Neil Mullarkey: How comedy skills can help you in business

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0:41We look forward to seeing you there. Let's have another line of dialogue, a very simple line of dialogue that might inspire our scene. One you've made up yourself. What was that with it? It got burnt. It got burnt. Very, very good indeed. It got burnt. You know why you're here, don't you? I know perfectly well why I'm here.

1:09I think you know why I'm here. Oh, I know why you're here. But do you really know why you're here? I have some suspicion of why I'm here. See this? No, because I've got my back... Right, well, let's change something. Oh, right, if you turn around, you can see it. Oh, right. I thought you'd bring that up. That clip is a performance from 2020 by the Comedy Store Players. They are a troupe of actors and comedians who perform every week at London's famous Comedy Store venue. They specialise in improvised comedy, or improv, where everything is made up on the spot, the opposite of most stand-up comedy, which is actually highly scripted.

1:52One of the people you heard there was Neil Malarkey, a legend of improvised comedy. He cut his teeth in comedy in the 1980s on London's pub circuit, much of it in a double act with Mike Myers of Austin Powers fame. For this latest edition of the Business Leader podcast with me, Dougal Shaw, I've come to an event at the Comedy Store to meet Neil Malarkey.

2:18The event I'm at has been organised by a company called Definition. Part of the work they do involves company training, organising activities to help teams bond and improve. And one of the ways they do this is through getting people to try their hand at improvisational comedy. So the purpose of this event was to explain the benefits of improv for business, despite the fact they seem to inhabit very different worlds. After the event was over, it was my chance to go backstage and have a chat with Neil Malarkey, who runs workshops for companies around improv and also helps senior leaders to improve their communication skills.

2:57In true improv style, you can see I haven't got any notes and this is going to be a bit unstructured, but I know quite a bit about you, so hopefully this will work. But tell me, first of all, we're backstage here at the Comedy Store in a dressing room. Do you find yourself here sweating some nights before your weekly performances? Never sweating because I've done it for many years. It'll be our 40th anniversary in October. 2025 and I'm with a gang of people we've done it before we don't know what the audience will suggest but this we have to gather half an hour before the show we do a couple of exercises and basically we just make each other smile and laugh and at our age talk about our ailments but I do perform here every Sunday with the comedy store players and have done for decades I also come here during the week sometimes to run workshops using improv and other theatre skills to help people with communication where possible.

3:49And how did you realise that the lessons that you'd learned in comedy could be used to help people in the worlds of business? Because there are quite distinct worlds in many people's heads. Well, two things. I teach a lot of improv comedy, which is about listening and working with uncertainty and with difference and collaborating. Huge parallels in business. today's event sponsored by definition was about comedy in the broader sense of stand-up comedy scripted comedy and of course you need to have scripts you need to be prepared you need to rework things like stand-ups do and in terms of training a trainer needs to be able to feel confident to win the audience to know that they've got some script and some that they might go off so there's actually many more parallels in comedy than you might have thought between training which is what we're talking about today and business in general.

4:41So if I've got it right, you will sometimes go in and train a group of people at a business, but you also sometimes do more bespoke training for, it could even just be one person, one CEO, is that right? Yeah, so I do group workshops, I do keynotes to hundreds of people, and I also do individual coaching. So it might be a C-suite person who's about to do a big speech at the conference, got to talk to investors. It might be somebody who's up to be a partner at a management consultancy so they've got to persuade people that they're gonna they've got a good business plan and they're partnerial which is an adjective kind of how do i have an executive presence so not just know stuff but be able to create rapport to roll with the punches to be seen as a leader as an ambassador and even have market eminence.

5:30So will people come to me? Will I be invited to talk? Will I be somebody on people's list of let's talk to her or him about this problem we have or what the future may be in this environment? Often in my job, I'm meeting CEOs and founders. And what I find is that sometimes, you know, I want them to come across well in a video, say, for example. But I do find that they are in a certain mode straight away where they imagine they're speaking to other stakeholders or shareholders in a very formal mode. And I've got to try and say, be a bit more human. Do you sometimes have to do something like that with them?

6:08Yes, a lot. Can you be conversational? And basically I say, tell some stories. So it's not scripted where you've written out some words with syntax and so forth. It's a story that creates an image in people's minds. you can tell the story because it happened to you so you're not having to get every word right you can speak with some level of empathy if you like and especially with video by the way if you've got to record them people will immediately become like a rabbit in headlights and so a good director which you'll have to be is kind of calm down it's okay smile giggle make them make them laugh tell them we'll probably have to ask you to do it again and when I've had to do that it's basically do it again in about half the time take your time smile and there are times when it's useful to say we need a three minute bit or a 30 second bit and the shorter it is probably the more prep they need to have done and they need to think about what's the point and so definition do help with writing for example and most help with writing is get to the point fewer what bits of waffle and when presenting as well fewer what we call disfluences um uh you know like basically things i have to edit out of the podcast all the time exactly and after 25 plus years of training presentation skills, I say to people, when you think an um is coming, don't say it.

7:45And that's hard to do that. It's much easier to go, if there's an um coming, just say, just breathe. Because you've wasted breath with that syllable. You've shown the audience you're not confident or untrustworthy. Take your time, as I'm doing now. You might cut some of the moments between some of my words, Dougal, but it'll be hard to do that. And I'm demonstrating that I don't know what I'm about to say, but I'm taking a breath every three to seven words. I'm saying some things that I've thought before, some that I'm putting together as I go, but it sounds like I know what I'm talking about because I've learned that trick.

8:26Listeners will have to trust me here, but speaking from the live moment, I haven't heard any ums or us. I'm not editing them out. They weren't there, but I'd never thought before that you can see an um coming. I thought it was like a kind of nervous tick but you think you can sort of get rid of them well it's it's a question of taking your time so going a bit slower so if i haven't much time with somebody or it's happening tomorrow i'll say pause breathe smile so did you hear that i took a breath and you'll hear that when you listen to podcasts which you will all the time or radio you'll hear people going and so i say breathe through your nose before you start saying something give yourself a moment to take a breath before you go into the next phrase.

9:09So an um is really something you can control. If you go slower, you can see it, feel it coming over the horizon. Take a breath and it gathers your thoughts for the next phrase or paragraph, you might say. So people forget that breathing is important. A, because it helps your voice and B, because it helps your thinking. What does your brain need? oxygen so when people get nervous this is what happens their voice doesn't it they forget to breathe and they have a glass of water and it's simple things like that that actors know comedians know i've got to say this sentence all on one breath because at the end will come the punch line so i can't go and end a punch line and fluff it so we do think about cadence and breathing is the main thing there i will use that on myself to be honest because i edit my own podcasts and i have to kind of i make myself more lucid by removing my own hesitations but um i'm going to try thinking about that as well you could you could go a bit slower yes i could there you go sounds like real gravitas doesn't it so i always say look at barack obama very slow but the sense is deep gravitas and all he's doing is taking a bit more time the trick is in the time you give yourself time to think of the next phrase and if you've taken enough breath you're helping both your breath and your voice because your voice will sound more authoritative if there's breath behind it and if there's thought behind it even better and also i can say of course you are looking at me all the time not everybody maintains eye contact but you're certainly doing that and i saw you on stage giving a presentation you had very good eye contact with the audience that's important too even in a podcast actually well i'm looking at you in case you get bored because you might at some point do a slight change of energy which is move on neil you're boring us i'm looking for that all the time also maybe i need the affirmation i'm able because i do look away for a moment every now and again when i'm thinking of my next thing perfectly natural if i'm looking way too much you'll think what's he thinking about what's going on in his mind and I'm also checking that you're with me another interesting thing you said that I hadn't thought about was when you see a stand-up comedian which of course is a bit different to improv but you think they're so lucid and but also kind of off the cuff but what you don't realize is that they've rehearsed all those lines they've practiced and they've really removed a lot of material to get it to that point.

11:57Does some of that apply to speaking in a business setting as well? Every presentation you give should be rehearsed. Now a stand-up knows their lines off by heart. They know where to breathe. They know where to hit. You won't have chance to rehearse it to that level. But the more you do presentations, the more you'll need minimal rehearsal but you need some rehearsal every politician that you've seen will have rehearsed they may not have seen the lines too far in advance they'll maybe have a teleprompter but they will have rehearsed and when a presentation needs to be done in front of 500 people that needs rehearsal if it's a conversation that shouldn't be rehearsed yes you can have a few in your back pocket but it's amazing to me how few people put as much thought and energy into their presentation to their stakeholders to their teams if they do it well that really buys a lot of employee engagement fran hazlitt was head of itv media i saw her speak once and she was absolutely brilliant all her slides were pictures they made us smile they made us intrigued and i thought her level of commitment having rehearsed this and her level of energy and connection with the audience would buy 18 months commitment I have seen chief executive of a big management consultancy hadn't rehearsed literally almost like a back of a fag packet speech and it would create the opposite which is they didn't bother thinking how they'd speak even for five minutes to 600 people Why should we care?

13:45A good question. I suppose the other thing that can happen is somebody has a speech that they've overprepared, but they're literally reading it out and they've maybe disguised it a bit with an autocue. And I always find it much more engaging when someone maybe has a few notes, but they're speaking from the heart, they know what they're talking about, but it's a bit more improvised. Is there space for that as well? Totally. When you say overprepared, I would say they've prepared wrongly. they're reading off an autocue you can tell when people are reading off an autocue cannot you it is quite a different thing when you're reading out your essay to the teacher one of my clients told me they were doing this for a pitch hello we would like to tell you about how excited we are about this project and the boss said no no it sounds like you're reading it which of course they were virtually reading off the screen above which is the camera complete lack of connection so he said i make it sound more unrehearsed why do you say i'm an er the very opposite so i would say to people never use teleprompt unless you are good at it i've encountered one chief executive and she's good at it because she's rehearsed it so much she barely needs it but it's there just in case it sounds like she's making it up but she's going most Most people, I would say, have bullet points.

14:59And a way to rehearse is not to be 100%, but 80 % make it conversational. And a great way is to record onto voice memo or voice recorder on your phone. That's what the person I just mentioned, she does. She records a pretty good version onto voice memo. Then as she's running, walking on the train, listens to it, which means you remember it kind of 80 % without having to memorize word for word. so I always suggest to people never have the whole script written out use bullet points and teleprompt is tough because have you ever seen people use autocue without really having practice because what happens is the autocue person is following you and you're following them and you get into a sort of vicious circle going far too far too far stop down and so I say don't ever use it unless you've practiced it when I have it I make the I sit down with the autocue person and she or he we put in big gaps when I think there's a paragraph off I write get them to rewrite it not as continuous script but like a poem Winston Churchill has his speeches written out but like a poem one line gap one line so that he could really go to the end of that sentence then start the next so bullet points for me don't write out the whole thing and unless that feels good as a preparation thing but then have bullet points on the day.

16:23One big change we've seen in recent, maybe I don't know, last two years, is a lot more business leaders flocking to LinkedIn, which has become more of a social network. And they almost have to be like content creators. And they have to decide, are they going to put across their authentic self? And how are they going to come across? Do leaders ask you about that? And do you have advice for them they will ask me about videos and i will say you should be doing videos that's what people consume nowadays tiktok instagram reels etc so why not put something on linkedin or l or the intranet or as a little video for whatsapp or whatever it's a great way of sending a message communicating who you are but you need to think about it and if you're not very good at it don't do it get good at it by doing things i've said slow down prepare what you're going to say be prepared to do another take and think about what you're trying to say are you trying to say i'm a nice chap come and work for me or are you saying we've got to watch out so think of the tone is it human you know right brain jolly creative or left brain we've got to get on with this these are the issues we need to deal with and you can see my turn of voice changes and I would say to anybody who's in middle management who's heading to senior management start practicing now watch yourself on video send a whatsapp to your team anything like that so it becomes part of what you do because it's like many of these things the more you do it the better you'll get at it but if you're a leader I think it's something you need to think about because people don't read emails they may watch a video but they'll turn off mentally after 7 to 15 seconds so what is it you're trying to say and what is your call to action are you saying don't worry we're going to be fine are you saying i need you to do xyz or are you saying there's a warning here whatever or very pleased well done on what we've achieved you can see the tone is important there's 32 of them 32 of them 32 nigel yeah whose idea was it to go on a route march naked i'm afraid that was my idea a few questions on improv which is obviously your speciality and you do it here every week there's something i suppose quite playful about it when you do that with teams in a business setting what's the goal there does it make them more creative perhaps because they're less fearful about mistakes and things definitely so improv people are scared of because i need a script and then you show them the joy of not knowing of really listening and being in the moment which is going to be really helpful when negotiating when working with team members when creating rapport as a leader bringing out the best in your team and yes playful means being open to new possibilities is being curious that's basically what it is so improv theater started with a social worker in Chicago in the 1920s helping children to be more confident to speak up in class it's now become associated with comedy because of whose line is anyway and other forms but at its basic it's creating theater in the moment and it can help be funny just as we heard today think at the call When I hear you say something 10 minutes later, I mention again that you like cheese or whatever.

19:56That's a nice one because it can be a smile without making a joke. Joke's tough to remember and could possibly offend somebody. So improv is, yeah, about being playful. When I teach at London Business School, I do a module part of next level leadership. And I call it leadership in the moment because a lot of leadership is in the moment, which is small conversations in the elevator at the end of a team's call it's also the improv mindset is let us be open to uncertainty we enter stage with no script no leader is going to have a script of the future so in terms of strategy consumer behavior geotechnology geopolitics things are changing all the time so you can't chastise yourself for not knowing the future because the world is changing all the time.

20:45How do I deal with uncertainty? How can I as leader, when I think I need to know all the answers to everything, step back and say, my job is impossible if I'm hoping that's what I should be doing. It's how do I create the confidence in my team to deal with a changing world? And improv, it totally gives you that because it says, what's just been said, what's happening? How can I use that rather than, damn, I need to shut anything down so I can get back to the script I'd prepared. Doesn't mean you don't prep, doesn't mean you don't have budgets, but within the guide rails of, say, a scripted world, you need to be nimble.

21:21And that's the challenge of leadership. How much do I stick to my plan? How much do I veer? And I'm glad I don't have to worry about that too much. This is perhaps a bit of a callback to earlier in the conversation, but in terms of this idea of CEOs seeing themselves a certain way and perhaps a bit elevated, would you ever do an improv session with a team and the CEO has to take part as well with the if you like underlings because improv is a great leveler or does that not tend to happen I insist on that having the senior person in the room if if the CEO briefs me and doesn't come himself or herself I know some things I miss I always make a senior person do something at the beginning to say the reason we're here and the reason Neil's here is because xyz so they're sponsoring it but it's very important and people will say oh they'll feel a bit uneasy with the senior person and I'll say okay well let's let's look at that because the best moment is when the senior person is candid enough to say I used to struggle with this I found this hard and I've learned.

22:28So they model vulnerability, not to make them weak, but vulnerability as Brene Brown is the root of creativity and real leadership. So if the CEO is too scary to many other people, something's amiss with the organisation. And I find sometimes the CEO is a prisoner of that themselves. They don't want to be scary, but there's a script written for them by others. so I often work with one level that's great and I often work with the highest and the newest if you like and that's wonderful because they'll see the younger inexperienced person doing really well in the things that I do and often because of what they've seen that person will again get give more responsibilities ask to do more presentations or whatever if you have a genuine moment where somebody senior is able to say, I'm finding this hard, that's powerful.

23:26Sometimes I do find a senior person tries to then give lectures in my workshops to show how clever they are. And again, I'm making my own decisions on why that is happening. You mentioned that you get called into these situations. So does that mean sometimes it's not just the annual away day where we do something a bit different could you be called in because it's acknowledged there is a problem in the kind of team culture and maybe you you're the person to fix it with an intervention yes and often I'm not called in by leadership or HR I'm called in by the business somebody's heard about my workshops or experienced it at another client and thinks that what I bring which is a day away from the office it's fun it's interactive but you do learn how to have better conversations and that can be really helpful and it's deemed to be unconventional because it's in a comedy club with an improv guy it's not somebody telling you how to do presentations or giving you powerpoints on crucial conversations so that will often be when we have to improve a skill in sales or storytelling or winning the hearts and minds internally or externally or sometimes two teams have come together and they need to have something where a they're realizing that the new team can't be one version or the other version but a new version b it's laughter with each other c it's going to a place of unease but with psychological safety and if we can do that that wasn't straightforward what else could we do so yes i do go to away days sometimes but very often it's this whole day they've come and we can create a sustainable model for how we can have better conversations.

25:17And just the last question, if there's one maybe simple lesson people can take from improv that might help them in business, because there are one, I know you've written a couple of books about this, there's lots of things to learn, but is there just one thing people can take away from this podcast? The root of improv is listening. What? Isn't it about being funny? No, it's listening what you say treat as an offer listen I call it intentive listening so as a leader are you listening really listening to your people are you listening to your suppliers are you listening to your customers are you listening to the people in your sector are you listening to people in other sectors who could be doing wonderful things that you could emulate real listening and being aware of the outside world not just your own thoughts

26:09you've been listening to me Dougal Shaw speaking to Neil Malarkey at the Comedy Store in London for the Business Leader podcast please do rate and subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts we do two episodes every week and for even more business inspiration thought-provoking ideas and networking opportunities then do visit our website businessleader.co.uk

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