Sir John Hegarty: Why brands still matter in the social media age

0:00This is Britain's growth moment. Do you want to be part of it? On 26th of March, 750 of the UK's most ambitious founders, CEOs and investors will gather in London to shape the future of mid-sized business. The company's driving our nation's success. The Business Leader Summit 2026 isn't just another conference. It's a day built around the three forces that define growth, ambition, policy and capital. And as one of our valued podcast listeners, you can be there in person. To secure a discounted ticket, visit the events section of our Business Leader website and use this code. BLpodcast, all one word, all uppercase.

0:41We look forward to seeing you there. You know, you can't have a business conversation today without somebody talking about AI. And I think of AI not as a tool, but something you should collaborate with. You're listening there to Sir John Hegarty. have come to his offices in Soho, central London, to get his thoughts on creativity in business, an issue that is more relevant now than ever, thanks to AI, artificial intelligence. It is going to democratise opportunity. AI is an incredible development. You've got to engage with it. But as I said, think of it not as a tool, but a collaborator, because it's going to make whatever you do better.

1:22But, and this is fundamentally important, the one thing it can't do is imagine. So it gets you to an interesting place and then you have to use your imagination to take it further. And that's where advantage lies, in the imagination.

1:43Welcome to the Business Leader Podcast. I'm Dougal Shaw and my guest today is Sir John Hegarty. He is one of the most revered figures in the UK advertising industry, whose career spans seven decades. Starting out in swinging 60s London, he went on to be a founding partner of Saatchi & Saatchi in the 1970s, and co-founder of Bartle Bogle Hegarty, BBH, in the 1980s. With BBH, he masterminded adverts that became part of the national conversation. These included the Levi's 501 adverts with model Nick Kamen, stripping in a laundrette to the tune of Marvin Gaye's I Heard It Through The Grapevine, and the Flat Eric ads for the same company, which made a star of a yellow hand puppet riding in a car.

2:25He also helped to create the famous Vorsprung-Durk-Technik campaigns for carmaker Audi. The phrase translates as getting ahead through technology. His creativity helped to make these brands world famous. These days he is creative director of the Garage Soho, which invests in start-ups and helps to build brands. He also runs the Business of Creativity, a course which teaches people how to unlock the power of creativity in their companies. I began by asking him why he bases himself in Soho.

2:57Well, I love Soho. It has been defined as the most creative square mile in the world. And I think that's possibly true. And there's a sort of energy to the place that you feel, whether that's real or perceived or whatever, I'm not sure. But there is a kind of culture here of kind of ingenuity, imagination, acceptance, forward thinking, constantly evolving. So, yeah, I love Soho. I mean, coming here, I can see that you've got the Groucho Club. You've got, let's call them sort of sexy style shops. It's quite a mix of things. You're mainly independent. Totally. And, you know, you've got Theatreland going up Shaftesbury Avenue.

3:37You've got, you know, the BBC literally technically just outside. but everything about it infects. You've got film companies here, you've got editors, you've got, and it's just, and you bump into people. You know, one of the great things about getting out and being in a place like Soho is you don't bump into people on Zoom. You know, I've felt that. And I love coming in here and just seeing people, different people who come here for all kinds of different reasons. You know, wonderful friend of mine who's a lawyer, but he works in the entertainment industry of course he's always in and out of um uh of soho and i bumped into him the other day and it was just fantastic do you think that if you were starting out now in advertising um it's such a different world you know the last 10 years especially has changed with digital revolution social media do you think um a young john would be going into advertising and still be thinking about oh the ultimate accolade might be a tv campaign or billboard campaign Or would you have a completely different mindset now?

4:41I think there's a phrase I constantly use, which is principles remain, but practices change. I think if I was the young John coming into or thinking about coming into the communications industry, I kind of call it that because I want to expand it beyond just advertising. I think what I would do is I would develop my own audience as an influencer. So I would begin to sort of, you know, show how I could think, what I could do, my points of view about things, stuff that was interesting me, my funny little drawings and begin to develop an audience. And with that knowledge and understanding, then perhaps come into the communications industry with that experience and knowledge behind me.

5:32I think the interesting thing today is the gatekeepers are being taken down. And I think that gives us tremendous opportunities. It also gives us huge problems, which we can obviously talk about. A wonderful quote, and it wasn't mine. I wish it was. And I can't find who say it. So I'm now going to claim it. And it's a wonderful one. It says, we're all artists, but some of us shouldn't exhibit. and I think that's the problem with you know the democracy of opportunity but I think you've got to come into the industry today with a kind of sense of what it is you want to do and work with people who are absolutely like-minded now you did do that before but there were gatekeepers everywhere stopping you doing what you wanted to do whereas today it's more open so I think that's how I would start.

6:26Do you mean that you would build an online social media following while being an employee on the side, or would you be an independent influencer? I do both. I do both. I wouldn't rule anything out. But I think that sort of audience that I developed gives me authority. So you're always looking, whatever in life you have, you seek authority. You know, one I've studied, I've got a PhD, I've been there, I've worked with them. It's all authority in some shape or form. But authority now can also be an audience you've developed. And it gives you experience of what they respond to, what they don't respond to.

7:03And it's a broad thing, how you can inspire them. So I think it's a really interesting time for anybody to come into any of the creative industries. I mean, you are an influencer because I follow you on LinkedIn, for example, and you do some very nice posts. What have you learned by doing that? But one that it's enjoyable. I actually like it stops and makes me think. The other thing I love about it, it insists that I stay connected. I mean, connected to the world at large, which I love. I mean, I always talk about, you know, creative people, the best creative people are those who kind of absorb everything that's going around them.

7:43Then it comes back out in some shape or form. That's what great creative people do, which is why curiosity is such an important part of a creative career. So I love the fact that it demands that I'm responding to what is going on out there, but in an, hopefully, I say hopefully, and in an intelligent and perceptive way. So that part of it is the thing I enjoy. And it makes me think, I haven't thought about that. That's a good question. Wait a minute. Maybe I should come back on that. So I love that sense of it. This relates a bit, I suppose, to what you're saying about gatekeeping, but things have completely changed.

8:21The monopolies have broken down that when you started your career, you know, only a select few people could publish, could make, could broadcast video. only a select well it was very expensive if you wanted to make video and now thanks to mobile phones and social media platforms anybody absolutely anybody can publish and most people with a little bit of uh you know self-training can also make the content can make videos so that completely that goes back to gatekeeping but that changes the opportunities doesn't it totally i mean i i think you know i always used to argue when i came into advertising that it was your you know, it's a democratic right.

9:01You know, we forget along with voting, the ability to advertise is a democratic right. In other words, my ability or my desire to have an idea and go and tell everybody about it. That's what advertising is. You're right to have an idea and go to the world and say, hey, I've made this. So for me, it's a fundamental freedom. However, However, I have to say that it was really for rich people because, well, I could send pub, you know, I could put leaflets through people's doors and things like that. I suppose you could argue that. But by and large, it was for people with a lot of money. That was the criticism back on it.

9:42And I think that would be a fair criticism. Today, however, with the development of social media and me talking about developing my own audience and is that you can genuinely do that. You can generally now go out and put your idea out there in a way which cost very, very, very little. And you can really start a business and drive kind of performance through social media. And I think that's one of the great developments and opportunities for businesses today. The principles remain. Practices change. The principles still require you to, you know, come up with something interesting, do something distinctive, stand out.

10:25look at what you're doing. Is it benefiting the world at large? Do we need this? Could we need this? So I think all those things remain the same, but the opportunity today is just fantastic. Another change is that if you think of your most celebrated work, it tended to be for big companies and brands like, for example, Audi or Levi's. And now on social media, it seems to be much more about the personality, the people, rather than maybe the brands, because people follow other people on social media. So is that a kind of shift of power that would affect you as a creative? That's a very good question, that.

11:05If you go back to the original creative revolution, which happened in New York in the mid-60s, early 60s, and an agency called Dordane Birnbeck drove it, a man called Bill Birnbeck, a real visionary, a man of huge humanity and creativity. But actually, if you looked at what they worked on, they were very local, small little companies. They weren't huge companies. They were, you know, a Jewish bread company in New York. I mean, Volkswagen, which was their big success, was this funny German import. You know, funny German car, you know, think about it, the Volkswagen in 1962 in New York, as the cars were getting bigger and bigger, this funny little German import that was the idea of Adolf Hitler going to a very Jewish town to go, hey, what about buying me?

12:01But they turned it into something phenomenal with that great thinking that they put into it, which is, you know, total being truthful, but funny and involving and all the things that they did. So in fact, they worked on very, very small brands. And what happened is the big companies began to say, my God, everybody's talking about those. Maybe we should do something. So I think the same thing can apply today. I think the danger is if you just make it about the personalities driving something, that becomes quite limiting. I mean, few people can do it. I mean, you know, if you look at the success of James Dyson.

12:39I mean, whatever you think of him, brilliant in many ways, but he came up with a kind of a better vacuum cleaner. Not that the world needed a better vacuum cleaner. I don't ever remember having a conversation with people saying, do you know, my vacuum cleaner just doesn't suck properly. Never. Once, not one dinner party I either went to or a French party said, do you know, John, what kind of vacuum cleaner have you got? But his genius in kind of developing a new way of thinking about a vacuum cleaner and the bagless technology and all of those things and the way it looked and felt created a whole market.

13:15But it was based on the product. He was the man behind it. Yeah. I think there is a danger in in basing your business on just the personalities. You know, personalities fall out. You know, it's a bit like a band, isn't it? I love the Beatles, but actually, I really love what they wrote. You know, I don't love them because of John Paul George Ringo. I love them because of, you know, Sergeant Pepper or whatever it might be. So remember, the product is key. The product is the hero. And as long as you do that, then the product will always keep going. If that is you keep innovating, will keep going.

13:55So be careful about making it around the personalities. It can have value. It can be good. I mean, Richard Branson, you know, has built this whole business on basically Richard Branson. but it can backfire. I mean, right now, you have to look at Elon Musk. You know, in many ways, brilliant. But is he damaging the sales of Tesla? I would suggest if I was an investor in his company that he possibly is. So be careful. Make the product the hero.

14:28You obviously do the Business of Creativity workshop. So you're working with a lot of British businesses to help them be more creative. What kind of blockers do you find that they have to overcome to be more creative? Well, the first thing, like anything in life, understanding it. Because the one thing you realise, nobody likes to look stupid, right? Now, for all kinds of completely stupid reasons, I own a vineyard, all right? Whatever you do, please, anybody out there, whatever you do, not start a vineyard because you're a farmer and farmers always get a raw deal. OK, but what I find whenever I go out with a group of friends that we're going out and somebody says, oh, are we going to have some wine?

15:12And everybody go, oh, yes. Suddenly I'm the one that's given the wine. It's all John, you know about wine. So because nobody wants to look stupid. You know, they've all and everybody they've ordered a wine. Everybody goes, why did you order that? You know, so in life, nobody wants to look stupid. The problem that we have, creativity is fundamentally important to our development. In fact, there is a book I'd like everybody to read, and it's called Your Brain on Art. Just come out. Wonderful review in Tate magazine. Essentially, it's written by a neuroscientist and some other thinkers. Basically, our brain is wired for creativity, but we don't understand it.

15:52So the first thing you have to do is understand it, define it. And if you can't define something just in the way you don't understand about wine, so you give me the wine list when you're out, you don't engage with it. Well, I don't understand it, therefore I'm not going to engage with it. So the first thing you've got to do is understand it, understand how it aids you, understand what is at the core of creativity, two types of creativity, what drives creativity, all of those things. It doesn't mean to say you want to be an artist. It's just you are creative. starting a business is a creative act.

16:31You have to have an idea, decide what you're going to make, what's it going to look like, what's it going to be called, what colour is it going to be, or how is the service going to be, or whatever. All of those things are creative acts. And the way you sustain that business is innovation. Are you teaching them to be creative in products, in the way they think about, I don't know, HR? Is it kind of everything? Well, you start with everything. If I said to you dentistry, you could define it. You could say, well, it's the care and looking after your teeth, you know. And you'd understand it. You'd understand when to use it, when to go, brush your teeth every day.

17:08You understand it, you know. If you don't understand creativity, you don't know how to nurture it within yourself, how to be aware of it, how to appreciate it. What is at the core of creativity? Now, if I say that to most people, they don't know. And these are crucial questions. crucial and they're hugely, hugely valuable to you. So if you've got that and your competitor hasn't, you've already got an advantage. And today, everything is about, in life, everything is about an advantage in some shape or form. I mean, I talk about power. You know, power is a sort of like a kind of word that's, oh, I'm not sure about that.

17:46But power is good if you use it for the good of your business and the developments of your ideas and things like that that are generally trying to make the world a better place. Power is important. You've got to be able to do it. You know, it's no good having ideas if you can't implement them. So creativity helps us do these things and understand it and actually lead a better life. Can you even help companies who are perhaps not in a traditionally creative space? Like, I don't know, someone who makes manufacturing parts for the plumbing industry. Do you help those kind of people be creative? Of course.

18:18Every business is, in a sense, a creative act. Every business. Now, I know this is going to sound weird to people. I go back to my point. You know, what are you making? What does it look like? What does it feel like? How do you talk to people? Who do you talk to? Where do you talk to people? And what way do you talk? All of these things come from your creativity. So the more you understand it, the better you'll be at it. And there is no business that cannot benefit from it. I mean, it was interesting. I had somebody in here from the health industry talking about how to use creativity to get people to understand how you care more.

19:01And you wouldn't normally think of that, but they're saying we are thinking about that and how important it is for an industry. It's about caring for people. And so you think it's not just about medicine. It's about how do you care for people. So it cuts across everything. We are creative. That's what separates us from the animal kingdom. You know, I constantly say, you know, a dog does not get up in the morning and think about how they can change the world. We kind of get up in the morning and think, how can you change your business? How you can make it more successful? How you can have a better relationship with your partner, your wife, your family, your friends, you know, we do those things.

19:39Those are all part of your creativity. And apart from just defining it in the first place, obviously, people should do your workshop to find out everything. But can you give one insight into something they can do some active step to start being more creative? Well, the first thing is, you know, people say to me, So what in a way drives your creativity? What is it on a daily basis? And what inspires me is beauty. And I love looking at things. And when I say beauty, I mean, it can be anything. It can be the way somebody uses a phrase. It can be the way the light is in the morning. You know, how many people get up and say, oh, what a beautiful morning we have.

20:27Well, stop and really appreciate that. Appreciate, you know, a beautiful piece of design, the way somebody serves you a cup of coffee, the way it is. Look at the beauty in life, because that's what creativity is often trying to get you to do. Look at the great things in life. So that's one thing I could say to people. And when I say beauty, I mean in everything, how a meal is served you. You know, look at the number of cooking programs there are and people preparing food. beauty. That's about not only the quality of the food, but the beauty of it. And just be aware of that. And then suddenly you'll begin to think about things that then touch people because people are touched by beauty.

21:06They're touched by it. We talk about, you know, love is about beauty and being attracted to something. And it's how you get attracted to things and how life becomes more attractive when you're inspired by beauty in all its shape and form staying with creativity but going back a bit again to this idea of how the digital landscape has changed and created all these new possibilities the thing that we're obviously very interested in at the moment is AI and myself in a limited way as a working as a creative journalist I'm using AI to generate images which I couldn't have imagined before it would have been very expensive I don't know working with a kind of motion gallery or an illustrator, but I can start to do these things.

21:50Do you see AI as another great democratiser of creativity, potentially? It certainly is. I mean, I think it's going to be, I think actually it's going to be quite profound in the way that, in a sense, digital technology has not been. You know, if you think about it, over the last 20 years, we've had digital technology. Where's the economic growth? I mean, I was always told this is going to be revolutionary, it's going to change everything. And yes, it has. But where's the economic growth? And we're looking at very anemic growth figures. So you kind of go, well, why is that? You know, and I'm not an economist.

22:25I'm not going to go into that in depth. But I do feel that AI is going to be profound. I mean, the first thing to say about it is it democratizes opportunity. So you as a medium sized business, whatever size business you are, you are now, you now have the same advantage as a major corporation. In fact, I could argue you're in a better place because you can utilize it instantly and implement it instantly in a way that maybe a large organization would be slower doing it. So there is an advantage for you there. So please engage with it. My other point about it is don't think of it as a tool. Think of it as a collaborator.

23:09You collaborate with it. You know, think of it in those terms. It's there to help you get your creativity to a better place. And then remember, it can't imagine. It gathers what's out there and assembles it and says, you could do this, which is OK. Then you can use it to go that step further. And that's what you've got to remember. So think about it as a collaborator. Now, the other thing, be wary, it shovels up all the shit as well. So, you know, it hallucinates. Yes, it doesn't. It doesn't have a kind of, you know, oh, I've got experience of that. No, that's not a good idea. You know, maybe the Nazi salute isn't a great thing to do or whatever.

23:52You know, so it doesn't know that it doesn't have awareness. It has knowledge, but not awareness and knowledge of everything that's gone on and it can reassemble it. So it is an incredible tool. Think about it as a collaborator more than a tool. I've just said a tool. I don't mean that, but think about it as a collaborator. And in a sense, we've always got to be slightly wary of the kind of copyright issues that are going to be coming down the track. They are going to be coming. I guarantee you it's going to happen. So we have to be. Cognizant of that, we have to be aware of that. but I do think it is going to be I generally think it's going to be transformative especially for small and medium sized companies Yeah you wonder how it would work because would it ever come up with the idea of a flat Eric puppet or of a model getting changed into his briefs in a laundrette can it do those bits or maybe it just helps you conceive the storyboard for it I don't know Yes what it can't do and I keep saying this it can't imagine you know part of creativity is looking at everything that's been out there and then, you know, representing it in a new and different way.

25:05That is a part of creativity. But creativity goes deeper than that. And it uses your imagination. And that's where the power is in your imagination to imagine something better. You know, I go back to my James Dyson point. There are absolutely no data anywhere on people wanting a better vacuum cleaner. None at all. Absolutely none. But he, in his mind, said, yes, I think there could be. So he imagined another way of doing it. And that's what makes it great. So, you know, it can be really, really valuable to you, this thing called AI. It can help you in lots of different ways to beat the competition, but it can't imagine.

25:50But you can do that. That's the power that the human brain has.

25:56you know for the last 10 years here at the garage we've been investing in businesses helping them get up off the ground finding finance for them and then getting them to understand that value will reside in the brand all right because whatever idea you have whatever you make whatever piece of technology you've got somebody else will come along and copy you and that's the nature of competition. That's what happens. What they can't do is copy the brand. And that's where value resides. So my greatest regret, even though I've really loved the last 10 years and worked with some wonderful people, is the lack of understanding in businesses, the value of a brand, how it protects you, how it allows you to survive, how it creates value, even if somebody never buys it.

26:49And this is one of the greatest mistakes today. And the danger of digital technology and social media is you're constantly talking to people who agree with you. Now, you have to conquer. Great brands go out and conquer. So you have to talk to people beyond your immediate audience, even if they're never going to buy your product. All right. and it's called the power of fame and they just so many new business startups today don't understand that they've been sucked into the kind of digital world of i just need to talk to the people who are going to buy my product how do you know who's going to buy your product how do you know how people are going to influence people who buy your product there's a great line and i would love everybody to remember this a brand is made not just by the people who buy it but also by the people who know about it example i don't know about you i am never ever going to buy a rolls royce yet i know about them i know they're the most luxurious car in the world and that's their reputation that reputation adds to their value even though i'm never going to buy it now whatever you're making whatever you're doing how many people know about you that can talk about you that has a that can talk about your reputation think about that word instead of brand sometimes reputation and digital media won't give you that you have to go out and talk to the masses in some shape or form work it out and that's i think today would be my criticism of so many young businesses.

28:35They don't understand that point. And I always, when we get people in here, we do it on a round table. And I would always like to get, my special power is, by the way, I'm going to go back and be able to correct things and say the funny comment I should have said, that's going to be my special power. I wish if I could go back, I should have had a can of Coke and a can of Pepsi in the middle of this round table. And at the end of this presentation from this business idea i should have actually stopped them and said before you go and thank you it's really good we'll consider shall we invest by the way these two cans on the on the can if i could give you five percent of either one of these companies which one would you take coke or pepsi now before you answer that question in blind tests pepsi tastes better than coke now which one would you take five percent of the answer is undoubtedly coke why was it built a brand now if you don't understand that the doors downstairs don't come back in it's what i should have said but i didn't but thinking about it with your work at the garage you see a lot of companies who i guess are kind of successful startups they've maybe gone beyond that stage even you've got a nice perspective on this what do you think would help british companies to grow more large companies I think imagination.

29:53I think too many companies are left brained, not enough of right brained. They don't imagine. They're not showmen. Great companies are showmen. You know, go back, you know, go back to the kind of Wedgwood. Cadbury family. They had a, they were in their own way. They were Quakers and all of that. And they were showmen. They went out and they said, this is what we believe in. And they wanted to conquer the world. They wanted to change the way people are. Too many people in businesses are left brained. Not enough right brain thinkers. And we love showman. I mean, you know, look at the success today.

30:29Steve Jobs, showman. You know, Elon Musk. But do you like him or not? Showman. You know, get out there and make people believe in you. We don't have enough right brain thinkers. And that goes back to creativity. Of course, the right brain is creativity. The left brain is logic. You need both. But we're dominated by left brain thinkers who kind of want to be certain about the future. There is there are no facts on the future. Let me tell you, whatever it tells you about data and all those things, there are no facts on the future. But you can influence the future with a great idea. Just thinking in practical terms, in terms of digital, you were saying before that, you know, there's a danger you just preach to the converted to your own followers.

31:17But I mean, on a platform like LinkedIn, for example, you could decide to pay LinkedIn to then reach people who are not your followers. So is that one way to expand the conversation and get some fame? It is. But I think you've got to go beyond that digital world. I mean, everything is digital today, but you've got to think about mass communication in some shape or form. however you want to do it, you know, however you define it, in what way you want to do it. How do you command a greater audience? How do you get... Look, all communication is trying to drive people to word of mouth. Every advertising campaign in the world ever is driving people to word of mouth because word of mouth is the most powerful form of advertising.

32:02Google, this is absolutely great. I really think you should look at it. is the greatest advertising you can never have. So all communication is trying to do that in some way or another. And the more people you get doing it, the more influence you're going to have. So a powerful thought communicates it to a very broad audience, even though they're not immediately in the marketplace, whatever. Getting people talking about you is crucial. That's what you want.

32:31You've been listening to me, Dougal Shaw, speaking to Sir John Hegarty for the Business Leader Podcast. Please do rate and subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. We do two episodes every week.

32:49The Business Leader Summit 2026 is set to be bigger, bolder and more ambitious than ever. Don't just watch Britain's growth story unfold, be part of it. Secure your ticket today by visiting the events section of the Business Leader website and using the code BLPODCAST, all uppercase. It's your chance to join the leaders who are shaping the future of business.