The FTSE 100 director who quit and built a new FTSE 100 company

0:00This is Britain's growth moment. Do you want to be part of it? On 26th of March, 750 of the UK's most ambitious founders, CEOs and investors will gather in London to shape the future of mid-sized business. The company's driving our nation's success. The Business Leader Summit 2026 isn't just another conference. It's a day built around the three forces that define growth, ambition, policy and capital. And as one of our valued podcast listeners, you can be there in person. To secure a discounted ticket, visit the events section of our business leader website and use this code. BL podcast, all one word, all uppercase.

0:41We look forward to seeing you there. Lehman Brothers staff arrived at work in London this morning to be told the bank had been put into administration. Some waited around to find out what that meant. Others decided there was no point. This means the company ceases to exist. And I guess that's all I can say. It is disastrous, but I think people are experienced enough and professional enough to take it on the chin. I think everyone's trying to stay positive. Keep a stiff upper lip. In New York, they'd seen this coming. The clear out began several hours before the bank officially filed for bankruptcy.

1:15Up to 25 ,000 people now look set to lose their jobs. That's a Sky News report from September 2008, on the day that Lehman Brothers collapsed. The global financial crisis that followed this day sparked a reshaping of entire industries as we know. Old businesses collapsed and new ones emerged. For those building a business at this time, unexpected opportunities emerged. For example, we've heard in previous episodes of Business Leader how Simon Aurora and his brothers built discount retailer B &M by picking up old Woolworths shops after the High Street retailer collapsed in the aftermath of Lehman Brothers' demise.

1:55But for those working in big companies at the time, a different question emerged. What if you could see the opportunities ahead, but your company wasn't in a position to take advantage? This is the story of the man who quit his job as a FTSE 100 director and built a new FTSE 100 company.

2:23I'm Graeme Ruddick, and this is the Business Leader Podcast, where we look at the real stories behind why businesses succeed and fail. In this episode, we speak to Andrew Jones about how he built London Metric into a FTSE 100 company. In the aftermath of the financial crisis, Andrew Jones was head of retail at British Land and on the board of the FTSE 100 company. Britishland had been built into one of the UK's biggest property companies by former boss Sir John Ripplatt. It owned the Meadowhall Shopping Centre in Sheffield and the Broadgate Office Complex in London, as well as many other assets.

2:59Shortly after the demise of Lehman Brothers, Britishland's chief executive Stephen Hester left to take on the challenge of rebuilding Royal Bank of Scotland. Meanwhile, Andrew Jones sensed there were big opportunities ahead.

3:18So 2009, you know, it was a pretty tough time in the real estate market. I remember coming into the office in January and we were in the process of selling a stake in Meadowhall. And we were doing that alongside a rights issue beginning of 2009. Both initiatives were successfully executed. and then we got to the easter of 09 and there was just a just a small hint that maybe that the clouds were beginning to to clear a little bit and then i think of the summer of 09 actually nick leslow who you know is now one of our non-execs announced that he was going to float a company called max properties which they successfully did i think in the summer of june or july of 09 which i thought again was another signal that maybe the worst is behind us and this is a period of opportunity and so I spent the summer thinking about what I should do um came to a conclusion that you know this was a moment in time that if you didn't seize it I might regret it you know I had a great job at British and I enjoyed working with the people and a great team that we'd built and you know you might decide the decision to leave British had nothing to do with British it was more to do with the opportunity that I saw elsewhere in the wider real estate market and i think i made the decision i mean i would have spoken actually you know to stephan dido i think in the september i think and i think i resigned in the october and obviously i'm in the garden for a bit and you know a lot of things going around your head markets moving quickly somebody else announced an ipo in the interim which was unhelpful because there's only you know for ibo's there's so much money that is available and therefore the more people that come in ahead of you the less there's left for you and then i think we issued our itf between the end of february beginning of march of 2010 and we ipo'd on the 24th of march 2010 i think it's just for my son's birthday it's like think i'm right and we raised 220 million and we actually scaled people back a little bit because we and then we took 190 million of equity see what i think is fascinating about this story is that you you are you were a footsie 100 director and you quit and you built another foot 200 company was like their point where you anyone's said to maybe think of jeff bezos's story where he quit his job at the investment bank to set up amazon and his boss said to him at the time that's a great idea jeff but why doesn't somebody else who hasn't got a great job do it was there like who did you seek advice from and were there people who said to you are like are you mad what are you doing yeah i mean i i actually sort of advice actually from from four four people Stephen Hester who had left British he'd been my boss for a while and was a great person to work with and incredibly smart he was running RBS so I asked him for his advice and you know fortunately he was positive Patrick Vaughan who was my chief exec when I was at Pillar and the time was running London and Sanford that had floated back in 2007 as a cash shell.

6:32I actually spoke to Sir John Ripplat. I thought it was a great idea. And then the fourth, and the only person who said, you're a Madge, you've got a great job. You sit on the board of a FTSE 100, you get well paid. You've got three children. There's my father. He said, don't do it. But he did it, obviously, for the best of intentions. You obviously started out, as you've touched on there, by then going out and raising money. What's that process like? because you're raising money on the back of your reputation and an ideas just for people get a sense about what that is what that involves well it's partly linked to to that actually if you hadn't got to the position you've got to you know you're sitting you know at a sitting on a the board of a big company deemed to have had a you know relatively successful career then actually raising money is impossible so you actually have to get to that position to have a chance um that actually doesn't mean that everybody who gets that position can do it but i'd always had a very strong interest in in the equity market the stock market you know i bought my first share i think when i was 13 and all of the books i read that were in school related were all about business leaders you know it was you know there was some you know james goldsmith james hansen kkr takeover of nabisco things like that so i understood that world relatively well and and maybe gave me an ability to articulate what we were about and what we were trying to achieve.

8:00We were also at a period of time, don't forget when we were coming out of the global financial crisis and people are looking for the, you know, they're looking for the bounce back. And a lot of the existing companies were holding legacy assets that maybe they hadn't written down to the right number and this was a clean vehicle we'd structured it as an internal management business most of the predecessor ipos including max and a company called lxb had external management structures so we were clean we were putting in a lot of our own money not so much in terms of necessary quantum and there's still a lot of money but you know relative to your net worth it was all going in you know outside of your house which was sharing strong alignment of interest and investors you know took comfort from the fact that you know the timing was good the structure was aligned and you had a track record that you know that you knew what you're doing i think i think it was peter bill who wrote an article that you know said the guys will know where the bodies are buried that's in the states because yeah you know and and we felt that and interestingly 2010 was you know we did a successful equity raise we deployed a bit of money 11 and 12 were it would have been difficult to raise money in 11 and 12.

9:20Really difficult. How did you find going from a FTSE 100 company to what was effectively a startup? I found that pretty, I mean, apart from not knowing how to sign a photocopy of contract, no, I was fine about it. I mean, it isn't, you know, for us, it was about having great people. I remember having a blind date with John Whittaker a year or so later. He was asking me about, you know, what is your strategy? what is your objectives and i said we just want to create a business that you know people respect as being you know smart and honest and true um and well respected within the industry and john said to me well what about you know being the biggest i said john we would never we never set out to do that size for us would be an outcome of a successful strategy it was never a strategy in itself what about now do you want to be the biggest now no nothing's changed i mean i I actually like the fact that we only have, you know, we have less than 50 people.

10:18And that's great. I like it. That's fine. We don't have an HR department. We don't want to have an HR department. Andrew Jones launched his business as Metric Property, with a focus on buying and investing in retail properties, such as out-of-town shopping parks. But since the business launched, it's pivoted and adapted to changing consumer trends, in particular, the growth of online shopping. It's moved into retail warehouses. This is where retailers hold the products that they use to deliver online orders. This pivoting and moving is a different approach to many other property companies or real estate investment trusts as they are known.

10:58These can often focus rigidly on one type of property, such as offices or shopping centres. We've always had a customer-centric approach to real estate. And that is why we have, you know, fantastic relationships with people like Marks and Spencers, people like B &M, you know, Next, B &Q, Sainsbury's. We've always been very close to our occupiers. And that allowed us to decide sometimes whether or not an asset was a good asset or a not so good asset. For me, it was never about whether or not your investment colleagues thought that we should buy something. It was all about did our customer make money from this building?

11:39did they want to stay there because a happy occupier stays longer invests more money and over time is is is more prepared to pay you a higher rate so that customer bit listening to customers is um has always always been part of our dna and my colleague mark and i spend a lot of time with occupiers even now yeah i just had breakfast with the property director of howden's you know the kitchen manufacturers and that's important because we've just done a transaction with them and our pivot is into various sectors as quite often being led by the by the occupier you know i mean credit for moving into warehouses actually goes to somewhere the property director of primark the then property director of arcadia and uh and maybe that my wife maybe you know and that was all about look we've got so many shops we just need better warehousing you know stop trying to sell me shops stop trying to build me new shops Andrew I've got enough of those but we really really short of warehousing and then the credit to my wife is when I came back on Christmas and just asked her how much of our Christmas shopping was was being done online and she said well all of it and I'm going back you know I'm going back 12 13 years I said that can't be right darling you know we all right 95 % then okay but that's what I'm doing you think all right okay so so so that they they were big triggers for our pivot listening to a customer in all in all walks of life is a good thing and so that helps move into warehousing and then more lastly um our our pivots or tilts into other sectors is is led you know it's an extension of that which is um looking at the macro trends that are taking place and seeing how that impacts real estate both good and bad so you know digitalization has absolutely you know allowed online shopping to prosper in the united kingdom you look at you know time is an increasingly more valuable commodity for people today than it might have been for my parents or my grandparents generation so that impacts on you know whether or not rather than spending an hour and a half doing a big grocery shop once a month they're happy to do 30 minutes every week so that affects our our allocation of capital into into convenience grocery you know marks and spencers being a big you know success story in that space the third macro thematic that we're following at the moment is increasing amount of non non-core discretionary spend that is going into entertainment and experience and you know general fulfillment away from traditional gm expenditure and and that certainly is is the support for our investments in you know well and long let theme parks budget hotels i could go on and talk about health care as well but it is it is our pivots are largely you know a combination of macro thematics well what about pace because you've talked about how there is sort of a drive and a bias towards activity and in in the industries how how do you as a ceo and as a business effectively stop yourself doing stuff and have the patience that's required well i i i start every year with with a i'm hoping to do nothing this year you know so we don't we don't start with um we we don't have a target of activity and if we're going to do something it has to be rational we have to be able to explain it we think spending money is easy we think investing money is really really difficult you know we i generally start with i want to say no i generally want to say no you know i was offered a deal on tuesday we've got to put the bid in by 10 a.m you know i'm getting ready at half seven i'm getting these emails with some pricing matrix for what we can afford and you know the quote price was 98.6 million and i'm looking at it and i go well i'm at 97.5 and that's that's my stretch well i don't think we're going to get it i said well great we don't get it i think the best set most of the time the best side to take in a bidding war is normally the losing side you know this morning i was offered something that that's coming up and you know the quote is 8.65 million slightly smaller scale my stretch is 8.4 i might go to 8.45 but i've no i'm not i i don't care if we buy or not doesn't bother me i just think that when you've got a great team they'll find some good assets it might be one in 10 sometimes there's one in 20 they'll find them but we do not need to be in a hurry because you just explained to people what the rule of 72 is well the rule of 72 is um it's based it's a time and return criteria i how long does it take and what returns do you need to double your money and so if you if your target return is eight percent per annum then you will you will double your money every nine years if you're aimed to double your money every six years then you need a target return of 12 so you you look at what your target number is return all time and you put that into 72 and that'll give you your answer either the time it will take you to double the money with a known return percent or um the percent you need in order to double the money based on your time horizon i mean it's printed on the back of my business card i was gonna ask you that i read that it was you want the business to think about it so much you put it on we think about it i mean and also it it's in some ways it's it's more important than that in real estate because actually this in order to do hit those returns those are your your your net return so So if you start incurring capital in order to achieve those returns, then it will take you even longer.

17:37See, that is why we've pivoted more recently into being, you know, looking at being a triple net REIT. Yours kind of were, but which is a, you know, whereby the income is the income. There is no deduction. There's no deduction for paying for common parts. There's no deduction for being responsible for the roof or the windows. with a triple net REIT all of the costs associated with the fabric of the building or the fabric of the estate I mean by car parking or landscaping lighting it rests with your occupier so the rent is the rent and there are no deductions and that helps the compounding you know I have a little note in my office in my desk that says a it's as simple as a b c always be compounding and that is very different to a lot of REITs in the United Kingdom who are hyperactive developers.

18:32It's always jammed tomorrow. They forget about the fact that they're living off bread and water for a long period of time. One of the business leaders who has influenced Andrew Jones the most is Warren Buffett, the legendary investor. Jones has read Buffett's books, visited the Berkshire Hathaway annual meeting in Omaha, and abides by Buffett's approach to investing. you know possibly apart from meeting my wife i think meeting verticals warren at a relatively young age actually didn't i have met i've been to omar harbour but um meeting warren at a relatively young age was was a was probably a defining moment and reading his books i mean i think i have three or four on my desk today um i had a picture literally above my on the left of my it does it's it's simple i mean you know we know we're going to do well but we might just have to be patient to do it the problem is we're surrounded by people investors arguably and certain investors and and peers who are you know we're in a hurry um so you know warren's been a big part i mean the truth is i went to omaha in april 2009 to the berkshire hathaway agm and it was the moment to decide really that i've got to do you know you if you didn't do it now you'll regret it but decide effectively to create a startup you know was on the flight home and it was it was one of those moments so yeah i'm very fortunate that i've um i discovered warren how did you meet him well i went to the it was just i went to the the um the agm it was that agm yeah yeah it was that agm what did you what did you what are the key think messages from him that it's very straightforward i mean it is very straightforward you know you don't have to be in a hurry you've got to be able to explain it people try to make things much more complicated than they need to be we are alert we are wide-eyed we're interested we are rational but amongst all we are patient and his business sidekick charlie who sadly passed away um just short of his 100th birthday i think he he did an interview with his credit it's very easy at Berkshire we have three buckets we have the yes no and the too difficult to work out and it's like that for us in real estate you know we have the yes to know and to you know sometimes we look at an opportunity or an asset client here's lovely if in doubt leave it out you know we just don't need to spend that time if you if you invest we'd rather and this is a Warren quote we'd rather in you know pay a fair price for a wonderful asset than a wonderful price for a fair asset and if you look at the compounding you know impact of investing in Berkshire or even Warren's net worth I mean it's been incredible you know I think roughly when he was just after he turned 50 he was worth about 3.5 billion and I think when he turned 80 he was probably I mean he's given a lot of money away but he was worth over 80 billion So, you know, it's an incredible machine, the compounding machine.

21:39I think Warren takes a lot of his cues from a gentleman called Benjamin Graham, who wrote The Intelligent Investor. You know, compounding, if you understand compounding, you'll earn it. If you don't, you'll pay it. And I think that's what a lot of REITs should think about more seriously than maybe the... Certainly, it's a concept that's been embraced more enthusiastically in the United States and in the Australian REIT regimes. You know, there is a segment of the US REIT market called triple nets, lots of them. I mean, actually, you know, you might say that the massive impact and activity that you've seen from realty income who've come over into the UK and Europe is partly because actually there aren't enough UK triple net REITs taking it seriously enough.

22:31Andrew Jones may have said no to a lot of deals, but he's also gone ahead with some big corporate mergers and acquisitions. Metric Property merged with London and Stanford to become London Metric. Then it went on to buy Midlands-based warehouse group A &J Mucklow for£415 million. And after that, it merged with rival LXI in a£1.9 billion deal. That final deal meant that London Metrics assets now include theme parks across the UK, such as Alton Towers and Thorpe Park. There's been a seismic shift in the retail landscape from the operator. You look at the demise of Arcadia, who I think at their peak probably have 2 ,500 shops across 10 different brands.

23:19You look at House of Fraser, Debenhams. you look at you look another countless other fashion operators the fashion representation on uk high street today has probably never been lower that goes back into my point around online my point around disposable income being allocated to other set other parts of the the economy but there are noticeable winners i mean what next do is is unbelievable i mean i think Simon is a genius. I mean, I think what he's created and continues to create is, you know, defies gravity. What a wonderful business. But a lot of that, obviously, a lot of the growth to that business is coming online, you know, rather than with physical shops.

24:05And, you know, if you read his latest letter, you know, you see the amount of rent that he's paying continues to fall, which is great for a business like Next. Isn't great for somebody who's invested in physical retail property. It's fine if you're in warehousing, quite frankly, because I suspect the rents he's paying on his warehouses are rising. So there's been a dramatic change in the retail landscape since the global financial crisis. You've had a sector emerge that never existed before, which is called the discount sector. OK, you know, we all grew up with a company called Woolworths. You know, that didn't evolve or pivot.

24:37and their demise has allowed companies like Home Bargains and B &M and even the range, you know, to flourish into billion pound companies, multi-billion pound companies. You know, that is a dramatic shift on where we were. You know, I remember in 2010 on our IPO Roadshow trying to explain to investors, you know, who B &M were or who Home Bargains were. And they're scratching their heads. Well, what do they sell? And so that is a sector that has been born out of the GFC. And also what you've seen in the grocery market is a move to convenience, you know, again, a move into, you know, being discount groceries as well.

25:23You know, you've seen the incredible growth of the German discounters, you know, Aldi and Lidl, but also companies like Food Warehouse, Farm Foods. and the unbelievable success that m &s simply food have had and and the ongoing popularity of waitrose and so that convenience grocery market is also boomed so so you know what are we seeing we're seeing um mid-box out-of-town retail doing well pumped up by the discounters b &m home bargains and the grocers, Aldi, Lidl, Waitrose, Marks and Spencers. You know, even you read recently that IKEA have taken a load of former home-based stores. Sainsbury's have taken a load of home-based stores, you know, to go into that convenience grocery market in a more meaningful way.

26:19And, you know, on the basis, they probably were not going to build too many big new Sainsbury's superstores. And I'm not picking on Sainsbury's, by the way, because I suspect it's the same for Tesco's. They won't be building too many either. but that's again it comes back down to consumer behavior that's what i touched on on earlier so the mid-box out-of-town market is very very strong i probably favor out-of-town retail parks over shopping centers although there are a handful of shopping centers that are still very important to the brands you know marks and spencers next you know still want to be in the best shopping centers the slight issue i have with them is that we probably built them all a little bit too big so there's always the tail end supply that sometimes can impact your your your your ability to capture rental growth but but there are some good ones out there you know it's a case of you know it's what i say is it's it's it's not that all shopping centers are bad and all logistics are good i mean you know that you there's room for it all you just want to buy the best of each one tell me about working with these retail bosses and entrepreneurs and ceos because it's some of the best and most well-known entrepreneurs in the UK and quite often you're sat across the negotiating table for them on on deals or leases or just to chew the fat about the state of the market so what they like to deal with I unfortunately I've done a lot of transactions with a lot of the names that we've we've talked about and you know we go into a negotiation thinking that this is a you know one of the great things about retail property market is that you can have long-term relationships it's a little bit harder in warehousing it's almost impossible in offices because you've done with one deal you're probably not going to do three or four i mean for us you know the ideal transaction for us is where we do four or five together we might lose on two of them but as long as we make on the three then we would be relatively happy you know i've been fortunate enough to work very closely with lord harris lord kirk when he was at dfs virtually all of the retailers and you you know you i suppose the adage you can only do a good deal with a good person it's hard to do a good deal with a bad person and not surprisingly you gravitate therefore to doing your deals with the good people you know why do you want to put yourself through the pain of trying to do a deal with a difficult person and you know we don't have to win on every deal we really don't you know we're going to be around to you know for the replay we're not going into a transaction looking to win five nil you know we would rather actually not win a little bit less there but can we do another deal and whether or not that's leasing whether or not it's development whether or not it's rent reviews you know we don't have to kill you on every deal you know as long as we we think okay fine all right we'll settle that one of them we just don't we just don't you know with a return we've just i think settled five rent reviews and some of them are a bit lower than we were hoping for but you know we were some of them are a little bit higher than we feared we might get.

29:06You said Simon Wilson was a genius. Why do you think he's so impressive? Well, the way in which they've navigated the evolution of consumer behavior, their early move into online via the Next Directory, for those of you who actually remember that the Next Directory was a physical book. Hardback cattle, yes. Proper coffee table material. um the ability to flex his physical real estate portfolio incredibly well uh very strong real estate team from originally by andrew and more laterally by by dom generally very fair people to deal with tough but fair and and to do that you know because because of the demise of many retailers has been the inflexibility of their real estate portfolios you know their ability well we can't get out of this unit locked into upward long up the only rent review um contracts um next have been very very smart at it i think they are i mean i would argue they took real estate more seriously than nearly any other retailer and i think that's paid off in some ways apart from yeah i i can't talk about the retailing genius of people because that's not my space but you know from my own experiences you know they they've navigated the shift in consumer behavior i mean i i mean i don't know the actual number but i suspect over 40 percent of next sales now are online you know and i think that's the way it's heading for gm are there any colorful stories you can share about some of the dealings that you had well yeah i've got a lot of colorful stories i'm just not sure there are i'm going to save those for for a chapter and uh you know if i ever got around to to writing a book i mean yeah i mean retailers generally are pretty colorful particularly the entrepreneurs you know the people who created their own businesses you know people like phil harris graham kirkham you know mike ashley you know philip green you know these are very colorful characters and that i've uh that you have got i probably have stories about all of them actually but i probably keep that to myself what's interesting i i think is that a lot of them are really hands-on on the property is that right so it literally you will be with the CEO doing their property deals?

31:19Oh, every deal I did with Carpetrite, I dealt with the chairman. We'll talk about individual shops here. Every single day. Same with DFS at the time when it was owned by or run by Graham. Every deal I would have done with him. Did you learn anything from the different entrepreneurs and CEOs you came across? Yeah. I mean, look, I think that they shared some similar values. It wasn't that they were trying to hit me on every deal. similarly you know even when they could they didn't try to hit me on every deal um they were looking at the next deal it was going to be a longer term relationship and we were hopefully both going to prosper some entrepreneurs try and hit you know as as some probably people do try and try and want they do want to win five now when you get beaten five nil on a transaction you probably don't go back for a rematch you know and so you know hence you you you kind of pivot away from opportunities where they might be involved in the future.

32:16But the one thing about retail, it is still some colourful characters that have been involved, and that has made the job incredibly stimulating, but always enjoyable. You know, 2008-9 was a tough period for retailers. It was a tough period for landlords, and, you know, COVID was tough. You know, I remember the people who behaved honorably in COVID and I remember the people who didn't. And, you know, we helped out a number of our customers who were closed with payment plans and asset management deals. And those who tried to take advantage of the situation, we dealt with quite strongly. This is people who basically refused to pay and wouldn't communicate with you.

33:05Yeah, or tried to bully you. you know and i have some good stories on that one as well um which again i'll probably say for the second chapter of the book i mean big names big big names you know some of them were open i mean some of it's well publicized you know they were they were trading and or businesses that had unbelievable balance sheets i mean i got a request from one customer who wrote to me emailed me asking for six months rent free this was a you know a big company footsie 100 company you know had a big balance shoot and asked for the six months rent free because you know the market was uncertain it goes back to something that you know warren buffett said you know you can't unsign a contract so do all the thinking before you sign that's what a contract is you know i think simon wolfson said at the time he said look we've signed a contract we have an obligation we have to meet our obligations we you know we flexed it with a few people we we allow them to pay monthly to help the cash flows and that was you know it's an easy give but it was the people who said we're just not paying that wasn't that's not it's not a unilateral decision you know it's it felt like a case of you know you know when times are tough you want me to you know share the pain but when times are great i don't remember you sharing the gain you know you privatize the profits but you want to socialize the losses and that didn't feel quite so fair and that is a business basically saying to you we're not going to take the pain on this you are yeah and we we did i mean look i'll be honest with you there were some businesses that we you know some businesses like we have some movie theaters at cinemas and you know they weren't open so we we worked with with them with odian they were fantastic um we worked out payment plans and there was no issue there are other businesses where we put winding up petitions in you know wind because these were big businesses they were very public and we were going to what we will there's a winding up petition going to go in if you don't pay me because you can pay me it was a case of you just thought that this was a an opportunity to screw you and those are people we don't deal with today you know we don't deal with them i mean you know there are plenty of other opportunities and we got blesses from some retailers or their lawyers saying you know i just want to be clear my client does not want to be in you know what doesn't will not look to do future transactions with you i said well just write back and say look don't flatter yourself you know we won't be doing any transactions with you either but look you know you it's i actually got an email from one chief exec who looked for a looking for some help and we gave the company some help listed company and he wrote to me, wrote a handwritten letter saying, thank you, Andrew, for all of your help.

35:57In these times like this, you find out who your friends are. And those are the sort of letters I wanted.

36:05You've been listening to the Business Leader Podcast with me, Graeme Ruddick. Our producer is Anushka Tate. If you enjoyed this episode, then please subscribe or follow the Business Leader Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you get updates on new episodes go live.

36:51who are shaping the future of business.