The Fine Line Between Clickbait and Effective Marketing

0:00You've got to be crystal clear on who your ideal client is. And I think most brands aren't. You know, they think they serve a much larger audience than they do. And in reality, they serve a fairly narrow audience. And if you're saying, I'm talking specifically to this person, then I'd say you can probably go a little bit farther than you think you can with the quote unquote clickbaitiness. Because really, when we talk about clickbait, what we're really talking about is engaging communication. And I think oftentimes we maybe give ourselves a little bit too much credit in terms of what our prospects think about us.

0:39And in reality, they don't think anything at all. So you're putting out this messaging, and you think that it's very aspirational and very inspiring and very professional. And so you think that your prospects think that you're this high-level aspirational brand. In reality, they don't think about you at all.

1:00Hey, everybody. Welcome to Business Lunch. I am your host, Roland Frazier, and my co-host Ryan Dice right next to me. Ryan, I have kind of a surprise topic for you today. I told Ryan, I said, I have a surprise topic. Yeah, I'm very concerned. What are we talking about today? I'm not going to tell you. Fantastic. It's like it's less of a podcast episode and more of an ambush. So, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm I'm I want to talk about the different models for depreciation under the 1986 Act and how they've changed over the years. I was wondering when we were going to get to this. Perfect. Let's go. No, I actually had a client, a private client of ours that reached out to me this morning and and I thought it was a great question.

1:49And it's something that I think a lot of you are thinking about if you've been exposed to marketing at all. And here's what it is. Basically, he owns a, I think they're in the$40,$50 million a year range company. It's very high end. The audience is high end as well. Very accomplished people in the business that they are in. And he said, I am looking out in the market and some of our competitors are starting to use more marketing and sales oriented copy. And so the messaging is five ways to blah, blah, blah, blah, that your so-and-so doesn't want you to know, that kind of stuff. And he said, do you think that it cheapens the brand to use that kind of marketing?

2:45And I want to get your thoughts on that because I think it's something that is worth thinking about. Like, your messaging can speak to the wrong people and attract maybe an audience that you don't want that's different from the audience that you've been attracting. And I would say that from both standpoints. So let's start with what do you think? I'll start with the question he asked. What do you think about changing high-end aspirational and professional marketing messaging to more, I'm going to say clickbaity for lack of a better term. He referred specifically to click funnels. He's like, you know, I see these click funnels type things and, you know, I just don't know.

3:30So what do you think about that? Does it cheapen the brand? That's the first question. I mean, the answer, of course, is like it depends on how far you go. Right. I think that there's you've got to be crystal clear on who your ideal client is. And I think most brands aren't. You know, they think they serve a much larger audience than they do. And in reality, they serve a fairly narrow audience. And if you're saying I'm talking specifically to this person, then then I'd say you can probably go a little bit farther than you think you can. with the quote unquote clickbaitiness. Because really when we talk about clickbait, what we're really talking about is engaging communication.

4:11And I think oftentimes we maybe give ourselves a little bit too much credit in terms of what our prospects think about us. And in reality, they don't think anything at all. So you're putting out this messaging and you think that it's very like aspirational and very inspiring and very professional. And so you think that your prospects think that you're this high level aspirational brand. In reality, they don't think about you at all, right? Because it's not doing anything to cut through. Similarly, you worry about swinging the pendulum too far and being a little bit too hypey, a little bit too aggressive, a little bit too clickbaity, because that might cause them to think differently about your brand.

4:51But again, they don't think anything at all. Now, there are certain brands out there that have been built over decades that clearly, if they were to fundamentally shift their messaging to if Rolex were to start running ads, that was here's five things you don't know that that watch, you know, luxury watch buyers wish they knew before they bought their first one. People be like, that seems a little bit odd, right? Hey, Ryan Dice here, co-host of Business Lunch. And before we get to the show, I have an exciting invitation for you. My business partner and Business Lunch co-host, Roland Frazier, and I are hosting a live in-person event.

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7:34That's all I got. I'll see you in Austin. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming. Off-brand, you might say. Off-brand, but I think it's important. A lot of these brands, if you go back and look at what their advertising was when they were much, much earlier, it was more direct response. And so I think it's important to say that just just to remember that, number one, we've got to be clear on who is it that we are talking to. Right. Are we actually talking to the person that we most want to engage? That's the first filter that you have to run it through. The second thing that you need just to give yourself some some grace on this is they don't think much about you at all.

8:12And so you have more leeway than you think that you have. But ultimately, I would much rather people see me and be mildly annoyed than be completely ignored because none of our messaging was breaking through. So I do think that most brands, even the higher end, even the luxury brands, could be a little bit more persuasive, let's just say, in their messaging than they think they can. Yeah. So I agree with you. I think that if you look at what I told him, as I said, it depends on who you are speaking to. And I think that if you're speaking to higher level people, it is less appealing because it is more seen for what it is.

9:01And there's so much noise in the market now that everyone is using and rehashing the same copy that, you know, it's ClickFunnels especially. Right. It's they all laughed when I said I could build a funnel. But then when I did, you know, it's like, OK, that's very, very right out of the, you know, the copy, the stock headlines book. And they have worked in the past, but I would argue that because authenticity is one of the number one things that people are looking for these days, that if you've got a sophisticated audience who you have spoken to successfully in the past and you want to engage them differently, then the answer, of course, is always test.

9:46Test it and see what works. A couple of tests to a segment of your list is not going to destroy your brand. It might cause them to scratch their head and not respond. And you can say, you know what? They don't seem to like that. Right? And the good news is at that point, they've forgotten about it. It's done. It vanishes from their mind. It's not going to drive such a deep groove that they'll never get over it. And I said, but you may also find that you've got two segments of people that you have high-end people that buy your high-end things, but you have people that you're nurturing along as well, and they may very well be nurtured better by content that is more click-baity, more, you know, the five things, the seven things.

10:32They're looking for knowledge. They're not problem and solution aware and, you know, have the finances to buy the solution that you offer that happens to be high-end. So it might make sense to segment your audience. But anything that you do is going to repel some people and attract others. And ideally, you're attracting the people that you want, repelling the people you don't. And you can use copy to do that at any level. Hermes, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Rolex, all of those, Chanel, all of those companies repel people who are looking for deals, right? If they're looking for Forever 21 clothing, that's not the place that they're going to do it.

11:13And they can talk bad about it, but those companies are unabashedly, we are high end. And so, you know, you can be that. But you also, I said, you won't see Chanel saying, you know, five buttons, you'd never be caught dead in. That's not going to happen. But it's not going to happen because they've already identified the market and the market that they're after doesn't care about that. The market they're after is honestly more quality, status, tradition. Those are the things that they're looking for. Right. So it's it's it's not, you know, five cheap things and one that, you know, your fashion coordinator will hate.

11:54You know, that's not that doesn't offer you those things. So they're going to focus more on the aesthetic of the runway show. They're going to focus on the quality of the clothing and that it takes 2000 hours to build a dress or something like that. Right. So, yeah. Let's talk about why that is. Because the reason that is, and I think this is really, really important, and this is why it's so vital that you understand who it is that you're selling to, because every business under the sun that has ever existed is only ever selling two things. we're always either selling transformation from a less desirable before state to a more desirable after, or we're selling identity reinforcement.

12:35That's it. That's all any business is selling. And that's all any consumer is buying. And so it's vital that you understand which of those two things that you're selling. If you're in the business of selling transformation, so somebody is in a less desirable before state, they have a problem that needs to be solved. then the way that you speak to that person is you speak to them as though they're somebody who has a problem that needs to be solved. And so then it's okay to be a little bit more abrupt, right? It's okay. I mean, if you walked up to somebody and there was like, you know, like it was clear that their arm had like, was going in the wrong direction, like they had a broken bone, you'd walk up to them with a sense of urgency.

13:11And you might use hype language like, oh my gosh, are you okay? We need to get you to emergency room right now. You have elevated tone, elevated pacing, because again, this person has a problem and you want to meet them where they are in that moment. Now that sounds really hypey if somebody comes up to you and you're totally fine. If, you know, your house is on fire and you don't know it and somebody is banging on your door to let you know your house is on fire, that elevated speech, that quote unquote hype is completely appropriate because it aligns with the problem being solved. Now what's Rolex and some of these luxury brands, you know, Chanel, they're selling identity reinforcement.

13:50And if I'm, if, and what identity reinforcement is, is I want to buy your product so that when I wear it, when I display it, what I'm actually doing is I am signaling some form of status. I'm signaling that I belong to this group. I'm signaling that I believe a certain thing that I am a certain way. And if what you're selling is status signaling, identity reinforcement, then yeah, that needs to trickle down through every aspect of the marketing because that's what people are buying. The mistake that a lot of brands make is they go, oh, I want to be high end. And they want to be this high end, quote unquote, luxury type feel because it's that aspirational brand they want.

14:34But what they're selling is transformation, not identity reinforcement. And so that's why I say you have to start with, I understand who it is that I'm speaking to. I understand either the problem that I'm solving for or the identity that I want to reinforce. And then everything else, if it's run through that filter, you're probably on the right track. Now it's possible to go a little bit softer, a little bit too soft, a little bit too hard, but that's where it needs to start. What is it? Who am I talking to? Am I selling transformation? If so, what's the transformation? Am I selling identity reinforcement?

15:07You talk about ClickFunnels, right? ClickFunnels is a product. The people who are buying it are early stage business owners. They're people who are marketing junkies. And so they're happy to be marketed to in that aggressive manner. They like it. They respect it. It's appropriate. And so just one isn't necessarily good or bad. It's, does it align with your ideal client? And does it empathize with where they are and where they want to be. Love it. Yeah. So I want to also be clear, because you mentioned this earlier, and I think it's important for people to take note that it doesn't stop you from doing direct response advertising to be a high end.

15:51And so I've got some examples. Chanel happens to be something that both of our wives are into. So we get all of the marketing, right? And it's great to study. But Chanel, like a lot of people say, well, you don't ever see Chanel with a call to action. You don't see Chanel doing direct response. You do. It's not done in the clickbait way. It's not done in a salesy way because that's not what that market wants. And the other thing to think about is that Chanel is assuming that you're already solution aware. You're aware that Chanel has a solution to your desire to have Chanel things or your desire to have high fashion or your desire to have status.

16:30They've got that already as an assumption. But so print ad, full page magazine ad with a model that's wearing the latest Chanel fragrance. The tagline is experience the allure. Visit a Chanel counter today. Direct response in a magazine. Television commercial with a Chanel handbag with a voiceover that says, discover the collection at Neiman Marcus, right? Right. Social media highlighting the a new lipstick shade that says swipe up to shop now. Right. No more direct response than that. And they are going DTC direct to consumer now, which is, I think, smart. A pop up shop that's in a high traffic location for a skin care line that Chanel has that says step inside and discover a postcard that we got that had an RSVP for an event.

17:23Right. And on and on. And so in-store displays, interactive websites, mobile app notifications, outdoor ads, they are all direct response, all measurable from the particular channel and the particular ad and outreach that was being made. What's the response look like? But not at all brand denigrating, right? They don't cheapen the brand at all. They speak to the right consumer. So I think that's something that's important for us to think about is that it doesn't mean like not being salesy, which is a complaint. You hear a lot of people don't like that. I don't like it. Now I look at it. I'm just like, it's because I've been lied to so many times by Inc.

18:03magazine. You know, the five things that are going to transform your business and help you double your sales. And you look at it and it's like, think bigger, you know, market. It's so terrible. Get an LLC. I think what's happened is that we've been lied to as a marketing consuming public by so many marketers that a lot of us don't trust that kind of marketing. I truly don't. When I see that stuff, I don't even read it anymore. Right? But you can do direct response. So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Definitely directs response, calls to action. Not a problem no matter where you are on the brand prestige scale, but test everything.

18:55And it's very possible. If you have high-end people, my father was an attorney for years and years and years, and he always responded to the clickbait type ads. He always was looking for ways to improve himself. He came from nothing. He made himself. He's self-made and he never lost the appeal of a good business opportunity, a chance to put money in pretty much anything that anybody said would have a high return. He would do it and ultimately it cost him a lot. But there will be people like that. But I think that has a lot to do with their personal identity, that they're not thinking about your brand.

19:32They're thinking about, I'm still poor, even when they're not. I'm still a failure, even when they're a success. I'm still, you know, I'm not lovable, even though they are. that that's the other thing that you're dealing with. What are your thoughts on all that? I think that hype is in the eye of the beholder. And I think that a lot of businesses use brand or something being on brand or off brand as an excuse to kind of to do cowardly marketing. And if you're going to err, I would err on the side of creating a lot of engagement and a little bit of criticism over less engagement and absolutely no criticism whatsoever.

20:12I've seen a lot of brands go too much and have to pull back, but still win. I've never seen a brand under market and succeed because people went, you know what? They're not really great at marketing, but boy, that sure is a prestige level messaging that they have. They're very professional in their messaging. If you don't break through, if you don't create that initial attention, and if that attention doesn't shift into engagement almost immediately, then, you know, you're going to miss. You're absolutely going to miss. And you might be very, very proud about your brand and your style guide, but you're not going to be proud about your bank account or the size of your business.

20:49You're not going to make the impact that you want to make. I'll also just say like kind of one last framework to help people think about, because we talked about, you know, what are you selling? Are you selling transformation or identity reinforcement? Because that informs messaging and style. We talked about getting really, really clear on your ideal client and making sure that the messaging meets them where they are. Right. And you understand who they are. Is this the kind of messaging that's going to appeal to them or is it going to turn them off? I can tell you, for example, the scalable company.

21:18Our ideal client is a business that's between two and fifty million dollars a year that has 10 or more employees been in business for seven years or longer. And their main problem is not growth. And so it'd be a lot more hypey if we talked about how we're going to help you double your sales in X number of days. But that attracts the wrong kind of client for the work that we're doing. Instead, what we want is the person who's successful but miserable because they're overworked. Very, very, very different. And so the messaging and who we talk to, somebody would say, oh, I like your stuff because you're not hype.

21:50You're not promising, you know, all these big like revenue gains. It's like what we do later on in the funnel because we can we can do that as well. but we want to meet our people where we are because we understand the ideal client. So that's critical. The last bit that I would give you just as a framework to think, am I on the right track is every market, every bit of marketing, every, every messaging is either going to make a deposit of relational equity, or it's going to make a withdrawal of relational equity. When you put marketing out into the market that entertains, that makes people laugh.

22:24Like you think about like a lot of the Super Bowl ads and things like that, that can cause us to feel a certain way about a brand if they pull it off. Oftentimes they don't, but you know, let's be honest, there are certain insurance companies where we go to this one because we like flow or because we like the caveman or because we like the gecko, right? This brand advertising is actually making a deposit of relational equity. Content marketing does the same thing. When you put free content in the market in the form of blog posts, YouTube videos, short form, that is all making a deposit of relational equity.

22:57The brands that you talked about Chanel and how they do, in fact, do direct response. They can get away with doing direct response like that. And people not even perceive it as direct response because they have spent decades making deposits of relational equity in the form of fashion shows that are entertaining and that tell us how we should dress and what the new look is this year in the form of beautiful editorialized photography, like all of these are making deposits of relational equity. And I think as marketing works and you're allowed to make a withdrawal, as long as you have adequate funds on deposit.

23:33So in general, go first, put good, solid content, good value out in the market. Once you have that, you've created the attention and engagement from that, then you're getting, at that point, you're getting the implied permission to make the ask. And so oftentimes what seems hypey, it only seems hypey because an ask is being made of a brand that doesn't have sufficient relational equity on deposit. Love it. I love it. I think it's something to think about. And then I guess that the last thing to layer on all the great summary that you just gave would be test. Test it. Test it to, you know, don't stop testing.

24:15You should always be testing. And so if you're thinking, am I not polarizing my audiences enough? Am I too boring? Am I missing out because my competitors are starting to do that? You don't know if it's working for them or hurting them until you test for yourself. So I think it makes really good sense to think about all the fundamentals that Ryan talked about and think about what you want your customer and all of that, and then test with small groups and see whether you're getting traction or not. And then you also want to be careful to have enough time allowed to see, are these the customers that you want?

24:55Let's say that the marketing works. Let's say that they convert. And let's say that they start refunding, charging back, or you hate them, right? Or they cause your other customers because they're interacting with them now to be repelled and now your best customers are leaving and you've got less desirable customers. Those are all things for you to think about as you're doing your marketing but you'll never know if you don't test and monitor, right? And remember that no one test is going to bring down a brand and if it did your brand was insanely fragile. People still eat Subway sandwiches. I'll just leave it at that.

25:35And they still buy Pepsi. I was just trying to think of like, there's been some pretty big snafus. I think there was one at the Super Bowl not long ago too. Yeah. Oh yeah, tons. I mean, and so test this stuff, try this stuff. And if you're super duper worried that like, oh, but if I try this and they don't like it, then it's going to be bad. That's your ego. That's you thinking maybe a little bit more about your brand than you should. Go out there, see if you can get the attention. All right. Let us know what you guys think. Let us know if you're running into this challenge, if you've had these thoughts, how you've addressed it, if you've addressed it.

26:05How did it work out? And what do you think? We'd love to hear your opinion. Let us know. Hit us up on social. And we will definitely follow up on this as we do our own testing.