Persistence Beats Perfect- Emily Boyce brand building via distribution

0:14Hello and welcome to the Tomorrow Brands podcast where we explore what it takes to build a brand of tomorrow. I'm your host, Ruth Vitock, and this week I'm joined by Emily Boyce, founder of Sweet Time Foods, a specialist sales agency that helps challenger brands get on shelf and stay there. We talk about the stepping stone route to retail, what makes a great sales pitch, and why progress, not polish, moves brands forward. Let's get into it. Hi, Emily. Thanks for joining us today. So it'd be great to hear a bit more about your background and how you got to where you are now. Yeah, of course. So I started doing internships, actually, at the very beginning.

0:47I worked for a seed company and then a coffee startup. And off the back of that, I went to Root Health, which I absolutely loved. They had the most amazing team. It was just such a great opportunity to be a sponge. But off the back of that, I knew that sales was my thing. Or I just, for me, it felt like the perfect hybrid between the creativity of marketing and the being able to tick things off a list like an operations person. I just felt like the sales was a great middle ground. so after there I went to work for Kombucha Startup and it was the two founders and me and I was brought on to help them with getting as many listings as possible and it was great but it really showed me firsthand how many plates founders have to spin so they I would be juicing ginger in their factory and then I would be doing invoicing and then I would be running to meet someone to try and have a meeting with them and there was just so much that founders have to do and I think when consumers walk down a shelf, they don't have any insight at all into that.

1:46And I didn't. So after working there, I wanted to set up a sales agency, a sales team, whereby we give founders the opportunity to outsource to us. And we put our blinkers on and we just focus on getting listings. It just gives us that distinction so that we don't get dragged into those day to day things. And we're totally there to support, but it just gives us the opportunity to just focus on getting as many listings for the partners that we work with as possible. Amazing. We're talking about your business now, Sweet Time Foods. For anyone who doesn't know, do you want to give us a quick blurb as to who you are and what the business does?

2:23Yeah, of course. So we're six and a half years in and we focus on getting brands listed in premium retailers. So places like Whole Foods, Planet Organics, Selfridges, wholesalers who are really necessary to fulfill them, but they also fulfill like beautiful farm shops and garden centres and delis across the UK. We also get listings in quick service restaurants and all those next stepping stones. And we have a listing going live in Ocado soon. We've got a listing in Holmden Barrett, and we've just started exploring with the multinational supermarkets too. We very much focused on that specialty area to begin with, but we're just naturally adapting and growing from there.

3:02Lovely. So let's talk about distribution strategy, because obviously this is something you know a lot about and I'd love to hear Emily's sort of gold standard for any brands that are listening. If you were launching your own brand tomorrow, what would you do? I will assume that I don't have a product whereby I have to have huge scale from the outset because I know that can be a massive challenge for brands. So if they have a chilled product or their manufacturing partner has huge MOQs, they're forced to go down the multinational supermarket route from the outset because they have to have hundreds of stores being fulfilled from day one.

3:39So assuming I weren't doing that, and maybe I had a snack bar or something that gave me some time to build a brand, I would, I very much think of it as stepping stones. So I would start with those speciality wholesalers who fulfill those beautiful delis and farm shops. And they also fulfill places like Whole Foods and Planet Organic. So I would be chatting to the wholesaler and doing the other side of the coin of people like Whole Foods, Planet Organic, Selfridges as well. that sounds easier said than done but that would be where I started and hope to secure listings to begin with and then the next stepping stone would be those larger sites so whether or not it's places like quick service restaurants or big garden center chains it might be a cardo and then hopefully one day I would go down the multinational supermarket route but having had a really great foundation and a really great proof of concept for their first however long it may have been to take do those first few steps and that might take a few years I'm not pretending that all of that happens within a year a lot of the time it is slow and steady compounding so yeah hopefully within two years or so we'd have the first multinational supermarket Emily's snack brand will then be available in waitrose yes keep your eyes peeled so the kind of outlets that you've mentioned within that like an ideal first stepping stone might be somewhere like Whole Foods or Planet Organic and we call those beacon outlets and I feel like to your point about kind of sales that's where sales marketing really work hand in hand it's that sort of brand building via distribution talk to us about this channel a bit more about what it is for those who don't know and then why those sorts of accounts are so powerful and why brands should prioritize them because they're not huge volume drivers normally and you do have to invest.

5:26Exactly that. I always preface whenever I'm chatting to a brand and I say, oh, it could be great. And I go on to explain why. But I do then say, oh, but remember, Whole Foods only has six sites. I know that they're growing, but you're not going to get huge volumes for them. There might be some specific categories that do really well, but the majority is slower than some brands would expect. But it doesn't mean that they don't come with the most amazing value ever. They're looking for innovation. And so they're often the first who are giving those new brands and those brands who are bringing something different to the category a chance.

5:59And it's such a great opportunity for those challenger brands to prove that there's a market for what they've created. A lot of the time you can get data from those buyers. It gives you such amazing credibility from being associated with those brands that are nationally known and in some cases internationally known. If you mentioned Whole Foods, in many places across the world, they will recognise it. And being associated with that is unbelievable, both from an opportunity to get those next stepping stones, also investment and things like that. It can really support you with lots of different avenues of your business.

6:33The type of consumer shopping in those stores as well, you're getting those sort of consumers who are actively looking for new brands, willing to spend more, can be the sort of foodie influences in their own right and also I know in Whole Foods High Street Care you get a lot of trade people going in as well so I think in terms of like brand discoverability you can spot them too because they're in a gaggle and they move through the store like looking at things and not buying anything and also I think the last thing that's really important about them and what can be really valuable is unlike supermarkets where it will cost you an absolute fortune to do things like samplings you can go into these stores do samplings and you're getting direct feedback from your customers and maybe they're not picking it up but at least you have the opportunity to understand why it just gives you the opportunity to do that constant iteration and tweaking of your product to really refine it which can be really difficult if you've gone into hundreds of stores and you have no idea why it's not selling so you don't know what you should be changing I think that's a really good point and I also think it's such a important thing for early stage brands for the founders and the sort of senior people within the business and normally the senior people in business are the only people in the business at that stage potentially but to get out and do those samplings themselves because there's nothing beats hearing from consumers directly and if you get feedback if you use sampling stuff which you will obviously do as you scale but you might get told things secondhand but I for me I can still remember certain things consumers said to me when I was first out sampling a brand.

8:04Nothing beats it. Yeah, I agree. I just think the value from them is amazing. Yeah. Let's talk about the sort of brands that you work with. You have some great brands on your roster. You've worked with some great brands. A lot of them we would describe as challenger brands. What does that term mean to you? How would you define a challenger brand and why do they matter? I think it's someone that or a brand that in time will change how people perceive a category or they will bring something totally new that at some point was deemed really niche and then become something that we all didn't realize that we were living without and didn't know how we lived without it so I always think that biotiful is such a good example at some point kefir would have felt or seemed so strange and it was enjoyed by people who were maybe having it at home and now they've just totally taken over and obviously gone on to be really successful and And Kefir is now a staple in so many people's cupboards, fridges.

9:02And I just think that without challenger brands, there won't be that innovation or as much innovation because there's no incentive or no reason why those big conglomerates will create that because they won't take the risk. And I just think challenger brands have the opportunity to just chip away at them on shelf and add something exciting and new and different and just give consumers something to try and just give breadth to something that was otherwise quite stagnant. It's interesting as well, isn't it? Because Biteable has just been acquired by Muller. So that is the big brand then getting in on it.

9:33But there are also much bigger brands who then started doing Kefir. So they did really create the market there and shift it. And I just don't think that had there not been a challenger brand proving that there was demand for it, there wouldn't now be a category that has those big companies within it, which I know can be really disappointing for a brand that has been the one to churn for all of those years to build that category. But the more people that come in, the more established it becomes, the more people become aware of it. So competition can sometimes be a really great thing, although I know it can be really damaging and disheartening for a founder who's put so much time and effort into creating it.

10:11I think you're completely right. And it is such a mindset shift. And obviously, I think anybody human, your first response when you see a competitor do something similar or sometimes just outright copy you, it feels horrible. Yeah. But your point, a rising tide lifts all boats, they'll probably bring new consumers into the category, different kinds of consumers. And also, I've seen from experience that big brands don't often don't launch innovation particularly well. so just because it happens it doesn't mean that you know it's going to wipe you out agreed and also we shouldn't forget that they have massive marketing budgets that introduces more people to what your product is in the first place so yeah we'll take it we'll take it especially if you're doing something like kefir when there's a big education job to be done and if they're going to help do some of the heavy lifting on that then great how do you help these sorts of brands overcome the typical distribution barriers in these sorts of foodie accounts and then also more mainstream retail like you mentioned you're starting to move into so i think we have relationships with buyers but again that doesn't guarantee anything if the fit isn't right a buyer won't just take it because i've said hello and said i think that this product is great but i also think something that having an outsource team or a sales team who's who has their blinkers on and has the opportunity to is just that they can keep on it in a way that like it is a persistence game and I think sometimes founders can be disheartened that they haven't heard back or maybe they have other things that are more urgent that day and sales often seems to be the thing that slips to the bottom of the to-do list and yeah we just have nothing else to do other than try and reach out to buyers and have meetings and put our product those products in front of people so yeah I'd say that dedication and the contacts.

12:01And in terms of contacts, how important do you think that is? Because obviously, to your point, you know, your relationships will get you so far, but then they're not just going to do something because you asked them to nicely. And then secondly, buyers move around so much. And that is often one of the biggest problem for brands is you can get really far down the line with the buyer who likes you and really gets your brand and product and then suddenly they leave and you've got to start all the way back again at the beginning. yeah which can be really frustrating but it could also be a blessing because i it's and again i know some founders who find it so frustrating and it absolutely is that one person is deciding whether or not your brand makes it and if they don't get it or they don't think that there's an opportunity they can be your blocker and then suddenly you can get a new buyer and who's totally on board with it and totally gets it and gives you the opportunities yeah it can be really annoying if you're making good progress with them but the chopping and changing also means that hopefully you can get opportunities whereby before they maybe didn't get it so yeah you don't need not the positive spin yes i just think it's again it just comes back to that persistence and there are so many buyers we reach out to that we don't know and we're always getting those first listings at some point whether or not it's in a farm shop chain or pond and barrett for the first time and it's yeah it's just believing in what you're selling and thinking it's adding value to their category and presenting that in the way that you think that they'll want to receive it.

13:24Talking of pitching to buyers, what's the single most common misstep founders make? Oh gosh, I think, and again, I totally understand it, but I think founders have put so much time and effort into making every single little thing about their product as optimal as it can be. And they've thought about the sourcing, the packaging, the brand story, everything. And sometimes because they put all of that effort in, they present all of that to the buyer. And suddenly you have a massive email to the buyer that's like an essay. And I always remember a Whole Foods buyer that I used to get on with super well.

14:01But she said she got 200 emails a day. And it's so understandable that like unbelievable. I no wonder. I mean, they must be so overwhelmed. and when people say buyers are busy. And so know that if you're sending a massive email, they're just not going to read it. And I know that's really disheartening, but please make emails short. Please use bullet points. Please just really think about why a buyer would list you. And it's not going to be everything that you've put time and effort into. It might be just that you're a better price and you're in a format that's more accessible. And yes, it also tastes great and you also have a great founder story, but that's the bit that's just not as important.

14:39and it's just about prioritizing what you're sending to them in the hopes of them seeing it in the first place but it also being like I say digestible for what the buyer is looking for 200 emails a day I would be so stressed so you just because I've heard people say oh you're never too busy to reply to emails and to be honest that is where I err on that side as well but that that you can't reply to that's the other thing I think you've got to remember is if you're getting ghosted and again that's really feels really hard and it feels disheartening but there's a chance that they literally just haven't read it like it's not if you're thinking in the context like a needle in a haystack yeah totally and this is why i think that persistence game is so important and also i do encourage people to send a different thing because the buyer might have seen i don't know yes an introduction to your brand and it's about the ingredients but maybe they're not as bothered about that but the next time they might be really interested in the data that you shared or They're just like trickle different information to them.

15:38It might be some PR. Like I say, it might be some sales data you've had. It might be a testimonial you've received. But there might be just that something that they see and it just catches them for those few moments and gives you a break. But please don't just email buyers saying, please send you samples. They just, there's nothing of value in that email thread at all. No. And I think it's almost the same with marketing, isn't it? it's those like multiple different touch points before you convert and being present being active on LinkedIn which I know so many founders are really good at these days everyone gets the power of personal brand but that's all going to help going to trade and industry events and just being really visible and then one day one of those things but actually the reality is it's probably all of those things combined which is exactly how marketing works we always think of it as a web and just about creating like touch points around the buyer.

16:32I've even known some people who have done targeted ads just locally where they know that buyer lives. And I know that sounds really stalkery, but it's just showing that they're just trying to create that noise around the buyer. So they feel like they're missing out and they can't not talk to you. I have done that. Have you? And have done out of home campaigns. I think some of the out of home campaigns around some of the grocery head offices. It's like renowned now that you just buy everything in Welling Garden City.

17:07What's the most overlooked strength that founders bring into those early presentations? I think it's an understanding of what the buyer's looking for. So knowing that you have to have the right price and also actually beyond price, I think that they have to see a presentation from a buyer's perspective and understand that a buyer is there in order to maximize the value of their shelf space. So going in, understanding that in order for you to go on the shelf, someone needs to be delisted. There's not an infinite amount of shelf space and you have to be adding something that they're not, whether it's cash margin or a better rate of sale or whatever it may be.

17:44But putting those glasses on and seeing that is what a buyer is there for and that's what they're looking for will totally revolutionize how you pitch your brand. you will avoid any waffle about all the things that you think is exciting and you will just go to the nitty-gritty of with the right proposition we are going to add value to the category we're bringing more people into the category whatever it may be that's appropriate for your brand but just try and change your perspective to think that you're sat on the other side of the table any other top tips for pitching other than keeping it short no but yeah just coming back to the short and snappy nice let's talk a bit about brand growth and then what happens when you do actually get those listings what are the early signals that tell you that this product's going to work this brand is going to work a buyer replying quickly and then getting it quickly also suggests that a consumer will get it really quickly i don't think underestimate that there is that the buyer is a consumer at the end of the day.

18:48And if they understand the proposition from looking at your pack, then that gives an indication that a consumer will as well. And that's going to be really important and really viable. It doesn't mean that chasing doesn't come to something, but a fast reply usually is a really good sign that they're interested in hearing more. And hopefully that reflects in your rate of sale later. And how do you manage tension around margin expectations, especially for challenger brands who are under a lot of pressure to scale fast? I think it's about being transparent about what everyone needs. And sometimes that means that they can't manage that in the interim period.

19:21But there are other brands that perhaps have got investment already, and they're willing to squeeze down their margin in the interim period in the hopes of getting those accounts that are great for that next stepping stone. So they use them as a marketing opportunity and a brand positioning perspective and also to then get that next one where that margin will then come. So we see that brands tend to go down either route. They either need to be quite rigid about their margin because they haven't raised and they really need to protect that, which of course I totally understand. And the others who very much perceive it as a stepping stone for where they want to be in the future.

19:57What do you tell founders to prioritize or on the other hand, let go of? I think it's really important that again, coming back to those buyers being busy, once they nibble, once they want something or ask something, I am such a huge advocate for us not being the ones to slow it down, whether it's commercials or they're wanting samples or whatever it may be. and I think there are some founders that we have worked with before who they're perfectionists and I get that they put so much time into it but I don't want perfectionism to slow us down and slow the opportunity down and so I just want everyone to work towards very good rather than things being perfect just to keep that momentum going.

20:42Progress over perfection. Totally. We've talked a bit on the podcast before about zombie brands which is a brand who has been going for a while there's just so much hustle behind the scenes happening founders giving it everything but like the growth just isn't happening there's low traction but they're bumbling along what would be your advice to someone stuck in that zombie zone i think you need to pick people's brains and hope that they give you honest feedback because that can be really challenging about what might be slowing it down or what might be making them stuck in that rut but you have to then be receptive to that information because I have definitely given some feedback to brands and I it always goes one way or the other some are scribbling notes and tweaking stuff and saying yes you're right that should be bigger on the pack or the our price should be down like lower or whatever it may be.

21:38And the others who just get quite defensive, which again, I appreciate it because I put so much time in and sweated over creating this, but you have to be receptive to what people are giving you. And if that means that you need to do a really significant pivot, and that's what's going to keep your brand firstly alive, but then flourish, then so be it. And I know that pivot can be really difficult. Like we've done it. We did it earlier this year. we had a significant pivot about how we were working and it's extremely stressful. I totally underestimated that when I've suggested that brands pivot previously but it has also totally changed how we work, my headspace, everything and I do think that sometimes ripping that plaster off, making a change, going in a new direction can be really valuable.

22:22I think so too. The other thing I've seen is founders surround themselves with lots of different advisors from lots of different backgrounds and they're getting loads of advice and you can't pivot with every single piece of advice so firstly making sure you've got good people around you but also looking if you get told the same thing like five times from five different sources from someone in sales and someone in marketing and someone on your one of your investors then at that point that is if you get some feedback and you feel defensive about it and you don't like it take it to someone else get a second or third opinion on it if those second opinions go actually I agree that there are other ways that you can validate it too and I think it is difficult and that kind of is what separates really successful brands from the ones that aren't is knowing when to stick and when to twist and also getting the right advice but I think you're exactly right and a sign of a really good founder is someone who knows their strengths and then brings in other people to support them but then actually listens to them but also coming back to the samplings that I mentioned earlier in places like Whole Foods like create a really formulaic feedback form after whereby you email yourself or whatever and you put it into a spreadsheet you will definitely see trends and you're right it can be really difficult when you don't have those connections to know who to trust with that feedback but just trying to collate mass feedback from whoever it may be can just help you move in the right direction.

23:56Collate as much feedback as you can, scrape like a cardo reviews, stick it on a spreadsheet, put it into chat to APT and say what are the like three most common things that are coming up and you will get a really clear sense of direction at that point. I think it's that feedback is a gift. Having bad feedback is never pleasant, but doing the right thing with that is going to make a big difference in the long run, isn't it? Yeah, although I totally echo you with it being challenging to hear sometimes. Try not to take it personally. It's hard and it is hard if you're building something because it does feel personal.

24:34I think that's where it can be challenging, isn't it? We're all human. So let's talk a bit about distribution systems. If you could change one thing about how FMCG distribution systems are structured today, what would it be? So for me, it would be transparency and probably in two different ways. So the first is pricing. There are some wholesalers who don't share their trade price. And it just means that if you're trying to pull demand through that wholesaler, and then you create, again, it comes back to that momentum, but you can't pass over that information. You're hoping that someone from the wholesale team then gets involved and picks that up.

25:09And it just creates a little bit more complication. And then quite a few wholesalers don't share which customers are listing the brand's product. And so there's no opportunity for them to support those listings, whether it's POS or doing social media shout outs or making a stockist map on their website. They just send the stock to the wholesaler and then sit on their hands and hope that a store tags them on social media so we know that they list it and we can support them. And I just, I understand why the wholesalers don't want to share it. They obviously don't want those customers to be poached.

25:40But I think if we could work much more closely with them in that trust we're there so that we are all working on the same page and us selling more means they're selling more would be a total game changer. What does success look like for you, your clients, the whole ecosystem five years from now? I am just such a huge advocate for challenger brands. I love them. I love what we stand for. I love what we're doing and I also really love the community that is championing each other because at the end of the day we're all on the same side of trying to take shelf space from the brands that have been there for tens if not hundreds of years and I just hope that we continue to do that we continue to keep chipping away and we have a community that's in it together where we all have the same common goal basically love it so we're going to do a few quick fire questions now best early sign a buyer is interested a quick reply worst sales pitch cliche making it too long just saying too much and nothing at all favorite niche wellness brand that's not a client anatomy spelled a-n-a-t-o-m-e i've only recently discovered them but they're oils that you put on your wrist at night i have the restless mind one take from that what you will but it smells of chamomile it's delicious an old mantra for founder survival this comes from my mum and dad but when i'm overwhelmed they say salami slice it so when i'm getting really stressed and i'm looking at way too many things i have to do they just say just take one thing off at a time just salami slice that to-do list and it definitely helps one trend that's underrated but should be on everyone's radar I would say pre-pair which is a pre-alcohol drink and it's just 100 % Shingo cream pear juice this really these really special pears from Korea and it has properties in it that makes you break down alcohol and it yeah makes you feel much fresher the next day I am totally on board with it and think it's going to be a total game changer so for anyone who wants to balance drinking with my mindfulness and wellness I think it's the perfect product and finally a question we ask everyone in your opinion what makes a brand of tomorrow for me it's someone who has the full package it's someone who has the right tasting product with the right packaging with a price point that's reasonable and that doesn't mean it has to be competitive bold beans has shown us that you can charge a premium but there are consumers that are willing to pay it a team around the founders who have complementary skill sets so So you have someone who's amazing at operations and you have someone who's got a creative brain that's brilliant for marketing and you just have that web around you.

28:26So, yeah, I think more than ever, the full package is really important for brands to be able to succeed. Great answer. Thanks so much for coming on, Emily. Thank you for having me.

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