Rhiannon Giddens: Black History Month Bonus

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1:29Try Claude for free at Claude.ai slash brokenrecord. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human.

2:06Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. Hey there, we're halfway through Black History Month now, and although we didn't intend to rerun some of our older conversations to celebrate the month, after realizing we needed to do something to mark Usher's Super Bowl performance and the release of the new Bob Marley biopic, One Love, we figured we might as well keep going and celebrate the whole month long. Because now we have a country album from Beyoncé on the way. Beyoncé released two songs from her upcoming album, The Night of the Super Bowl, 16 Carriages and Texas Hold 'em, to a rapturous response.

2:46Not only are the songs good, but they sparked a lot of meaningful conversations about the usefulness of genres, the way marketing shapes are listening, and gatekeeping in music. Those are all things very close to Rhiannon Giddens' heart. As a Black banjo player steeped in the American tradition and its transatlantic roots, she's been living this conversation her whole career. Rihannan also happens to play on the song Texas Hold 'em with Beyonce, which just this week hit number one on the country chart, the first time a Black woman has ever held that spot. She also played on 16 Carriages, too. So let's flash back to when we had Rihannan on Broken Record back in 2021 to speak with Bruce Hedlum about her album They're Calling Me Home.

3:29This is Broken Record. Line of notes for the digital age. I'm Justin Richman. Here's Bruce Hedlum with Rhiannon Giddens from 2021. Thank you, first of all, so much for doing this. We're talking about your new album and your last album and anything else you want to talk about. Your ballet. You wrote a ballet too, didn't you? Yeah, wrote a ballet, an opera. I didn't know about the opera. What was that? Well, it was supposed to debut last year, and then it was going to debut this year, and now it's going to debut next year. But yeah, it's called Omar. It's for the Splato Festival. And it's about Omar ibn Said, who was a Quranic scholar, 37 years old, captured, sold from Senegal, brought over on the Middle Passage, and ended up enslaved for 50 years until his death in North Carolina.

4:21He wrote his autobiography in Arabic. Wow. That sounds incredible. Yeah, it's just that there's a lot of stories within that one story. So, yeah. You know, this new record is almost all, you know, old material, traditional songs or songs that were written, you know, in that style but are recent. And all of my original material has been gone into an opera the last couple of years. So I was like, well, hopefully people will be okay. It's not an original record. But, you know, it's like it's never been my bag anyway. Writing stuff? Well, it's never been my focus. If the story is told best through an original song, I'll do it.

5:04But I was an interpreter for years before I ever thought about writing songs. So I'm never sitting down going, okay, I need to write a new album. It's like if there's no inspiration to write the song, and there often isn't, because there's so many great songs out there already. There's so much great music. So it has to be something really, I feel like I can tell in a way that's, you know, specific to me. That means, you know, I'm just not going to write for the sake of writing. Was it hard for you to start writing, having been an interpreter for so long? No, because I, you know, I don't really write about myself.

5:40I've only written a couple of songs from my points of view, and they're not on any of my records. you know I write from a cultural point of view from other people's point of view and those are the songs that you know when they started to come out it was those kind of songs like Julie like at the purchaser's option like you know these very specific trying to highlight black and mostly female voices you know that I feel like need to be highlighted and a lot of times they come through as real spiritual kind of events, you know? I mean, I have written songs, like I wrote, usually with partners, like with people.

6:21Like I wrote all of my, most of my Nashville songs with my songwriting partner from Louisiana, Dirk Powell, you know, that I could do. I was like, okay, like I can co-write songs that I'm not connected to, like in a cultural way, you know? but just coming from me, I, I, I did one for NPR. It was like songs, you know, coming out of the experiences of lockdown. And it was, I found it very torturous. Yeah. I was just like, who cares about what I'm feeling? It's like, it's my feelings and, and really my life's not that bad. What's, what do I need to say here? It was a very, interesting thing and it just solidified what I do and what I don't do.

7:10That's a very funny thing for an artist to say though. Who cares what I'm feeling? Well, I feel like everybody makes their art in the way that makes sense to them. And for me, I am the least important and interesting thing in what I do. And I know that there's amazing songs out there that have come out of people's experiences that have made a great difference to people and you know i've enjoyed some of those songs and it's a totally valid way to go it's just not my way your new album is great it's coming out in a little while so tell me about making this album you know everybody's had to adjust to this pandemic like and i say like there's just such huge differences between how how you know people who are comfortably off well off and people who aren't have had a pandemic.

8:02You know, there's been people who've never had to stop working, interacting with people because they're on front lines or their service industry or any, you know, they needed the paycheck and people who could just kind of hole up in their houses for a year. And there's detrimental things to all of it. But I just say all of it with an acknowledgement of privilege. You know, I think it's very important to do that. But to say that in general, you know, artists, musicians, there's an additional difficulty, you know, within that our very work. It's like we're like the restaurant industry, you know, it's like our very work involves people.

8:40You know, we can't just not work in an office and work at home and do emails like it's so that's been really hard. And then I just got the idea we had been playing these old folk songs that were, you know, they were just kind of cropping up. You know, I was just finding myself, you know, sit down. We sit down with our instruments and I would just start singing. And I just said, well, let's just start singing these. Let's just start doing these in the stream. You know, this is with my partner, Francesco. And it was like night and day. It was like, oh, my gosh, these songs have never been on stage.

9:13And we're doing them because we're connecting to them right now. And I said, let's just run into the studio and record these. I'm just feeling them right now. How did your situation, isolation, how did they inform the choice of songs? Well, the songs that were coming up, I mean, were ones I hadn't done in a long time. You know, a couple of them predate the Carolina Chocolate Drops days. Like it was just when I was just getting into old time music. And I think, you know, and the Italian ones were, you know, they're ones that Francesco is known for a very long time. And the two main themes of the record are like home and death.

9:49So we're like surrounded by death every day. It's how many people have died? Like literally the news every day. And then we're like, how many people have died in Italy? How many people have died in the U.S.? How many people have died in North Carolina? Are my parents going to die? Are we even going to be able to go home? You know, it's just like all the stuff that everybody's been dealing with. but like that's in the air all the time so these you know stuff like oh death just comes up and the idea of not being able to go home and so these songs are not just any songs but they're songs when I was really coming into my own as I as a as identifying as a North Carolinian you know like Like for me as a mixed person, multiracial, but like there was no space for that when I was a kid.

10:40It was like black, white, and other. And you had to check a box. And I had this existential dilemma every time I filled out a form. Did you fill it out differently at different times? I did. Sometimes I fill all the boxes in. It depended on how much in trouble I would get. So it was like the SAT or something. I like, you know, I put it black because I was I talked to my mom about it and she was just like, look, you know, for all intents and purposes in this country, you're considered black. So that's what you put down, you know. But, you know, I circle that in. I think of my dad who's white, you know, and I'm just like.

11:16And back then I didn't understand the nuance of the one drop rule and the history and all that stuff. All I knew is this doesn't feel right to me. You know, neither one feels right. So when I started finding the music of the root music of North Carolina in my early 20s, that's when I started going, oh, I know I know what I am. Like, forget the color. I'm just like North Carolinian. And it really tied me to a sense of belonging and a sense even though I've been living in North Carolina my whole life other than college. But all of a sudden I felt like, oh, okay, I know what that means. And I found that through the music.

11:52So when I sing these songs, it takes me back to that feeling of belonging, you know, at home. It's interesting. It's just like stuff I would have never thought about recording ever. And they're coming up and just like sing me. I'm like, okay. What's an example of one of the first songs that occurred to you that you should put in this album for that reason? Well, like, you know, Black as Crow came up. And that was one of the first old time tunes I ever learned. I still remember learning it from Steve Terrell. I wrote the words down. Like he's a kind of a stalwart in the old time community in Greensboro, North Carolina.

12:32And I'm just thinking it was so beautiful. and then in and of itself it's dealing with being separated from your loved one and you know i wish that i was going with you or you were staying here you know and especially in the beginning of the pandemic you know francesco and i we don't live together because we have children who go to school in different cities so we live where they live and it's two and a half hours apart so there were times when we were locked down like it was serious lockdown and like we didn't even couldn't even go see each other so it's just like all of those thought and in thinking about people who were separated you know continents separated from their loved ones and not able to go see them and you know and there's a lot of songs about that because we haven't always been able to travel as easily as we as we do now that just came up and then it's like the combination of taking this really old song and feeling like so it's an old song on its own so it just has this connection this kind of deep connection right to humanity and then it's got this additional connection that i have you know as a north carolinian feeling like a north carolinian missing north carolina and then we're doing it in a way that would never be done back home you know the way that francesco plays the cello banjo, which was originally owned by Mike Seeger.

13:55Oh, is that right? Oh, wow. Yeah, because I knew him and his widow. When he died, Alexia made sure that his vast music collection, she let people that he knew and who knew him first come pick instruments to buy to be passed on to. And so I picked that in a beautiful little banjo. and that tello banjo had been sitting in my house like I'd never played it I didn't know why I bought it you know but I just loved the sound of it beautiful shape he put these strings on it just made it sound like a lute and then Francesco came to my house and picked it up and started playing it and I was like well that's why I bought it there you go yeah and so that's all over the record that banjo sound what we found that banjo and my viola so it's just like there's a lot wrapped up in that and then Emer is bringing in Ireland with the flute, the Irish flute.

14:49And so it was just a really, I felt so fortunate to be able to have been able to have that time. You're in Ireland now, right? Been in Ireland since last March. We came from Australia. What's it like now to observe, because you are a North Carolinian, you're an American, what's it like to be out of the United States for now a year, which is probably what you didn't expect. I didn't know. It's been hard. It's been weird. Is part of it a little easier? You know, I'm thinking of people like Baldwin who found life abroad. It relieved them of something. Well, in normal days, yes. It was kind of a breath of fresh air to come to Ireland, you know, because this is my work.

15:34Like when all the stuff went down on the way it went down last year, you know, people were calling me up and asking my opinion about stuff. I was like, my opinion has not changed. I've been talking about this 15 years, go away. It's just like, I'm not surprised by any of this, you know, but in the, in the before times, you know, I would be on the road talking about minstrel shows, coon songs, slavery every night and my, you know, interviews, blah, blah, blah, doing this, doing that. And then I'd come back to Ireland and just kind of take a deep breath. And it's not, you know, that the specter of that, I mean, they have other issues here, but the specter of that is not here.

16:12And I do, I definitely understand that of just being away from it when it is your work. But that again is different all together than being completely unable to go back to the well. And then when all this stuff is going on and people are protesting and I'm just like, I have nothing to do and I can't do anything there. You know, like all my gigs have been canceled, but I can't even help. We'll be right back with more from Rhiannon Giddens and Bruce Hedlum after a quick break. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

16:50T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Oocla Speedtest, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity, even in times of high demand. With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private it for you, your team, your clients.

17:27And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite to mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, Supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S. where you can see the sky. Best Network Based on Analysis by Ukla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 1H 2025. The greatest music stories aren't always in the songs themselves. They're in the late night studio sessions, the chance encounters, and the cultural moments that shaped entire movements. For music lovers who find themselves going down rabbit holes about their favorite artists, Claude, an AI thinking partner, helps you explore those deeper questions.

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18:58Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them.

19:36Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. We're back with more from Rhiannon Giddens. You know, the sense of missing someone in folk music from Africa, from Scotland, I assume from Ireland, is often about missing people across a whole ocean. And that's sort of embedded in the music. So you must have felt that quite strongly when you were playing some of these tunes. Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen my family in over a year. Francesco, like, especially in the beginning, like Italy was hit really hard.

20:15Like people were dying left and right. And like his he had relatives who got sick and, you know, just the stress of like, if something happens, I can't even get there. It comes out in funny ways in the album because your version of I Shall Not Be Moved, which is an old spiritual, which has been adopted by the labor movement, the civil rights movement, and maybe the words there are movements because suddenly it's a song about not being moved, not being able to move almost. Were you thinking that when you were recording it? I recorded that because for me, that was my connection to Joe Thompson, who was the black fiddler from Melbourne, North Carolina, the elder that I learned his family's tradition.

20:58Can you explain a little bit of when you met him and who he was? Of course. Yeah. Joe Thompson was even more important than we knew when we started going down to see him. he was a massively important person he was the last of a family of black string band traditions it had been passed down as a family tradition he was part of the thompson family band they played for the white and the black square dances in his area because everybody used to do this is what people don't understand because that's a whole nother reason there's a whole nother story why people don't know that and he was the last of his family to be playing this music and nobody else had picked it up and the people he used to play with were dead his you know his cousin and his brother.

21:38And so he was playing with white musicians, you know, wonderful people in the area. And then me and the other two original Carolina chocolate drops, Dom Fleming and Justin Robinson, started going down to Mebane to play with them because Mebane was like 45 minutes away from where we all lived. And he passed on his family's tradition to us, you know, so he lived to be 92. And we're incredibly lucky to have had him because we I found out later through the work of John Jeremiah Sullivan, that he is the musical descendant of Frank Johnson, who was a very famous black string band musician from the 1800s and bought himself out of slavery with his fiddle.

22:20And there's been an oral tradition that's been passed down from Frank Johnson to Joe, not to us. So it's just to have that connection to the once vast, incredibly influential, super important Black String Band tradition that's now almost completely gone is, you know, I sometimes like hyperventilate a little bit to myself when I think about like how close we were to missing, you know, having a living connection to that. So I feel the responsibility and the importance of that quite a lot. And so anytime there's an opportunity to include one of his songs or to be able to talk about him. And that one in particular, I had quoted when I wrote a song earlier this, what was last year, I wrote it around Juneteenth, and I performed it with Yo-Yo Ma, and I did a performance of it, a little video of it.

23:18It's called Build a House. And it's just, you know, kind of lamenting about the idea that African Americans were like brought to the United States, built so much of the United States, and then continuously are, just seems to me that people just want us gone, you know? And it's just like, yeah, I don't know. It's just, I was just really despairing of everything. And I wrote this song, and at the very end, it says, you know, I will not be moved. You know, you brought me here to build your house. I built the house. I wrote my own house. You burned it down. I wrote my song. You took the song. But you know what?

23:55My well is my well will never run dry and I will not be moved. You know, it's a direct quote from not just I shall not be moved, but from Joe. Was there something idiosyncratic or very particular about the way he and his family played this music? Because it's, you know, not all fiddlers are the same. Things can be very local. Are there things you learned from him that you just wouldn't have learned technically from other fiddlers? yeah when you know all three of us were just learning old-time music when we started playing with joe so everything that i learn everything that i i play now is inflected by playing with joe and with kind of absorbing that and it's very rhythmic it's very i learned a joe could do more with like six notes you know a lot of people could do with 25 i mean he just kind of an effortless being in the groove with the groove you know there's something about being a dance musician that you just cannot fake you know and we have you know we I played for dances and so it does it does affect everything that I do and and the and also the way he's saying so when I'm singing he had a beautiful voice and it just kind of came out of him in this way and And so that affects how I sing these kind of songs too.

25:18And then in this particular song, the way I did it, the way he does it, which he didn't put a space in between the end of one verse and the beginning of the next. So it's not like it's, I shall not, I shall not be moved. I shall not, I shall not be moved. Like a tree planted by the wall. I was hearing you do that. I shall not be moved. Climbing Jacob. Right? So there's no space. It's not. I shall not be moved. Climbing Jacob. That's what, you know, that's what we usually do, right? You have the ending and then the beginning of the next thing. But there's something about that, you know, I shall not be moved climbing Jacob's ladder.

26:21I shall not be, you know, there's something about that. You know, it's very simple. But the thing that you got from Joe was that it never ended. You know, it was just like this rolling river of sound. And he would just kind of dip his foot in it and then take his foot out. Does that come out of playing for dances, that idea that you just keep going? I think it comes out of playing for dances. I think it comes out of just being saturated in that music. Him and other old timers, you know, they're gone. That life is over. He was born into a community and he died in that community. And he had a function in that community.

27:05There was no thought to it. It was just like my, you know, daddy played fiddle and then I played fiddle and, you know, I played with my brother. And as soon as we were old enough, we took over the dances. You know, he became a performer, but he was a function musician. He was a community musician. And it was music that he grew up doing. And that's a special thing. And I would never pretend like that's what I do. Do you think that kind of world can exist, can coexist in the world as it is now? Not everybody's waiting for the dance on Friday night. it's not a necessary tradition the way it probably was for many people oh sure i mean that was the entertainment i mean the reason why it died is because tv came i mean as unfortunately tv is a is a great culture killer it's just this kind of stuff i mean it's not to say that stuff didn't survive that it did obviously joe could still play and sing but it wasn't it changed function that music changed it was then it became performance music for a ticket price and mostly white people in the audience and all this kind of stuff.

28:06And that's just, it just changes it. And it doesn't mean that it's not as good or doesn't need to be done. It's just different. Tell me why, particularly the black history of string bands and country music hasn't survived or isn't widely known because that's, you know, many people, you know, they look at you as someone who has really highlighted a tradition that very few people know about. You know the exceptions that Johnny Cash was taught guitar by a black guitarist. So I think it was Hank Williams. There's a lot of mentors who are African-American, but they weren't well-known. Their students were well-known.

28:50Why isn't the African-American string band tradition as well-known as the Carter family or other mountain music. What happened? On the Carter family, another example, you know, Leslie Riddle going along with them. And a lot of that music would have come from how he wrote it down, how he discovered it. And he's given no credit at all. No, definitely, certainly no royalties. Isn't that funny? And I think he had a lot to do with teaching Mabel how to play the guitar. And that is the guitar method for so much country music. Yep. It's everywhere. We're everywhere, except for, you know, in the consciousness of the majority of people.

29:33I mean, I realize I'm asking a long question that has a very simple answer. It doesn't. Well, it has an answer, which is racism, but. No, no, it's not that. It's, look, I'll give you my perception of it. Like, as I've been researching it and giving lectures on this, I'm not a, I have a music degree. That's my disclaimer in Western art music. So all of this has been self-researched just as I'm trying to find the answer. So as I've been doing the research, I find three reasons and they're interconnected. Racism is one of them. Absolutely. And actually racism is under all of it. So in a short answer, you are correct, but that's not enough for people because it's too big.