Decoding Team Dysfunction and Navigating Conflict

0:00It's one of the things that we do in the scalable operating system that we walk our clients through. it culminates in what we call a clarity day. And the clarity day is where you're supposed to get clear on what's your three-year target. So what are your goals? What's your company purpose? What are your core values? What are your strategic anchors? And one of the things that we'll say is, yeah, if you can do one of these team building bonding exercises, this is a great time to do it. We don't really care which one you do, though. We provide a list of ones that you could do. all the stuff from the table group definitely are on that list for just that reason.

0:39It provides that vocabulary. And so now the next time somebody is kind of a jerk and they totally throw down your idea, they're not being a jerk. They're just being hyperlogical.

0:52Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Business Lunch with your hosts, Ryan Dice and me, Roland Frazier. Wonderful to see you all here again, even though we can't actually see you. But Ryan, I can see you. How are you today? I'm doing really great. I can feel their presence. And I think that's what matters. Yeah, I get it too. Even though they're not actually there as we record this. No, but the vibe is there. The aura is there. And I think that that's what matters the most. I like it. I like it. Yeah. How about you? What's new with you? You do anything fun? It has been a nonstop. we did our big event followed by a trip to Las Vegas for a potential sale followed by a facilitation of a five dysfunctions of a team thing followed by a challenge followed by a trip to London.

1:43It's, it's been kind of crazy. Can you talk about the, you can't talk about the, the potential sale thing yet, can you? I can't yet. No, not yet. I mean, cause that's a, that'll be fun. Cause that, it's a potential IPO deal. So that's, that's a, I think that's part of the not being able to talk about it. We're about 12 months away from that thing. Do they frown upon talking about public offerings before they've technically gone public? Is that something that they frown upon at the SEC? They can, potentially. But to me, it's best to say nothing and not risk getting anybody mad at me in any way.

2:20Yeah, that's probably a good call. That is probably a very, very good call. And then what was the other thing? So you facilitated, I don't think of you as necessarily being, and I don't mean this like as an insult, it's just, it's a neutral statement. I don't think of you as necessarily going in and facilitating like a team building camaraderie kind of thing. So you went in and facilitated Patrick Lencioni, who, I love the book, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. So you went in there and just, and facilitated this for one of the portfolio companies? Yeah, it was, they just, you know, and I didn't really think about it till they asked, but and gave the reasons but I have, if you think about it, we've facilitated together, I don't know, hundreds of meetings and masterminds.

3:07And then I've done installations of operating systems and things like that, for portfolio companies. And they were just like, we'd, you know, we'd like you to do it, you kind of have, you know, more experience than anybody else, and you're good at it. So would you do it? I was like, sure. So I bought the, I bought the book again, uh, re-listened to it, the audio three or four times. There's a, there's a field guide, I think to, to it or something like that. That's another book that was the audio book, which I listened to a couple of times. And then I bought the facilitators manual online from Amazon, which is a physical notebook and went through that.

3:46And, um, and we took the assessments and a personality test that Myers personality types. And it was actually really great. It was a, I had a lot of fun doing it. And, uh, and the whole team, we all got a lot out of it, um, because everybody participated very well. So it was, it was actually really cool. I, it's not something I would want to do like for a living, but to do it for a portfolio company, I think it could be very, very helpful. And, um, and you know, it was fun for me because I always learn, love learning new things. Have you ever done anything like that? Yeah. Well, I think we do those.

4:19Yeah. And, and people always ask like, which, which one do you think is the best? And we've done just about all of them at different times. And I think that they're all, I think they're all really good. And I almost don't think it matters that much which one you do. I think the key is just as a leadership team, you're talking about stuff. You know, it's just so important just to be there together, talking about each other and personalities. And what all these things do is they give you a vocabulary. And they give you a safe place to essentially call each other out about things, to call yourself out about things.

4:54And I just think that's really, really good for teams. So that's cool. So for those, so you would recommend it for those leadership teams who are maybe looking for kind of, they're going to go and do an offsite, you'd say, check out the five dysfunctions of a team? I would. Yeah. And the way that I used it was, I, um, I, we did the personality tests. So, um, our CFO actually did a cool, a cool adaptation of that where, um, the, the 16 personality tests is put you into one of 16 categories. And then I forget how many different things that it, you know, it showed you, let's say it was 10. Um, then it would basically say like, you know, you're a, a feeling person or a logical person.

5:41And what he did was the thing basically has a center point and then says on the scale of feeling to logic, you're 90, you know, as far away from the center as 90 towards feeling or as far away from the center on the opposite side as 90 on logic. And so what the CFO did was he said, let's take our results. And he printed them out for everybody. And then we went into a room where he had like put football field like things with a thing in the middle and then 10, 20, 30, 40, you know, like the yard lines and each person on the team stood on where they were. So you could see like, you know, one logic person is here and the feeling people are way down there.

6:23And it's like, you know, so how do we communicate with each other knowing that it was, it was kind of cool to have it be a real-time player live version of that data coming to life. I thought that was really cool. Yeah, it's one of the things that we do in the scalable operating system that we walk our clients through. It culminates in what we call a clarity day. And the clarity day is where you're supposed to get clear on what's your three-year target. So what are your goals? What's your company purpose? What are your core values? What are your strategic anchors? And one of the things that we'll say is, yeah, if you can do one of these team building bonding exercises, you know, this is a great time to do it.

7:07We don't really care which one you do though. We provide a list of ones that you could do. All the stuff from the table group definitely are on that list for just that reason. It provides that vocabulary. And so now the next time somebody's kind of a jerk and they totally throw down your idea, they're not being a jerk. They're just being hyperlogical. And the next time that other person, you know, just even though you're showing it to them in black and white and they still just won't agree to it, they're not, you know, being a wimp about it. They're just maybe, you know, feeling it out a little bit more than you are.

7:37And so, yeah, I think that stuff is great. The other thing that I liked was I used the assessment so everybody can take an online assessment and then you can get the data of how many people felt like, for example, that trust was an issue. And if like, let's say there were nine people in this group, let's say that, um, there were, there were, um, a couple where seven people were on, like, you know, this thing is an issue in our company. Um, and so we talked about, you know, Hey, seven of us said independently, this is an issue. Let's talk through these big things and see how we can resolve them.

8:18And then the other one that was entertaining was that it does the difference spread. So like, um, one of the things was in communication style and, uh, the thing, the statement was, um, it's acceptable to raise your voice during a difficult discussion. I think that was it. And we had nine people, three people said, never, absolutely unacceptable. Three people said tolerable. And three people said, yeah, that's fine. It was like, okay, so we got like very, very, we need to talk about this. So it was then coming to agreement on those things where we were, you know, several people thought one way and several another, because obviously like, so three of us are always going to be saying no problem.

9:07And three of us are going to be going, I can't believe they're doing that. That's unacceptable. So let's, let's agree on the communication style. I forget what they called it. It was like conflict norming, I think is what they called it. Um, but I thought that was really, really helpful. So what we mostly did, I didn't really follow the full book, um, as much cause it's designed to do half day, full day or two day. And I had like an hour and a half. I did end up, I did end up getting, I think about four hours, but, um, but really just going through and having conversations around those things.

9:40And then we tackled, um, three really, really tough issues that we were having in the company to test our ability to apply the five disciplines and the, the things that we talked about in the norming. And, um, and it was actually really super productive. We, we, you know, we got a good plan of action on, uh, all of those things. and two of them only a week later have already been resolved, which is kind of cool. When do you think it's appropriate for companies to start doing that kind of stuff? Because just for context, this company is doing, can you kind of, in general, what their revenue is in team size?

10:21Right at$100 million. And it's been around for, the company's been around, I think, for 12 years. This team has been together for a little over a year. And I want to say that Lee and Connie said you should have the team together for six months. So when would be if you have an executive team of between three and 12 people that's been together for six months, I guess would be a way to say it. What are your thoughts on that? I've just seen teams do this kind of stuff too early. like you know they're doing like a half a million dollars in revenue and it's it's you know a founder and a couple co-founders and they're doing a lot of this stuff and um you know i i do believe that it is possible to do this kind of work too early when really in the early days your focus does just need to be on growth it needs to be on sales and that's that is where it needs to be and then i've seen teams do it way too late and and believe that this stuff doesn't matter and there's a time in the early days when it's basically entrepreneurial arts and crafts time.

11:26And if you do it, it's a waste of time. And then there's a time when if you don't do it, you're going to have some really, really, really big issues. It's like, you know, if you have unresolved issues in any relationship, you don't provide a framework and a safe place to talk about it. You probably know this because I know you know a lot of the like software startup type things, but what I would, I agree with you. I think that this would be, you've got a team and, and it's been together for six months and it's truly like people that have defined lanes. Like you've got not that, you know, yeah, we're just showing up and whatever needs to be done, we're going to do.

12:06We're all wearing all the hats. But I think if you've got a finance person and a marketing person and a HR person and a, you know, fulfillment and a product and, you know, then, okay, you have a team. You actually have a team. Yeah, when you have a true leadership team. But the other thing that I found, and see if this rings a bell, I really liked it. I wanted to send it to you to maybe talk about was some startup Silicon Valley type group put together 50 questions to ask a potential co-founder. And I thought it was really good because it helped people get aligned. It was really more for the software world.

12:46So there's questions about, you know, are we going to go to a hackathon? You know, OK, not that one. But but I thought it would adapt really well to anybody because it's it's the questions that I used to ask people as an attorney when two people would come in the office and say, we want to do a partnership. So, okay, we need to know all these things, but way deeper. So, you know, less legal and more, you know, what do you want? What's your vision for the company? What, you know, how do you see our role? What, you know, what do you like? Do you want to have kids? Do you want to relocate? Yeah. And so I thought that really is treating it like the relationship that it is.

13:24Yeah. Have you seen that or heard anything about it? Yeah, the 50 questions to ask your co-founder, I have seen it. I stumbled across it as well out there. We'll have to track it down and add it to the show notes. So I do think that it's really, really good. And I think that there's that for getting together. And maybe even in the beginning when the team is coming together, it would be good to go through that up until the point that you have a team, at which time I think you do the five dysfunctions or something like that. And that, that's, that's, that's, there's going to be good things that come out of getting people on the same page with that 50 question thing.

14:04Yeah, we have, I will say we have, we have done these exercises when we had a brand new member of, um, of, of a leadership team. And it just turned out that, cause we do quarterly planning that that's the cadence that we do it. And we don't do one of these every single quarter. That's a bit much, but we try to do one every two or three quarters so that we're definitely getting one in, you know, every year and very often twice a year. And it just so happened we had planned to do one and we had a new, you know, in this case, I believe it was a head of product that was coming on. And so the timing was such that I think he had only been with us for like two weeks.

14:41We're doing a quarterly planning meeting, totally appropriate for him to be there. and and so we went through this exercise and it was great it was really great and he just got indoctrinated indoctrinated the company he now knew everybody um it was really really really good and so i do think that when you talked about the six month rule i think that that's good a good rule for teams overall that i wouldn't rush to do this if you're if the team as a whole hasn't been working together for very long. But I wouldn't say to somebody, if they're new to the team, like prevent them from participating.

15:18Don't prevent them from participating. That's just one like nuance that I wanted to make sure that we threw in. Don't be like, well, you haven't been here for six months, so we're not going to let you participate. Like, because I think it's such a great way to bring somebody into the fold. Yeah, I agree. And I think that's a really good point that, that it's, it, they, they want the team, let's call it the core team. Like if you were, if you had just said, let's hire a CFO and a COO and a CMO and put them all in a room, that's not been a team, even though the company has been around. So if it's, if it's one new member, probably no big deal.

15:54If it's more than that, it's big enough deal. I guess it depends on how big the team is, but, um, I'd say that you want some time to work together to see where you, because the, the, the five dysfunctions thing says conflict is a good thing, which I had, I've had that book for, I don't know, since it came out probably, um, and never got through it. Um, but, uh, all the way, but, uh, the, the idea of conflict being a good thing is, uh, is something that I think runs counter to the way a lot of us were taught, that you're better off to listen. You're supposed to, particularly old school business when I was coming up through B school was consensus.

16:35We're trying to form a consensus. And this is consensus is death. Consensus kills because everybody's basically creating what they call artificial harmony. And artificial harmony is not good. Conflict is good. Disrespectful, unproductive conflict is not good. But conflict so that everyone feels heard and everything gets discussed and considered is good. And then the other, the only thing I would counter that with, and then I'll, I'd love to get your feedback is I also don't want to argue every single point every time I have a discussion. It's like, so there needs to be some respect my lane, but feel heard balance that I'm not exactly sure how to describe.

17:18Maybe you have ideas on that, but, but the last thing I want to do is have an eight hour meeting because we have to talk about everybody's feelings about every single thing. And maybe that's wrong, but at the same time, it doesn't seem terribly efficient. Yeah. I mean, there definitely needs to be a place for, okay, we've talked about it and the CEO needs to be the one that renders a verdict. And we're done talking about it. We got to move on. And that is a big part of Patrick Lencioni's model is at some point, the CEO, the leader needs to step in and lead. And And what leadership often is, is being the person who makes the decision, being the chief decisionator.

17:59And so I think that's important. One other thing that I was going to say, because we did this one time and made a horrible mistake. So I talked about having the new person who was on the leadership team, and that was great. One other time, we invited somebody who was not on the leadership team, but we really wanted their input in the particular planning meeting. So they were not on the leadership team, but we really needed their input. So we invited them to the planning meeting and we reworked the schedule. I don't remember why. I think we were actually bringing in an outside facilitator and maybe the timing was messed up.

18:35And so they came in the morning instead of the afternoon, whatever. But it just so happened that this person was there while this, you know, bonding team building exercise took place and they weren't in the leadership meeting. And man, oh, man, it was a train wreck. It was an absolute disaster because not only did everybody, while they were in the room, feel like they couldn't really share because somebody who's on the leadership team who wasn't on the leadership team was there. as soon as we're done, this person was walking around peacocking, you know, sauntering into everybody's office as though they were now on the leadership team.

19:12And it just created a really, really, really bad, you know, it created a really bad kind of cultural, I don't know, just stank. I don't know another way to say it with, you know, within the office that took a while to get rid of it. So you do want to be very, very thoughtful about who is in that room. And the tendency is going to be to include everybody, but you really do want to make sure that it should only be folks who are on that leadership team. If you're the CEO, if you're the founder, you know, your direct reports. And that is going to mean that there's some folks who are not there and that's okay.

19:53This is one of those places where if in doubt, don't have them there. Not if in doubt, include them. Just ask me how I know. Do you think that it is like, is that a bright line only direct reports to the CEO? Or is there another, like, are there people who might not be that direct report that would be good to have in there? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't, yeah, that's, it's not that, I don't think it's that clear. I mean, they need to clearly be on whatever that leadership team is, the people who are making the decision. And so it's going to depend largely on the company structure. Maybe it's C-suite, maybe it's SVP, maybe it's VP, maybe it's all the directors, heads of, you know, I don't know.

20:41I think he capped it at 12. I think he said, don't have more than 12 people. It's just too hard, which 12 would be a lot because even nine was, I'd say like, maybe you could go one more, but I don't know if 11 or 12 even would be, would be as workable. That's a massive, I mean, that would be a really, really big leadership team. I think, you know, at its peak, Amazon had like 20 something, but that's Amazon. Yeah. So, you know, and you think about Amazon being a bunch of different companies within the company that probably could have all had their own, you know, respective offsites. So, you know, if Amazon had 20, you probably shouldn't have 20 because you're probably not Amazon.

21:24Yeah, that makes sense. Interesting. Well, you know what? We ended up kind of talking about this. So I think we make this an episode. Is there anything else that you think goes with this conversation? What I will say is it, as we have moved to a more remote first world with a lot of companies, I know we have, and I know a lot of businesses have, the importance of getting everybody together to plan on a regular basis and to connect and to break bread together and to do these kinds of things, even if you think they're a little bit cheesy, and I kind of do. And I'm not talking about like trust falls and stuff like that necessarily, but giving the people on your leadership team, because they are people, giving them the opportunity to connect as human beings, I think is just so incredibly important, especially if you're remote, but also if you're not, if you're all under one roof.

22:28I know with this particular company, by and large, everybody's under one roof, but they typically still don't get the opportunity to connect as people. And it's just so incredibly important, especially as companies scale, just to pause. And if you're saying, oh, well, we don't have time to take a day or a half day to do an offsite, the fact that you don't have time, the excuse is probably the reason. You probably need to get everybody offsite, have that reset, have that fast and get it done. It's funny because in those, and I've gone through a lot of these with different companies, in the meetings where it's a weekly meeting and it's, okay, give us a business win, give us a personal win.

23:12Um, I struggle on business wins easy because I'm, I'm working on things. There's always something happening, but in my personal life, there are things that I feel would be not wise to share because I might have a different lifestyle than, you know, other people. I might have different compensation level. I might do different things that would then sound, you know, like braggy or, you know, or just create, you know, discontent of some type. Um, and so then I'm reaching for personal wins and then it's things that I don't think anybody would have, you know, like, I don't consider it a personal win that I learned to play a jazz song.

23:57I've been trying to learn how to play or, you know, something like that. I find it really hard on a weekly basis to do that. So we actually in that company, we talked a little bit about that meeting. And I'm going to loop this back to what you were talking about. And we decided to rotate a book once a month and a couple of other things. So we're only doing the personal win thing once a month. Because everybody's personal win that has kids is, my kids played and they won this game against this team. And And I know nobody cares about that, but that's my personal win. And you guys already know that my kids play that.

24:37You know that they're on the team and that they're going to play every single week 10 times. And so I can't possibly be interesting to you. But knowing it the first time is interesting. And so in the dysfunctions thing, they have you say where you were born and then how many siblings you have and then what was your biggest challenge growing up. Not deep-seated therapy requiring challenges, but just what thing did you find was hard. And the purpose of that is to get people to know each other so that you don't have the, I forget what, you'll probably remember it, it's something attribution where you basically tend to attribute to other people that good things happen to them because they're lucky and good things happen to you because you have good character.

25:37and so to get past that, it's to get you to know the other members on the team on a more personal level because then you won't do that attribution thing to them and you'll treat them more as equal human beings. So I do like it for that purpose, but man, there's only so much sharing that I feel is that truly productive of what's going on in your personal life. I'd love to get your take on it. I agree. I mean, we, we changed it to, um, just tell me something good that happened last week. Just tell me something good. And it can be business or personal. Just tell me something good. Um, cause it's more about opening the positivity.

26:19Um, but, and, and that's why I do, I would much rather, as opposed to throwing out something kind of trite and meaningless once a week, get everybody together once a quarter and break bread together, like get together and do some real life together. Because what the real goal is, what you're really wanting to do is to create enough trust, to do enough people-y stuff together that you do see these other folks as real life human beings. Because all we're trying to do is to create enough trust that we're establishing benefit of the doubt. Because what happens in teams is if something goes wrong and I don't fully trust this other person, I'm going to ascribe malicious intent.

27:03just when they didn't mean it at all. Like something happened and I'm going to tell the worst possible version of the story. I'm going to tell a narrative that is like, they're out to get me and they're trying to screw me and all this other stuff. With accounting. And all getting the benefit of the doubt is, is choosing to tell the best possible version of the story. And that only happens if we see these people as people. And that's what just getting together and doing these kinds of exercises does. Yeah. Yeah. Just not, not too frequently, please. But yeah, the example with that, that was like with the accountant is, well, the accountant's asking for all these receipts and stuff because they don't trust us.