The glory of Greggs with Roisin Currie

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0:41We look forward to seeing you there. Gregs, Gregs, Gregs, Gregs, Gregs. Everyone's talking about Gregs. Literally, my Uber driver last night spent the whole 10-minute ride talking about Gregs. Unprovoked. I didn't ask him about it. I had never heard of it, but now it's all I can think about. It's in my dreams, and I'm extremely excited to be trying it out for the first time today. And I got a lot of things, all right? Before I forget, let me just read off everything I got on this. I think it was from the Daily Press in Norwich earlier this week. You were asked if you'd ever had a Greggs, to which the Prime Minister replied, how many times have I ever not had a Greggs, unless I specifically tell you otherwise, I am made of Greg's.

1:28Last time you bought a sausage roll at Greg's, Prime Minister, how much did it cost? I don't know. I give up. You have no idea. You've just told me that you're made of Greg's, so you must eat these sausage rolls all the time. £1.90. I have no idea. £1.90. Prime Minister, thank you for appearing here. I have eaten... I've also eaten... vegan sausage rolls. Have you eaten a vegan sausage? I've not, but it's meant to be a monster hit for that bakery chain. Everyone loves Greggs. That was two very different clips that sum up the reach of this brand. Firstly, you had Ben Dean. He's an American YouTuber who posts videos of himself trying different food from around the world, including Greggs.

2:11He gets millions of viewers. Then we had Boris Johnson talking about Greggs while he was Prime Minister. Greggs started as a bakery chain in Newcastle in 1939. Today, it has more than 2 ,600 shops in the UK, which is more than McDonald's or Starbucks. But despite its size, many people still think of Gregg's as their local bakery chain. I've come to Newcastle, to Gregg's' home, to find out what makes this business so unique.

2:48I'm Graham Ruddick and this is the Business Leader Podcast. I'm here in Newcastle to try to find out about the essence of Greggs and the secrets behind this business success story. In 2024, Greggs sales rose 11 % to£2 billion and pre-tax profits rose 8 % to£204 million. pounds. Greggs is valued on the stock market at around 2 billion. In many ways though this business should be struggling. Greggs could have been consumed by the decline of UK high streets or the expansion of supermarket convenience store chains like Tesco Express or the profiteration of copy chains like Costa, Starbucks and PrEP.

3:32But Greggs has thrived and not only that but it's still growing. Greggs has more than 2 ,600 shops in the UK, as I've already said, but it wants to have more than 3 ,000. And it now offers online delivery services too, via Uber Eats and Just Eat. I've come to Greggs' house in Newcastle to speak to Roisin Curry, the chief executive of Greggs, about how this business has succeeded and how it's been able to pull off marketing stunts like a clothing range with Primark, a champagne bar with department store chain Fennix and Christmas adverts with celebrity chef Nigella Lawson.

4:12We don't take ourselves too seriously so we're willing, we're quite a humble brand and I think we still feel like a really small business and we're willing to try something that's maybe a bit tongue in cheek knowing some people might have a bit of a laugh at us and actually we don't mind that because we're quite quirky. I think Greg's customers have got a lot of affection for the brand in fact I think a lot of the time I always think Greg's customers believe that the brand belongs to them so therefore we've got to be careful what we do so I think you're always trying to be tongue-in-cheek a little bit in funny lean into sort of cultural moments that are happening I think we've got an awesome team that just they are brilliant it's spotting the great opportunities and it's interesting because I always say when people talk about collaborations, I always say the skill of the team is probably they say no to more than they say yes to.

5:14So they've got a real ability to, you know, the amount of incoming that they'll get or I'll get and pass to them, that they'll just go. On collaborations. On collaborations, absolutely. That they'll just go, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, actually, there is a synergy there. There's something that we think our customers would like. again I think if you had an ego as a brand you might lean into more of those collaborations just because you think oh actually they'll have reach I think the team are really good at picking the ones that are a little bit more left field quirky and we'll have a bit of a laugh with them do you have a personal favor whether the Primark or the Champagne Bar or um Nigella Lawson is there any of the recent things that you've done that you were particularly fond of do you know it's But as each one comes up, I probably go, oh, my God, I loved that one.

6:02I loved that one. So I think so the Primark one I loved. So and again, this is where there's no hierarchy in the business. So we queued up at Primark. So I queued up for the first drop at Primark in Leeds to try and get the merch that I wanted. And again, what we don't do is just because, you know, we're the directors of the business. That doesn't give us access to the bucket hat early. and that's really important because I remember being able to talk to colleagues here and look them in the eye when they said oh I queued up on Saturday morning I was like so did I I queued up on Saturday morning as well so I think when that one came out maybe that because that was the sort of that was a real moment in time where you almost thought will customers really want to buy Greg's merch and actually you know we found that drop number one sold out instantly drop number two sold out really quickly and then we increased the volumes massively to try and keep up with demand and interestingly I had a friend I sort of thought gosh how much customers love Greg's Merge I had a friend that was living in New York at the time and she sent a picture of someone walking over Brooklyn Bridge head to toe in Greg's Merge and you sort of go again really funny moment when you go oh my goodness you know goodness how did you ever think you would see that in terms of someone undressed in Greg's merch and and I have to say the champagne bar was a bit of a highlight so I actually went there on my birthday in November to try it it was phenomenal and it wasn't just it wasn't just the quirkiness of the product plus the glass of the fizz the service and at Fenwick as well in terms of the colleagues behind the bar were just brilliant so uh yeah everyone that comes I uh I think god that's another one Teddy Swims last night was just brilliant that's the one that's just come out and goodness me what the team did with the Greggs fan and that was just phenomenal uh but it's also I think it's a smile that it puts on people's face and the number of incoming I then get people going oh my god this was just amazing which is real credit to the team how do you keep people liking the brand so much because you've got more than two and a half thousand locations across the country but people when they're almost when they're so fond of Greg's think of it still as like their local baker almost does it keep you up at night worrying about the brand and keeping it as popular as it is yeah and again I think number one for that is our colleagues so you know in reality you know that the brand could be amazing if when you come into our shops we don't serve you well with that friendliness and making sure that you get a quality product at value prices and I think you very quickly can lose that sort of affection for the brand.

8:45So I think it's something we are relentlessly focused on. We will never take for granted. You're always trying to make sure that you follow what the customer is looking for. I think as long as we continue to change, we continue to innovate, nothing is off limits. If we see something that customers are looking for, then we should absolutely explore it and decide, can we bring it to the market in a way that delivers volume quality and at a really great price for the customer so again we'll watch some trends ice drinks is probably a really good example of that we watched it for a while until we believed actually we could now do that really well at volume and give the customers a price that is unbeatable in the market so again not every trend that we see will we go into immediately we'll probably wait until we believe actually there is enough volume in the market now we sort of call ourselves a lot of the time fast followers in some of those areas interestingly vegan sausage oil we're more of an innovator so i think we live in both areas we'll sometimes innovate and other times we'll follow fast but we'll always try and make sure that we're always looking to see what's the next consumer trend and can we deliver that for them.

10:07What Roisin Curry has said there I think gives an insight into why Greggs has thrived. She's talking about a willingness to move quickly, to experiment and for staff to take the initiative. Those are attributes that we celebrate in modern technology companies but wouldn't necessarily expect from a high street food retailer. Number one I would say the magic of Greggs is our 33 ,000 colleagues so i do i mean i have to say our people are phenomenal they really are you know i always say if i wasn't here tomorrow this business will continue our teams however that are in our shops in our bakeries making our products serving our customers we are so relying on them day in day out and and they they don't just deliver their job they go above and beyond and i you know sometimes I think we need to always make sure we spend enough time catching them doing things right and thanking them for what they do.

11:05So I would have to say our people are absolutely that sort of, we do call them that secret sauce. And I think the other piece I would say is we never stop and celebrate. We always celebrate and move on. So I think there's something about we never get to the point and think, oh gosh, God, wasn't that brilliant? I think we're always going fantastic milestone now what's next and and there is something about I mean I think food eating is something that that you know it's quite an emotional thing to do because actually you eat great product you feel good and you enjoy it I mean you eat and you socialize you feel yourself you feel good about it I think the end that the team do a great job again it following the consumer so what is that next end consumer trend so vegan sausage roll was a great example of that where we could see there was a gap in the market that if you were someone don't need to be a vegan just someone that maybe wants less meat in your diet across the week there was there was no products out there that allowed you that on the go product to get you through the day and we'd had feedback on it the food team then spent a couple of years trying to come up with what what what is what is the best product that we could possibly give to our customers what i would say is you know what the public will never see is and there was lots of failures along that journey so there was lots of products that developed in the kitchen that they didn't think were quite good enough they didn't think the quality was great they didn't think the taste was great so so they just kept going we we call it feel fast they just kept going and trying and trying and trying until then they came up with a product and we all stood over at the kitchen across the road and we all tried the product and we all sort of you know breathed and said we think this could be a winner and but interestingly even for us we only I can't remember how many shops we um ranged in but didn't range across all the shops it was probably about half of the shops we ranged it in we agreed it would be a 12-week rotational product and then that would And the day it launched, gosh, we had queues around the shops.

13:18And we quickly, I mean, it's one of those times we quickly have to say to the supply chain team, I know we said we needed X volume. We need X times 10 volume. What can you do? But again, that was the food team not resting on other great products, but following what is the next consumer trend and probably working relentlessly to bring something else new to the market. Do you think you're prepared to experiment and iterate more than other businesses might be? So I think what we've probably got, so are we willing to or have we got the capability to? I think I wondered what's capability actually. So we can do lots of very small trials very quickly.

13:59So, you know, and again, lots of our customers wouldn't see this. But recently over in Manchester shops with a few different products, we were trialing just in 10 products at 10 shops. and then from that we identified right the winning products the mac cheese and now we've gone into to roll out mode and i think there's a few reasons that maybe we can do that one is small shops you can try fast and as well as the customers telling us because if the customers start to buy the product you can see by your sales right we think we've got a winner but what's really important for us is the shop team have to tell us as well because there is a problem you know you've got to be very careful you don't start to over complicate this business so there might be something the customer might love but if the shop teams are telling us we can't do this well enough or we can't keep it on sale or if we're finding it too hard actually we've got to listen to that as much as the sales normally what will happen in that instance is it'll come back in here for incubation and improvement around right you cannot roll it out because the shop teams are saying it's the too hard to do pile but the team then work very quickly so between the commercial team the retail team they'll actually work together very quickly to then come up with right what's the next solution we're very lucky around that are not there's no politics of a small p in this organization and sometimes i think it's quite trite when we say that but truly everyone is here for the purpose of delivering great quality freshly prepared food and making accessible to the customers and i think that that overpowers anyone sitting around the table thinking it's just about their function so we get a lot of cross-functional work and i've had people in the past say it's a competence that we've actually just developed and maybe back to the secret sauce of the business around your amazing colleagues is a competence that we've developed very naturally so people overcome issues together and you you very rarely get people pointing the finger and saying that didn't work because of is usually what can i do to help you make it work so um that that innovation feel fast trial and learn i think we're just lucky that we can then get after things very quickly so that Decisions that are made on a mixture of data, but also feedback from the staff.

16:27Definitely, definitely. So we call our people our colleagues and their feedback is really important. So we spend a lot of time out in our shops and out in our bakeries and listening to our people and getting their feedback. And it's interesting, you always know a product's going to be a winner when you go out and about. and A, we're seeing the sales data coming through, but the shop teams are, you know, when you visit a shop and they go, why have I not got X yet? You know, it's going to be a winner because obviously they could start to see that's what our customers are wanting to buy. So ice drinks was a really good example of that.

17:03We rolled out over ice drinks last year. As I was going around parts of the UK, number one question for the shop managers was, when can I get the over ice drinks? Because they'd seen their colleagues getting it in different parts of that location. they'd seen how well it was sailing and they knew that they wanted that as part of their sales driving initiative so feedback from our teams is absolutely critical and listening to the customers how do you foster that openness in the business both between departments but also from the shop floor so it gets back to you because it's one thing to say it but Greg's is very clearly doing it and getting that honest feedback is can be quite challenging so how do you foster it so I I think, number one, I would probably say we truly are not a hierarchical organisation.

17:50So, yes, you know, I might have the privilege of being the current chief executive. When I'm out and about in the shops, our teams will tell me exactly what they think about, you know, what someone is delivering or the product that we've given them. If they think that we have overcomplicated something, they will absolutely tell me. and again I guess when I go around the shops and I ask a question of someone and you know what could we be doing better sometimes there's a danger that people go no no no everything's great and you go okay so and what about the current sandwich range no no no that's the pay okay what about hot food and then you almost have to ask the question and then all of a sudden our teams will go well actually and then you know I laugh because then you can have another 10 minutes of them telling you here are all the things that I think we need to do better that is so powerful because actually that probably forms a lot of our discussions as a top team around right what are people telling us and what do we need we need to do better so i think it is that piece around making sure that you work hard to let people know i don't want to hear what you think i want to hear i want to hear what you truly think and i think it's also about valuing our people so um again that's why i always talk about the secret sauce of this business is the 33 000 people and then i think it's also about rewarding them so we do something called profit share which we will pay out next week i think it's this thursday for early paid colleagues and then next tuesday and that's where and that's something that um ian greg set up many many years ago and it's where um we share 10 of the profits with everyone that works across the business again i I think feeling that connection that, you know, because our shops are hard to work in.

19:41Our bakeries are tough places. Our people work extremely hard. So I think both saying thank you, but then also making sure they feel as if they share in the rewards of the business and what we deliver. I think that does help you create one team. You know, we're all in it together. Is there a recent example you can think of where the ops board or senior management have gone in one direction, thought a product or something was a good idea and then it's come back from the shop floor feedback being, no, this isn't going to work. I mean, the best example is probably pre-Christ was I think it was November where we tried these different pasta products and I think very quickly the shop teams that were trying it in told us, I think it might even be before the product went live Matt Cheese is a winner, your other product isn't and actually, and to be fair the commercial team at that point wanted to try and roll out two products So that was what was in their head for this year.

20:37When it came back to the table in terms of the overwhelming colleague feedback and the customer numbers, it was one of those no-brainers where you sort of go, their feedback's right, just go with mac cheese, go with mac cheese, get it out, move quickly, get it to the market. Our customers are loving it and actually kill the other product for now. Now, again, that doesn't mean it won't go back into the kitchen and be reworked on around another option. But the commercial team really wanted to try and give the customers two pasta choices. The colleague feedback was just give one. And that's what we've gone with.

21:14And I do think simplicity sometimes in your quest to want to do lots for your customers, our shop teams probably just hold us back a bit, which is really good and say, But if you ask us to do less, we can do it even better, rather than maybe proliferate a range that the customer doesn't require.

21:35As I touched on at the start of this episode, Greggs is still growing. Not only does it want to open new shops and expand its online delivery service, but after its success with breakfast and lunch food, Greggs now wants to sell more food in the evenings too, such as pizza. This means the business will continue to evolve. Over the last decade, Greggs has already changed a lot. Ten years ago, four out of five Greggs shops were on the high street. But today, only around half are on the high street. The others are in places such as train stations, retail parks and universities. This change has come with challenges too.

22:10Shares in Greggs have fallen by around a third in 2025, despite its sales and profits rising. There have been concerns about whether Greggs can continue to grow at the same pace, given the sluggish UK economy and the lack of confidence among consumers. We were thrilled to have delivered£2 million of sales and outperformed the profit numbers in terms of what the market was expecting. I think this is just a feature of being a PLC. And I guess what you've got to accept is that your shareholders, they're not pricing in today's performance. They are pricing in what they think the outlook ahead looks like.

22:50I think the fact that there's so much cost that have hit businesses as a result of the budget, I think there's a little bit of a, oh my gosh, anyone in that consumer retail sector that employs thousands of people, you know, there's a bit of a jury's out, can you really pass these costs on? So I think you have to prove that, you have to demonstrate that we can. We've got a very strong track record of doing that. I think the other piece is we are asking for significant investment in the business because we've got these two new sides. So again, we are very clear on why we are so confident in this number of up to 3 ,500.

23:27But I guess people potentially just want you to prove is that the case. And then I think because the macroeconomics just now, we know that the consumer is saving, not spending. I think it's almost there's a myriad of factors out there that means the stock market has questions I can't manage what that stock market does I can make sure we're telling a really good story I can make sure as a team that we're delivering the numbers I can give confidence in you know why we have got data points that says this plan is the right one and we should continue to go but really what I need to do is keep everyone very focused on the plan because actually the proof will be in the results that we deliver this year the next year and beyond and that's probably where the focus is do you think people underestimate how much gregs has changed over the last 10 years really i mean that 18 high street to 48 but also the competition that you've had to deal with the continuing expansion of convenience stores and supermarkets on onto high street the move from in-store baking to centralised bakeries and warehouses.

24:35There's been an incredible amount of change in this business that people may not necessarily have seen, but has actually happened. I think you are spot on. And actually, you sort of think, does the British public need to even worry? But I think you're right. I think if you could almost, if there was some sort of time capsule and could take us back maybe 20 years ago, 30 years ago, I think we would all go, oh my goodness. It's funny, even we still have, because we've got a lot of long-serving colleagues in the business so we've got colleagues out in retail and our bakeries that have been with us 40 50 years even when I go around to visit them they'll still talk to me about when they used to have to boil the eggs to then you know slice them to put them in the sandwiches when they had to cut all their tomatoes so I think it is that piece around we sort of have got a phrase in the business around evolution not revolution and I think again back to this piece about protecting and nurturing the magic the secret sauce I think because we constantly evolve actually we do it at a pace that allows our colleagues to come with us and that's why back to the beginning listening to our colleagues is so important because I think if you didn't take your colleagues with you actually what's the point of finding you know you're halfway across the battlefield but yet you know no one heard the directions around which way you were marching and again I think that was a big learning I got through the ASDA way of working in the sort of 90s was it was all about being very clear on the direction of travel and then making sure that you take people with us so I think the fact that we've evolved so much and maybe people haven't quite noticed all the pivotal points but they now go oh gosh actually we love it and we serve 8 million customers every single week of the year that's phenomenal and I think that's credit to going at the pace that the consumer wants you to it expects but also going at the pace that you can take your colleagues with you on that journey so I think we've changed phenomenally and we will continue to change I hope if we were sitting here in 10 years time we'll be talking about you know gosh you know think about the changes now compared to where we were in 2025.

26:49Roisin Curry joined Greggs in 2010 as People Director. Her predecessor as Chief Executive was Roger Whiteside, and he spotted something special in her. He expanded Curry's role so she took on responsibility for Greggs' shops and properties. When Whiteside left in 2022, Curry succeeded him as Chief Executive. Before joining Greggs, Roisin Curry spent 19 years at Asda, where she worked with some of the leading figures in the retail industry during a glorious period. the supermarket chain. This included people like Alan Layton and two figures we have heard from before on this podcast, Archie Norman and Justin King.

27:30It was 20 years I was at ASDA, a phenomenal time, phenomenal journey. I started working two nights a week in the cigarette kiosk because I also worked in a shoe shop, I also worked in the bookies to get myself through uni. Archie and Alan took the business over and they started to do something called ASDA Way of Working. I was in my second year. of university but that point I had worked my way up to be a checkout supervisor so on my evenings and weekends when I worked at ASDA I would be responsible for the bank of checkouts and in interest I mean I guess a lot of this is around your career good luck and right time right place I had a really forward-looking general store manager at the time ASDA were restructuring as part of the ASDA way of working and they wanted more emphasis on customer service so they were removing the roles of supervisor and they were putting something in called deputy customer service managers and customer service managers and interestingly Brian Seakey came to me and sort of said look there's a selection process to go through to get to become a deputy customer service manager I think you could do it part-time so would you be willing to go through the process you would end up being probably two or three nights a week plus your weekends but you would become a deputy customer our service manager so went through so still studying went through the selection process got through it and got the role but what was really interesting is I then got access to all of the leadership modules and there was about two years away and again this was driven by Archie and Alan and it was all about you know unlocking the talent and the potential of their people to all march in the same direction I then got to go through all of those modules so as an undergraduate I was almost getting trained in leadership skills at a very young age and to manage you know big groups of people and manage them really well then when I graduated I had a couple of different options but one was I'd gone through the selection for the graduate program and then got to go on as the graduate program and and that was an easier decision for me if I'm honest I want my other opportunity to take me to London I was I was too scared to move away from Glasgow so it was almost one of those that actually easier option was was asda the asda graduate program and very funnily about three years later i got moved down to living bath and cover the southwest of england so about as far away from glasgow as you could get but i just think the opportunities and how much they were driving asda at the time to there was a sort of um we use these words challenge and involved so it was almost you were constantly being challenged to do better to do more but you were in being involved in what the decisions should make so and I gosh I just think I was extremely lucky to have grown up in that organization and even though I was there for 20 years it never felt like that because the organization was constantly changing and I was constantly being given a next opportunity a new opportunity which just allowed you to continually grow and develop and then to your point there are role models round about me in terms of looking up to people and seeing how they led how they coped with challenging um issues how they had courageous conversations and i feel extremely privileged to have been able to sort of watch all of those people and develop as a leader at the same time what do you mean by courageous conversations So I think the whole challenge and involved culture at ASDA was, actually, this wasn't an easy place to be.

31:08If something wasn't going well, then we called it courageous conversation. You had to set that person down, even though you might have a great relationship with them, and be willing to point out where the areas of improvement were required. And we used to say, actually, by having that honest conversation, you build trust with that individual because there's no point allowing someone to think they're doing a great job. And actually, you've got a few concerns about them. So it was almost around whenever you sit down for your one-to-ones, your appraisals, you have to have the courageous conversation.

31:43You have to, as well as saying thank you and well done and here's the stuff that you're doing well, you've also got to point out, actually, where do you think the improvements could come? with something called um lcs i still remember this goodness likes concerns suggestions so again if you and i were sitting down together and you maybe i had some feedback i needed to give you about what needed to improve i would also be talking about what i really liked about what you were doing i then outline you know here's a few areas we need to think about and talk about and improve on but i'd also be responsible for giving you in suggestions of how you could improve and that so and but it was happening all round about you so again if you were at a meeting you know there was quite robust conversations got on at that meeting but but you learned how to do it in a way that wasn't personal but moved the organization on how much have you learned about being a ceo from that leadership team but also from from roger gosh i'm an immense amount I have to say Roger was phenomenal as a leader.

32:47Roger was just awesome and I learned so much and if I'm honest it was probably Roger that really encouraged me and gave me the confidence to consider putting my hat in the ring for CEO. So I never had an ambition to be a CEO. My ambition was always just to do a really good job in the role that you're given today. I always wanted to move on but it was never ambition in terms of getting to the top of the tree it was almost more you know keep me fulfilled keep me challenged keep me enjoying what I do and if I'm honest I've always been really lucky I've always worked in brilliant teams with brilliant bosses and I think if you if you're privileged enough to have had that career you just learn so much from those people and I think coming from ASDA to Greggs what was lovely was when I first joined Greggs it almost felt like the ASDA that I had joined which was much smaller you could put your arm around it you can be very agile you could make decisions quickly and then just as a leader would just laser sharp focus on what are the areas that we're really going to move the dial on and you don't need to worry about everything actually you need to which is why just now the mantra of let's worry about what's within our control because we've got a really clear strategic plan that's what our focus needs to be and there'll be some other issues that we have to deal with along the way but that's for me and the top team to worry about not for everyone else in the organization and so yeah i think he sort of really held and taught me focus but he also gave me a lot of confidence and pushed me on even you know moving from the people role to then take on people and retail and join those two functions together that was a really scary step I think there might have been other bosses where I just sort of said oh gosh no that's too hard to do I think because I knew Roger was going to be so supportive of a helping me make it work but b he was also really he was brutally honest so I also had the confidence that if he thought I was not doing a good job in this he would absolutely tell me and I think that's really important as well maybe that comes back to having grown up in an organization with us courageous conversations I want to trust people round about me my teams my peers you know people in the organization if they think I'm not doing something right or well enough or I've made a mistake I want to able to trust that they are willing to give me that feedback because I think that's the only way you improve and also I think it gives you the confidence to try and be a great CEO knowing gosh you will get something wrong but people will tell you and I think that's what I knew with Roger is if I don't make it work in this retail and people role and my only one ask of him was if I don't make it work please don't get rid of me please let me go back to be the people director But again, I think you do.

35:49I sometimes say to people in careers, you just sometimes need someone that puts the hand at the small of your back and gives you that little push, but also is willing to walk alongside you and they'll catch you when you do get a few things wrong. But they won't let it fester or get out of control. They'll get you back on track quickly. And again, I think I've just been very lucky with my bosses that I've done that. Is that how you found it in those early stages with the retail part of the job, that you were given the freedom to find your way and make mistakes and learn from them? Yeah, and number one, I knew when I went into the retail role, so I was very competent as a people leader.

36:28When I went into the retail role, yes, I had had operational experience in Asda, but I hadn't in Greggs. So I was very aware I had four brilliant heads of retail that reported into me. So from day one, I was very overt with them around. You are all much better retail leaders than I will ever be. So therefore, we will make decisions as a team. so I will be coming to you with my thoughts, my views, my ideas and I need you to critique them and I need you to tell me that we've done that, that just doesn't work but I also need you to be open-minded enough that if I've got a new idea that didn't work 10 years ago that could just be yeah because 10 years ago we're in a different world, can we try it again today?

37:14I still got the mantra that I surround myself with people who are much better doing their jobs than I could ever be and I do think that's the that's why as a team we're so successful I want my people director to be much better than I ever was I want my retail director to be much better than I ever was because actually the sum of the team is much more powerful than having a great CEO and a nine directs report actually if you can get all of us firing on every cylinder challenging each other we will be a team to be reckoned with and i think that's where we are how many people do you have directly reporting into you now nine is that and how does that feel as a as a number is yeah i mean i think i have to say i think it's um it's a fantastic team really high potential really capable we've just had two people retiring uh and we've had two new joiners so i think and the team's the team keeps evolving but it evolves in a very natural way we've got high trust as a team so again this piece around people are willing to sit around the table and speak up if they don't think something's right if they worry about something or if they think we're making a poor decision so as I think just now you know as a team of 10 driving the business the size of it is I think what about the right numbers but it's certainly a very high performing team

38:38you've been listening to the business leader podcast with me graham roddick our producer is anushka tate for more business case studies and masterclasses please check out businessleader.co.uk

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