Fom market stall to category leader: The Pip & Nut story

0:14Hello and welcome to the Tomorrow Brands podcast, where we explore what it takes to build a brand of tomorrow. I'm your host, Ruth Vitock, and today's guest is Pippa Murray, founder of one of the biggest success stories in UK FMCG, Pip and Nut. In this episode, we get into the reality behind that growth, the early signals, the tougher middle years and the recent rapid growth, and how purpose, patience and brand clarity have shaped Pippa Nut into the category leader it is today. Let's get into it. Before we get into the story of Pippa Nut, it'd be great to hear your background pre-Pippa Nut, how you got to where you are now, and maybe the original idea as well.

0:50Pippa Murray:Thanks for having me. I've got to roll back 12, 13 years. So it was back in 2013 when I first had the idea for the brand. Pre-Pipper Nuts, I was 24, 25 when I had the idea. So I was pretty early days in my career. I wouldn't even necessarily say I had a particularly long career before this, but I was working in the creative arts as a theatre producer. So I was not in any way business background. If anything, I always thought I'd go more into the charity sector. Dad's doctor, my mum's a nurse. I've got three older sisters. they will work in either the public sector in some sort. So I feel like I'm the one that's deflected to the dark side of business, but it has always meant that.

1:29Pippa Murray:But there are lots of threads that link into why I started what I did and a big part of it was food as being like a really big part of my childhood, my upbringing. I also studied anthropology at university. So I've always had that curiosity of people, I think, and anthropology in particular is all about material culture and social. So I think there's certainly links there that have linked back to, I guess, why brand and marketing and brand building I enjoy so much because it is a it's a social game then the idea of the product and why I started with that was a I was a marathon runner and doing lots of running naturally in my part in my time off and yeah Not Butter on Toast was my go-to pre-post run I loved the stuff and always did I loved it as like this slightly addictive treaty product but back then when I had the idea for the business it was category largely filled with palm oil like pretty homogenous in terms of brand there wasn't anyone I felt that spoke to me as a younger consumer in that like more lifestyle space and there was just nothing really like setting the world alight in this space yeah I thought the product itself had so much potential and I really loved it and so yeah I started literally tinkering in my kitchen and that's where it started yeah not one like light bulb moment I would say but like lots of threads that link together I think as to why it's led me here today and you used to do those little sachets didn't you I remember and they would be like sampled at runs and things for people on the go were they an important part of the early brand yeah so we started with a range of so nut butter is where i started and we had some jars and we had we called them squeeze packs sachets which definitely a bit inspired by running because i was like in some ways like you could have a spoonful of nut butter before right like before you go out for a run is like quite common i think or at least i used to do it so it felt like you could have that as almost like your on the go version or something that you potentially She could even eat post-race as like a bit of refuel.

3:19Pippa Murray:There was like a core, like solid fan base for them. But I think they were just too early. So they were a bit inspired by the running side of things. And I guess trying to like, I guess, push the boundaries of the category of what could be possible. But about three, four years in, we decided to axe them. It just sounds like they could come back. I think they could. They still come on to our innovation pipeline discussions. Shall we bring them back? Shall we not? What were the early signals that this might work? Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I think there are lots of little things that start to, I think, build into saying this product and then brand has potential.

3:55Pippa Murray:I'd go even as far back as I started the business initially on a market store. So I would trade at the weekends whilst I did my day job, just road testing the products mainly. The brand was Pippa Nut, but it wasn't as you see it today. and even just seeing every week I'd sell out of the market every week consistently it was like one of those little signals and then you step one step forwards and we I did a crowd fund before pre-revenue raises about 120 grand that I raised in on eight days on Crowdcube and that was four months before the brand launched and that was like another signal being like okay I managed to do that somebody believed enough to chuck some money at it there's some signals there and then when you get in the market even as simple as like you're sampling in a selfridges and people's immediate reaction or response to something or they sample it and then quite quickly buy it it's another signal so you continue to layer these on but i think that the probably more of a bigger shift and bigger tipping point was definitely at the end of the first year when we got our first major supermarket listing that was a pretty major milestone of sainsbury's they took us into 500 stores four products right from the get-go it's relatively little track record at building up to it and it was for me I think huge validation and it was a proper national listing which felt like a moment for us so I think when we got that listing at Sainsbury's about six months later the buyer and at the time because I had no retail experience I called up my investor at the time being like oh just to let you know that they're just they're going to add an extra four SKUs and they're going to roll everything out to 800 stores and I was like oh the normal course that you normally do now I know how hard it is to get those sort of extra incremental listings and extra distribution but it was a really short space of time that they decided to then take us into a shelf and a half and actually that was that between year one and year two that was what was a huge driver of the growth and within Sainsbury's in particular it was just like a perfect demographic fit like they were a big retailer obviously but they also had the audience that really spoke to us as a brand and which we spoke to so clearly so that for me was like initial momentum and a tipping point that then also it got the pull through on Strelf as well to warrant the extra distribution.

6:00Pippa Murray:So there was validation there, I think. That is very fast for your first year. What? There must have been a lot of kind of rapid learnings in that time, I imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Supply chain is always like the first, you celebrate the listing and then you normally at some point have your head in your hand thinking, how are we going to supply it? And particularly at that time, I remember we had zero terms with our manufacturers. So that classic cash flow problem where you've got to buy basically all of your stock up front and then get paid however many days 60 days later for the delivery once you get it into depot and i do remember like having to scrounge around our investor base for loans to be able to fund that production run because the volume was so mad and i guess a real first learning of the importance of cash flow and scaling the least exciting thing but the thing that will stop you in your tracks if you get it right.

6:48Pippa Murray:I think the other thing was just, it was an amazing opportunity to get that distribution, but we definitely didn't deserve the distribution, really. If you looked at that point, we didn't buy any data. We were relatively blind in terms of our actual performance. And so when you suddenly step into so many doors and you suddenly have to get that pull through, the reality of how do you do that when you're still a relatively small brand and you've just got all this distribution, you've got to hold on to it and some of it is about telling good stories to the buyer and like trying to weave enough information or stories from the scraps of data that you do manage to claw onto to justify the long-term potential of the brand buyers play a big role in are they willing or not to give you a bit more runway to prove yourself and then it's about trying to test and learn as much as possible in in what works in terms of from a brand point of view to get that pull through and getting the right again not the most sexy bit but the right price and pack formats that actually work for your category and your brand and I think some of those things particularly commercially I think I overlooked in terms of the importance of the right price points for formations the right frequency to really get the trial and all those things which actually they all hang together they're all part of that marketing playbook but yeah you have to learn quite fast and you're often doing it whilst you're doing it you're having to also be really reactive to the buyer being not always that happy so I think that was the other really big learning is knowing your category well and starting to be less about just telling the story and being passion driven which is super important when you're selling to the trade but being days driven as well and being a bit more rigorous around your commercial side of things for sure.

8:28Pippa Murray:What did the team look like at that point? Yeah we were a really small team so Pippenart's been proper bootstraps we haven't raised that much money over the years like the most we've raised and the 12 years or 11 years that i've been running the brand is just under three and a half million and at that stage we'd only had 100 grand into the business so largely it was really brilliant relatively young hungry individuals not a lot of experienced talent at that point but incredibly talented and people but just more all-rounders but did start at that point layering in extra people like particularly ops I spike in brand and commercial ops is probably not where I get my energy I think that's probably not unusual for a lot of founders so quickly realizing you need someone who can really manage your supply chain and particularly ours where we buy a lot of nuts that are really volatile commodity and if you buy it badly particularly because they drive so much of the cost of your product.

9:24Pippa Murray:So I did start to plug in a bit more experience where I needed, but mainly just for very hungry individuals, of which our third employee, Jessie, she's still in our brand. She's our head of brand. So, you know, some have been on the journey now for a long time and grown in the business, which has been amazing to see. Is there anything you miss from that early stage? Yeah, there are rose-tinted glasses that I have sometimes, although I still remember every month for the first two years I would count every month and I'd be like we're still in business and it would be a genuine thought every month being like managed to make it another month I remember getting to two years and being like with the business folded now it wouldn't be embarrassing because at least I got it to two years so every day you're lucky that you felt that you were still there because it was so volatile so you can get rose tinted glasses about how fun and exciting it is but actually the pressure and stress you experience in that two years is constant because you're always worried that you are going to not make it to the next month or at least I was but the things I do miss is I'm a proper doer I love sweating the execution I love getting my hands dirty and being at the events and doing the samplings I get quite a lot of joy and sense of satisfaction from the doing and that is the thing that I have to sometimes do it's not like I don't do stuff but you're almost my job now is to enable other people to do amazing things and I think You get further away from being able to execute the idea that you have.

10:49Pippa Murray:I feel like you're there to help facilitate other people to have those amazing ideas. So I think I do miss that. We do events. We did lots of partnerships for the likes of Nike as an example. And I'd literally be there driving the van, getting the stock, going to the... We'd do toast bars, getting bread and fruit from the market. And I miss that feeling of being all in it, which was just really exciting. And that energy you have in the first two, three years is like nothing else. I don't know if it was just being in my early, mid, late 20s or it was just the adrenaline that you're on. I'm not saying I don't have passion now.

11:21Pippa Murray:It's a different sort of pace that you bring to it. So I miss that in some ways. The naivety that you have, you're so green and everything's an opportunity. You've had very little things really go wrong. So you just have none of the baggage. Whereas I feel like I've got baggage now. You've just set off on the marathon and it's like the first mile and you're feeling great. And now you're probably at 18. Yeah, exactly that. I'm like, this is still quite a long road. I'm still going. That's such a good analogy. It's exactly like that. Quite a rapid early build then into Sainsbury's in the first year.

11:56What did the next few years look like in terms of gaining momentum? Did you move into other big retail quite quickly from that point or did that happen more slowly?

12:07Pippa Murray:yeah I think Pippinut's a really unusual one because so we've been going 11 years as of this year and we had a really fast start as I said and I think the middle patch for us actually I think there were a few years that were tougher years that wasn't that exponential growth we were either figuring things out across the brand or making maybe making some mistakes that didn't give us the grace that we thought we would and it's actually really in the last sort of three four years where something has shifted the tipping point has happened for us as a brand and we've experienced higher growth than we've experienced really since that first year and it's really exciting to be doing that at scale as a business that's now 10 years old to be growing upwards of 60 % year on year it's amazing but we've had some tough years in the middle and I think there's a few thing that threads into that we're in a relatively low frequency category nut butter isn't like a drink which you might pick up on impulse it takes a really long time to recruit shoppers into the brand once they're in they're like really sticky two and a half three frequency and the category a year to try and interrupt a shopper is actually quite difficult to disrupt but when you do it's that's what I mean once you get that tipping point it's suddenly all the ball and the rock starts rolling down the hill as opposed to pushing it up we also know we made loads of successes I think with our core but I think we we did at points get distracted by stuff so like we had a range of almond milks that we launched in our third fourth year of business which didn't make it past a year and a half but hugely distracting because it was trying to crack a new category in a plant-based milk space that was in decline by the time we got the product out the door with a product that it needed more work that it was too short a timeline on the development so it's like some hard lessons learned I think about how do you do innovation when do you start to do innovation outside of your category were things I think that we figured out and have now more mastered I wouldn't say we have mastered it but we're nearly we're much better than we were and that's not to be pessimistic about that middle period but I think this expectation that every year is going to be like exponential growth isn't always a reality and I think sometimes it takes you time to work out from a brand what your guardrails are how you show up and how you scale is is something that's not necessarily linear and I think for us has been a bit of a different journey than maybe other brands.

14:15Pippa Murray:How did you stay motivated during those sort of slower tougher years? Yeah I think it's never that I didn't think the brand was brilliant because I think Pippa Nut is just such a distinctive beautiful emotive joyful brand so I think there's a huge part about knowing that the brand actually did have really good traction especially in our core part of our business our nut butter was always just a constant it was always growing it was sometimes the things outside of that we were trial and testing that was difficult but I think for me and it's been probably one of the learnings over the years is measuring success not just by like growth or EBITDA, but actually like what it is that you're trying to do.

14:58Pippa Murray:And I've been out to B Corp, became a B Corp in 2019 as a trustee on B Lab UK. So I'm a big believer in business as a force for good actually means, and not just for your individual business, but for society as a whole, and get a huge amount of reward from the job of making the brand. And I think that for me is more exciting, is how can you really build, like an impact driven business and the measure being there for the success of how well you're delivering on your purpose as opposed to did you just grow by an extra 40 % year on year so I think that is trying to make sure you're measuring rather than external things that are validating you but more what you are intrinsically motivated by is the thing that I lean on more and I think as I've got a bit more mature in the business like that for me is like the real driver and the team to be honest the team are fantastic and I think when you have tough years it sounds cheesy but I do think it makes them the good years your rocket feel because you know you don't work any less hard if you've had a year that maybe isn't a rocket a huge growth year you work still just as bloody hard and so I think when it then comes to you and you get that tipping point it's just so exciting and team deserve it culture is everything and I think that actually sometimes your culture is made in those slightly harder years when it's not always been easy it's great experience as well isn't there you mentioned earlier that you haven't had to raise much do you think that's helped with the definitions of success if there's less sort of pressure from investors because it can be very then bottom line focused yeah yeah if i were to ever do it again maybe i will but i try and raise this to a level ask me again in 20 years time if i do but the more control you can have in your business the better and just raising lots of money for your business does not equate to success.

16:47Pippa Murray:For me, we look at capital efficiency a lot. Like for every pound that's gone into a business, how much has it returned in terms of growth? And I think that's a bigger test of whether you've been successful. And Pippenat has been a really capital efficient business. We've raised very little, but we've delivered a hell of a lot for the money that we have. But I do think, like I said, if you can be really careful about what you raise and where you raise it from, the more control you can have on your business, the better, i.e. the less diluted you are and the fewer voices you have around the table.

17:16Pippa Murray:And therefore, the more clarity you'll have as a brand because you're not being pulled left, right, centre to deliver some sort of KPI for someone. And you can be braver as a brand for when it comes to like sustainability. This last year, we've set up the Pippin' Nut Foundation where 10 % of our profits are going to charity. And to be honest, I was quite nervous about putting it in place because I was like, are our board going to back this? And they did and they were really supportive. But it's a huge investment. If you think about it, particularly now we're at scale, Well, it's six-figure sums that are going to the foundation every year and indefinitely, and it's on every pack, so it's permanent.

17:49Pippa Murray:It's permanent as it ever can be, but I think it's because we've got great shareholders who are not short-term and they're patient capital, they are more willing to allow us to deliver on the purpose in the way that I believe the brand should be. So I think, yeah, control is a really important one. And I think then if you become mindful when you're raising capital, it can mean that you can look after the brand more in later years as well. I love that you've gone sort of full circle that you thought you were going to go into charity and instead you built a brand which now has its own charity. Yes.

18:21Pippa Murray:Yeah. That's it. I'm just exactly. It's definitely a part of who I am, I think, in terms of how my values. What would your number one piece of advice be to a founder who might be on the brink of that stage of growth? yeah it's interesting isn't it I think that stage of growth I think really being trying to keep control of your business I think we definitely made mistakes in those years where you know for instance we'd spend way too much money on marketing before the sales came in or and things like that which were quite difficult when it comes to then when you're trying to manage your fundraising and things like that so I think my advice would be firstly is to keep close to the numbers because I think in that early stage you're so fragile and things can really tip really quickly I'm an eternal optimist and so it was just making sure you're surrounding yourselves with those people that can be those realists that kind of ground you as well get a great head of finance FDs honestly wish I'd done it earlier within the business as well because I think they can help balance you out and that's that team piece I think is just so like critical it's not necessarily just hiring like really expensive people but actually the right people that enable you to do great work is such an important part in that stage being super selective faster doing it.

19:32Let's talk about scaling and growing pains as I know there are many or just pick one of the biggest growing pains as you started to scale quickly in the last few years.

19:45Pippa Murray:That is a hard question to just do one because there is never just one but to pull on maybe a different thread. I think one of the things that we found as we've scaled up so we're about a team 40 in the team now and that's grown steadily over the years I think is around how do you move quickly as quickly as you did in a small five-person team as you do in 40 and it's an interesting one like extra people doesn't necessarily mean that you are more efficient and you can move faster sometimes it can actually do the opposite and I think it's something that over the years we've really tussled with like there has definitely been moments where in the years we felt that you're making decisions for instance by consensus as opposed to actually having clear decision making processes and i read a few years ago about actually the thing that slows people down the most is their scaling is the fact that they haven't defined how are decisions made in a business and if you are bottlenecking everything up to the top then you are just going to become this slow dinosaur that you were always trying to challenge when you started the business so it's quite a boring thing but thinking really about how you operate within a team and try and push like as much autonomy down the business because you hire great entrepreneurial talent because you want them to be entrepreneurial with it so trying to not slow your team down is the thing that I probably stress about the most and and with that I think it's a combination of many things one is good decision making processes but writing things down being really clear about I don't know standard operating practices if you take brand as it as one example really clear brand guardrails really clear tone of voice so that people can then run at it and it's you've got to write things down that are in your head because you can't assume it's just going to flow by osmosis when you're a team of 40 people 100 people so being more rigorous in how you articulate how you do things I think enables then your team to succeed and actually someone that is not particularly process driven and I almost have a allergic reaction to having to do this it really doesn't come naturally to me but I do see the brand flourishes when we can create that environment for people to thrive and know what they're doing so yeah that'll probably be my biggest pain point and we're still working on it so you're now the UK's number one peanut butter brand amazing when has that sunk in?

22:08No I'm not sure if it ever will but yeah it's still going yeah to go from being the challenger to the category leader is not a common story in FMCG so it's a huge achievement what how does that change things so you just spoke about hiring people that are entrepreneurial is that still really important to you even though you're now the category leader? yeah great question we became number one we tipped over in october last year so we're four

22:37Pippa Murray:months into this different position that we're taking and i am eternally paranoid so i think that's one thing you've got to always hold is it's never going to just stay constant like the landscape's always changing but i think the way i think about it i mean it's not like the job was we wanted to become the number one it's like really our job is about helping people eat food that's healthier, more natural, more sustainable. So really the challenge and the tackle in Nutbuster, at least, is 43 % of households consume nut butter. Like in the States, it's 90 % household penetration. And at Nutbuster, it's a great source of protein, fiber, etc., etc.

23:13Pippa Murray:So if anything, the challenge is more that than necessarily making sure we stay ahead of our competitors. Having said that, I do think you need to constantly remind people that even though we're slightly bigger, We haven't, as we've grown as a brand, we're not going to win by just playing like them. And we have to make every pound in our business equal three every time we do something because we will still have to try and keep ahead and move with momentum. So, yeah, I think you have to continue to remind people that it's not a given, that this is going to stay this way. You have to continue to be on your front foot at all times.

23:50Pippa Murray:And as a brand as well, we're starting to stretch into other spaces. So we're in just pushing into the world of snacking in the last three, four years. Suddenly we're now another small fish in a big pond. And we're starting to do international as well. So we're starting to start some markets up from scratch. So where we have not established the brand at all. So all these things mean that whilst you've maybe achieved a certain level of success in one area, you're also still right back at the beginning in many other places. So you still have to bring that energy to the brand. That was going to be my very next question.

24:21disrupting a new category do you think was part of that in some way because you miss it

24:27Pippa Murray:definitely love a challenge it's funny isn't it when i first started the business you're like the vision was get into waitrose and then the vision is get into all the national retailers and you're like get to number one so that you're always pushing it and i think that's a restlessness that definitely is in me that you're never really done which is frustrating i think my partner finds it incredibly annoying but i think ultimately it came down to we believe the brand a is has bigger potential to solve some of the issues that we see in the food industry around processed products or people not necessarily getting nutrient rich food that actually the role of nuts in people's diets is like really important and when you think about plant-based and plant points and fiber so the job wasn't just done by getting into one category and actually the brand has so much potential.

25:14Pippa Murray:And we saw similar issues in snacking as we did in Nut Butter. A lot of products still contain a hell of a lot of palm oil, even more natural brands that still have really long ingredient lines and wouldn't necessarily recognize everything from your kitchen in their product. And taste isn't always delivered for consumers. People still find that, particularly in cereal bars, that they're not necessarily delivering when it comes to their expectations from a taste point of view. We saw similar problems that we just wanted to tackle as a brand and ultimately as well. you know we're a nut based brand nuts are really common thing to eat as part of snacking products so it felt like we had a right to play there a reason to stretch over into a different space you mentioned earlier that there'd been some innovation that hadn't gone so well that had been a big distraction do you think that helped this innovation and made it more successful yeah i think there definitely were learnings about how to do innovation properly that took from that experience from Alma Milks.

26:12Pippa Murray:We also did a lot more in terms of testing with consumers about where we should travel next in terms of as we started to explore cross-category and looked at where could the brand travel to. There were loads of different themes and areas that we explored and to try and understand, because I don't think it's just about what do I want to do as the owner of the brand, it's what do consumers see us as and what do they also understand about our brand and product proposition. And I think sometimes, like I said, we're all about taste. We're a taste-driven brand. Function is second to us. In the case of almond milks, they just were too functional for us as a brand.

26:50Pippa Murray:It was one thread of why I think they failed. They never got the same level of stickiness that our nut buses had and where I think our snacking portfolio really leads on taste. It's not fully functional-led. So again, I think it's learning what your consumer wants and what they're expecting from you and then responding to that. as well as seeing a kind of category issue that you think is a problem that you can address through your brand. And another thing that we found as well was that what gave us the confidence is that we also had really high awareness for cereal bar shoppers. 56 % of cereal bar shoppers were aware of our brand anyway.

27:21Pippa Murray:So the 10 years of brand building we've done in Nut Butter also gave us the confidence to enter what was a very competitive category that everyone told us not to do because it was like a bloodbath. But we felt we had the strength of the brand to carry it through. Timing, I think, is really... Timing, exactly. very different category you mentioned before that nut butter is low frequency lower penetration snacking impulse very fast moving yeah has that been tricky for the team to navigate and how do you have separate teams for the butters and the snacks or is it the same people yeah no it's it is really different and to your point like it's also your competitor set are like some of the most the biggest fmcg brands so whereas that's not the case in nut butter one of the ways you obviously get traction and snacking is through the out of home channel which is not a capability that we necessarily had as a strong suit in Pippin that so that has been a massive learning curve about how do we navigate that landscape and also upskill our team or get talent in that understands that part of the mix and yeah you're splitting your marketing budget obviously you're growing but you're still splitting it across like multiple categories you now got multiple category buyers to deal with category data that you have to buy so that point around you might be getting bigger but you're cutting the pie over so many more areas.

28:36Pippa Murray:So I think it comes back to that, why that challenger brand still sticks with you because we still feel like we've still got to make, we sweat our cash really hard, that we've got to make things be more creative in order to get cut through. But as a team, we still very much operate with, we're not big enough yet to have, say, category owners or brand managers that solely look after snacking. But it's something that we're exploring whether that might be in the future a good model to work through. But at the moment, we make sure it's super clear from a strategic point of view, the priorities of the business and how we're going to get there.

29:04Pippa Murray:And then people will deliver threads of it. So we talked a little bit about the definition of success and how that shifted. What drives you now that's different from when you started? Yeah, I think, as I said, impact is the thing that motivates me most. The idea that the faster that we grow our brand from both a top line, but also from a profit point of view, it directly enables our foundation to grow faster as well and the impact that we have on people's lives with the foundation focuses on community meals and tackling sort of hunger and loneliness so that for me is like a massive motivator that actually I think of it a bit like a flywheel oak in the sense that the more good that we can do as a brand like the better we can deliver on our purpose the more motivated our team will be the more engaged our consumers will be the more engaged our buyers will be and probably then the more profit you'll make because you'll be more successful as a business and then that will enable you to do more good and it's like this cyclical cycle that I think is like the power and magic in a brand if you do it right so that for me is a massive motivator because I think the more impact that we can have in a positive way the better the world will be generally but it's yes exciting to get exciting growth but it's not just solely linked on that for me anymore that's what's going to get you from mile 18 to the end exactly Great.

30:27I'm going to ask you a few quickfire questions now. And I have to ask, because you said right back at the beginning that maybe you'll do this again, which if you were going to, what category would you enter?

30:39Pippa Murray:oh that is a tough ask I have had ideas around actually not in a product-based business but more in the world of hospitality which I'll keep stum on for now but I think I love categories that are overlooked that are like the dusty ones so I think if I was going to do this again from a product point of view I'd probably be walking the aisles and looking at anywhere that was like really boring. I wouldn't necessarily immediately go to what I always think are the glamorous parts, which are like the drinks and the snacking space. I really love brands that are disrupting those boring parts of store and making them and revitalizing them.

31:18Pippa Murray:So that'd be where I'd start. That's not a really specific answer, but you don't have to give away the secret either. You've got an idea. No, I'm the same. I think it's how many of those will be left. I know. And whether you have to just start back at the beginning and it will be snacking because Yeah. The ones busy in like herbs. Toasty. Exactly. Okay. So emerging brand we should be watching right now. All the aunties would be a brand that I'm watching at the moment. They're a paneer brand. And I just think they're really revitalizing a part of the supermarket that I think has not been touched before.

31:50Pippa Murray:And I love the fact that it's very taste driven. Feels really authentic from the founder story. So yeah, that's where I'm watching. It's delicious. Yeah. Dream brand collaboration. yeah Ben and Jerry's would probably be up there for me I'd love to do something with nut butter cups in Ben and Jerry's feels like a no-brainer or something peanut butter I love the brand for everything that I've spoken about today but yeah I think they're probably the best when it comes to impact driven business into practice so that would be dreamy wouldn't it best piece of advice you've ever received lots of advice I've been given but actually it's probably more one that I kind of a phrase that I like which is that you overestimate what you can deliver in a year but you underestimate what you can deliver in 10 and I think it's so true for brands you often are stretching faster than what you think you can achieve but when you do look back after 10 years you can make some serious ripple effects in the category and it's definitely been the case for Pippa now growth is not linear but yeah we've made massive shifts in how people consume more people consume a natural no palm oil nut butter now over 60 % of the category versus when I started, that was barely any.

32:57Pippa Murray:So consumer shifts can happen. It just won't be immediate, but they'll be big once you look back. Underrated skill in FMCG, patience. Oh yeah. Any entrepreneur is not normally the thing you lean on. One thing you'll never compromise on? Our logo, our brand tone, our voice and creative identity is the thing that we are super tight on as a brand. And I am absolutely fanatical about the detail. So yeah, that'd be the thing that we hold on to. If you weren't running Pippa Nut, you would be on the beach in Cornwall with my family, my daughter and my partner. And finally, a question we ask every guest.

33:34In your opinion, what makes a brand of tomorrow?

33:38Pippa Murray:A brand of tomorrow for me is a brand that cares. Ultimately, I think that the best businesses will only succeed in the future if they are thinking about sort of people, planet, profit in a way that is ingrained in their business. And it came from actually a man called Andrew Kossoy, who's the co-founder of B-Lab UK. He's passed away over the summer and his philosophy was about how do brands become more caring as opposed to carelessness, which you often see in capitalism and sort of the waste that comes through capitalism as a whole. So brands that care about their workers, their teams, their supply chains, the environment around them are the ones that will ultimately, I believe, exist in the future.