The real power of emotional intelligence in business

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0:41We look forward to seeing you there. You know what I want to mess around with? The belief that I matter, you know? Regardless of what I do or don't achieve. Or what about the belief of hope? Yeah, that's what I want to mess with. Believing that things can get better, that I can get better, that we will get better.

1:11Oh man, to believe in yourself, to believe in one another, man, that's fundamental to being alive. When Ted Lasso hit international screens in 2020, the show became an instant hit. It scooped numerous awards, including the Emmy for Best Comedy, as it buried its way into the cultural zeitgeist. The brainchild of Scrubs and Shrinking creator Bill Lawrence, it has become an often referred to case study, not only for inspirational quotes and heartfelt moments, but also of emotional intelligence.

1:53I'm Josh Dornbrack and this is the Business Leader Podcast. In today's episode, we take a look at a subject which is often seen as abstract and fluffy by many, but with over two decades worth of experience in it, author Amy Jacobson has helped break through the misconceptions of what emotional intelligence really is. Before we can start any conversation on the topic, we need to understand what happens within our brain chemistry. I kind of use that definition to compare it to IQ, right? Because most people know what IQ is. And I look at IQ and IQ is what we know and what we can do. It's really what's in our brain, right?

2:30The emotional intelligence or the EQ or the EI is the how and why we do it. When we enter into the workplace, we are surrounded by people who have different wiring to us, that have different values, have different beliefs, have different opinions. These days, we are encouraging people to have a voice. We're encouraging people to have equality, to have diversity, to have inclusion. But with that comes a whole lot of different voices, a whole lot of different opinions, a whole lot of different values and beliefs. So what we find that happens in the workplace is as we start to encourage people to have more of a voice and to be more vulnerable and to be honest and speak up, we have these differences that occur.

3:11And in our mind, we do things the way that we do them because we believe it to be right. So when we're fronted with somebody who has a different response than we would usually have or has a different approach or a different way or a different style, it's that fight or flight mechanism that goes off in our mind. If I have the need to be right and Josh, you're voicing a completely different opinion to me, or you're suggesting a different way to do it, then that's when that confrontation happens, right? Because my mind's saying, well, Josh, it's not rocket science, just do it my way. Like, what are you talking about?

3:46What would you know? And then in your mind, you're going, well, no, hang on a second. My mind is telling me that this is right. So this is where you start to have these confrontations in workplaces. And we know that the majority of these conflicts that are happening in workplaces internally and externally, so even when it's with a customer or with a stakeholder or with, you know, a peer. This is because we have these different opinions, we have these different values, these different beliefs, and therefore our emotional intelligence is struggling. There are countless books on this very topic, arguably most notably the work of Daniel Goleman, whose 1995 books spend 18 months on the New York Times bestseller list and is in print worldwide in over 40 languages.

4:30He defines emotional intelligence using self-awareness, self-regulation, empathy, communication and motivation. But Jacobson takes a slightly different approach and boils it down to five pillars. Own it, face it, feel it, ask it and drive it. If you have a look at the first two steps, which is own it and face it, this is 100 % in our own head. Because ultimately, to be emotionally intelligent, first off you have got to own who you are I like to say I'm not sure if it's right for your audience or not but it's own your shit that is where emotional intelligence starts you've got to own the wirings in your mind you've got to own the values and beliefs that are driving your decisions but you've also got to own the reality of life that the only thing you have control of in this life is yourself and how you choose to respond as for everything else that's happening around you you have no control over it but you've got to own and accept the reality of it so that first step on emotional intelligence is really looking and going, am I truly owning everything that I've done and achieved?

5:32Am I owning what drives me? Am I owning my values and beliefs? Am I owning how well I manage my own emotions? Am I owning the impact I have on the people around me? Am I owning communications? And am I owning my own motivation? Then you look at that face it, which is that's when all of the emotions start coming out, right? And this face it is the point that you've got to face your emotions. Now, if you're unable to face your emotions, if you ignore your emotions or bottle them up or push them down, that's not emotionally intelligent because every emotion that happens within us, there's no such thing as a good or bad emotion.

6:05Every emotion happens for a reason. So you've got to face each emotion and you've got to understand what is driving that emotion. Where is it coming from? You've got to acknowledge it and you've got to process that emotion. So those first two steps, that internal part of emotional intelligence is how well am I owning and facing who I am? Then you get out of your own head and you go to the feel it, which is the third stage. And this is when it's no longer about us. It's how the people around me feeling. So this is when you start to become aware of how well do I understand the people around me? How well do I understand what their values and beliefs are?

6:41How well do I empathize with people? How well am I, like how good am I at empowering other people? All of this stuff that kind of comes down to it's no longer about me it's about the people around me and how are they feeling so it's your understanding of them then that fourth step is the ask it and this is communication so this is about asking the right questions but it's also about answering the questions that are being asked of you so when people are asking you questions are you truly answering those questions or are you pushing them aside or giving them you know kind of a cover over answer.

7:14So really making sure the communication is a two-way. And then that fifth area is drive it. And that is the motivation. That's being able to look and go, do I do what I say I'm going to do? Am I achieving what I'm hoping to achieve? Am I working smart and not harder? Is it efficient where I'm at? And it's also being able to look and go, you know what, what I've achieved to date in my life, that's on me. If I want more, then I've got to be more. I've got to go for more. I've got to work for more. But the self-improvement is not only isolated to you or your top team. Jacobson's recommendation when working with organisations is that everybody does this together.

7:53The thing is with emotional intelligence, it's a skill, right? I don't believe there's such a thing as an emotionally intelligent person. I think that in every situation, we have the choice of either responding in an emotionally intelligent way or not. And sometimes we get it right and sometimes we don't. So when you're learning emotional intelligence or when you're growing your emotional intelligence, you've got to start from the top because the minute that you start to become aware of emotional intelligence and the impact that you have, you also start to become aware of other people's levels of emotional intelligence.

8:25So for example, there's been some organizations in the past that have really pushed back and went, no, no, no, we just want it for our frontline. We just want it for our frontline leaders and for our customer-facing roles. But what happened then actually backfired on them because once we actually taught the customer-facing roles and the frontline leaders, all of a sudden they were looking at middle management and upper management and going, oh, they are not emotionally intelligent at all because all of a sudden they were made aware of it. So I think that just the ultimate approach is to do it together.

8:58if not it is start at the top and get the first level and get yourself on the first level so get that oxygen mask and get it on you first to make sure you understand because the minute you start discussing it or helping other people to grow they're going to be watching your level as well so it can't be one of those you know do what i say but not what i do kind of measures you've got to walk the talk i suppose there's a level of accountability there too isn't it if you if you're in this together you can almost watch out for each other and be like you know maybe in that meeting that was the approach that you took keeping in mind the framework that we've discussed about emotional intelligence maybe look at doing it different next time so i hear some amazing stories coming out of my clients right because that that's one of the big advantages is that once you start delving into this emotionally intelligent workplace is it's kind of like creating another language so when you've got all of your team talking about this owner face it feel it ask it and drive it I've got feedback back from, there was actually a group I was working with in Singapore.

9:56So they were Asia Pacific region. So we had all of the Asia kind of Pacific areas, leaders from all of them come together and it was at the top level. So CEO level and their direct reports. And when we went into the session, it was actually the CEO that said to me upfront, she said, Amy, it's me. Like I'm not emotionally intelligent. I know I'm the problem, which is great level of awareness. and as we went through the program and she started to grow her emotional intelligence when I caught up with them three months later the example that they gave me straight away is that they were in a meeting with just the CEO and her direct reports were in a meeting and she had defaulted to old behavior right and what she'd done is she totally skipped the field and asked it she'd owned it in her own head she'd faced her emotions and then she'd just turn around to the team and said just drive it just do it so I hadn't consulted them hadn't spoke to them about it hadn't got their opinions, hadn't communicated it.

10:49And in that meeting, one of her direct reports actually turned around to us and said, hang on a minute, I think we've skipped the feel it and ask it part. And being able to have that common language straight away, the CEO turned around and went, oh my goodness, you're right. We absolutely have. Let's take it back. So that benefit of doing it together means it takes that personal side off things. It's not like somebody turning around in that meeting and going, you're not thinking of anybody else right now. Like, You are in your own head, which is quite attacking. But instead you can say, we've missed that.

11:21We've missed those two steps. We've missed the feel at an asker to bring that side of the emotional intelligence in. And how do we bring that emotional intelligence into our processes? So therefore we're getting the right outcomes. Jacobson's years of working with clients has given her a front row seat to the improvements that can be made when leaders are in touch with their emotional intelligence. she shares another example where it can unlock change even years after the damage was done. I was working with an organisation who had a new CEO, new leadership team in and a few years back, I think it was about four or five years back, there had been a bit of a merger that hadn't been done well and there were still people in that organisation that were really struggling because of the way they were treated.

12:04They felt like they were treated like their poor cousins, They felt like the other company came in to rescue them and that they needed to be rescued. And the communication just really wasn't great. And we're talking four to five years down the track, they still were struggling with this. And the reason why they were struggling with it, because it's human nature that when somebody does a wrong bias, we want an apology. We want them to acknowledge it. Now, the CEO and executive group that were there when that happened were no longer there. But the current CEO and executive group actually took the time.

12:37because once we identified and said these people, like they're in victim mentality still because they've been done wrong. People have done them wrong and they want to hear that. They just want to hear somebody acknowledge the fact that it was done wrong and that they weren't poor cousins and that there were some things that were better in their organisation that they should have actually brought into the new organisation. And it wasn't until the CEO and a couple of the executives actually went out there, took the time and stood up in front of all of them and said, you know what, when that merger happened four or five years ago, it wasn't done well.

13:09And obviously we weren't here for it, but on behalf of the organization, we want to apologize because the company that we merged together, it had a great name. Yes, it was in a different place, but it had achieved some amazing things. And there are some of the things that we've lost with that old branding that we would have benefited from today. And they just sat down and had a conversation with people to say, you know what is it do you think that we've lost or what could we be doing better that that previous organization had that we didn't listen to then and you know we're talking 45 minute conversation the difference in those people when they walked out of the room 45 minutes later was unbelievable because all of a sudden for four to five years they just they'd hold held this gripe right that they'd been hard done by and nobody was acknowledging it and all they wanted was just someone to come out and say it was wrong it shouldn't have happened like that and now you've got people that are willing to start fresh they're kind of to look forward rather than back so the ability of any human being at any level to own a mistake or to own something that we haven't done well it doesn't matter how long it's been it doesn't matter if it happened two seconds ago It happened two weeks ago, two years ago, two decades ago.

14:32It doesn't matter. Because when people are latched onto it, they find it really hard to move on until they know that you've truly owned it and you've acknowledged it and you get it. Yeah. And I guess, you know, if we just use that example that you used, you have that conversation and, you know, there's 15 of them and 12 of them are really like, right, fresh start, let's go. And suddenly you've got this three that are still just sitting there stewing. I guess what part of this emotional intelligence conversation has to come down to right I need to take some drastic steps and actually remove people from organizations that's that's something that's quite tricky because you know they're people you may know their family that you know there's this there's layers to this but at what point you know how much of a conversation do you have to have about tough decisions have to be made and you just have to you just have to get your head around it So this is a difficult conversations, right?

15:24And it's one of the number one things we avoid as human beings is I don't think there's anybody out there. And I'd probably be a bit worried if there was anybody out there that enjoyed difficult conversations. So it's something that we do avoid. Now, the example that we just went through, right, I don't know if you noticed, but as I went through the story, the client that I was working with had to literally own it, had to face emotion, had to feel it, ask it and drive it. What happens with some of the people hearing this message, though, is they get stuck in own it and face it and they start looping in their own head and just caught in their emotion, driven by their emotional brain, driven by the victim mentality, and just driven by the fact that they don't want this to be over.

16:02They want to still fight for it. with emotional intelligence there is um there's a skill that i call ask ask tell and with this ask ask tell means that it's the fine balance between being liked and being respected and what it means is that we ask people twice and during those two asks what we're doing is we're hoping that their emotional intelligence will come into play we're hoping that they'll stand up and they'll own it and take it forward but if they don't then that's when the tough conversation needs to happen because that's when we need to flick to tell. So in that instance, if we've got 10 people that are, yes, I'm on board and two people that are like, no, I'm not on board, you've got to work with those people through, I would say, two lots of us to try and get them to own it, to get them to own the reality of the situation that it's in the past, there's nothing we can do about it.

16:52All we can do is apologise, we can draw a line in the sand, we can talk about it, we can talk about the pros and the cons and the hindsight and what should have happened and what could have happened, but at some point, you've got to have that closure and stop looking backwards, start looking forwards. Now, if those two people cannot do that, then that's where the difficult conversation comes in. Now, when we go into these difficult conversations, unfortunately, because it's not something that we like to do either, we tend to get stuck in our own head because we don't know, like these fears come up where we don't know how they're going to respond to this conversation.

17:27We don't know if they're going to get angry. We don't know if they're going to get upset. We don't know if they're going to judge us as a person. We don't know whether, you know, we don't know what they're going to do. So what we tend to do is we end up putting ourselves into an emotional hijack because fear kicks in at our end. And we're worried because it's a fear of the unknown. The fear of the unknown is kicking in. And when we have this fear of the unknown, I like to say when we go into difficult conversations, we over-prepare. We kind of lose that humanistic side of ourselves and we arm ourselves with as much ammunition and armory as possible that when we head into the conversation that we feel protected and safe and it's usually with data and information.

18:09So it's usually, you know, ready to point out every report, every statistic, every reason why this person is in the wrong and we're in the right. And what you end up with is a battleground. You end up with two people in emotional hijacks, two people in fight mode because there's no opportunity to fly it now. You're in it. You're having that conversation. You're in fight mode. And this is where it starts to go wrong. So the best thing we can possibly do when it comes to difficult conversation is being able to actually read the emotion that the person is feeling and lead the conversation based on the emotion rather than the script that you've got there in front of you.

18:48So this is how we bring empathy into difficult conversations. So I'll give you an example Josh if you were meeting with one of these two people and the person was sitting there and they got really upset and they started crying then we look and we go okay this person is upset it's pretty clear what the emotion is they're upset and a lot of the time when people are crying in a workplace it's embarrassment embarrassment tends to kick in so if you continue on with that conversation really we know that the worst thing you can possibly do when somebody is embarrassed is to keep them in that embarrassing situation and continue for them to feel embarrassed or even to grow and talk about that embarrassment.

19:27So if you're going to approach some of these difficult conversations with emotional intelligence, you would look at a situation like that straight away and say, this person is embarrassed. Let's help them to get out of that embarrassment right now. Would you like to go to the bathroom? Would you like to have a drink of water? Whatever it is, Would you like to, you know, halt the conversation here and we pick it up again tomorrow? Whatever it is, that is more important than you ticking a box and making sure that the conversation has been had. Because if you are continuing to drive that conversation, you are doing it purely for your purpose to tick a box and not for the true outcome that you're looking for in that conversation.

20:04Now, by all means, though, if you've got to the point where you've asked us twice in that conversation, you've had those conversations twice and you've done everything you can to support their emotions and they still aren't doing it, then you've got to flick into that tell. Then you've got to go to the facts of the situation and pull the emotions back. All of these conversations that we've been having have been specifically around a work employment setting. But, you know, there's obviously, you know, people's personal lives or private lives that, you know, is sometimes a little bit different. I mean, how many times you see an incredibly successful person who just has a terrible home life and it's just, divorces and terrible relationship with kids and stuff like that.

20:45What is the link, I guess, between a personal life and a work life when it comes to emotional intelligence? It's a human interaction. It doesn't matter what environment you're in, it's a human interaction. Sadly, though, it tends to be the people we love the most that get the worst of us, get the lowest forms of emotional intelligence. And that is generally speaking, because we feel safer in that environment. So therefore we let down our guard a little bit more. So in the workplace, we kind of hold that guard up a little bit because in our mind we think, you know, there's more to potentially lose.

21:20I could lose my job if I don't do this right. When we're around people that we love, we kind of feel like if we get it wrong once, it's not going to be that bad. It's not going to be the end of our marriage or the end of our friendship. So unfortunately our emotional intelligence doesn't do too well or not always but quite commonly is lower outside of the workplace than it is inside of the workplace and that's just because we feel safer in that environment because we're exhausted and we just we just let our emotional brain go fascinating though Josh still to this day one of the most amazing emails that I got off an old client is this was four years after this client sat in one of my programs.

22:02It was just a generic program that I did for the place that he worked at the time. And four years later, I got an email to say that he had tried marriage counselor after marriage counselor after marriage counselor, and they could not get any help with their marriage. And he said, I don't know why I just pulled out your workbook from four years ago and he said it was just some of the basic emotional intelligence that has actually helped us through and now our marriage is okay. It's understanding, it's being able to take that ownership and that responsibility, know that I'm playing a role in this as well.

22:39What role am I playing? How are we speaking to each other? How do we get that logical brain working with our emotional brain rather than one over the other? As with everything in business, we need a way to measure the success of the changes we seek to make. Jacobson breaks this down into tracking your own mindset and that of your workplace environment, but more importantly, keeping an end goal in mind. You know, from a personal point of view, I think if you're starting to work on your own emotional intelligence, the first thing I would challenge you to do is to understand what is your definition of success.

23:12So in your mind, at what point in your life will you reach the point where you say, I am successful. Because that I am successful is a driver for the decisions that we're making. And if the measure of success that we have around ourselves is materialistic, then we're going to struggle to ever reach the enoughness because we will always just move the goalposts. Once you've got people in a group, in a workplace, you're looking at the measure of your culture, right? You're looking at the measure of your psychological safety in there. You're looking at the measure of whether people actually want to come to work or not.

23:45You're looking at the noise factor. I mean, you can tell straight away when you walk into a workplace based on the noise levels and the actual mood and temperature in there of whether that workplace is a good place to work or not. I always say too, like if you can look around your workplace, when you have people who are working on their emotional intelligence, it's a difference of walking into a workplace, looking around and seeing a bunch of people who have to be there as opposed to a bunch of people who have chosen to be there. That is the difference between an emotionally intelligent workplace and one that maybe isn't emotionally intelligent.

24:22That's what you're aiming for. Jacobson's final words are a poignant reminder to never lose sight of the bigger picture. I think we are in such a rush these days and we are so driven by external measures that aren't necessarily, they're not necessarily the right things for us. I would say to people, if you could pause in all aspects of your life, if you can pause in communication. So before you open your mouth to say something in response to somebody, pause, take three breaths in, just count to three. Allow time for your logical brain to kick in past your emotional brain. If you can pause in your work life and know that work is a part of life, you're never going to get a work-life balance because life is life.

25:08Work just happens to be a part of it. So how can you hit the pause button and get that balance right? How can you hit the pause button on your expectations of yourself and your need to have more? How can you hit the pause button on your expectations of the people around you? We are just in such a rush to achieve the next person we're going to become or the next thing we're going to do that we're actually not living that well as the people that we actually are. So get to know yourself. Understand what your wiring is, understanding what's driving you and start living and actually being that person and look to grow that person rather than change that person.

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