Victoria Price meets Imran Hakim

0:08Hello and welcome to the Business Leader Podcast. I'm Graeme Ruddick, the Editor-in-Chief of Business Leader and the regular host of the Business Leader Podcast. I'm delighted to introduce you to the fourth episode in a series of interviews with entrepreneurs around the UK by Victoria Price. Victoria is head of private capital at Alvarez & Marcel, the consultancy firm in the UK, and she spent over 20 years in professional services in a collection of senior roles. In this episode, Victoria speaks to Imran Hakim. Imran is a serial entrepreneur and the chief executive of the Hakim Group, a collection of independent opticians across the UK.

0:45In this episode, we'll hear the story behind Hakim Group, Imran's success on Dragon's Den, and the challenge of being a parent and a chief executive.

0:58so just bring to life for people that are listening what is Hakeem Group how big have you managed to grow it over the last five years and and I guess what's going to come next Hakeem Group is a family of independent opticians and audiologists across UK and Ireland and five years ago we were a hundred practices looking to bring on our first investment partner bang in the middle of covid yeah fast forward five years we are now passing 500 locations with a clear plan vision 2030 oh my gosh we got a new plan we've got a new plan it's already been communicated with our teams and we'll be very shortly making some announcements around how we are looking to bring that plan to life now so the reason that Hakeem Group isn't kind of a household name with 500 stores is because all of these businesses they retain their independence they often keep the same teams in them and so you really still have that kind of much loved community feel and loyalty to these opticians but really what you're doing is helping them have all of that kind of back office and bring to them the things that are really quite difficult to keep on top of so that's absolutely massive one of the things that I think people are always fascinated with is like there's so many people that run their own businesses and you know perfect example is these opticians that have got one or maybe two practices locally but how do you get to 500 like just talk us through how how that was achieved boy that that's a a 20-year journey summarized in a in a few minutes but if I if I just talk about the model that we have, because I think for anybody who's looking to scale up, you've got to have a model that can scale.

2:53And the platform that we've created allows entrepreneurial clinicians who want to continue running a business with full independence and autonomy, but with the support of a back office infrastructure, almost like a hybrid approach. I think that model has allowed us to really scale rapidly. And then by executing and delivering on the promises we make to our entrepreneurial partners in all these locations, that's what allows you to then build the momentum and continue growing at the rate that we are doing. I could take you all the way back and I'm sure you will take us all the way back and start off with the first location I ever started.

3:40But I don't think I ever started to build a large group of opticians. And that was going to be my question. It's like sat here now with the benefit of hindsight, I would call what you've done, it's almost like a bit of a twist on a buy and build because you're not kind of buying and just taking over and subsuming them into your business. You're going into partnership. And so it's almost like a hybrid between a buy and build and a bit of a franchise model in the way that you're doing things. Looking back now, it's almost like, oh, yeah, OK, I can see it. I get it. But when you were first setting out, you've kind of half answered the question, which is you didn't really go into it thinking this is going to become massive.

4:22So when was like the light bulb moment that you thought, I can see a path forward here. I can see how we can really grow. So I think I'm going to be a bunch of cliches today. I can already see that. But the point that you made there, when I started with one, you can't connect things going forward. Steve Jobs always says you can only connect the dots looking backwards. And now when I look at the model and the journey we've been on, there are elements of it that feel pretty obvious, but it wasn't obvious until it was. at the time and then I had another cliche there as well and it's gone but but if I if I think about the journey that we've been on I've got it I've got to start with that first practice so I started this first practice and it's the only one that I started from scratch I just remembered that other other cliche the other cliche um if you want to go fast you go alone yeah if you want to go far you go with a bunch of people and i and i think our partnership model that we have for the business it really leans into the latter but if you want to go far you you want to scale up you can't do it on your own you've got to have a whole bunch of people and our business model it is a twist on on your classic sort of buy and build consolidation that you'd see because it harnesses and enables the entrepreneurial spirit that exists within our partners.

5:45And it's almost like an entrepreneurial ecosystem that we've built. And our job is to enable it and then help them achieve all their aspirations. And in doing so, that symbiotic relationship means that we achieve a lot together. But I didn't know any of this when I started off. It's only with hindsight and connecting the dots, you can see how those jigsaw pieces fit together. Yeah, and I'm going to pause and mention your wife because people say to me all the time, who inspires you? And I think that they're always expecting me to name a celebrity or somebody that's really famous, really high profile.

6:19The truth is people that inspire me are the women who are just really accomplished in everything that they do, whether it's kind of looking after the kids and building a home and family or whether it's what they do professionally. And that's your wife. You know, she's she's incredible. she's also a massive support to you as well because I see that kind of partnership between the two of you so how much of a strength do you feel like it is to have that partner that just really gets it and is like she's your number one fan she'll tell you if you're doing something wrong but she is your number one fan yeah so today if I ever needed a reminder this morning was a reminder of who really does the hard work in our family so Sabina who is a fantastic dentist she's on a course today and so I've had all five girls to get ready first thing in the morning get the uniforms on get them breakfast get the hair brush which was such a poor attempt I'm impressed with the hair well done you and then get them to three different locations for school in the morning and I felt like I'd done a full day's work before I started the journey into the office yeah and the thing is for for sabina that that's just a tick box exercise first thing in the morning that's just normal that's every day and that's before you then have the deadlines in between picking up the girls after school class bedtime and bath time routine it's it's a it's not one person's job it's about three or four people would struggle to do it and i think when you think you're working hard you just take a look to your right and you see the sacrifice the effort the selflessness and i think that's what inspires you that's what makes you um come home when you're knackered open the door and then just forget about it all because you realize that actually um i've definitely got the easier job of the two of us and she is she she's a real inspiration both for myself and for our girls yeah um who who see that that work ethic and that sort of constant uh putting yourself second in in every scenario and always being there no matter what whether you've got a headache whether you're tired it doesn't matter uh everybody else comes first and that that that um it takes a special person to do that and i couldn't do my job for sure and everybody around me knows this i couldn't do my job if if she wasn't there she's there organizing you making sure everything's in the right place isn't she absolutely but I guess you know when I see you in in action and you know one of the things that I really admire about you is you're one of the few people that I work with where I see you being a father just in kind of interacting with you professionally so you know we've had meetings where you've been on the school run we've had meetings where you can hear the girls kind of playing and doing whatever they're doing in in the background my all-time favorite so everybody that knows I love babies even you know I love babies and I remember you brought one of your daughters to a work lunch that I was hosting and so I managed to bounce around my hip for the whole time that I was I was kind of presenting but that's quite rare that's quite rare to have men who are leading really big businesses but actually are really open and role modeling the fact that you are a father as well and that's a massive part of your day job and your life is that something that you've kind of like actively thought I want to do this differently and I want to be visible for for being a dad or is it just like that that's just the way it is I think there's two parts to that the first part is absolutely it's something that you have to be consciously aware of I I have many friends who have been on the entrepreneurial journey who've all got families and you you have conversations with them where they tell you about the things that they would do differently if they had to go back So I've taken a little bit from some of those journeys that people have shared with me.

10:26And I certainly don't want to, you know, 10 years, 20 years, when the kids are a lot older, feel like I missed out on them growing up. So I think that's one thing that you have to consciously be aware of. But it is very easy when you're doing the job that I'm doing to put that second. Forget about it. There's always an excuse. There's always something that's happening at work that is an excuse to not be there. And the two parts there is one, Sabina won't let me forget. And that will be a constant reminder when there's that extra meeting that you could do or that extra call that you can put in.

11:02And the reality is the job that I do often, business owners want to talk to you outside of business owners because they're busy running the business during the day. So it's tough juggling that, but it's something that Sabine has really done very well in making sure that I don't forget that I'm a dad as well as the CEO of the business. And the other part of that is really making sure that everybody's got a different view on how you balance life and work. Everybody talks about work-life balance. I just don't think that's a thing. I think it's life. And the one thing you always see at any of our work events is the kids and Sabina aren't far away because it's our life together.

11:49My work is part of our life together. And I would never want to live or build a business where you've got work and there's a complete demarcation between that and your home life. I think that might feel really odd to some people. But for me, that's my reality. That's my normal. And the thing is, it's like when you said, is it OK if, you know, I bring my wife and the newborn? It's like, yeah, of course it is. And people are so accepting, actually, of course, we'd love to meet them. We'd love for them to be a part of it. But I think not so many people actually ask and think about how to do things a bit differently.

12:29So, you know, all credit to you for the fact that you just do it in the way that works for your family. I think the other thing I would just add is that's also become a big part of the DNA within our business and our culture within the business. It almost gives the people you work with permission that that is OK. Everybody's got a life outside of work as well. And you want to make sure that what you try and do in terms of your own family surroundings, you're trying to create the same sort of environment for those that work with you as well. So I do think family figures very high right across the culture within our business.

13:07Yeah. Now, I'm 100 % sure that even though I sent you some of them, you will not have found time to listen to the previous podcasts that we've done. So you're going to be completely blindsided by the fact that I always try and have a little bit of fun with guests and ask them some quick questions that they're not expecting. So your first one is what is your worst habit, Imran? um i've got so many my worst habit or one of my worst habits is that i'm always late always late what did you text me today i'm going to be five minutes late but then i was more than five minutes what did i text you straight back you'd already told everybody i was told everybody yeah so i i am i am it's uh perpetually late um how likely am i to get response from you if i send you an email So this is one thing that Sabina, much to her dismay, will tell you, you will get a response very, very sharp.

14:08And it's something that I, despite the fact that we're growing at pace, I've tried to make sure I continue to do it. It becomes harder and harder as you grow. But I think being in communication with people when they're trying to, it doesn't matter who they are and what it is. I think it's a sign of courtesy. And so, yeah, you'll definitely get hold of me on email. Yeah. And my final question, what's the most ridiculous business idea that you've seriously considered pursuing? So my first answer to that is no business idea is a ridiculous idea because they're all lessons. If you don't quite get it right, you're going to learn something from it.

14:51And trust me, I've had a lot of lessons over the years. But I have done rabbit hutches and chicken coops. Have you? I didn't know that. I have done rabbit hutches and chicken coops. And actually, it wasn't... I need a chicken coop, actually. Exactly. So where are you going to go? You're going to go online and you're going to buy something. I want one that comes that's ready made that I don't have to put together. I don't have the skills. So here's the problem, right? When you sell something online, most of the time people will want the promise of, If it's not right, I'm going to send it back. So the problem with having a chicken coop business is people will take it and then you're going to be left with a whole bunch of returns and a load of chicken coops back in storage that you can't do anything with.

15:32And so, yeah, it's a heavy storage business if you don't have another outlet for that. So, yeah, I think that definitely wasn't my calling in life. Yeah. Oh, that's brilliant. I'm so glad that I asked you that question. what I love about you and I think it just comes across is you you are perpetually enthusiastic about everything that you do you just bring so much energy to the table and you're just so relaxed and comfortable doing it but I am going to let you now go back to the beginning of your story because I've heard you talk about you know being a 16 year old you grew up in Bolton and you felt like the two viable career options that were on the table for you was either to go into some sort of fast food establishment or go and work in a supermarket so how did you come to the conclusion that there was so much more out there for you well i have to tell you how that came out so so working class family background from bolton and the first job at 16 was at mcdonald's yeah first day boss takes me aside and says son if you work really hard flipping burgers then one day you can have my job and after three days he sacked me and uh his his famous words in my that still ring in my ear were you're a kid from bolton if you think you know about business then you're dreaming and i and i left there and i was really worried because i thought what am i going to say to my dad yeah and and your grandma as well my grandma my grandma at that point uh we didn't have a home We were living, myself, mum and dad, my brothers and sisters, so five of us, and my grandma.

17:09We lived with my grandma in her two-bedroom bungalow. It was the happiest days. What we didn't have in sort of material terms, we more than had in terms of just love and a sort of family unit. And so being the eldest in the family, I had to set a good example for my brothers and sisters. Futures in your hands, Inran. And here I was, the very first job that I'd taken on and I lasted three days. So I then managed to land a job at the local supermarket and it got worse. I lasted a day. What did you do? I literally, on the first day in the supermarket, what you had to do was stand at the checkout behind the person who was doing the checkout and watch how you scanned a barcode.

17:57Right. and after like the thousandth time of seeing somebody scan a barcode and being stood on your feet all day and I remember it was a long summer's day I fainted because it was so mind numbingly boring and and so I lasted a day and um I just I mean how hard is it I'm feeling like watch it once you've got the hang of it you're a fast learner you get the hang of it so so I think It wasn't mentally stimulating. Yeah. And I knew that it wasn't what I was going to do. So I went back. They wouldn't be able to sack you for that now. You'd have to go on some sort of well-being program to make sure that they were looking after you.

18:35But I remember something that happened when I went back home. I went back home and I reluctantly told my father what had happened. And I was getting ready to be told off. And he didn't say a word. And that was one thing about my father that there was such power in his silences. and I remember a day or two later he gave me a little plaque and this plaque there's a similar one on the door in our boardroom if you come to our offices as a reminder and it read something like if you think you are beaten you are if you think you dare not you don't if you want to win but think you can't it's almost certain you won't if you think you lose your lost for out in the world we find success begins with a fellow's will it's all in the state of mind and and here i was really worried about what my dad would say and and and when i look back it was such an inspiring way of saying to me don't worry yeah if this wasn't it you'll find your thing in life you'll you'll just don't don't lose the mindset that says you're going to try because it all begins with the way you think and I think it's it's such a powerful message that he left me with at a time when I was actually worried that he would tell me off yeah and all that he was disappointed I can see obviously I mean you can remember it word for word and it's literally if you come to our offices you'll see it on on on one of the doors into one of the meeting rooms because it's such a powerful reminder that your mindset is everything yeah you could try nine things but it's the tenth thing that will be your breakthrough.

20:20And you take it to heart because you then don't go back for a third attempt at one of these jobs but you actually set up your own computer business which kind of feels like a bit of a kind of enter stage left didn't see that coming type of thing so so how did that come about? It was it was around the time when computers was just starting off I remember it was 386s and 486s before you had the Pentiums and my father bought me a computer and I started playing around with it and people in the local community didn't have computers at this point it was the best thing he ever did because I started experimenting I started to learn how to operate these things and then one of the other fathers in the local community said I want to get one for my son and And I'd already had my eye on the next model up and it was£400.

21:13And I think my dad had bought this one for about£350. And so when he said, look, can I take this one and you get yourself another one? I said, yes, absolutely. You can have it for£400. I already knew what I wanted to buy. And that's how it started. So I then repeated that same cycle a few times and then word got round. And who are your customers? Yeah, who are your customers? So there were friends of my dad's, people in the local community. And then that sort of, I was 16, 17. So that then turned into school teachers, college teachers, people in the college where I was studying my A-levels. And I was starting to run a nice little business, learning how to build a customer base, how to buy and sell, and some of the basic skills that you need in business.

22:01That's how that happened. That's how that ended up. And then when I went to university, that opened up a whole new network of areas where friends went off to university. Just a bigger market. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But let's pause on university for a minute because you've now got this business. The cash is starting to come in and you quite like that, don't you? But it's your dad that steps in again and he says, no, Imran, you're going to university. You get that education. Nobody can take that away from you. So you go to study optometry and vision science. So just kind of tell me at the time, were you really kind of open to listening to your dad's advice or were you feeling a bit frustrated that you felt like you had this great business idea that was kind of you're off to the races and did it feel like it was slowing you down a bit?

22:46It's exactly as you said that I wanted to crack on and get a shop, go buy some computers and start retailing. And my father said that you've got your whole life ahead of you to run a business, but nobody can take an education away from you. So it was really his encouragement and guidance that meant that I went to university, obviously still selling computers and doing that in the background whilst I was at university. But that meant that I now knew I still wanted to run a business and had the optometry degree alongside that that ran in parallel. And therefore coming out of university, I couldn't wait to get started with my first practice.

23:29And you do. So you leave university in 2002 and immediately you set up your first practice. So, you know, did it go as you expected? What was that first 12 months like? So I came out of university, again, didn't have the capital to set up. So I asked my father for a£2 ,000 loan to get started, which he didn't have. And he had to borrow off a friend of his. and so I took the£2 ,000 and I remember him giving me the money. I was sat on my mum's couch and he said, son, I know you won't let me down. And so it was, I had six months to pay him back in. I started the work on this first practice and you had the opticians, a Chinese shop that had shut down, a Chinese takeaway and then next door to that, there was another unit going, which I also took because it was the same landlord.

24:21I started selling computers there And literally, I'd see a patient. My first employee was my sister. So she was on reception. I'd run around the back. I'd sell a few computers. And then when she rung me to say, your next patient's here, I'd run around the back again and take the next patient through. And that was really happy memories, but really learning how to start from nothing. And what's making the money here? Is it the computer business? Oh, it's the computer business. The computer business is making money. Whereas the optical business, I learned some very important lessons that it's very hard starting from scratch to build up a customer base.

25:01And truth be told, that very first practice, which is the only practice that had Hakeem above the door in the first year, I think we did about 43 ,000 pounds of turnover and breakeven was much higher than that. And then I had the opportunity to buy a small going concern in a neighbouring town where the owner, his father had owned this practice before him. It still had his father's name above the door, which he really wanted to protect. Clearly, the patients in the local community, they'd become friends because they'd been coming for decades. And the staff in the practice had become family. and he wanted to make sure that whoever came in really protected that that heritage so i came in i i bought the practice and then within six months i'd really worked hard to re-energize it bring some fresh ideas to the table and really increase the profitability of of that a lot faster than what i'd started from scratch six months before and so i'd repeated that same thing again 12 months later and that's where the first few practices started and it was a lot of peddling a lot of running around but juggling three or four practices in those first few years yeah and so what you're saying is that the one Hakeem Opticians that wasn't your biggest success was it it definitely wasn't and uh yeah the lesson there and like I've been talking about this so much recently is is how do you have the right mindset about what things people could say it was a failure they could say, you know, it's a kind of a setback.

26:41I'm not going to go on and do more because it didn't work out. Whereas your mindset is that's taught me loads. I'm sure you've learned loads about customer service. You've learned lots about the product. You've learned lots about, you know, all of those positive things. But you've also learned some things not to do and how to do it differently. Is that just a mindset that you've always had, that you're a problem solver, as opposed to seeing things in a black and white, that's successful, that's not? So I think, A, it's a mindset. I think it goes back to that plaque on the wall from my late father.

27:14But I also think it's something that runs right through our business and all the businesses that I look at, which are fast paced, growing, and the entrepreneurs at the helm of those businesses, they're all risk takers and they're not scared of getting it wrong. And they will maintain that mindset. I mean, I think trying lots of experiments, trying things that you have no idea whether it's going to work and most likely it won't, but a few things will. I think that that's the hallmark of a business that's going places. I think it's those businesses that stay within their comfort zone. They repeat play patterns that they know will work because they've seen them before.

27:53That's fine. But I think that's definitely not who we are. And I think that's a mindset. that's a something that you encourage and we certainly encourage within our business we encourage people to take some risks to try things and not to be disheartened when it doesn't quite go to plan yeah because it's those moments in which you grow and you learn and you stretch yourself yeah so so i do think that a big element of that it's an attitude it's a mindset so you're now in your still early 20s feels like you've done a lot you've got a few stores at this point because you've acquired some. You've got the whole kind of Fawlty Towers vibe going on, kind of dashing between your computer business and your optician store.

28:37So then explain to me, how do you end up getting into Thai boxing, inventing the iTeddy and pitching on Dragon's Den? So I had half a dozen practices at mid-twenties and I was a little bit bored because I've always been challenge driven. So I decided I'd take on the... I was really into my sports at the time. I was playing football. I was into my fitness and kickboxing. So I decided I didn't have anything else that I needed for. I had a small team of the four of us who are still there within the business today. And between us, we were acting like a mini head office looking after these half-a-dusen practices.

29:18So I decided I'd have a three-month sabbatical. I'd go to Thailand to pursue my passion at the time in kickboxing. Lived in Bangkok, trained with the Thai fighters there who are hard as nails. And so it was very early morning starts, late finishes, lots of exercise, lots of discipline. And I had one amateur fight in month three. And I remember fighting this skinny Japanese dude for three rounds and retiring undefeated. So that was my journey. But what I did learn is Thai boxing wasn't my calling in life. And so then I came back and again, I was still looking for a challenge. A couple of months later, having come back from Thailand, that's when I was debating what would be a great gift for my niece when she turned one between myself and Zubi, my younger brother.

30:17I love that the two of you were thinking about this. I just I've never ever met another man that sat there thinking what am I going to get my niece for a present so you get points that in my book. She was six months old and genuinely I remember being where exactly where I was sat and it was in a family gathering and we were just debating what would be a great gift for her. And so I came up with this idea of a teddy bear with a media player and it was around the time when everything was becoming digital. You had digital cameras. You didn't quite have an iPhone yet, but you did have iPods. And so I thought, how about combining some of this digital technology that we can see all around us with a more traditional play pattern, like playing with a teddy bear that had been around for over 100 years?

31:01And I said, what about an iTeddy? And so my younger brother says, so what does one of them look like and what does it do? So I remember taking one of my niece's sort of bears and then taking an MP3 player, ripping it apart and then putting it back together again, creating this monstrosity. Exactly that. But when I looked at it, what I thought is actually this has probably got some legs. And if we if we designed it properly and that was it. So off I went, went to China to design and manufacture a bear with a media player. And it was actually a pretty complex product to develop because it's a kid's product.

31:42And there are some really stringent safety regulations you have to overcome. Then you're bringing it in from China. Flash memory was a commodity. So you had to navigate pricing. And then you had to go and license content from the likes of BBC and Disney, you know, Fifi and the Flower Tots, Thomas the Tank Engine, content like this that children would want to listen to. And then bring the whole thing together in a format that would be easy for parents and kids to use. So that was really tricky. I remember one of my friends saying to me, you just stuck a radio in a teddy bear. And that definitely wasn't it.

32:18And you were like, no, I didn't. It was a lot harder than that. It was definitely a lot harder than that. So having done that, I ended up, long story short, at a business networking event. And the BBC cameras were there. And this was right at the beginning before people knew what Dragon's Den was. so they they were looking for people just to talk about any ideas they had and i i was there with one of my friends who was trying to progress a patent on a product he'd come up with and he didn't want to talk about it and he said why don't you talk about that bear that you're you're developing so i did i got in front of the camera and five minutes later they said when you've got a product would you would you come on dragon's den i didn't know what dragon's den was so i ended up in front of the dragons and a life-sized bear that zoo bear was in at the time and we pitched our product and peter jones and the upper fetus loved it and they said right let's let's let's do this and 18 months later we were selling in 45 countries around the world i mean it became the best-selling toy of that christmas was the second best-selling toy in argos behind transformers that year wow and then you won toy inventor of the year that that was a real is that your proudest title i mean i never thought that uh i'd ever it's so random as an optometrist i never thought i'd win an award for being a toy inventor but i remember going to the nuremberg toy fair which is almost like the oscars in the toy world and it's a very formal event and you turn up and you've got all these dignitaries and and the and the german prime minister there and it's a really formal thing everybody's in their black ties and then four of us turned up in our hoodies not really knowing what to expect so it was a quite a surreal moment when in the top three it was myself and the other two were from mattel and hasbro which are yeah global names and it just reinforced that idea for me that doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, you know, if you've got an idea and you believe in it and you build up some momentum, who knows where that ends up?

34:31Where that idea could take you. I guess the thing that really fascinates me, I want to ask you is even just in normal conversation chatting to you, you have so many ideas and you're always seeking an opinion and bouncing things off people. Do you still have those dreams and those ideas for new businesses and new ventures or now the Hakeem Group's got so big is it kind of like all of your energy and your creative thinking is is taking up on what's next for that business I think it's those new ideas that are the best bits yeah uh and I and I think I've always had a curious mind and I'm always asking questions that's why I got sacked from the first job because I thought that why are we doing things this way I mean now in hindsight I understand that when you're a large business you have to have standardization but in my head i've always questioned sort of why do we were you trying to teach ronald a better way to flip burgers and i know that i shouldn't have really gone down that route but but having a curious mind asking questions could we do it in a smarter way and lean away a greener way a more efficient way i i think not all of those things will end up in the next big thing but i think maintaining the habit that asks those questions it's what i encourage my girls to do is to ask questions is to be curious and who knows what you get excited about as you find out more about uh things that and problems that need to be solved and i think it's curious minds that solve some of the biggest problems that we have on the planet.

36:06I love that. So maintaining the habit of being curious and I think if you breed that in the girls then they're set up for really good things. So I have to ask you've got 500 opticians now you've got five girls which is harder looking after the five girls or running those 500 stores? I mean it's hands down. You know, running practices it's people, systems, processes. Does it get easier the more you do it with the stores? Yeah, but with girls Oh, they're all so different. I mean, there's a dollop of crazy. There's a little bit of empathy. Some are more arty than others. You have a real mixture. And that's the beauty of having five daughters.

36:50I think it's such a blessing. And every day is a different challenge with them. And every day is totally unexpected. There is no way. I kind of know when I get up in the morning, the nature of what the challenges at work are going to be. I have no idea from one day to the next what challenges five girls are going to bring. And I think I've done the maths. At one point, I think I'm going to have five teenage girls in the house. And that fills me with dread. I am telling you now, you know, I've got two boys and one girl. Girls are drama. They think they're right all the time. You are going to have your hands full.

37:28But don't worry, I'll be on hand for babysitting. they already love you I love them too so I guess my final question is the one that I ask all of my guests and people are listening to this because they're growing businesses themselves maybe they've got some good ideas but they don't quite know how to make the dream a reality so what's the one piece of advice that you would give to people setting off on the journey? I'm not going to give you one I'm going to give you five one for each one of my girls and it's it's often what i say that if i could go back and speak to my 18 year old self and have a coffee what would i say to myself and these are the lessons from a lot of things that we've discussed that come to mind and the first thing remember that uh boss that i had at mcdonald's uh keep dreaming yeah dream often and dream big that would be the the first thing i'd say and it's what i what I constantly I did listen to the podcast that you sent me and I heard Tom and it was a theme that was in Tom's podcast as well about you know dreaming and believing in yourself and yeah and doing that often and not putting a ceiling on it either you know dreaming big the second thing I'd say would be never fear failure so going back to that first opticians Hakeem opticians I could think that in some ways you could say that I never got it to profitability but I learned so much that has formed the bedrock of what I've then gone on to do in business so never fear failure there is important lessons in every setback and the third thing would be anybody can do it that's the iTeddy journey yeah where I'm just a kid from Bolton I'm not a toy inventor but picking up an award against some of the biggest brands on the planet it just reinforces that belief that you don't have to come from a certain place or wear a suit or you be you and just have that enthusiasm that excitement that energy that sense of purpose and follow that dream that you've dreamt and who knows where you can end up certainly that i teddy journey reinforced that for me surround yourself with positive people oh my god if there's one thing i want to say to my girls is look you'll find people in life who'll be naysayers and negative and mood hoovers cross the road walk the other side and when you find somebody who's positive who brings the best out of you who who lifts you to higher uh a higher state give them a tight hug and don't let go yeah that's who you want to keep as your tribe they'll bring the best out because even now when the girls come home They'll talk to me about the kid who wasn't that nice to them.

40:15And I always try and ask them about, but who was? Who was it? Because that's who you want to gravitate towards. Like, I love going into rooms where you've got positive people and they give you that energy that really drives you forward. And the final thing I'd say is take action. Whether it's your... So many people have ideas, but they'll never try or take it any further than just an idea on a paper or something. They talk to somebody over a coffee and that's where it ends. So many times, if I look at some of the journeys I've been on, I could never have imagined where they've ended up. But they all started with just taking one step, getting a bit of encouragement from what you find after that one step, taking a couple more steps.

41:05and before you know it, you've got momentum. And momentum is very powerful. Once you get momentum, nothing can stop you. So I'd say just take action. Take that first step if there's something that you're passionate about, but you're not sure where it's going to take you. Because at worst, you learn something. I love it. So there are five rules to live by for definite. Thank you so much for giving up your time to join us for the podcast. I can't give you a bigger compliment than to say that you are somebody that I always want to have in my tribe because your energy is so positive. You're so grounded.

41:39You work incredibly hard, but you make it look effortless. And I think your family values just sing through in everything that you do. You talk about dreaming. You definitely dream big. And I hope you never, ever stop doing that because it's an inspiration. And it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Well, it's been a pleasure to be here, Victoria.

42:03A thanks to Imran Hakim and Victoria Price for that fascinating interview. You've been listening to The Business Leader Podcast. I'm Graham Ruddick. Our producer is Anushka Tate. If you enjoyed this episode, then please subscribe to The Business Leader Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.