Great British Billion-Pound Businesses

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0:48Hello and welcome to the Business Leader Podcast with me, Graeme Ruddick, Sarah Bizarre, and I'm delighted to be joined by Robert Watts, who compiled the great British billion pound list for a business leader, which chronicled all the people in the UK who have built a business worth more than£1 billion and are still involved with the business. That list is sponsored by Deutsche Bank Wealth Management and later in the episode we'll hear from James Whittaker of Deutsche Bank about what he thinks it takes to build a billion pound business and some of the entrepreneurs and their qualities who are on the list.

1:20But first of all I want to hand over to you Sarah to tell us who is exactly on this list and how does the top 10 look? We've got 56 billion pound businesses on the list and this is a list of companies that are worth more than a billion pounds with the founders still involved. So there's 56 of those in the UK at the moment. The list is ever moving. We've had people come in and people go out and we'll be keeping it updated over the coming year. But at the moment on the list we've got Nikolai Storonsky from Revolut is at number one. Revolut is worth 35.6 billion at the moment. Jim Ratcliffe of Ineos at 29 billion.

1:54James Dyson from the Dyson Group at 16.8 billion. Machine and Zuba Issa of EG Group is on 13 billion. Christo Carman from Wise on 11.4 billion. Greg Jackson of Octopus Energy on 7.2 billion. Denise and John Coates of Betts 365 on 6 billion. Stephen Fitzpatrick of OVO on 5 billion. Tom Morris of Home Bargains also on 5 billion. and Richard Harpin from HomeServe on 4.1 billion. So that sort of rounds out the top 10. Rob, if I could come to you. Hello, welcome to the Business Leader Podcast. You obviously put in a lot of work to building this list. What were your takeaways when you were putting it together and what stood out about the businesses and people who were on it?

2:33You've got people who have built one billion pound businesses from selling beer, from selling hoodies and sports kit. You've got financial traders. you've got chemicals moguls it's an extremely diverse list you've got people who've you know are of all ages ben francis managed to build a one billion pound business before the age of 30 you've got bernard lewis um the river island guy who celebrates his 100th birthday next year you've got people who have come from very very humble backgrounds someone like john bloor who was a former plasterer in his youth. So it's a very, very diverse and surprising list in terms of where people have come from and how they've done it.

3:19In terms of the diversity, you've also got some businesses who have been around for years, slowly building up their revenues into something that makes them worth a billion pounds. You've also got businesses who have taken on lots of VC funding and built really quickly. So what do you see on the list from that point of view? So this is a real tension that I come across quite a bit, that there's this dilemma entrepreneurs have between, on the one hand, deeply proud of their business, want to keep close, want to keep control of the equity, feel much more about being master of their own destiny. And that's a big driver for some entrepreneurs.

3:50Why did they start their businesses? Because they wanted independence. They felt they could do, rather than work for someone, they felt they could do a better job and wanted to be master of their own or mistress of own destiny and do that. And then so to take on investment, which could get you that one billion valuation, you are ceding some control to that. But that may give you the springboard and the VC money that is selling the stake to other investors may give you the springboard to grow faster. And that is a really interesting dilemma, which people up and down this list have clearly battle with because you've got you know you've got people like denise coates and denise and john coates who built bed 365 together they have one external investor who owns about seven percent of the business and they were with them right at the start they haven't haven't taken any um dc money and so they are absolutely 100 in control but then you've got quite a few of the tech unicorns that are up and down the list where you know have managed to build a one billion pound business very quickly on that valuation because they sold shares that have made that.

4:58But in doing so, it's allowed them to grow fast, but maybe they've lost a bit of control. So that tension, that dilemma comes up a lot in the conversations I have with these people. Should I do it? Should I not? You guys will have thoughts about it as well, I'm sure. But I think it's a highly personal, highly personal decision in terms of what you're comfortable with. You obviously know some of the people on the list as well. You've met them and interviewed them. What sort of personality traits stand out, if any, between the people on the list? Do you know what? I do get asked that a lot with this kind of work.

5:29And I've often found it difficult when talking about wealth to actually pin it down. I've talked about sometimes about there's some people for whom there's a sort of geekish aspiration. There's one pocket of people who are sort of this geeks, obsessive, fascinated with a product and really, really want to keep going. So someone like Sir James Dyson is not motivated so much by putting more money in his bank account or sort of business per se. He's fascinated by artificial intelligence, robotics, trying to solve battery problem for electric vehicles, as he was at some point. So there's that drive keeping them going.

6:05there's some for whom that they're uh you know they're writing a wrong something something that happened in their childhood perhaps or early on their careers where they're incredibly motivated and incredibly driven and are continuing to to drive up but i think the and there are other aspects as well but i think if i was to sub it down to just two ideas it's people who are prepared to aim high and keep going. And often what this list shows us is, as I was talking about diversity, is that any sector of the economy, it seems, there'll be people listening to this podcast who are running businesses with perhaps a turnover of£50 ,000 ,000, so they would love to be able to get to£200 ,000,£300 ,000, but might think, can I turn this into a£10 million turnover business, a 50 million turnover business.

7:00They may not think it's possible. And yet look up and down this list and you can see people who just managed to do that from very, very unpromising circumstances. So it's this idea of aiming high, but wherever you are in the economy thinking, yeah, I can go big, I can go hard. And then to keep going, because I think that's a real challenge that a lot of entrepreneurs have, isn't it? That some just sell out, they do their 10 years, They do their 20 years, perhaps, of running a business, and then they go and do something else. Perhaps they sell up. These are people who are relentlessly keeping going, which is fascinating as to why they choose to do that.

7:40We need more of them. You are also the man behind the Sunday Times Rich List. How much does money motivate the people on this list? Not just as in personal wealth, but even hitting that one billion valuation. We call it the Rich List. The secret is that it's not about money. is that these people, generally speaking, and to get on the Sunday Times Rich List last year, you would have needed wealth of£350 million. Those people are not motivated, generally speaking, by money. They can be motivated by other things, sort of ego, and getting wrapped up in the business. But I think it's much more likely that they're motivated by fascination with product or service, a love of business.

8:23they you know they love you know they're often not living the dream living a dream sometimes implies that this this is a stress-free existence it isn't um without without a doubt but they're motivated by you know that fascination for the goods and service enjoy the love of the deal the fascination with that some of them i find they i've had honest conversations with them they said you know perhaps i've got partners who said you know it'd be great if you just Kem spent a bit more time with the grandchildren now or a bit more time with me on the beach. And they said, well, that would be me not being me, essentially.

8:59This is what I do. I'm all in. I want to keep going. Are there any on that list, are there any sort of particular people or businesses or stories that stand out? I think it's the unheralded heroes that really stand out to me. I mean, yes, you'll see household names on that list. going out to diversity again of this cast and why I think hopefully it's worth reading is that you'll see read about people who hopefully many of the readers just will never come across before so yes you'll see Dyson there and yes you'll see um Sir Jim Radcliffe but but who's heard of Tom Morris you know perhaps the most successful retailer in the land from a from a discount retailer point of view very very quiet very very hasn't done barely any in fact has never done a media interview very quiet very low profile phenomenally successful business that started as a um as a little market stall in liverpool and is now five billion pound company someone like tony langley again there'll be many people listening to this who'd never heard of tony langley that inspiring story he picked up the the dregs of of his families of his grandfather's coal mining machinery business how i'm promising you know could that be you know thinking about, you know, in the 70s, you know, as coal miling in this country was on its way out, providing machinery for that industry, no surprise that that business would be struggling.

10:23But he took the managed to buy, you know, the bits that the administrators didn't get hold of the bits the administrators couldn't sell, he picked that up and has created a£1 billion business from that. So it's those unpromising rags to riches, sort of how on earth did they do that stories that I find personally particularly particularly inspiring. I think I'd agree because I mean, when you first sent us the list, I was like surprised by how many of the people on the list I didn't know and how many enormous businesses there are out there that just don't get spoken about as much. I think actually shining a light on those is as interesting as hearing about Richard Branson and Will Shoe of De La Vrouille and things.

10:59Just thinking about the list as well, obviously the people on here are entrepreneurs. I mean, what do you think it shows about sort of the challenges of being an entrepreneur? What do you think there is that doesn't get said so much about sort of what it takes to be an entrepreneur like this? I think that attitude towards risk, I think, is really, really interesting. I think we have a difficult environment, obviously, in the UK, but some people say that other countries, and we might talk about that a lot later, I think, as well. I know your interest in talking about the US, and that's clearly very, very different.

11:29I think that sense of optimism, I think, is really striking with entrepreneurs. If you are an entrepreneur, be it big or small, you are essentially an optimistic person you think that you can create something that's going to make the world a better place effectively employ provide a livelihood for yourself and for your family but for many other people as well and you're you are optimistic that you're going to be able to produce goods and services that people are going to want to buy and yet often at times the culture in the UK doesn't necessarily feel supportive of entrepreneurs business people prepared to start their own business and that's that's a challenge I think there are other places that are much more positive about that and we you know we big up you know we big up sports our sports stars in this country big up our musicians quite well we're not so good at recognizing entrepreneurial talent in this country.

12:28And that's something that, well, I know Business Leader does very well, but I think there's a really strong appetite for that. We are famously spoken of as a nation of shopkeepers. We're actually a nation of small business owners as well. And up and down the land, there are people who will look at this list just as they do at the Sunday Times Rich List each year and think, you know, these people are my heroes i want to i want to be there one day and i don't think there's a mainstream recognition of that and say in the mainstream media and i think just change trying to shift that culture i think is a is the challenge why is that and why is it different in the us if you take let you take the top very top of the list nikolai stronski of revolute i don't think anyone outside the business world if you showed them a picture of nikolai stronski would have any idea who he is for comparison i think if you did a u.s version of this list i think mark zuckerberg would be top he has literally had films made about him and every person in america must know who mark zuckerberg is why is the culture so different it's deeply ingrained isn't it i think there's partly it's a slightly aspect into an attitude towards wealth and success in the uk i mean i I always, when asked about the Rich List, I think, you know, why is it pretty much the biggest selling edition of the Sunday Times each year?

13:50I think partly because we're all quite interested. We're all quite private about our own finances. We don't necessarily like talking about it, but we are quite fascinated in what's happening over the hedge. And I think that's part of it. I think part of it also is simply that actually our readership, even if we're not so public about it, and our politicians are not so keen to talk about it. Our public figures aren't keen to talk about it. I think a lot of our readers I know, both the Business Leader and the Sunday Times, do find these people inspiring and they want to talk about them. I think we are more uncomfortable in this country about talking about business success and wealth.

14:28Why? I think it goes back to perhaps a little bit of an English reserve, perhaps a slight cynicism perhaps, but it's unhealthy. These people up and down this list of these people we're talking about are heroes. These are people who are employing not dozens of people, a few hundred, they're often creating livelihoods for thousands of people. and without you know big businesses successful businesses you don't you don't build hospitals you don't build schools you don't provide the tax receipts that provide us with the public services that we want so it's it's difficult it's cultural it feels to me and and it's unhealthy do you find that a lot of the people on this list actively don't want to talk in the media about their story for fear of criticism because it is telling how the list in no way reflects the public profile of business leaders you know the public biggest leaders in the uk and entrepreneurs who we see most in the media are not really on this list to the people on this list i've had many of them made an active decision just not not really to talk publicly i think for some people i think there's a spectrum of different reasons why those who don't talk don't i think for some it is modesty and genuinely if you're at the top of the business yes you may have been the man or woman of the guts and gumption to set it up but you may be the type who acknowledges well look this is very much a team effort actually I've been very lucky you may qualify the success that you you've had some people are also deeply deeply private they're skeptical of engaging in media or social media in a way that will they they feel will put a target on their back i can think of one of the people on the list who very privately rang me not so long ago and asked to be removed from any lists that i work on because he fears his grandchildren would be subjected to bullying at school um if he did that now this this guy is someone who who came from an incredibly humble background is an inspiring story has you know it's the source of story that could you know help galvanize hundreds of people i'm sure to to consider starting their starting their own businesses but he's not comfortable because of this environment which is which is a bit of a shame i find women entrepreneurs perhaps a little bit harder to to get to talk perhaps they're um perhaps a bit more self-effacing sometimes and and modest as well but we do need people to talk really and tell and share their stories because you can't be what you can't see you know and I I have a 15 year old daughter I want her to do whatever she wants with her life um but I like for her to consider being an entrepreneur I think she potentially has has a lot of a lot of the base skills I think she could do she I think she could do well but it's difficult unless you you know you you're immersed in those stories of Charlotte Tilbury and Dame Mary Perkins and reading about other being inspired by other female entrepreneurs I think it's I think it's uh it's harder do you think the UK needs to do a bit more to help women in this I mean we've talked about there obviously are women on this list but I think Charlotte Tilbury is the only woman on this list who didn't found a business with either her partner or her her brother there are only five or six women I can't remember the exact number but there's only four or five women on on this list unfortunately we had Poppy Gustafson from Darktrace but she obviously left the business so last year there aren't very many do you think there's something obviously there's something broader that we need to do to sort of celebrate entrepreneurs but is there something that society the media the uk needs to do to sort of ensure that that women can get to a place where they're building billion pound businesses yes absolutely and there's been some good work done hasn't there on showing that perhaps uh women entrepreneurs find it harder to access finance they need to to grow businesses without a doubt i mean the talking publicly positive messages from you know leaders across society i think you know can only help and the work business leader is doing is great i think in terms of showcasing that but it's the this is a team effort it's got to be you know from from public figures it's very important to speak out yes do we need bankers vce to to look more favorably on on women entrepreneurs yes that's true but i do say it's really important for these entrepreneurs to get out there and tell their stories as well and be positive about it and for some it's genuine issues of privacy i can understand that but we all benefit from a stronger stronger business more healthier business environment and a healthier attitude towards entrepreneurialism and telling those stories helps break down those barriers.

19:06Rob that's fantastic thank you very much thank you for joining us on the Business Leader podcast and for putting together what is such an enlightening interesting and I think also inspiring list. Thanks very much great great to be here keep going with Business Leader I'm loving it it's a great great work. Our thanks to Rob Watts who compiled the great British billion pound list for business leader. And we're now going to chat with James Whittaker, who's the head of UK wealth management and the UK CEO of Deutsche Bank, who sponsored the list.

19:38My name is James Whittaker. I'm the CEO of Deutsche Bank's wealth management business in the UK. Delighted to sponsor the business leader billion pound business list for the second year. Working with entrepreneurs is at the very heart of what we do on a day-to-day basis and certainly how I've spent the last 20 years. What would you say is the sort of environment for entrepreneurs in the UK right now? I think we underestimate, in fact I think I said forward to the list, that we underestimate the amount of entrepreneurialism that happens in the UK. I think there's a huge amount out there and there's a lot that we should be very proud and excited by.

20:15I think at the moment it's a little bit challenged. I think that possibly we could do more to encourage entrepreneurs in the UK and support it so that those entrepreneurs want to stay in the UK they want to stay committed you know I focus most of my career you know most of looking at the ultra high and worth entrepreneurs so ones who have who have been successful some who made it onto onto the list some who haven't yet I worry about their kind of continued focus and you know how supported they feel in the UK at the moment. When you say we could do more who are you talking about who's the collective we do you think is it government thing is it sort of the media is it societally we don't you know raise entrepreneurs up enough what do you what do you think is the the we can do more yeah look I think that's uh I think it's all three um I think as a society our fear of failure is definitely there and I think you know we're very closely with my colleagues in the US and it's a very different mindset there there is like acceptance in fact always start encouragement of failure it's like to fail you learn from it you go again in the uk it feels so that's something that almost puts people off being entrepreneurs i think from a society perspective you know we can and from a media perspective hold up role models much more like i say there's been some fantastic examples of successful entrepreneurs and one or two make it into the kind of public consciousness uh you know the likes of richard branson people like that perhaps but but actually there's so much more depth there than perhaps we give credit for and it'd be great to see more role models hold up there because you know we all know the importance of having good role models doesn't matter if you're a you know a kid at school you know starting out business or already successful you're learning from role models you're inspired by them and also it just creates uh you know it creates a pathway it creates something that you think okay well that's achievable they did it so why can't i and i'm not quite sure we've got that the full wise you know the full potential that we're getting from you know one of the things i thought was interesting about the the list that we did was um actually the huge range of the like The types of business were the types of people that had got onto the list.

22:17Obviously, the list is people that have built companies with a billion pound valuation that are still in the business. So I think there's 56 people on the list. But apart from being slightly male heavy, it is a hugely varied list. You've got people who've got PhDs. You've got people who left school at 16. You've got people who've been running companies for 70 years in retail. You've got others who've just started tech startups and are worth billions of pounds despite actually generating no revenues because of the possibilities of the business. So I think that's kind of interesting, like the range of people that are doing this.

22:47And maybe when people think of entrepreneurs, I think they have a certain type of person in their mind. Maybe, you know, you get your Richard Brandt is talking about how they left school and scrapped around and then had lots of different ideas. But actually, there's so many different ways of being an entrepreneur. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's your remarkable in the list, looking at the age range that you see in terms of when people started their companies as well. perhaps we are now more in an environment where people do go and get a job and they learn in a certain industry and then move and and then they sort of get that experience and then go and you know see what the opportunity is and build build up their business i think the other thing as well is and perhaps you see a bit of it on the list is that the idea of having a business selling it retiring to the golf course doesn't seem to happen as much anymore you know especially in the tech ecosystem there's a lot more of kind of okay i've sold my business you know let's go and you know what do i do now what what where do i build this further how do i support other entrepreneurs um and that's great and i think you know back to that question around what we could do more you know getting that ecosystem going in other areas as well getting every you know more entrepreneurs of that mindset i think would have a sort of contagion contagious impact in terms of entrepreneurial success in the uk you have met probably more entrepreneurs than anyone in the i mean there There can't be many across this job and previous roles.

24:07So what are some of the standout skills and attributes? Because, I mean, you get to deal with these people behind closed doors as well. So it must be absolutely fascinating. What are some of the attributes that really stand out? I think, to your point, everyone's a bit different. And you do see a whole range of entrepreneurs. I think one common trait is they have taken risk. And I think a risk that for many of us would be unpalatable in terms of whether it's people who've worked in a, had a good career and decided to leave and set their own business up and walked away from that healthy salary or people who've, at the other extreme, mortgaged their houses to support their businesses.

24:44So there's always that risk-taking. And perhaps it's risk-taking, perhaps it's backing their own vision as well. I think it's people who've got a real, look, this is what I want to do. I believe in this. And sometimes it's because I think they're bright enough to have worked it all out. Some of the people we meet are incredibly intelligent and that they've worked out what will be successful or the way the ever-changing world is creating opportunity for them to go and be successful some people have just had a gut feel that this is the right thing to do or i've got an edge on this in one area um it has been very interesting seeing the whole spectrum across the different sectors then is there certain skills attributes or even sectors that sort of pop up more than more than others look i think the you know if we think about the really successful entrepreneurs they have had to navigate so much change whilst you know still building out towards their vision in an environment that has changed more than they could ever have imagined probably you know certainly if I look back at the the first few years of my career it seemed like fairly plain sailing and then you've had financial crashes you've had Brexit votes you've had you know pandemics changes of government both here and in other countries as we're seeing at the moment can have a real impact on their business so their ability you know and of course this changes depend on which sector you're talking about but you know the uk i guess you know from a has had lots of shopkeepers over the time so if we if you think about the the retail industry in the uk you know the changes that industry has gone through and the entrepreneurs who have managed to be successful sometimes down to you know the fact that they run brilliant leadership teams and And they've created teams that are passionate about what they do, sometimes because they've seen the changes and can therefore adapt to them before they're there.

26:28I think it's been fascinating to watch. And there's loads of examples on the list, whether it's Chris Dawson at the range. I think what he's been able to build there in that retail business in a range of different spectrum to most has been fascinating to watch and observe. What equips an entrepreneur to make those pivots? if you take retail, for example, and it's, as you say, it's changed dramatically. And it's a common trait throughout so many of these storeys is that they found one business and actually it ends up looking very different today compared to what it is. Is there a special sort of part of their skills that allows them to do that when others wouldn't?

27:08I think you see that a lot of the businesses change to us on the outside, but they're still solving the same problem on the inside. I think that's something that you see quite often. So we think the business has changed a huge amount, but actually that kind of purpose about what they're actually trying to achieve as the end goal has actually stayed the same. The environment is what's changed it. So I think you see that go through. I think for in terms of, you know, obviously from our perspective, we would say it's receiving good advice as well, whether that's from external advisors or also the teams that they're building around them.

27:38because I think that leadership is so important and that kind of building a good team, especially to get to a billion pounds valuation of a business. That is not going to be a few of you doing something, whether it's pre or post profit. That's got to be a really significant venture. You can't get there unless you've got A, a great vision, but B, great skills to manage a business or to know that you need to employ people who can do that really well. Why do you think it matters that the UK is building businesses worth a billion pounds? Why pull together a list that celebrates people? I think that we're back to the role model point in terms of what we as a society can do to improve entrepreneurism at all the levels.

28:19Actually creating a list that shows people, look, actually, this is what you can achieve. You can build businesses this size. My sense is that a lot of people exit their businesses or exit working before they get to this level. so actually how can we show them that this is possible it's not that you have to get to a business you know a really significant business to say 50 100 million and go well i don't want to risk it any further you know i want to keep building and and i think this list you know role models exactly those behaviors what do you think it says i mean you sort of touched on it a little bit there but what does it say about the people that want to sort of stay involved in those businesses sort of once they get to a billion pounds and beyond like what are the sort of traits that you can pull out from them or you know what is it that is what is it that sort of makes someone I guess want to stay involved once it's once it's got once you've had that level of achievement you know I think I might escape to a desert island somewhere but I've possibly been why I haven't built a business as worth a billion pounds but what is it about these people that makes them want to stay and sort of keep building it's because they're passionate and they're passionate about what they do you know okay I've mentioned a few times but that vision point is is important you know they've got a sense of purpose about what they're trying to do and therefore this is a continuation of of a journey it's it's like actually i don't want to i don't want to stop doing this for whatever reason i think the only time you see them you know obviously richard harper's on the list and you know the time you see them sort of step away from it is when they think actually this is the next leg of the journey for this business and i think you know show again showing people that you can go that bit further is really important That was one of the things that Ewan Blair said at the summit last week as well.

30:00You know, he's quite relatively early, I guess, in the journey of building multiverse. It's not a profitable business, but it is worth 1.4 billion, I think. He was like, his ambition is not to grow a business worth 100 million pounds. It's to grow something like he said, a generational company, something that changes how we think about skills and teach people things. And I think like Tom Bionic-Castore, when he was speaking, was a similar, you know, he's like, I want to be doing this. my idea is to like overtake nike and adidas i want to be doing this until i'm 65 and you know that sort of mindset is i think you know they see the ability to have an impact and actually when you do get to a large business you realize you can have more impact and so whether it's you know changing people's views on education like you're in studying or you know redefining the sports fashion you know that's an impact that you can have and your opportunity to to have more impact gets bigger the bigger your business gets and past that you done on you made the point about not in about making money be passion and and it's come up quite a few times already in the conversation so how how passionate are these billion pound entrepreneurs about what they're doing yeah look i think they have to they have to love what they're doing you know they have to bring an energy to the job and their role and a commitment that if you weren't passionate you couldn't bring you know we all we all work with people who've got high energy levels of motivation you know these guys are the extremes of that you know they are motivating you know hundreds thousands of people to work for their business for their purpose you know you're only going to be able to do that if you've got that energy level you've also touched on these businesses that potentially sell out early before carrying on like what would be like your message to those entrepreneurs is it is it effectively that you can do the same thing if you keep going it's there yeah you know i was taking the uh car store example you know they can look at adidas and people and say actually these businesses you know they're 70 years ahead of us but someone did it you know it's it's it's possible to keep going uh and i think setting these people up as the role models for the next generation is probably the wrong word but the next phase behind them say look you you can keep going you can build and and have bigger impact as you go through so important and i think that i think there's more that you know the uk can do to support that mindset as well i think if we talk about you know how do you get more of these billion pound businesses one is how do you get more entrepreneurs?

32:15The second is, how do you keep them as entrepreneurs building their businesses? And, you know, for me, that's an area at the moment where the clients we talk to, you know, I'm a bit concerned about the direction there. So it makes the role models on these lists so much more important. Just take those two points then. How do you get, how do you think you get more entrepreneurs? Yeah, yeah. More entrepreneurs? Well, I think, you know, I think we're back into the role model point. I think, you know, I was, looking um a study the other day that said you know if i think 40 percent of harvard alumni found businesses that's extraordinary that is an insane and that is actually on the harvard website as well so you know whereas a study at oxford that number is just about just a bit less than 10 percent so you're like well actually why why why is that happening why is you know presumably more people from oxford choosing to go and get graduate jobs and build a you know or or not found businesses later in life what is it about the mindset that's being created you know at u.s universities that's a bit different to ours sweeping generalization of u.s universities but i thought you know taking the top two was quite interesting so at that level what you know how can that be supported and encouraged and that fear of failure sort of removed i think is important and then in terms of keeping entrepreneurs engaged and working i think I saw a piece from BlackRock today, actually, which has the number of privately owned businesses, or certainly looking at the markets and regions of privately owned businesses, above$100 million of revenue.

33:51And the UK has got much more privately owned businesses than the US or the EU do. So I think that probably reflects that maybe there's a more attractive environment for private equity. yeah and we've certainly seen some of that but also that there are more entrepreneur-owned and family-owned businesses in the uk than in those other regions as a percentage obviously now yeah are they at the moment fully focused on growing their business or are they thinking actually what is my succession plan you know what's the right you know tax structure for this business do i want to stay in the uk that's something that right now is really front and center i think could distract from the journey of those entrepreneurs to then make it onto this list in the future.

34:34Do you still think the UK is a good place to start and build a business? What would you sort of recommend to someone who was thinking about taking the plunge? I think, yeah, I think the UK is a great place to be. Having spent my life here as well. And I think that there are huge amounts of opportunity to be an entrepreneur here. I think there is great people in the UK that you can work with. I think there is a growing ecosystem of support around being an entrepreneur and how to be successful as an entrepreneur. I don't think you have to learn purely on your own as you go forward. And I think that's really important.

35:08I think that it is a market that accepts disruption as well. It's not too set in its ways in terms of a society and a market. So I think that creates opportunity for entrepreneurs. And I think from a lot of the trends that we see at the moment, And from a tech perspective, for example, you know, the UK is towards the front end of those of that curve and that wave. And that does create opportunity for businesses to be sort of founded and to thrive behind that. How do entrepreneurs in the UK compared to globally? I mean, you've been looking up to work for organisations based around the world. Do UK entrepreneurs stand up to the best of the rest of the world?

35:51Definitely. I also run our Nordics wealth management business as well. And when I look at the entrepreneurs there and here, there's so many similarities, actually. It's actually been perhaps a surprise. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised by it. But when you look at international entrepreneurs, how many of those traits that you see from UK entrepreneurs also have gone through. What about how they're treated in their respective countries? We touched on this a little bit already, but do you think we just underestimate them in the UK? I mean, there's some parts in the US at times, these people are treated like rock stars.

36:22In the UK, it's far from the case at the moment. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think we can do more to hold these people up and recognise the incredible wealth they've generated for society, actually, rather than focusing probably too much on their own personal wealth. They've created hundreds, thousands of jobs. If we added up all the jobs that have been created through the 56 companies on this list, I'm sure it's hundreds of thousands. If we added up all the tax pounds that have been paid, over the years, again, it'll be hundreds of millions, I'm sure, if not billions. And that doesn't seem to go very far at the moment.

37:00What can the UK do to generate not more entrepreneurs, more businesses worth a billion pounds? So taking a promising business and helping it become bigger. I think if I think about our role as Deutsche Bank in the UK, we're the biggest corporate broker in the UK. So we're supporting listed businesses. I think before that we're supporting the entrepreneurs and even at an earlier stage we're supporting budding entrepreneurs as well. So I think there is a responsibility for corporates to support, for the financial markets to be open to these entrepreneurs to raise funds. It shouldn't necessarily, I know you're surrounded by venture firms here, but actually they shouldn't have to go to venture firms to get money.

37:44They shouldn't have to give away equity to build their businesses. so making sure that they are well supported from a financial perspective is something that actually I think probably the UK has a real opportunity because we've got such a strong financial services culture in the UK that perhaps you don't see in other locations as much. How much can London's role as a financial services centre around the world be a help to these businesses in the future? Well I think that the expertise and the ability to advise on the way they build their businesses is huge. obviously we've got excellent people at deutschbank but across the whole industry their ability to work with these entrepreneurs and share experience yeah and actually be a knowledge hub that you know and a share of best practice if you like and examples about what what can work and what can help the entrepreneurs get through to that next level is really important does the status of the city concern you is it it's obviously you've worked in the city for for a long time does it it does it does it concern you the path that it's on or do you think that's one that's completely overblown no i don't think that's a particular concern at the moment i think the you have seen almost all the international banks really commit to the uk and we've just moved into brand new headquarters um and we're certainly not the only ones who've done that which i think is a big statement and we we bought numis which is why we're the uk's biggest corporate broker two years ago you know again so banks are doing m &a in the uk as well so I think there's a real commitment to making the UK you know retaining the UK as a as a key corporate global centre and actually really growing businesses in the UK too.

39:19What's interesting about the list I find it really fascinating is that I guess 10-20 years ago you probably expected half of these loads of positions to have listed but actually I mean you take the top three they're not listed does does that matter do we should we want these companies to list on London or is it more about the fact they were set up here in the first place i think the fact they were set up here in the first place is important i think you know we want to see them list in the uk rather than in other markets if that was the right thing for them to do obviously but you know that that would be important but like you say they're not listed and i think the financial markets have changed a little bit there are you know those the blackrock numbers i mentioned the i think it was 90 over 90 percent of the 100 million businesses are private.

40:02You can hold a business private for much longer now. And that's the big change. You don't have to raise money by selling shares. And actually back to the point about keeping entrepreneurs involved, that should be a big positive for them. They can retain ownership. They don't have to spend their days doing lots of roadshows if they don't want to. They can keep building their businesses in that private environment. So I don't think that's a concern. Is that because the venture capital industry is growing so much or is there other reasons why that's not possible? Yeah, I think the venture capital, obviously, for the names on this list, obviously from a private equity perspective as well and from the ability to raise investment grade credit actually for a lot of these firms through the financial markets as well is there.

40:46They don't have to just do the equity raise that they might have had to do in the past. Speaking to some of the entrepreneurs, Simon Rohr has said this actually, that if they'd been in America, they could have been even bigger. the fact that this is only a market, I say only 60, 70 million people versus 300 million in the US. How much more of an achievement is it for the UK business to reach a billion pounds? And is it the case that they have to inevitably jump some of the hurdles earlier than a US business does because the destiny market is so much bigger? You would obviously, you know, the bigger the market, the more you can scale your business.

41:18But actually, I think what we see from a lot of entrepreneurs is that the size of the UK actually creates quite a nice balance for them. it's it's big enough that you can put scale in you know a lot of these examples are purely uk businesses right and they put real scale in but you've got to be really efficient to do that you're not you know it's not just going to happen and so if you find that right mix then your international expansion becomes much easier and of course you if you can expand into the us the ability to you know not have to worry about lots of different countries and their different rules and regulations obviously much easier so that market helps your expansion but you but you can prove your concept in the UK definitely.

41:54So I think it's a great breeding ground for those businesses before they go abroad. What's your outlook for entrepreneurs in the UK? Is it positive in the middle or pessimistic? I think the entrepreneurs themselves will continue to do really well in the UK. I do think it's at the very heart of the culture if you like but perhaps not society in the way it should be. If we can amend that it'll be even better. So we see brilliant entrepreneurs in the UK all the time and I think their businesses will continue to do really well. I think we need as a society to make sure that they feel that they are valued so that they stay in the uk and on db just want to talk a little bit about your priorities both for db broadly but also in particular for wealth management yeah so from a uk business the uk so we've been here 150 years we've really focused on and it's one of the key markets for us to build our uk wealth management business globally and partly because we see all the entrepreneurs in the uk but we focus on you really focus on three different areas so private equity professionals ultra net worth entrepreneurs and then family offices and as you can imagine there's a lot of overlap between ultra net worth entrepreneurs and family offices from when they sell their businesses and create their family offices around so those are the the three key areas and you know we're focused on supporting and and actually kind of helping clients problem solve and using the whole firm to do that so whether it's you know both sides of the balance sheet whether it's you know working with them corporately because if a lot of these entrepreneurs as we will talk with colleagues about you know the decision about what to do with their business isn't necessarily a corporate decision it's a wealth management decision but the if you go and talk to them about wealth management then they'll say 95 if not more of my assets are in my business so while we talk about you know the bit that's outside let's talk about their business so we i think we were really pleased with the way that we've been able to bring those conversations together for clients over the last couple of years, particularly with the numerous acquisition.

43:48And I think that puts us in a really strong place to be the bank of entrepreneurs. We've won that globally for the last three years, the Euro Money Bank, Best Bank for Entrepreneurs. And I think that's at the very heart of how we want to build out the UK approach.

44:04You've been listening to the Business Leader Podcast. I'm Graeme Ruddick. Our producer is Anushka Tate. Our thanks to James Whittaker of Deutsche Bank Wealth Management for this episode on Great British Billion Pound Businesses. If you enjoyed this episode, then please follow the Business Leader Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure that you get updates when new episodes go live.

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