sort of understated, putting real focus on the lyrics and the turn of the phrase in a very gentle way, that's the Paul Simon I think about in my head when I think about his talent as a vocalist. We can hear that here without any backing. I met my old lover on the street last night. She seems so glad to see me.

23:56I just smiled. And we talked about some old times And we drank ourselves some beers Still crazy after all these years Whoa, still crazy after all these years It's like you're walking with a friend in the Upper West Side. Yeah. Right. And he's like telling you his story and then running into his ex. It's so conversational, for sure. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. You know? And his voice really lends like the authenticity of it because his like I think the little bit of stank or grit that he does bring is that, you know, the pitch is he has really good intonation, but he does play around just a little bit with the pitch.

24:44Like he's he's not afraid to have it to be a little like stylized. Yeah. Especially when you hear it isolated because it can seem so like I mean, thank God he's not doing this in the pitch correction. you know i mean if they had died because it doesn't need i mean it's like that's it's so subtle that you need to kind of hear those like that's part of his style you know because the words it's like i mean we did d 'angelo a couple this is like the opposite words like wait what was the lyrics that he sang for the last five minutes that was really dirty it sounded killing but what was he talking about no idea what was that in english but like this is just like very you know still crazy i mean like it's right down the middle and um i mean it's an it's it's impressive and i think too that this this track is such a it's almost like theatrical you know it's like it's telling the story but it's like you're going on this journey and it builds up and like obviously james bob james like totally understood that and crafted that with the arrangement because that gave it a little bit of epic feel for just a little bit at the right time like a studio film like you know that'd be like the scoring for like a studio film from that era of like thing.

25:46And yeah, I a hundred percent agree that in that mix of conversationalists with that drama or that theatricalness is, yeah, I don't know. That's top tier for me. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. The, the back to the woodwind arrangements and the string ranges from Bob James, you can hear that this was obviously put on, I think after the rhythm section and maybe even after the vocals, because Bob James will, will do some things with Barry Beckett that you wouldn't put on a chart. He follows his voicings, much like the Shirley Horn, here's the life arranging style. It's a great example of how that can work really, really well.

26:23And obviously Paul Simon just told him on the bridge, like, hey, Bob, that's your part. Go run with it. Do some weird stuff with the oboes. You've got 20 seconds. Radio's not going to lose us. This is 1975. We're all good. Again, the rhythm section is the Muscle Shoals rhythm section at the time. Barry Beckett, David Hood, and Roger Hawkins. You might have heard them on stuff like this. and that already has more grip my favorite bass line all the time

26:53should we just listen to this for the rest I mean that's how versatile they were ain't nobody crying ram shot is so oh man ain't nobody worried

27:09ain't no smiling faces Staple Singers. I'll take it there, obviously. It's definitely the gospel influence, but it's like that southern kind of folky, but it's got a little bit of that nuance. You know, it's just, yeah, those guys know how to do it. So this album would be Simon's first solo album on the Billboard album charts. Still crazy after all these years. Won a Grammy for Album of the Year in 1976, which is incredible. In his acceptance speech, he thanked Stevie Wonder, who didn't make an album this year. Right. That's great. He slipped in. And then that's just track one. Track two is, we get a Simon and Garfunkel reunion with My Little Town.

27:53Again, this was recorded at the Muscle Shoals Studios in Mississippi with the same - Sorry, in Alabama. No one's going to get upset about that. No one's going to get upset about that. This is, again, with Barry Beckett on acoustic piano, David Hood on bass guitar, Roger Hawkins on drums Pete Carr on the electric guitar David Matthews with the horn arrangements Ralph McDonald with the percussion Shout out Ralph McDonald Killing it on this record On a bunch of 100 % His own little couturements They really do some cool stuff This is my little town

28:49That's Alabama. Now the New Yorkers have arrived.

28:58But it works. Contumant New Yorkers, too. They would direct from Montauk to Muscle Shoals.

29:09As I pledge allegiance to the wall Lord, I will go My little town Coming home after school Flying my bike past the gates of the factories Oh, nice My mom doing the laundry Hanging our shirts in the dirty breeze

29:44And after it rains, there's a rainbow And all of the colors are black It's not that the colors aren't there It's just imagination Relax, everything's the same Peter, what's the form of this verse? Well, you know what? You know what I think is great? I'm realizing, like, part of the genius of Paul Simon with his songwriting and then how it's, like, actualized in the song and the arrangement is that pacing, that breath. Like, that's worked in, like, there are these odd, like, little two-beat things and stuff, but that works for when the lyric comes back in, the pacing up. When you look at the chart, and I'm thinking about the meter, it's like, wow, that's weird.

30:30Why did they put that 3-4 in or whatever? But it works for the storytelling. and highlights the lyric and the melody and the pacing. Such good storytelling. It's a through-composed verse, but it pays off. Yeah. With this just repetitive hook. Yeah.

30:52Somewhere else now. Yeah. Even part of town.

31:04Saving my money, dreaming of glory. Go for those tribes to the major songs. On the trigger of a gun. Leaving nothing but the dead and dying back in my little town.

31:28Nothing but the dead and dying back in my little town.

31:36Weird, like minor second harmony in the background vocals. And those horn lines, like, a lot of this stuff shouldn't work as well as it does. A hundred percent. Like, to wait that long to bring in the horns and have them kind of like, you know. The entire song shouldn't work. Yeah. And Ralph McDonald in there, like, it's like, you know, like Pusher Man or something. They're like, what in the world? I don't know. Like, it's a Curtis Maysville record. I don't know, right? Phenomenal. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then the Muscle Shoals guys, the rhythm section is like, that was a lot of like either reading or like figuring out, you know, all those little, because they're kind of grooving and they got to weigh some extra beats and then come in and stuff.

32:12Yeah. Cool stuff. Love the sound of the piano. What do you think about that piano sound at the beginning? At the beginning, that's one of the most, so that unison, can you just play that very first note? You're getting to nerd out. It's not exactly in tune. It's like, I was trying to see like the unisons are almost, they're like on the edge of. oh and then that delay for when the guitar but so just to nerd out real quick but it's sort of of interest like a piano and down in that range would be two notes two notes there's actually two strings and the hammer is hitting it and so like if one of the strings is a little bit out of the tune you get this kind of weird you know it's it sounds out of tune on its own if it gets really out of tune it sounds like a honky-tonk piano yeah yeah it's like a whole piano but this one is like just on i don't think it's actually out because you don't hear the waves going but it's like very close so it gives and i mean his touch is it's such a simple thing and you see it on these people like greatest piano intros of all time i was like it's an easy one to learn but maybe not to play it like that you know yeah it's a beautiful record yeah it's a beautiful record and the horn i don't know man like i don't they must have really hated each other too because to make that record imagine to be like okay we're gonna make a record together you make that record say screw it now.

33:22I can't stand you still. How do you make that and decide and you mix it, the whole thing and nowhere in the process you think let's put it aside. Can you imagine ever in your life making Bridge Over Troubled Water and be like I never want to see this person ever again? It's amazing. And wasn't this like the third time they were coming back together? They've done it several times. They just don't like these. But they sound so good on that. Wasn't this released also on our Garfunkel album? Our solo record. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the same position too, like track two. I just went like. So they obviously both approved of the recording.

33:57It's insanely good. Yeah. Yeah. Classic case of two people whose personalities can't handle each other. And they end up making some of the greatest art. Maybe because of, not even despite of. Reminds me a couple guys I know. No, I'm kidding. We don't speak outside of the podcast. These cameras are off. Oh, boy. It's icy and he's been dealing with some shit this whole time. Oh, that was cool. And I think, too, like, one thing that's always interesting to me is, like, how, you know, when I was coming up and learning music, it's like, oh, you're going to get into this. And they do some, like, weird diminished chords on.

34:35I'm like, that's where the thing is. But the reality is, like, how do these tunes start? And, like, the ending is different because there's so many fadeouts on. And this was the age of, like, the beginning of the fadeouts, you know, which is my own little quibble bit. but like how these first two tracks start with like that road sound at the beginning back up back up you have a cool bit with fade outs yeah i'm not i'm not a fan of it i'm like end the thing what's end it yeah that's your yeah yeah it's like for radio it's great but it's also like we're when we were here i mean this was a little before my time when i was hearing on the radio but it's like the djs had so much control over when the thing was gonna like that's when i came up in the era of like you didn't know when it was gonna it was definitely before like i remember that um what is it uh do i do stevie wonder where dizzy gillespie plays that so like that never my sister had the lp and so i remember she played that i was like wait what is that because it never occurred on the radio like it was always faded out before you got to that they're like we're gonna play the jazz on the on the station i always like to the imagination that some some of the fade out some some fade outs are like a cop out but then sometimes you're like what like you know the end of like uh like i want you back you know you're like michael's cooking you're Like, what?

35:42I know. What happened? I think that to me, that's the genius of a fade out is you're hearing all the good stuff. Yeah. And you're like, where is it going? But it gives you this mystery to what's, like, that song could still be going on. We don't know. Yeah. Is it still going today? Yeah. It never stops. Yeah. And then it's also like, well, like, when we can talk about it as we go too, like, this is, I think when we were just reminiscing about this or prepping for this, somebody mentioned or we all commiserated about this is a great, you know, put the vinyl on. we did put berets on and went and got a little pour over coffee before we said that it was espresso i believe yeah but i mean that's another thing is like how do you get from like if you are listening to this as an album and you're not getting screwed up by spotify doing some weird like what does it feel like to transition from each track you know it feels great yeah that's unbelievable yeah well speaking of feeling good i think this track three for me is well we'll talk about it later it might be it might be the apex this is i do it for your love and for some reason this is a favorite of well not for some reason but it is a favorite of jazz musicians as we'll talk about in a minute might have been a favorite of Steely Dance too just saying we got a brand new rhythm section on this one we got Kenneth Asher on the Fender Roads Jerry Friedman on electric guitar Joe Beck on electric guitar Joe Beck yeah the great Tony Levin on bass and the immortal Steve Gadd on the drums here force and again Ralph McDonnell on percussion we were married on a rainy day sky was yellow and the grass was gray we signed the papers and we drove away I do it for your love the rules were musty and the pipes were old all that went to is shed a comb the most Paul Simon lyric ever drank all the orange juice that we could hold I do it for your love I found a rock in an old junk shop and brought it home To you Along the way The colors red The orange bled The blue

38:42It's bizarre. Yeah, it really is. You know what instrument that is? That's vocals, right? It's accordion and vocals from an artist named Sivuka.

38:57This is why jazz musicians like it. It's a long-ass solo in the middle of the track.

39:07so an incredible song man i was just thinking like i would have been scared i mean like this is a really fun way to play on a studio record like this and i can relate and think about things but i would like the details i mean obviously with with paul's vocals and the backgrounds and the way he's i mean it's like everything is perfect i don't think it's antiseptic but it's like very much like i feel like if i played one little oh i think i'm gonna do this like you fuck the whole thing up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta fall in line on this one. You gotta fall in line. And I think maybe now I'm feeling like the Muscle Shoals rhythm section moving to this one because there's a certain stylized way that the album is produced that it kind of works.

39:45Because normally you start shifting rhythm sections, you know, on track three, their cohesion can, but it's totally cohesive flowing into it. Yeah. The most Paul Simon lyric that I think has ever been written besides maybe like Mississippi Delta shining like a national guitar, is the rooms were musty and the pipes were old. All that winter we shared a cold, drank all the orange juice that we could hold. I do it for your love. Just that little glimpse of a daily life that is unbelievably beautiful song. Yeah, just the mundane whatever. Just, you know, and it's like, but when Paul sings it too, it's like, oh.

40:24Right. Super difficult to land that. Yeah. And not be super corny. Yeah. And he does it. Yeah. Pulls it off. Yeah. Is this a good time to bring up, I have a question for you guys. Is this the ultimate sad boy album? I mean, he was going through a pretty hairy divorce. Yeah, I think so. It is. It is. But this is the best. This is also like the platonic form of that. You know, it's like if you're going to do a sad boy album, do it tasteful. Right, right, right. Yeah. Put a bunch of Fender Rose on tape. Yeah. And don't ever call her out by name. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. and then throw an accordion vocal solo.

41:04Right. Also, I think Bob James, I was listening to some of that harmony. I think he might have had a little something to do with some of the composite. The songwriting? Yeah. At least some of the, I mean, I guess that's technically not the songwriting. That's like the harmonic arrangement, but I'm hearing some stuff in there. That's what makes sense. I mean, he's in there. If you don't know Bob James, you might know him from this.

41:29I mean, who doesn't know Bob James? It's a great jazz pianist as well. Incredible jazz pianist. Bob James, incredible pianist, composer. This is Angela, the theme from Taxi, TV show Taxi. And super sweet, nice guy. I met him when I was in high school. And he was... I think I've ripped that off in so many songs over the years. Don't worry, you're not alone. No, I met Bob James, shout out Bob James, when I was in high school. And I was at this band thing in Texas, same day I met Rargo. Wow. He was in high school. but Bob James was just like I would assume he came over to me after he heard our high school band play I was like yeah you sound good he's like I'm Bob James I was like but it's just one of those guys that you know it's like he could have been like yeah you sound like shit I'm Bob James I would have given up music I would have been like you're great I guess I'm in the wrong field did you know it was Bob James before he said it was Bob James no because he was so self just like hey I'm like why would he be here so I Do It For Your Love was covered by Herbie Hancock on his 2005 album Possibilities.

42:31With Paul Simon. With Paul Simon, it sounds way different. Yeah. Actually did it, Paul asked him to do it in a minor key. Yeah. And to do it on just one chord. And Herbie's like, I don't think we can do that, Paul. Yeah, Herbie's like, I can play one note here and I'm going to put a bunch of Herbie shit on top, which is exactly what happened. That's exactly what he did. So it's just piano, percussion, and Paul.

42:56It's like...

43:00Revelle, Herbie, Paul Simon, like that stuff. Yeah.

43:10Damn.

43:30We were married on a rainy day. The sky was yellow and the grass was gray. We signed the papers and we drove away. I do it for you now.

43:51I haven't heard this in a while. This is cool. Yeah, I know.

44:10the rooms were musty and the pipes were cold man all that winter we shared this good footage of them recording this too. I mean, another feather in the cap of maybe a case for Herbie just being the goat. I mean, truly, what other jazz pianist of the big three or four that we can think of could step in and do this in this way? I mean, I don't think any of them would want to do it. Or even want to do it. Or be curious enough or open enough or have the personality that is so attractive that Herbie seems to have. You notice how much he attracts other artists. He's just a magnet for people. Paul, you know what?

44:55Listening to that too, I'm like, we've had some conversations about Paul parachuting into things, but I think Paul might have the right idea, man. Paul does. I mean, if I was, like, the idea of someone of Paul Simon's caliber and stature and culture being like, let's rework this, you know, album cut from one of my big albums. Not even a hit. not even a hit yeah and just you know it's like you know i don't know like i'm not i don't want to you know most people aren't going to do that right that's what's cool about them and that's how i would use my powers too yeah yeah i'm like let me just get with her be in the studio real quick and yep you know like man like yeah and i was just thinking a similar thing in terms of like shout out to paul simon for going in because i know that he's so detail-oriented and would understand and know that when you get in there with the studio like herbie's the sweetest nice cat but he's also going to be like like it's not going to be easy yeah it's going to be wonderful and if you're willing to come in and kind of let your guard down a little bit like there's a chance for you to kind of like he will elevate your stuff but i've heard from other vocalists that play with him they're just like it's hard like like if you're not totally open to it and to just being yourself and you can hear that like paul's just singing the thing and herbie's kind of doing different things and Paul is allowing that to kind of envelop his composition I mean he's totally reworking the thing yeah it's not the same and I know Herbie like however many takes they did everyone was different I guarantee you that that was not like Herbie's like oh okay we're gonna go to F minor Paul is that cool awesome so I mean I think that uh it is one of those things where it could be like this beautiful wonderful thing but if you're kind of because that that whole record that's a killing this on possibilities right yeah yeah there's a bunch of people and there's some I mean all of them I love that record and a lot of like hardcore jazz Herbie people are like that's his worst Herbie doesn't make a bad album man he really doesn't but for jazz folks a lot of them overlook that record because it's like I think there's I'm forgetting there's a bunch of kind of like weird combinations I think great stuff Anjali Kijo is on there I think has a really cool thing that she does this is after like the new standard era yeah Raul Me Dun he does a cool thing with Herbie but it's all people that are like yeah I'm willing to come in and you know I mean Paul was probably Actually, I think Sting might be on that too.

47:10Sting's another one that can kind of... Is he parachuting or is he walking in the front door? I know. Is he private jetting it? Yeah, Sting. That's a good question. That's a good question. Hard to know with it. What are we going to do? Our police episode, man. Come on. It's coming, man. Let's check out... The next track was a hit. Well, we do the jazz police every week. We do the jazz police every week. We're ready for that. The next track was a hit and it's 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover. Let's check it out. Problem is all inside your head, she said to me. The answer is easy if you take it logically.

47:45I'd like to help you in your struggle to be free. Something missing here?

47:54That was the Coffeehouse version without gas. No, this song, Notorious. It sounded just as compelling, though. I don't know about just as, but it sounded very compelling. Did we just start the Paul Simon remix project right now? Totally. That really shocked me, actually. Well, this song, there's not much to it. There's not much going on if we take the drums out.

48:19We've got to talk about the chorus. I know. One of the weirdest transitions ever, man. It's like two different. It is two different. It's like a lot of people hate or talk about Ozzy's, what is that? Crazy Train. Crazy Train, yeah. The transition from an intro riff to like the verse. Yeah. That's one of those, man. Yeah, for sure. It's very, very jarring. So the chorus came out of a fun rhyming game that Paul was playing with Harper with his son. Was he talking bad about his mama? It's like, listen, son, let me tell you about divorce. Sometimes you just got to slip out the back, Jack. That's exactly like what?

48:58No, it was a plaza hotel. This was happening during the divorce. Paul was playing with Harper in his hotel, showing him simple rhyming games, the rhymes they made up, made it into the song. You slip out the back jack, make a new plan stand. Was the game he was playing with his sons. Right. Dad, why are you leaving Mom? I gotta make a new plan stand. Come on, Mac. Mom was, and you gotta make a sad boy album like Daddy. Dad, can you not turn this into your album right now? I'm actually kind of broken inside. It's not about you, Dad. Do you think he had the verse or the chorus? We must have the chorus.

49:30I mean, if he's doing the rhyming, or did he have the verse and then didn't have a chorus and then he was doing the rhyming game? That's a great question. I would think if he had the rhyming, that would have been a chorus kind of. I mean, how do you backtrack from that? I've heard lore that he, you know, because so Steve Gadd is a young jazz musician at this point. He's coming out of the military and where he's, you know, in the field band of the military playing snare drum. And so that's the Gadd stuff. Like that's when he's playing his Gad shit is when he brings out that sort of, you know. Like you can hear him.

49:58There's some great videos of a drum battle with him and Vinny Caliud and Dave Weckl. And Vinny Caliud and Dave Weckl are doing some just like incredible technical fireworks. Yeah, yeah. But then Steve Gad comes in with his like, and the place just lights up because it feels like this. So I've heard, and I don't know if this is verified, but I've heard stories that Steve is like playing his military stuff. And Paul walks in and says, that's what I want for that verse and wrote the verse around the drum part. just what I've heard. I would love to see Paul's face when he heard that. I know. He's like, oh, let me grab some of that, and then I'm going to give, I mean, that's great arranging.

50:35When I hear this drumbeat, though, I don't think, like, slip out the back jack. You know what I mean? So he had to write, yeah. And the thing about Gad, too, is he's the kind of drummer, like you say, that everybody that aren't drummers are going to be like, damn, that feels good. You don't know why, But his precision, I didn't even know about him being in the middle. And I got a chance to play with him once. And I was always like, Steve Gammond. I played with other great drummers. But, man, his thing was like. All right. Can we talk about Gadd for a second? Yeah. I'm talking about it. I'm literally talking.

51:05You listen to me? Can we just. I know you're nervous with Justin here. But come on. No, no, no. I want to go. Can we talk about Gadd? Can we go in? No, I want to talk seriously about Gadd. I'm giving personal anecdotes. Check this out. So this is Gadd's. I just want to read. This is. I want to read the highlights of Gats. Step on the personal story, man. This is the good. Gats Wikipedia out on me, man. No, go ahead. You're right. I want to corner Gats for a minute. Let's do it. Let's do it. You got a plan, Stan. Come on. I'm trying to slip out the back door, Jack. You didn't even run, man. It's time, man.

51:40Okay. No need to be quiet, Ryan. Let's go. That was shit, Pete. So here's just like, I swear to God, this is 25 % of Gad's discography as a sideman. So just people that he's recorded an album with, right? And most of these, by the way, he's not on one album. He's on multiple albums. Laurie Anderson, Herb Alpert, Ashford and Simpson, Chet Baker, The Bee Gees, George Benson, Carla Blay, Brecker Brothers, Edie Burkell, Kate Bush, Larry Carlton, Ron Carter, Tracy Chapman, Ray Charles. Cyrus Chestnut Eric Clapton Stanley Clark Joe Cocker Natalie Cole Judy Collins Chick Corea Jim Croce Christopher Cross John Faddis Art Farmer Maynard Ferguson Aretha Franklin David Foster Peter Gabriel That's so random Like what's the order to this list?

52:24Art Garfunkel Alphabetical It's like Ron Carter Christopher Cross Art Garfunkel David Gilmour Dave Gruson Jim Hall Freddie Hubbard Janice Ian Milt Jackson Bob James Al Jarreau Dr. John Quincy Jones Ricky Lee Jones Dr. John B.B. King Ross Hahn, Roland Kirk, Gladys Knight and the Pips, Yousef, Lateef, David Liebman, Kenny Loggins, Paul McCartney, Michael McDonald, Teo Marcello, Chuck Mangione, Barry Manilow, Lyle Mays, Bette Midler, Charles Mingus, Peter Paul and Mary, Michelle Petrucciani, Bonnie Raitt, Diana Ross, Joe Sample, a ton of David Sanborn albums, Tom Scott, Paul Schaefer, Howard Shore, Carly Simon, Paul Simon, Frank Sinatra, Spyro Dyrus, Steely Dan, Barbara Streisand, James Taylor, Richard T, Cedar Walton, Dionne Warwick, Grover Washington Jr., Weather Report, yeah and nancy wilson jesus okay so so yeah i'm we're we weren't fully aware but now we are of his resume like he's that guy got it and that's like that's just a glimpse that's not even the full picture well no i mean i think it's like you know steve gad is this is someone i'm like when you talk to drummers he's he's not necessarily like your average drummer's drummer where they're going to talk about him first but like the great great drummers that i know like the jazz drummers especially are like he's that guy you know what i mean so like the more because i mean his technique is so high level that like it's what do they call it like you know he's like a player's player or a coach's like we're the ones who really know but also you know he makes all these artists you know want to call him back because it's wild too like mingus played with like one drummer his entire career like you know it's like danny richmond and it's like and steve gad on a very strange record You might have found the only artist that wasn't on that list, Charles Mingus, right?

54:06No, he was on that list. That's why I was like, I never would have known that. Right next to Peter, Paul, and Mary. All three of you? No, it's an insanely varied group of artists. And just, I mean, of the last part of the 20th century and the early part of the 21st century, it's like incredible. And he's on, it's not just like he's just on, you know, Bonnie Raitt. He's on like streetlights. Like he's on like. Right. Something iconic. it's the Steely Dan you know the incredible solo it's on Asia yeah you listen to that and you listen and you're like that's all of 70s and 80s radio like he just owned the radio like yeah and so think about the influence on the drummers today they came up listening to that stuff the top guys and gals like that's this is you know yeah guys let's do one more track can I say one more thing about Gadd yeah please how do you own we're in Gadd Corner let's get some safe space for Gadd let's go right back real quick then because how do you own a record in that way on an album and then you just kind of he doesn't disappear but then you just kind of like go back to you know that you don't like that is like the genius of that guy I guess you know like that you could just on every song I'm sure you could have done that to every one of these he's like well yeah this particular moment when it starts out yeah this is the one that needed it Right, I'm going to step up a little bit and then I'm going to go back to Tastemate.

55:29He's a Tastemate. It could be like validating the story that is in my conscious about the part of this song, whereas he wasn't intentionally putting this as the part to shine. He was doing this just warming up as they were getting ready and Paul Simon was like, no, that's going in. But everything he chooses to do is very subtle. Subtle. His own parts are super, and they are on that whole discography I just mentioned. And I think that's why he gets hired so much. He sounds incredible. The pocket is deep. Yeah. and he just adds the right thing at the right time and nothing more. Okay, great drummer that listens.

56:00You get gigs. How many drummers have a part that they probably get sick of being asked about? Like the way like us, like Paul McCartney must be sick of like, you know, whatever, all the Beatles questions. He's just got to be like, I don't want to answer that anymore. The 50 ways? Yeah. Oh yeah, I'm sure he's just like, yeah, I mean, I do other stuff. Yeah. And then if he's ever in a situation where there's like drunk dudes who are like, eh, dude, New Orleans. Yeah. Probably just smacks the shit up. it'd be fun to follow Steve Gadd around Nam with a camera I would avoid that if I was him well plus I think too people are always just like what was that kind of snare because drummers it's like a lot of them especially at the lower levels it's all about the gear it's like well how did you record that bass drum well you got a fucking killing ass drummer named Steve Gadd and then you put some mics up and make it sound like what he's playing alright guys let's do one more track here we're going to do Peter's favorite I'm going to say this is Peter's favorite I don't know if this is your Desert Island, Pete, but I'm guessing it's this.

56:59It's not, but it was on my list of a possible—oh, is it? No, I changed it up.

57:07Is Shampoo a Desert Island movie? No.

57:12I'm not a hater, though.

57:18It's Bob James on the roads on this one. This was weirdly in seven. Yeah, one, two, three, four, one, two, three.

57:37That's eight. And that one.

57:44Valerie Simpson on the backing vocals. Man, one of the great background vocal lines. It's so simple.

58:00Bringing Valerie Simpson and Patty Austin in on this album. Nice touch. Nice touch. Right.

58:08It's good resources to be able to pull up on. You know, it's like...

58:15I should have let Paul draft for the Knicks. You know? Like, this guy can pick, man. He can pick. Jesus Christ. Well, you know he's a Knicks fan. Yeah. Give him a chance. That's right.

58:29We got to listen to this whole track. Tony Levin is killing on me. Oh. Gad, too. Yeah. Again, Gad. Man. Just playing exactly the right shit. I got a chance to play. Like, he does not play loud. Like, even when he's grooving, like, his control of dynamics and, like, intensity of the groove are totally independent. That's what's cool about this song too. It's quiet, but it's just, it's subtle, yeah.

58:58That's a miniscord is weird, man. Not a lot of loud moments on this album. Right. Not at all. Sad boy. Sad boy. Yeah.

59:09I like this line. God bless our,

59:15God bless our standard of living. Let's keep it that way. Damn.

59:21That's a divorce line, too, actually. I know. Oh, man. Oh, man. Hopefully for both, but, you know, we're not sure.

59:37And, man, Steve Gadd, too. We're going to have to retitle this. This is like the Steve Gadd Appreciation Podcast. No, but, like, I'm so— That's what Asia would turn into as well, if you remember. But like Asia, like, so the solo on there, he's so busy, obviously, and Wayne, like, it's such a thing. But like, I appreciate what he's not playing on this. Hold on. There's so much like.

1:00:02Phil Woods. Phil Woods.

1:00:11I love the way to He's playing all this bebop And then all of a sudden It's almost like he remembers Wait, I shouldn't do it And he's like He does a little bit of Walk in the bar Kind of bluesy But then he's like He can't help himself He's just like bebopped out Do you think he just like Set up a mic And just let him run For like 30 minutes And then just Pick that bit Or like It just begs the question How? Why? I know I really like what yeah let's listen to that transition I think it might have been Paul's part of the whole like I'm downtrodden so fuck it let's just have some bebop let's have some it doesn't matter yeah okay we're gonna put it to end it's gonna lose to Stevie anyways I'm going to lose to Stevie.

1:01:06Alt, diminished scale. This is when the record label guys were like, wait, what?

1:01:13You're talking about the most traditionally... This fades out too, doesn't it? Yeah, the most traditionally marketable song on the entire... I'm just going to put a giant bebop solo saxophone. Yeah, it's not even like he comes in. Like, he could have come in. Well, first of all, Phil Woods would not necessarily be the guy. Like, that's his kind of playing. You know, he came up as one of the Charlie Parker acolytes, and it was like bebop for life, you know. But he could have come in over that groove, that one to four, you know, one to five, and kind of, or even Brecker or Sanborn, for sure. Sanborn would have crushed that.

1:01:46He's on something else on here, but not soloing. so it's kind of cool that they have him doing his thing even though it's just like what the yeah for sure and I love bebop but I'm like how do you think this album has aged I mean because it was it won album of the year 1976 I remember growing up and this was a big deal album in my parents household and their record collection I remember being in love with it from the time I was a kid look how respectful he's like his parents it wasn't his household this is definitely one of those albums that was like I inherited. So it's your parents' record in a way, if you're a certain age.

1:02:21For sure. For me, it was because my parents got married in 1975. Not divorced. Still going. And for me, this is something that... Wait, what year were you born? No, 78. Okay, cool. But I don't hear people talking about this as much. No, it's... But, you know, like... Yeah, it is weird because this is in my mind, because I came of age at a time. I feel like, you know, we're all in the last gasp of, like, boomerdom, you know? We're, like, we're seeing it in real time. Like, boomers go from, like, the heroes of, like, culture and society to long enough. Yeah, live long enough. And you're like, whoa.

1:03:04But, you know, and it's funny. Like, Night Game is on here. Like, I have this theory that I'm just going to workshop here. Yeah. That, like, peak American culture is, like, 1935 to 2005. and it's like 1935, you get canned beer, night baseball games and like Monopoly. And then like - I like where this is going. And then you kind of like get this like thing and then like peaks right around like 1970. And then you just kind of like this long tail down to like iTunes 2005 and like whatever else. And boomers are such a big part of culture. So they, you know, like in my mind, this is like an unassailable album.

1:03:42Like it's like, you can't say anything bad about it. But it does feel like as boomers have lived long enough to become villains, it's like this album is now, it's gone from maybe overrated to underrated. I think it's underrated now. It is quintessentially a baby boomer expression. Yeah. It's how a baby boomer literally deals with his divorce. Yeah. And it's a really interesting take that you would not see a similar expression today from the subsequent generations. This is the most boom. We didn't talk about You're Kind, but this is the second to last track on the album. The lyrics, you're kind, you're so kind.

1:04:20You rescued me when I was blind and you put me on your pillow, you know, whatever. You're so good to me. You introduced me to your neighborhood. Seems like I ain't had so many friends before. That's because you're good. You're so good. Why do you treat me like, why don't you treat me like other humans do? It's just a mystery to me. It gets me agitated when I think that you're so, that you're going to love me indefinitely. So goodbye, goodbye. I'm going to leave you now. And here's the reason why I like to sleep with the window open. You like to sleep with the window closed. Just go talk to a therapist, Paul.

1:04:49I know. That level of pettiness. It's like you're building up to this beautiful, and it's like the window's closed. That was just that. That's like, I don't know, that's boomerdom in a nutshell. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. That's a great call. Wow.

1:05:14Also done in the form of the blues. Yeah. In a 12-bar blues form. Again, a very boomer expression. You're kind. You're so kind. You rescued me when I was blind. And you put me on your pillow and I was on the wall. You're kind. So kind. So kind. And you're good You're so good You introduced me to your neighborhood Seem like I ain't never had so many friends before That's because you're good That's the bluesiest he gets on this record, that last line You're so good Why you don't treat me like the other humans do Paul Simon made you seven chord right there to me. Optimism. Like you said, ultimate boomerism.

1:06:10Ultimate. It keeps me agitated when I think that you know love me now. But it's over. The boys are back. We're partying in Nixon. Day one.

1:06:24Ford, he's great too. Yeah, of course. I like to sleep with the window open and you keep the window closed. So goodbye. What an asshole.

1:06:38Paul she gave you everything man She rescued you She gave you friends She treated you better than anybody Brought you into the neighborhood You're so caught Goodbye Like later I wouldn't want to belong to any club That would have me as a member For sure Wow Yeah That's the apex moment of boomerism And of divorce on this record Just like what in the world man You know what's interesting You were mentioning You know your parents Your dad Saying this was such an important I was thinking back to like why was this i didn't hear this record growing up my dad is a little older and he silent generation he he right but not only is he silent generation he didn't know this is a difference but even when i think with boomers like we're all aware like my kids are just like especially the younger ones that are like gen z they're like oh millennials man i'm like all y 'all the same yeah and i call one of them an ipad baby no the other they're clear i was an ipad baby i didn't have one until i was this age i was like okay cool but i was telling my dad this was like within the last year I said something about Boomer or whatever And he's like We had to look it up Because I was like wait are you a Boomer He's like I don't know He's like we didn't ever talk about that It's like you guys brought that thing up He didn't know what generation So I'm looking on I said oh actually you're in the silent generation He's like okay I'll shut up Is that what you're trying to say Like he had no concept I'm like how do you go 85 years of your life But like there wasn't a thing Like especially for the Boomers They were just like this is our world They redefined what it is to be a teenager and what a decade.

1:08:05The 60s. It's like this is their world. This is a very typical thing of the baby boomer generation. They created the concept of a generation being a group. And by the way, I don't disparage boomers as a generation. I actually think it's super fascinating. I also love the culture they created and I think that... That's like the most Gen X thing you've ever said. No, no, but here's the Gen X thing. Here's the Gen X thing. It's like, I'm just tired of talking about it. Let's get back to work. Because they were so impactful on our lives, the generations that happened, they're our parents, obviously, and they've created this culture.

1:08:41It's just like, can we just take a break from talking about the Beatles for a second and Paul Simon and even though that's a lot of what we talk about. But I think they're going to be studied for long after we're gone because I think it's a fascinating case of this explosion in this particular time, this particular place. make some of the most incredible art and redefine what culture is. Yeah. But I'm tired of it for now. Yeah, we're tired, but they're going to outlive. Oh, for sure. They're going to live. I mean, nothing matters. Like, what matters before 1935? What matters, like, after? Like, nothing's going to, nothing's sticky from before.

1:09:15Right. Buddy, they're still the president. And now we're all siloed. Yeah. I know. They're still president. They're still president, yeah. Yeah, and I think that, like, this, and we always, you know, get knocked for, like, we're hitting so many records in the 70s. Sue us. there's a lot of great records from that time you tell us what's sticky after you know whatever you know exactly well we were talking about it earlier we we had a list but it wasn't like the steve gad list bro teenage and 20 something boomers were an unbelievable force of nature yeah incredible and i mean look there was also a lot of luck like any kind of like generation or culture or country or people that like hit hit on something like yeah it's like remain humble and realize that you were at a time when like records and radio it was pre-internet so like there was Technology.

1:09:56Technology, everything kind of lined up. You won the war. You live in a pole. You didn't have to go to war, but you won the war. I guess you had to go to Vietnam, but, you know. Yeah, yeah. But not if you were rich. Not if you were rich. Most of the boomers that made the culture didn't go, you know. Exactly. And, I mean, also, like you said, we have great standards. Good old USA. Great standard of living. Let's keep it. Yeah, let's keep it that way. For us. For us. So, by going until now, you know, the wealth divide and everything. So, I mean. Crypto, baby, on the way out. Just going to pump a dump crypto.

1:10:23Let's go.

1:10:28Fuck the dollar Who needs it anyway That served us well now Now we're going to play it up for all y 'all Now the dollar I barely got some savings Now dollars don't matter I need crypto I give up Meanwhile Steve Guest What a pocket Those guys This is incredible. Rolling Stones, selling out stadiums. No one else can. God damn it, man. Guys, Desert Island tracks on this one. What are our votes? Peter, where you got? So I've got 50 ways to lose your lover. I think it's just like, you know, sometimes on these I like to go anti-establishment. And after just the last five minutes of talking, I kind of wish I had a little bit more.

1:11:13Bring out your Gen X quality a little more. Yeah. But now I'm going to fall in line like I should Gen X. I mean, look, that's like, to me, that's the track that there's super interesting stuff. musically, Gads, he's just killing it, of course, but it's also like, I mean, it's that, because look, I don't know if you've heard how we do this. Adam kind of likes to use this as a catch-all for whatever he missed earlier in the episode. I use it literally as if I'm stuck on a desert island, I can only have one of these tracks, what do I want it to be? So that would be it. Very subjective. Sell me out, man.

1:11:42That's what we do to each other. Justin, what do you got for your desert island track? I'm going to treat it like Peter. If I was really stuck on an island, what song would I want to hear? repeal because like i think my little town is my favorite yeah but 50 ways to leave your lover it's like i don't think i could ever i don't think i would ever be bored of it 50 years later on an island i'm not gonna be it's just it's yeah that's the mood of being stuck on an island right also could you imagine the the rhymes you can come up with stuck on an island i know with that game you'd have 50 courses of you know like and it's got such diversity in terms of palm trees it's almost two tunes you know it's like the minor then it goes to the that you know it's it's really like so I also think about this as what I would like to listen to on a desert island despite what my co-host says and I picked I Do It For Your Love I have been in love with that song from the first time I heard it and I still am Apex Moments on the album, what do you guys think?

1:12:34What you got Justin? You know what, I'm going I'm going with the writer of Mr. Magic Ralph McDonald on My Little Town. Just getting into that. That little section of that with the horns. It's driving it forward, man. The bridge on Still Crazy. I don't know, man. I'm going to go with that moment at the end of My Little Town. I'm going with the bridge on Still Crazy from the Bob James arrangement into the Brecker solo, I think is my favorite part. Okay, so we're going to change what you have written here? Gotcha. What are you talking about? I got Brecker. Oh, you got, oh, I got you. I got you. No, but you need animosity in the category.

1:13:22This is a glimpse into the off-camera situation here. Usually we shield it. We got royalty now, which kind of threw me off my game. I got to get out of here. We're still holding the grudge from the Louis Armstrong episode, so go ahead. That's right, right. I mean, I got Phil Woods, you know. That's a great moment. Have a good time. Like, he, finally somebody had it. Everyone's having a good time. Finally. But Phil gave you. Finally. some jazz street cred. Out of Sad Boy Summer. Yeah, Sad Boy Summer. Brought like Charlie Parker and the jazz police all up in that biatch. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, it's the most unusual and jarring, but I think it's a cool thing.

1:13:58So Bespoke Spotify playlist. If this were on a playlist, what would it be? I have Lauren's Hampton playlist. Paul Simon famously friends, like best friends with Lauren Michaels, SNL creator. And I just feel like if Lauren has a house in the Hamptons, which I assume he's got at least one. Yeah. That he's got an old like third gen iPod out there. That just has, it just says Lawrence Hampton playlist. It's mostly Paul Simon and, and Rolling Stones, but yeah. And then wasn't there a connection with the, was the, the first Paul Simon appearance on SNL in that first season? Well, so yeah. My Little Town.

1:14:38They do My Little Town on the very second episode of, of Saturday Night Live ever. Okay, so for Bespoke Spotify playlist, I have, okay, full disclosure here. I saw yours first, and it's so good. Lauren's hand. I was like, I got nervous, and I went to Claude for some help on this. And this is what Claude gave. But I kind of like it still. Large language model. Still spinning after all these years. Okay. Yeah. Because this, I mean, this is a great, like, this is fun listening to it. And here we can trigger this stuff. But, like, you get the vinyl going. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I should have went to Claude, man.

1:15:13Honestly, Lawrence Hampton's playlist was so good. I hate to cop out. I hate to have come all the way out here to just, you know, shrivel in the moment. But Lawrence Hampton's playlist is like, that's - It's really good. It's perfect. Thank you. I'll take it. Don't look at it more as like, you're not degrading yourself to this ridiculousness. That's the way you should look at it. Okay. All right. Up next, what is coming up next on the playlist? What are the other albums, tracks, anything that pairs with this? So on this I did – because I always like to think about, especially this stuff that's kind of before my time a little bit, like what was happening at that time.

1:15:52I always think even in history that's like really interesting. It's like – because, you know, like when we did the Louis Armstrong, it's like he's revolutionizing. Like we look back on the 20s and we think the 20s are like, ah, jazz kids. and like then you have this artist that like set up not single-handedly but more so than has ever happened is this a louis armstrong episode of paul simon i can't remember no but it's like but then you think about the 20s and like the depression and just all these things it's it's kind of amazing so 75 is not that long ago but these are three records that came out in 75 bob dylan's blood on the tracks um earth wind and fire that's the way of the world and keith jarrett's Cone Concert is the best-selling solo piano record of all time.

1:16:31Yeah, we got to do That's the World at some point. Also, we got to do Cone Concert at some point. Yeah. I like those picks. Those are good. Justin, you got any? You know, I went with CSN's 1977 self-titled just because it felt like it'd come on, you know, after we listened to this on Lauren Hampton's Hampton Playlist. It makes sense. On Lauren's Hampton Playlist. Like, yeah, I want to hear, like, Dark Star by CSN, you know. It's a yacht vibe. It's a yacht vibe. It is a yacht vibe. I'm going to go Intervisions. I'm going to go like, I want to listen to this album, and then I want to listen to the album.

1:17:06And then you're going to divorce your wife. You're going to slip out the back door. Man, I love, you know, the classic is like the pet sounds, Beatles playing off each other. But I love stories like this where someone who I think is a top-tier artist, here's another top-tier artist, feels challenged and inspired. because don't forget, Paul Simon at this point has made some bangers. Like, it's not like he's just like an aspiring artist. He's already been through Simon and Garfunkel. He's already made the self-titled album. He's already made Here Goes Rhyming Simon. And he gets beat by Stevie Wonder and he gets super into inner visions.

1:17:42And just like how we were talking about, I have this vision. I don't know if this is true, but I feel like when Stevie made Talking Book, I can hear Let It Be on that. Like I can hear Stevie listening to the Beatles and being like, I can do that, but better. And I feel like this is Paul's, maybe not i can do that but better but his like answer to inner visions and his thoughts about it not that you could ever compete with inner vision yeah but paul's not scared to like go to the mat you know sure right and i really like that thought that these two albums were like one after the other at least in paul simon's mind yeah that's great that's a great pick yeah uh quibble bits anything that you want to quibble with on this one i'm gonna go you know we talked about this a little bit but it's this is a front-loaded album yeah like the first side of this of this record is incredible.

1:18:25The second side is I, you know. It's kind of like Boomers. Yeah. The first half was... Boomers are taking strings today. We don't want to generalize. I'm just wondering like, could they have... But wasn't this the era of the front loaded? Like literally the... I have a fix for this though, and this goes in my quibble bits. Leaving Off Slip Sliding Away which was a single stupid. And the album was Slip Sliding In a way, Justin, that is genius. Well, that's the way it is now on Spotify. That's how you hear the demo of Slip Sliding Away on Spotify. But imagine Slip Sliding Away as track number seven or eight on this album.

1:19:04Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. The rescue's a second side. I mean, the second side is great, but it needed a slip side. It needed a song that good. Totally. Great call. Yeah, I think it's just like it's the whole thing of like we talk about the advantage of technology at this time. and just to be able to write stuff like this and have people's attentions and ear for a huge album like this. But there is another thing of the turning over of the record. Because I remember certain records, it was just like, nah, you don't. And that was okay. It was still worth the seven bucks or whatever.

1:19:35And that's why I think, you talk about certain records, Stevie had that run where it was like, I mean, you're talking about the apex moments on the middle of the B-side and stuff, especially if you're into music. That was an exciting thing, but that was not the norm. So Quibble Bits I have, and if you're, feel free to pause this or fast forward this for some folks if you don't want to hear this. Well, how would you know? Because you haven't heard it yet. I love the setup. Where are you going? No, some of the grooves on this record are sanitized to me a little bit. Let's dig into that. Like the whole, I mean, there's nothing that's not grooving.

1:20:10So you're saying that Steve Gadd isn't grooving. No. Is that what you're saying? Of course he's grooving, but I think he's been, and I wouldn't even, I have no knowledge. It's not like, oh, I heard they told him don't play this or don't dig in. I think it's just he appropriately played the situation. And listening to it with you guys and getting your feedback, I'm kind of turned around on this a little bit because I think situationally, especially as you go through and listen to this record, everything's appropriate. Like we get into this thing where we're really analyzing it. I'm thinking like, oh, I know what Steve Gadd can do.

1:20:36I know what the Muscle Shoals guys can do. But it's like you don't have to bring any of that. If you just take it for what it is, it totally, you know, stands on its way. but it's just like, like Steve Gag can really hit a New Orleans groove, like 2X that, no problem. So. You know what? You're not wrong, man. Because, you know, and Paul, like we listened to Cecilia, was it Cecilia up top? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then this, you know, this is the guy that made Rhythm of the Saints and then you listen to the demo of Gone At Last. Yeah. Versus not, you know, Richard T's playing is great, you know, whatever, but you listen to the demo of Gone At Last compared to the, you know, and you're like.

1:21:09Exactly. Now that's probably the most sanitized track on here. Which is weird because Richard T. I think is one of the greatest blues, gospel, anything pianist. It sounds like it's from a musical. Yeah. It's like the Wiz. Nah, that's a great idea. Damn, I'm not going to be allowed to hear that. And there's nothing wrong with the way that this is like perfect gospel musical. But you know what? Someone said, I don't know who, Phil Ramone. Someone said, white people have to listen to this, you know? Oh, I'm sure. Sorry, guys. This is totally the era for that. Yeah. And it was like, yeah, please. Paul was probably like, yeah, we need to win a Grammy.

1:21:50Richard T is killing. I don't care what anybody says. No, he is killing. But like, this is probably the least. It's weird because like the inspiration, like even you hear when it's like. It's almost like he would have been like. Like there's just little things that if you know, you're like, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you know. So to me. But again, like it's it's kind of better when you don't know how the sausage is made to listen to this. stuff because you're like wow this is gospel you know and it's like i mean my parents would totally be like oh this is gospel i hear what you're saying we're going to church i think if i could if i could paraphrase what i think you're trying to say here is it feels like there's like these are the grooves are in broad strokes like we're not getting the details that you would get in sort of like a more loose gritty situation yeah you're just letting the musicians do what they want it just feels like this is a songwriter's album and we're gonna we're gonna do this in a in the sort of broad way possible so that people in middle missouri yeah can listen to this and feel okay about it at that time yeah and yeah i mean that was done all the time and i don't know that like you know was paul simon and phil ramone and others like like i definitely couldn't see bob james being like okay i can help make these i mean i don't i don't know how conscious or if that was just sort of their default way of like oh i like gospel let's do some gospel paul wasn't afraid to like stretch you know like so i can't maybe it was it was the the zone he was in but i can't imagine paul was would have been afraid to go off the rails with you know i mean he's made whole albums where they just were just jamming yeah and then he pieced it together later yeah graceland was made is they just like he just recorded a bunch of people just playing yeah and then pieced together so yeah that has a whole other thing but um yeah i can see that peter i don't fully agree in that I do think when I think about this album, I don't think about like, oh, this has got to be like some authentic gospel.

1:23:39It's more about the expression that Paul's lyrics are telling the story of. I get that. And I think it's a balance because you could lose that pretty easily if it goes out of whack. You know what I mean? Maybe Paul felt that Stop's been a divorce album if we go too up. It's true. And there's just a cohesion thing that nowadays wouldn't matter as much because of how people listen. but like if it had been going like you know the muscle show guys were like really and then you're going you know singer song right it could be jarring it would have been probably probably would have been jarring so maybe I understand why I think they did it but alright would you have quibble bits?

1:24:17yeah I did I did the it was front loaded Justin I kind of had the same one oh that's right gotcha how snobby is it is it on the low end of the scale where it's very commercially accessible or is it at the high end of the scale where it's super snobby. Not very close. So that's how we're defining it now? I mean, that's how I've always defined it, Peter. I put this as a two. Yeah, I mean, I put it as a three just because, like, I almost think it's sort of a one, but as we mentioned before and talked about, like, it's sort of changed over time. So I don't really have a, like, is this snobby now? I mean, definitely, look, it won a grand, I mean, it was a huge record when it came out, so it's not snobby, right?

1:24:56It's a one or a ten. It's either, it's like, this is not, like, so I'm torn, It's like one or two. It's like this is quintessential New York in one sense. And so it's like a 10. But it's also like it's pretty accessible. Oh, and see, Justin has seen right through and found the fault with the snobometer. You know, there's an imprecise, incoherent measuring tool. You know what? It's kind of like a Woody Allen movie. Like it's like if you're the right kind of fan, it's super accessible. Right. But if you're not the right kind of fan, it is not. You're like, what is this? And it's a little bit outdated.

1:25:29Is a Subaru a snobby car? It's kind of like that. If you go in on Subarus. No, but it's hard to rate in the same way, right? Did you give a number? One or ten. Don't know. So it's a five. So I've fallen into that. Is that a five? Well, that's what I did. Okay. But he gets mad if I give it a five. I still think it's a one or a ten. Yeah. Well, sometimes I think the same thing, so I'll average it out. Okay, so five. I'll say five. I mean, this is so classic snobometer right now. This is perfect. This snobometer sucks. Is it better than KOB? is it better than Miles Davis' 1959 masterpiece, Kind of Blue?

1:26:00You had maybe. I know. I was about to say, he changed it. He changed it. I don't want to curse on you, but I was messed up about that. I thought about it. I was surprised. I knew he liked this record, but I was surprised. I just thought about it some more. I've been listening to it, obviously. You had an exclamation point after maybe, too. Well, only because that's been a thing of me. I usually get on Peter. Peter always does maybe or like even. He doesn't like when I say maybe. I never do it, but I kind of I did it first I did move to no into the no category okay I just think it's just not as good of a work of art as kind of it is what had you considering it as how important it was for me as a musician okay like you know again I learned that Rhodes part on like one of the first things I transcribed that wasn't jazz so that's how we're deciding if it's better than I think it's like how much stuff we learned off of no no if it's I have a personal connection to it it means it has meant a lot to me that's even as a songwriter of like of of you know i occasionally do like to write pop songs and paul simon is like my number one for learning how to because he does a similar a similar workflow that i do where he apparently does uh you know melodies syllabically first and then writes a whole form around it and then inserts a story later which is by the way insane for how great his stories are like usually when the lyrics are that good it's the other way around.

1:27:24To reverse engineer. He's like, he would be a Sudoku master at filling in blank spaces because he's just so good at that. And so it meant a lot to me personally. So yes, but I did move it away because I am a rational human being. Now I feel bad. I don't want to give you a hard time on that. No, I was thinking the same thing. I remember that. I saw that maybe. Yeah. I was surprised. Y 'all are relentless. What you got, Justin? Say hell no. Hell no. Hell no. I had that. I had a strong no. I had a no with an exclamation on another record. I gotta be more confident in that. Hell no. I mean, it's just...

1:27:58That's our first hell no one. Objectively. But I like it, because there could be a hell yes, which would be like a 11. Like, oh yeah, that's way better. We could have a whole meter. It could be like, no, hell no. Hell maybe. Hells no. Yeah. Is even, I guess, stronger. Yeah. F no, you know, but okay. Accoutrements, album cover and whatnot. I have a 10 just for the mustache. The mustache is good. I have a nine, and I probably would have done seven or eight. The reason I did nine is because I know I'm starting to see I didn't realize how influential this style is right now like there's a bunch of people kind of and it's come and gone a couple times with having the little picture within the solid background on the cover yeah I'm seeing that so that I don't know why that would push it up higher but it seems like it would be important I'm gonna say like four I like it and and like on one hand personally I like it I think it's one of his best I still think the self-titled album cover is better incredible and then like bookends is like a great but so if we're including paul it's an all-timer it's an all-timer so it's maybe like the third best but like like it might be partially like it's not like um it's just not in your face enough that i wonder if that's why the album is you know you know for for casual listeners you know i think if you're pulling something if you're going to pick a paul simon album off of like whatever streaming like i don't know if that album cover is going to like and it might be why it's aged not as great as it maybe could have.

1:29:26I mean, it's aged sonically very well. But in terms of like in the popular imagination of like what a great album is, like a more like iconic, like, you know, cover that pops. It's definitely not made for like a little thumbnail. No. It is definitely not made for that age. It's made for a 12-inch LP cover. Yeah. I think what I like about it is, you know, we're talking about the divorce. We're talking about what personal things that it means to Paul. It looks like someone snapped a photo of a guy trying to look happy when he's going through some shit. You know what I mean? It totally does. Like he's grown a mustache.

1:29:58Then he has a cowboy hat. He's definitely going through a breakup. He's got like an Indiana Jones hat. But he's from Queens. This is a man who is - He's living at the plaza. He's cosplaying. That's his divorce guy. I'm going to get some chicks now. He's got a new apartment filled with Ikea furniture that he just got. He's grown a mustache and his hair out. He's reading Nietzsche in his apartment. He's got reading Nietzsche in his apartment. He's read about 70 swingers. He grew the mustache. He's like, wait a second. It's a subculture here. Right. Yeah, well, I think that also this is such a great reminder.

1:30:35And thank you, Justin, for being here and bringing your spirit. Like, having listened to you so much, like your approach to like music appreciation and like connection is so deep. And I think, you know, we go into that and then we'll get pulled out with like, oh, the A major seven, bro. High five. But I mean, it brings back and like what you were saying, too, it's like the personal connection with these things. Yeah. Guides like the accoutrements. Right. Yeah. Like, yes, we could sit here and be like, well, the design is not according to the standards of whatever. But like when you learn a chord or like you're going through a divorce.

1:31:10I mean, could you imagine if you were going through your own breakup at the same time and you lived in New York and you like to wear Indiana? like you would connect on that you'd be like that's my man but i mean you would and you're trying to keep your standard of living going yeah paul probably got some high fives walking around the city but i mean that's the and then the music you know i think more than holds up in terms of that and then if you have that connection with it even more so so it's been exciting for me to like just experience this with with you guys this is the you were talking about what the island this is this is I don't know this is a Woody this is I don't know his final thoughts is like yeah that is the greatest like it's it's it's a I mean masterfully made there's almost nothing you can nitpick but you can nitpick you know but it's like it's just it's like precision it's great it's a great album I've gone back and forth about like whether like how much I love this or not over just the time I've been here in St.

1:32:08Louis I love it it's a great album I think it's it's at that stage of its life where people are kind of going back and forth on it yeah yeah and we all are kind of going back and forth on even that era uh on certain in certain genres and if like there's you know i think to your point about the broadness of the grooves and not going fully deep on it i think it holds it back in retrospect a little bit yeah yeah and i think even any of the quibble bits like that one or any of the things we've talked about that may be a little questionable um i think we'd have to question more the times and the way the music industry was set up at that time it's not like a paul thing or even a phil ramone thing although obviously they're part of that system but like it would be more of an a slight indictment upon that whole period you know and the system they were working with it's not the fault of but then to indict we were talking earlier to indict our current system like where's tracks or songs whatever you want to call them are much more about the atmosphere created and the vibe, this would feel a little antiseptic and a little, but like, I feel like no one, but at the same time, I feel like no one values the level of songwriting here.

1:33:16No one values that as much as they should anymore. First minute and 15 seconds in my little town. What is happening? It's insane. You would never hear that on a modern, like from one of the biggest pop artists in the world, writing a song like that, where it's just this through composed line and chords are happening and space is happening. And then there's this like hook out of nowhere. Yeah. These two incredible, iconic, angelic voices that have sung together since they were children. Yeah. And apparently we're not too fond of each other at that point. We hated each other. There's baggage there.

1:33:48But like just the way it's written with the sheen of the 70s production is I think makes it standalone a little bit. But it's interesting because that has not aged well because people don't do that. Because people don't value it. People don't do it. No one necessarily. No one has the time to like make it through like those extended verses. People don't even write bridges anymore. Let alone like a bridge that changes keys by a major third. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or a bridge over troubled water. No one writes that anymore. I think we got to go out on that. Wow. Justin, thank you so much. Man, thank you for having me.

1:34:25It's been great. Even my daughter loves St. Louis. So we'll be back. Whether you want us or not. Yeah, we gotta come do the Earth, Wind & Fire Yeah Done and done And I'm sure you guys already know about it Or listen But check out Justin on Broken Record Oh yeah With occasional guest appearances from Rick Rubin Yeah Rick's now doing Tetragrammaton But you know, we love that too I love Tetragrammaton But Broken Record I see how I'm doing that Yeah What do you got coming up on Broken Record? That you can talk about That I can talk about You know Or that you can If you wanna break news here Can I break some news?

1:34:56Can I break some news? This is the end of the pod An hour and a half pod No one's here This isn't making it to the show. What do I have coming up? You know, I'm excited. This is maybe not that excited, but I'm excited. I'm talking to John Oates next month, which I'm excited about because I talked to Daryl Hall three months ago. Right. Are you trying to mend that relationship? Are they talking? I'll say there's not. I thought like when I was talking to Daryl Hall, and I love both of those guys, but when I was talking to Daryl Hall, they got to bring up. I approached that interview by like, I'm going to pick some like songs to highlight where it's very clear.

1:35:29Like they, they, they collaborated and like, they're kind of like in my little time. Like, like I wanted to pick some stuff. It was like, look, what you guys did is undeniable without, without saying it. Right. And he wouldn't budge an inch. He was just like, John didn't do shit on me. He never has either. He said, I told him to sing that part. He never wrote anything. Like, I think he wrote half of that song, you know? So I am going to like, you know, I'm going to pull some quotes from my Daryl Hall interview and read them back to John and see what he thinks. Oh, it's amazing. It's going to be great.

1:35:59So I'm excited to do that. And, you know, other than that, man, I got a kid coming, so I'm going to take a little break. There you go. I got some other fun stuff. I don't know. Just listen to this. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Good. Well, man, we appreciate you. And this was fun. It's good to be here. Thanks, guys. Until next time. You'll hear it. Yeah.

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