Navigating Business Transitions: From Epic to Scalable

25:28You know, I think course people are primarily DIY people. Whereas if you're selling a solution, then you're in a better, a better market to find, to have people that want to partner because they are buying the solution so they don't have to do it. Whereas the course people are buying the course so that they can learn how to do it. And then that means they're going to learn how to do it and do it themselves like that. And to me, that's not a bad thing. I'm not talking bad about course people because you and I are course people too. And we buy courses so that we can do how to do this stuff ourselves.

25:59I was going to say, we want to do it too. But if you're the solution provider of the thing selling to DIYers, then you shouldn't really be surprised when they DIY. Whereas if you're selling a solution to people who want a job done that does the job, then you're probably going to be more likely to get those people wanting to hire you to do the job. So I think to me, it's a pretty big epiphany to realize that this far in, that that's really not the market. If you want to build deal flow, it's probably not going to come from there. Now you get huge credibility and everybody's like, oh, you're the acquisition guy or you're the marketing guy or whatever.

26:44So then the people who do want the solution come to you, but it's indirect. And so if you're taking so much effort, you know, and directing it towards being the DIY educator person, teaching people how to do the things you're really teaching your competition and you're also kind of barking up the wrong tree, you know, you're, you're, you're trying to teach the pig to sing, right? It doesn't work. Yeah. And I think, cause I was going to ask what, what do you, what was sort of the biggest lesson, biggest takeaway from this five-year experiment with Epic. Yeah, I think that's it, right? And it's funny because it was the same thing at the Scalable Company.

27:23I mean, the Scalable Company, we've developed a lot of frameworks and models and methodologies for scaling businesses, scaling entrepreneurial companies, our scalable operating system being kind of the flagship of all the models that we do. When that business launched, we taught people how to do it. There were courses and cohort-based things. I mean, this again was coming out of the pandemic when everybody's launching courses. And our belief was, well, surely if we have people go through this course and training on how to systemize their business, some of them will say, wow, we would love to have you partner with you in the scale of this business.

27:58And what we found was that nobody did that. So we stopped selling the course. And instead we just started saying, if you want us to work with you and your team one-on-one to install this operating system will do that. And people have said to me, they're like, you know, Ryan, why? People still be like, why are you in the course business? Like, we're not. We don't sell courses at the scalable company. But then let's say, well, why did you build this services-based company if you just want to do deals? Because to your point, the people who invest in services, in getting it done for them, are the people who want to partner with you on deals moving forward.

28:35The people who want to just buy a course on how to do it are not. And so it's been a lot more fun now. Yeah. Yeah. Seems like that should be obvious. That's my, yeah, that's my, I feel so stupid saying it. And I, if you're listening to this right now and you're thinking, yeah, morons, of course, just know we thought the same thing once we, once this finally clicked for us as well. But what I'm excited about is what I've been able to do. Cause I mean, we made this pivot at the scalable company three years ago was when we said, we're no longer selling any courses. Let's just do the stuff. It freed me up to just teach everything for free on YouTube.

29:13And, you know, funny enough, you wind up and social and what you wind up building is a much bigger profile, far greater credibility. And you wind up attracting the people that you actually want to do business with. So I would just, if you're thinking about being in the course business, I would say, do you want to be in the course business? Cause you like the course business because it can be a really great business. It can be very high margins, can be a good lifestyle from a lifestyle perspective. It doesn't scale past a certain point though. It's very lifestyle. Yeah. I think you got massive scale issues and we know a lot of people who are in this space.

29:45Ultimately, if your goal is to actually do service type work, if your goal is to partner with the people that you're teaching, the course business is not the ideal front end that I think a lot of people, us included, thought that it would be to these higher level deals because they're DIY people and they are do it for me people. And of course people... And let's be honest also. Let's be honest with the crowd here. 95 % of those people are never going to do anything. So not only are you preaching to the wrong crowd, but the crowd isn't going to even listen to you. They're going to buy the course and put it you know, on the shelf in a box on their computer, you know, lose their login and then, uh, report you as a spammer for sending them information about the course that they bought.

30:35It's, it's amazing to me. Um, so like that, like most of the people who are buying courses, me included, aren't going to consume them. It's, I plan to, I want to, you know, I will for a brief period of while I'm super into it. And then, you know, or I'll be like, oh, I'd really like to learn that. I'm going to buy that. And then, you know, life gets in the way. So it's really funny that that's the other aspect of that is that you don't even have the audience that you think you have because they don't even know that they're your audience, you know, past the time that they bought your course. You know, like we've had things, I know you know this, but to me, it just amuses me.

31:17you have things where you send people the confirmation of buying the thing that they got with their password and they reported a spam. How? I'm literally trying to give you the thing you bought. Yeah. No, you're not wrong. That is not like those people. Yeah. If you think those people are going to then like send you business, it's like they don't even want to, they don't even want to talk to the person that they paid money to. It's amazing. But there are lots of people like I have, and you have too, got lots of great relationships as a result of doing that. And that's not everybody that's like that, but it is high 90s.

32:00I really do believe that. And then of the people that do it, then you're into what Ryan and I just said, big epiphany. Hey, shock, shock. The people that wanted you to teach them how to do the thing don't want you to do the thing for them. They want to go do the thing for other people and be a competitor to you and, you know, in, in the nicest way, but, um, it's, it's really interesting. So gosh, what, uh, you know, it only took me, you know, decades and decades to realize that and, um, and you less time cause you're younger than I am. So, uh, it's, but it's kind of funny. And so I think this was the right move.

32:36And that's the other thing is like, so when you do identify something like that and you're like, Hey, this isn't working to give me the outcome that I got into this for, then I have the guts to say this it's, it's not working out. I, my assumptions were wrong. It didn't work the way that I thought it was going to work. Even if it's doing like, even if it's making great money, if you're not getting to the place you want to have the guts to just say, I'm going to turn this train around and go in the other direction. You know, This isn't headed to the destination I want. I need to get to the place I want.

33:08I'm going to correct course. So if you could go back, right? And time machine, right? We're going to go back and talk to that 2020 Roland, right? Because I remember the first webinar that you did. I mean, it kind of started off as like, yeah, I'm going to do like a small... It was sort of like that high school party where you're going to have a few friends over. And then because your parents are out of town and those friends tell a few more friends. The next thing you know, it's like a rager happening at your house. and you don't know what to do. That's sort of how that first Zoom webinar went when you were going to talk about this, because this is not something new that you just came up with out of nowhere.

33:42Like you've kind of only been doing this for the past couple of decades, you know, three ish by last count. I mean, you and I got to be business partners because in the earliest days of us working together, you were telling me that I should be doing acquisitions with the people that I was working with. And I was like, I love the idea. You should help me with that and we should partner up. So this was not a new thing for you. It was just, you saw a unique opportunity in 2020 where it was going to work better than it had. And there were a lot of people freaking out. So you're like, everybody's freaking out.

34:13There's opportunities here. I'm going to, I'm going to tell them about it. And then it was like, ah, everybody wants to know how to do this. I guess I'll create a course. And so I'm a course on how to do this. And then, you know, fast forward, you know, snowball, snowball, snowball, it's a business. And five years later, we're like, what the heck is this? So time machine, we go back to 2020. What would you tell 2020 Roland to do? If you had it to do all over again, because it's not like it was all bad. Obviously it was mostly like 90 % amazing. You know what? I wouldn't, I wouldn't tell that version of myself anything different.

34:47I would probably go to 2023 Roland and say, Hey, is this doing what you wanted to? I mean, is it headed in the direction that you want? Because I feel like the last two years have been kind of like, you know, Hey, this isn't really, you know, this isn't really the place I want to go, but you know, but I'm not sure I want to, you know, let it go at the same time. So I'd probably have the talk with that, that version of me. Cause I, it's great ride, you know, just long. I think it went on a couple of years longer than I would have liked to it. I've for two years, I've been saying this, this wasn't supposed to be this, you know?

35:25So yeah, I should have, I would have moved sooner, I think to, to make the change. I'm glad you said that. Um, cause I think sometimes certainly some of the regular listeners that we will have a reputation with some of these folks that they think that we just kind of always get it right because we get to talk about stuff after it happened. Um, and you look really, really smart when all you do is talk about things that happened. And so, yeah. And you and I haven't really had a chance to talk about this, but I agree. Like it, I think we knew. And I just think it's hard to say when something is working, but you're not happy, we should make a change.

36:02It's easy when it's like - Especially the people. Yeah. I mean, you feel like we had 300 people at one point in Epic Board. We had, you know, a couple thousand people that were in our, uh, our active programs. We had, you know, a hundred thousand plus that were, you know, that had gone through it. We had 25 ,000, I think in the Facebook group, we have, uh, employees and vendors and coaches and partners. And, you know, there's just, you, you don't want to feel that you're let those people down, you know? So like, I think it, it was, that was the hardest thing about making the final decision, I think is that you're like, you know, this is, this is going to be different for a lot of people, but at the same time, it does free them from something that you're not, that your heart's not in anymore, the, to go do, you know, other things.

36:52And I think that there's, there is good in that for them as well. So, but that's, that's the hard thing for me is, is just like, you know, when you have so many people that, that depend on something because it's grown to this thing. And I think that's hard for any entrepreneur. And you're like, I don't really want to do this, you know? So, but, but then like what we ended up talking about was, well, it's not that we're not going to do it. It's just that let's not do it the way that was not effective for us. How can we make, what would have to be true for this to actually be doing the thing that we wanted and to be happy with it.

37:24And we were like, we just need to move it over here and focus it on the people that we want to do deals with. And so that's, you know, that was what we did. it. Now, if you didn't do that, I'd say sell it. And when you sell it, then it's kind of a pretty good line in the sand of this isn't going to happen anymore. Yeah. I love, I want to come back to that because that question to me is the razor. Like that's, that's the question that kind of cuts through everything. But you said something that I think is important. Um, I love, I love the way that you said it. Um, we didn't, we're, we're scared to make decisions very often because usually we know what we should do.

37:59Anytime I've found that anytime I'm struggling to make a decision, it's, it's rare that I don't know what I should do. It's that I know exactly what I should do. And I know people are going to be impacted negatively by it. And so I'm actually trying just to come up with a way, like, is there something else I haven't thought of? Is there like a plan Q or plan V that like, I haven't thought of that, like, is going to allow, you know, me to have everything I want and for nobody to be negatively impacted by this. And so that's kind of where you get into this delay cycle. But you said something that I think is important that we'll forget about allowing people who you say you care about to linger in a business or an opportunity that you no longer believe in.

38:41Well, that's not very nice either. And that's not fair either. Simply saying, I'm going to let this, you know, be this person's like kind of best, worst option. Like I'm not that into it, but I'm so worried about how it's going to affect them that, um, that I don't want to make a call. We should call that what it is, which is ego, right? It's ego and fear of having the uncomfortable conversation because the reality is we ain't the only game in town. There's lots of ways for people to have phenomenal careers and opportunities and things like that, even outside. And fortunately for us, we're able to, again, this is being acquired by another company, so we're not letting a bunch of people go.

39:17But I've just found when you do this, you're like, I don't want to make decisions because I'm going to hurt these people. Look, they're probably going to be just fine. In fact, they'll probably be better off because they're going to land in a company with a leader who believes in the thing that they're building that they're not working for. And so stop telling yourself the lie that like all these people, they're going to be so hurt by it. Usually that's just fear and ego talking in my experience. Let's stay married for the kids. Yeah, right. Exactly. Let's do this for the kids. Kids are so sick of y 'all being around one another.

39:46Exactly. So what, okay, so going back here and kind of one last round of questions, you said, you asked the question, or you mentioned the question that kind of we asked that I think is the important one. Whenever you're not happy about your business or your role or whatever, the question to ask that I know that we asked, that we pondered is what would need to be true for this to be awesome? So right now it's not awesome, but what would need to be true for it, for it to be awesome. Is there anything else that you would want to kind of say to, about that? Cause I think that is just such an important question to ask.

40:26I mean, I think that's the question. So, you know, then, then it's, it's like, like that, if we went through that one, it's like, what would have to be true? I mean, they'd have to be sending us deals. Okay. Well, what would have to be true for them to say? It's kind of like the, you know, the five whys, you know, why is, why is it this thing not working, you know, on the manufacturing line. I forget what the guy's name was, the Japanese guy that invented it. But that system of the five whys applies, you know, here. It's like, what would the five, what would have to be trues? You know, you need to dig deeper.

40:59It's like, well, it'd have to be sending us customers that would have to be sending us deals. Okay. Well, what would have to be true for it to be sending you deals? These people would have to actually go out and do more. And then they would have to believe they would have to find leads of companies and then not want to do those deals themselves. Okay. Well, what would have to be true for them not to want to do it themselves? They would have to find deals that were maybe beyond them or outside their area of expertise. Okay. What would have to be true for that? I mean, but then you look at all of those things and you say, what's the likelihood of that happening?

41:30And what, what could I do to make that be true? And if you can't change the universe and, you know, and gravity and, you know, things like that, you know, then it's like, what's the lift also to make that happen? How much effort would it take to turn that into that? And you're just like, eventually, if you can't find a solution to that, it's do something different. Yeah. And what you said there, I think is important. It starts with asking and acknowledging, well, why did we do this in the first place? Right? Because there's lots of ways that we can go out there and make money. We did this because we wanted to do more deals.

42:06We wanted to do more acquisitions. We've got scalable that creates a deal flow engine in terms of people coming to us. We wanted now to partner with dealmakers who are out there going and finding more deals that weren't necessarily coming to us. Well, that's not happening. So what would need to be true for it to happen? I mean, and ultimately it's like, we can work with a lot less people within the community that we already have on the scalable side. Not for us, it was. Yeah, for us, it was, well, we actually already have that. Why don't we just double down on that? I mean, that's really what happened, right?

42:43Yeah, and again, I think that's, I think asking the question of what do I actually want out of this? Like, what did I want when I started? Has anything changed on that? Because for us, it hadn't changed. We still wanted the original thing that we wanted when we started the thing. Nothing's changed on that. So how do we get there? And yeah, and then you wind up with what would need to be true. And ultimately, yeah, found out that it wouldn't need to exist as a brand on its own.

43:09So what's next? You're retired, right? So I'm guessing you're just going to be playing a lot of golf lately, screwing around, not really doing a whole lot. Yeah, you know, golf, pickleball. You're officially done? Is that travel? A little bit of travel? We're going to read. You are playing. Reading crime novels. I'm not a pickleball.

43:28No, I am. Yeah, well, I mean, what does day-to-day life look like for Roland moving forward? How do we see this going down? What can people expect to hear from you? I mean, I'm busy here than I've. You know, Homer Simpson back into the hedges kind of thing. So what's happening?

43:45I am busier than I've ever been. I have doubled down on all the content because I love creating content. I feel more creative and productive in that area than I have in a long time. I've written multiple books in just the last few months. I've got two fiction books now that are business fables. One of them is in process of being final edited. We've got Exit Ready is the book that's coming out. I've got maybe four more. I've tried to lure you into one of them. Um, and, uh, and so I love voraciously consuming all that I can that's out there and, um, having hours long conversations with all the AI engines and, you know, and other business people.

44:31And so I'm, I'm probably going to be more productive than I've ever been. Uh, and I'm super, super happy with it. And, um, and deals wise, I, I see deal levels kicking up because I'm, I'm not, you know, I had, you know, I talked about last night, we were drinking wine and, and I was like, man, I have never created so many decks in my life to present. I would be kind of happy not to have to present another presentation deck for, you know, a year that would be fine with me. I do enjoy doing them, but my gosh, so many. Uh, and, uh, so I, I really want to focus on the deals. My, my whole life is going to be, you know, we have several deals that we're in.

45:14We have a very large one that you and I, um, you know, are in the fourth month of right now that, you know, hopefully we'll turn into, uh, a significant equity deal for us. And, um, we have, uh, an exit that we are working on for one of our companies that should lead to some significant new things that will take some of our time. So like, I, I think you're going to see more of me, not less of me. It's just, you're not going to see me saying, you know, please buy my Epic course. If, um, if this was kind of the last message to the Epic community, which I get it, like Epic people, you're very welcome in the scalable community.

45:56They've always been like sister brands anyway, but. But, you know, probably by the time this drops, Epic will pretty much have been sunset like that, that, that brand. If this is kind of the last message that you put out there to the thousands of people that have gone through the programs that have learned from you, that have had that have built businesses, acquired businesses because of it. What would you what kind of message would you want to leave them with? I mean, it's different segments of people that you mentioned there. The people that have acquired businesses and done all that stuff, I would say thank you for taking what I shared and actually putting it into use and then letting me know about it because that is so fulfilling.

46:40I've had so many people that just found a new life for themselves by doing this stuff. And so the message to those people is thank you. The message to the people, which is the bulk of the people who haven't done it yet. that it would be stop learning and go do it. You've learned enough. So go and make this happen. Go do deals. That to me is the big message I would like to live with them because you can. So many people have. And so if you can get past your imposter syndrome and your fear and your disbelief and your inaction and actually focus on doing this, I finally started in the events that we were doing saying, you know, everybody here can buy a business tomorrow.

47:30Like go to biz, buy, sell and find one that's for sale, get an SBA loan, and you've got a business. So like that, that should not be points of disbelief because it's so easy to do that. There's a business store. You can go to the business store and take one off the shelf and take it to the cashier and say, this is the one I want. And ta-da, you own a business. So like there shouldn't be anything standing in the way of you doing that. And you have all the strategies and tools and techniques to do it. So that would be it for me is like, man, if I had a hundred thousand of those people that didn't take action, that now bought something over the next year, I'd be so happy, so happy.

48:10And then send me a message and tell me that you did it. Cause I really do like hearing it. Yeah. I remember one, one time you said to me, um, sometimes you just got to get out there and just do a crappy deal just to get some forward motion. Like let's, let's go out there and let, let's do it. Let's do it poorly at first. And the very first deal that you and I ever did together was in fact an incredibly crappy deal. And you knew it was a crappy deal going into it. Um, I was excited about it and, and you felt like it was important for us just to do a deal. And for me to see that these kinds of things can happen, that they're out there and you, and you can do them.

48:46You can, you know, you can get into them. Now, I think what a lot of people forget, and this is why I'm so excited to have Epic and Scalable together is because very often people are the dog that catch the car. Like I did a deal, like now I own a business. Crap. Like the acquisition isn't always the hardest part. It's the, it's the running and the scaling of the dang thing. But just the idea that get out there And whether you're thinking about doing a deal on the epic side, I think this applies to any aspect of life. Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly at first. And so just go out there and just say, I'm just going to go out there and just do a really crappy deal where I kind of burn up some time.

49:20And I might even lose a little money. If they're following your advice, they shouldn't lose a lot of money based on how to get into it. You'll learn from it. It'll be great. you'll learn so much more by getting out there and blooding your nose a little bit than you will just by going and going through a bunch of courses. So I know there's people out there right now because they're buying them like crazy. I mean, when you tell people, hey, these courses are going to be gone forever. So now it's kind of your last chance to get them. What do you know? People decide to buy them. So there's a lot of people right now going to EpicNetwork.com who are buying these different courses and trainings because they know that this is their last chance to have access to them.

49:56I think that's smart too. I am a fan of somebody that knows what they're doing and lives what they're doing, who has taken the time to organize their thoughts into a way to show you how to do it, is pretty priceless. That's why I love autobiographies. That's what I have done for acquisitions and consulting for equity. To me, I've bought and gone through every course that you can imagine on how to do this. and I think that ours are the best, like by a long shot. So definitely - Without a doubt. If you're thinking about doing something like this and you want to own a course about it, you will not own a better one.

50:36It's to me, one of the best investments you can ever make, particularly if you're going to take it and use it. And that's the message, right? Definitely go out there and get it because it is the best that's out there. And we can say that obviously we're biased, but we're also not idiots. Like we're not just gonna like, you know keep selling stuff that we know is inferior to what else is out there on the market i mean if i like if i don't know how like i i guess we're naturally biased but like i'm perfectly fine saying man those guys nailed it that course is amazing yeah we're very often harsh critics um yeah so i mean i i completely agree and um but the the number of people you were you were among the first to talk about this stuff and the number of copycats that have popped up and we know who they are because god dang it they started as our own students and some of them we've had to send some cease and desist because their copycatting was a little too copy catty a little copy but i i think it's one of the things i think is a tad unfortunate is that like the the person who's the best out there at doing this stuff has decided that he wants to focus on doing it.

51:46And therefore he's going to, doesn't have the time to teach it anymore. Like that's, that's the decision that you've made is I don't have time to teach it anymore. Cause I just want to go and do it. And so I think that's a bummer for a lot of people who hear this after everything is gone. But if you happen to hear this first, please take advantage of it. Please utilize it. And please go out there and do some stuff, even if it's just like one crappy deal. And Hey, look, if you happen to be one of the very, very, very rare course person who buys a training, invest in it, learns how to do it, and happens to actually find a deal and wants to bring it to us, we still would love to work with you.

52:23We would. That still is our goal. That's why we got here in the first place. And that's what we're going to be focusing on. So yeah, so I would say in the future, like where should people go if they want to kind of keep learning from you? I mean, obviously you're going to be still talking about stuff in your social properties and things like that. Um, but yeah, that'd be the place. I think there's go ahead. I'm sorry. No, you're answering. Go ahead. Oh, I, I mean, I have a YouTube channel and a LinkedIn and an X slash Twitter account and Instagram and Facebook and all of those things, you know, and TikTok and all of those things, uh, have content will continue to have content.

53:03I do a weekly live on YouTube answering questions. You know, I will be involved with Scalable. So Findable there. I'm pretty easy to get a hold of. So, and you will definitely see me because my content is, you know, Amazon, new books, you know, my content will continue to come out. The good news about the courses too is they're not like marketing courses where the things change every day. They are pretty solid for a long period of time, you know? Yeah. that's a really really great point um yeah so i guess um everybody should be following you across all of the socials um because you're gonna be more prolific even than before less less content gating uh and then yeah see what uh if you're in the scalable universe and in the scalable ecosystem it's gonna get it's gonna get fun and exciting certainly for um scale and exit accelerator clients for founders board members like this is only amazingly good news for you because now all of this is just getting pulled right in to all the stuff that you already have.

54:07So it gives us the ability to make the programs that we have even more awesomer and deliver even better for our clients. So I'm excited about that as well. Any final words? No, man, just this, I'm excited about everything we did. I am grateful for everybody that participated in it. This is not over, it's just changing and I'm excited about where we're headed. Really, really excited. Me too. Me too. And for everybody, just know if you're there in a similar place with your business where you're like, I don't know if I'm really digging on this thing anymore. Um, you know, change it. You get to do that.

54:42Like that's, that's the great thing about starting one of these things is you don't have to stay stuck. I think it goes for anybody. You know, if you're somewhere where you don't want to be move, um, be proactive about doing it, but be clear if you're going to exit something, what you're exiting, um, too. And, um, certainly if you need help processing through any of that stuff, that's kind of what we do with our clients all day long. So shameless pitch, um, go to scalable.co and, you know, book a meeting to talk to us about whatever the heck it is you want to talk to us about. Um, cool, man. Well, we should probably, um, I know we got some, you know, stuff that we got to finalize for this pesky event we got coming up in the next couple of days with Get Scalable Live.

55:15So we should probably call it there. I agree. Let's do it. Amazing. All right. Well, um, thank you. You usually sign this thing off. Thanks everybody. I'm going to sign it off. I was going to say, thank you everybody. If you found this interesting and enjoyed it, please let us know. We're available on all the socials, as Ryan said. And if you enjoyed it, also please share it. We love having people on Business Lunch. It's, you know, we're tens and I don't even, tens of millions of downloads at this point. And I think almost into 600 episodes. I've been doing it for a long time and really, really enjoy it and love having you guys with us.

55:51So share it with a friend, tell them that it's wonderful and that they should be watching or listening too. And we'll see you next time on Business Lunch. Ever wonder how some people build real wealth through acquisitions while others just sit on the sidelines? Well, I'm here to tell you it's not about luck. It's about having the right system, the right deals, and the right guidance. And that's exactly what we give you in the Epic Deal Fast Track. If you've been thinking about buying a business, but you keep getting stuck, whether it's finding the right deal, structuring the financing, or negotiating with sellers, You are not alone.

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