Wealth, Work, and What Matters Most

0:00personality in the world. So I threw all that out there just to say it just kind of got me thinking about a lot of things. What do you think about all that? Yeah. I mean, this is the eternal struggle, entrepreneurial struggle, right? And I see people kind of vacillate between two extremes. And on one extreme, I see people who are so concerned about their legacy. And people ask me that all the time. Like, what do you want your legacy to be? What's your legacy? What's your legacy? You know, because they really want to make a massive, they're very impact centric. And they want to make a massive impact on the world.

0:35And they essentially want to not necessarily live forever, but be remembered forever. Right. They want to be important, but not just like as somebody who made a lot of money, but somebody who made a difference. And so when they say legacy, they're like, I just want my legacy to live on. I want to be remembered as somebody who.

0:55Hey, everybody, Ryan Dice and Roland Frazier here with another episode of the Business Lunch Podcast. Ryan, how are you doing today? Spectacularly well, and yourself? I am doing quite well as well, despite the fact that above my head, although you can't see it right now, is an atmospheric river, apparently on the precipice of dumping gallons and gallons and gallons of water on top of me. Yeah, for those who are not familiar, Roland lives in Southern California. We'll give his address at the end of the show if you just want to drop by and say hi. He loves that kind of thing. People have in the past, that's for sure.

1:29Yeah, just knock, just knock and immediately just give him a big hug. His favorite thing in the world. And then as you hug him, if he starts to pull away, that's a sign to pull in tighter and then go, oh, you smell so good. That's his favorite thing. So, again, address coming at the end of the show. That's kind of a bonus. But no, you live in the show notes. Let's just say Southern, the show notes. You live in Southern California where it generally never rains. It's raining a lot. Are you worried about flooding? Are you all going to be okay? Seriously? We are good. We are good. The news always really, really, really overstates things.

2:06So we're good. It is wet outside. I can confirm that. Well, it's either wildfires or rain. One of the two is going to get you. Yes. Or earthquakes, right? Don't forget those. So I came across something that I thought was interesting to talk about. There was kind of a guy that I followed when I was younger. He was just larger than life. A guy named Teddy Forceman. And he had, I think it was Forceman Little was his private equity firm. And he did, it started with small deals, kind of came from nothing. He had a brother that he was always competitive with, but he basically built up a fund, became acquired and became the CEO of Gulfstream Jets, turned it around, got a going away present, a G5 as a going away present.

3:00He flew everywhere. He had dalliances with Princess Di and Elizabeth Hurley. He dated models. I do like a good dalliance. I think it was IMG agency. Yeah. Yeah. He bought the IMG agency and was CEO of that. And lots and lots of other things made, I think he bought, I think that he bought the Gulfstream company for like 880 million and sold it for 3.5 billion. I mean, crazy, crazy numbers. And so this is a guy that I kind of looked up to as a model for who I wanted to be when I was younger and kind of coming up and thinking, gosh, those private equity guys, that seems like a pretty good deal. Um, anyway, this, um, he ultimately got, uh, brain cancer later in his life, but still in his prime and, uh, and it killed him relatively quickly.

3:57And he had gone through multiple ghost writers to write a biography about him. And so this was an article that was in Vanity Fair that was written by the last ghost writer that he hired, uh, whose name was Rich Cohen. And basically it kind of goes through what it was like as Cohen was with him. And he kind of found that despite he's got a$40 million house that overlooks the Central Park and he's got a 30 some million dollar house in the Hamptons and his G5 and flies all over the world and all that. He's unmarried. He has no kids, although he did adopt two. He's a very difficult guy, but he's also a very generous guy.

4:44And so I like it for a couple of things. One is, so here are the three things I got out of it. One is the marginal utility of wealth at some point. When do you have enough that no matter how much more you have, it's really not going to make any difference. That's thing one. Thing two is the work-life balance, which we've talked about a few times. Um, here's a guy that was a passionate, amazing, uh, business person, but really skewed so far towards that, that he didn't have time for a personal life. He had kind of a, you know, a playboy lifestyle, but not like deep, meaningful relationships. And then, uh, and then this dichotomy between that, despite being a very difficult person and, and in several situations I read about kind of a jerk, he would also like, he'd argue with the waiter, but then he'd leave him a hundred dollar tip under the plate, you know, just one of those kinds of people.

5:47So I thought it would be interesting just to talk about him. He's, he's gone now. It also was interesting how, uh, if you don't have your health, you have nothing because, uh, he had everything and then he got a brain tumor and he was gone relatively quickly. And then after that, the legacy that he left while he had adopted two kids, I don't know what happened to them because it didn't say, but his houses were all sold off. His company was closed down and it was almost like he ceased to exist. Like he had never existed despite being this big personality in the world. So I threw all that out there just to say, it just kind of got me thinking about a lot of things.

6:29What do you think about all that? Yeah. I mean, this is the eternal struggle, entrepreneurial struggle, right? And I see people kind of vacillate between two extremes. And on one extreme, I see people who are so concerned about their legacy. And people ask me that all the time. Like, what do you want your legacy to be? What's your legacy? What's your legacy? You know, because they really want to make a massive, they're very impact centric. And they want to make a massive impact on the world. And they essentially want to not necessarily live forever, but be remembered forever. Right. They want to be important, but not just like as somebody who made a lot of money, but somebody who made a difference.

7:10And so when they say legacy, they're like, I just want my legacy to live on. I want to be remembered as somebody who cared. What do you think of that? I think that I will be forgotten within a generation by basically everybody except maybe. Yeah. So I don't think that extreme, that extreme doesn't, does very little to me, but then it can kind of make us feel a little bit like nihilistic. Well, you know, that none of it really matters. And then it, everything seems to shift over. And we know people like this as well, who it's, well, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. And so it's like, let's just maximize everything that we can have, you know, in this moment, achieve full maximum experience in this time, because, you know, nothing in the future matters.

7:57And I can, and I've seen that depending on what they mean by eat, drink and be merry, being very destructive, but also leading to kind of this life of, you know, well, why bother having, if I'm not going to be remembered, why bother getting married? Why bother having kids? And look, I'm not getting anybody who chooses to be single, you know, you know, married couples who choose not to have kids. I'm not making a judgment on that decision. But those seem to be the two extremes. And I just think they're both so fatally flawed. Also, both totally ego driven, I think. One is stamping your feet and pouting because you're not going to be remembered because you realize that most people will not be.

8:36and two, feeling that you've got to have people know you who don't know you now, years from now. Whereas I think the middle ground of you have an opportunity to have an impact around you every single day. And when you cease to exist, your impact will diminish over time because that's just how things are. And that's okay. So don't be the egomaniac, do the good things now. and maybe you'll accidentally be remembered. But I think like the plot to have, the plot to have a will, I get, you know, let me distribute my assets to my heirs when I'm dead. Let me give it to charity and do good things. But the idea of I want future generations to revere me, to me just seems so ego-based.

9:25And then the little kid reaction of, I'm not going to be remembered, so screw you. I'm going to hold my breath and I'm going to, you know, do all the things I'm not supposed to do, seems also crazy ego, crazy selfish. So how do you balance that out? I think, so Jason Cohen, who, he, he started WP Engine, which is a WordPress hosting solution. Didn't we pay rent to them in London for like a long time or something? No, that was a totally different company. But yeah, no, this is an Austin-based company, hosting company. And Jason has a really good blog. I think it's asmartbear.com, just to give credit.

10:04I don't remember exactly what he said, but his point was there's business, there's a spouser partner, there's kids, there's your health. And you can kind of do two of those really well at any given time. Like you can do two of them really, really well. And I remember reading that and thinking, well, that's not true. That's wrong. Like there's, you know, I don't believe that. I, you know, you got, you got to give me at least three. Cause like, you know, I got to have business and, you know, and he, and he made a point of saying that, that your, your, your relationship, you know, your, your romantic partner that is separate from your kids.

10:44You don't just get to bundle family in. And, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized, like he kind of makes a point. He makes a point. And at any given time, when I think about it, I think I'm really only being, we always have companies, right? And so business, I may not want to admit it, but that is what feeds everything else. So at any given time, if I'm being honest, it's probably number one, right? Now, if it stays number one constantly, that's a problem. And thankfully I've got a wife that will, will call me on that. Um, but there's business. And then there's times when, you know, my wife and I are, we're focusing on us.

11:28We're going on trips. We're doing things just the two of us. And frankly, my mom's watching the kids. And so like that week, I'm probably not the best dad in the world. Cause I'm not even there, but I am a good dad. Cause I'm loving their mom. Right. And then Emily and I will have conversations where it's like, yeah, I mean, this is, you know, like last week and this week, It's crazy with kids stuff, school stuff. So we're not getting as much quote unquote quality time together, but we know that it's a season. And I think that that's important is to be intentional about your seasons and to have seasons in life within the year.

11:59So, so many people want to define their businesses like I'm all in on this, you know, crazy life or I'm all in on legacy. The reality is there should be an ebb and flow. There should be seasons to the year in the same way that you've got a winter, spring, summer and fall. And so I think being intentional about that's important. The way that I do this is, I think it's gonna show up on your calendar. So my wife and I, we get together at the end of every year and I've got this calendar tool that I pull up where I can literally see on a single sheet of paper every day of the year. And I will highlight what are the days that I'm gonna be all in on business.

12:34There's a lot of Monday through Friday on that. But what are the weeks where we're gonna go and take a family trip together? and what are the times when just my wife and I are going to do things? What are the times that I'm going to look to do stuff, you know, for me, for rest renewal and they're different colors. And I can literally hold that away from my face and look at it and go, colorfully speaking, that's pretty balanced. Yeah. Right. When I just look at the colors, it feels balanced. That's been my answer to it. And in terms of, as long as I feel like I'm being true to the things that I say matter, which for me is obviously the business, obviously my marriage, my family, my faith, friends, love you, friends, mean it.

13:13You're a distant five. It's why kind of, you know, you and I are friends and thank God we own a company's together. We'd never hang out because we're busy. Um, true, true. But as long as, as long as I stay true to those things that are, that I say are a priority and it manifests itself in my calendar, I feel like I'm living a balanced and fulfilled life and that gets updated. There's going to come a time when the kids are all gone and grown. And now that'll be less than probably the time that I'm spending with my wife. It just will by virtue of the fact that they're living their own lives. But I don't worry about legacy at all.

13:48As long as I'm remembered by the kids, I'm good. Yeah. That's such an ego thing to me. Okay. So let's talk about that marginal utility of money? When do you have enough that it makes sense to channel down on the business? And is that even the right question? Because maybe you love doing the business stuff so much that you don't really want. But let's start with just money. Because a lot of people work to have freedom or to make money so they are able to have the things that they want. When do you think that you hit that point where it doesn't move the needle? Like an extra - Between like 10 to 20 million in liquid assets is kind of the first sort of phase where, are you necessarily buying a jet at that point?

14:44Probably not. But are you flying private if you want to? And frankly, once you're sort of flying private, I mean, what's up from there? Having a a yacht. Like I don't even charter those, like, you don't, you don't need that. Like, I mean, at some point the, the, I think that after about 10 to 20 million, the marginal utility, especially if you still have some income of, of liquid net worth, the marginal utility really does go away. There's nothing else that you need that you can't just go and get. You do have freedom. You can say, no, you can get away from all the, I should do this. And I do believe there's also a point where not only does the marginal utility go down, but it actually becomes a negative.

15:26Like when you were at hundreds of millions of dollars and billions of dollars, you now have a job that's called stewarding and shepherding that wealth. And that's not an easy job, but it is a full-time job unless you want to do what some folks have done, just give it all away. Which is by the way, why they've done that. I mean, yeah, there's tax benefits. Or hire a family officer. Right. They'll outsource it. Yeah. Yep. Yep. But then you've still got to manage the family office and oversee their investments. So that's been my experience. What do you think? You live in California, though. So for you, maybe it's like$50 million.

16:01I was trying to think about that as you were saying it. I think it's probably$100 million to where, like, okay, I have$100 million. Now some opportunity comes along and it's going to pay me$5 million. Unless I really want to do it, I'm not going to do it. If I have 50 million and I have the ability to increase my net worth by 10%, you know, I guess it's relative to the offers. But at 50, I probably don't feel set. You know, at 100, I feel set. That's, it's going to be 100, you know. I think it's going to be 100. Yeah. And I think for me, the reason part of the reason that my number is lower is because I know what I'm willing to do and invest because for kids, my oldest, you know, I got, man, months before that, that little jerk.

16:56And I call him a little jerk because when he turned five, I made him promise not to grow anymore. I made him promise to stay five. And he said he would. He did. He did. He lied to me. He just kept getting older. and you know he's going to graduate from high school this year he's going to go off in college and then that sets a pattern of every other year you know another kid leaves the nest and so I'm looking at like you know whoa the time that I have with them you know under my roof hopefully I know they do from time to time come back but the time I have with them is is limited and so I'm more prioritizing that so the idea of doing something that's going to give me a 10-20 percent net worth increase, if it means that I miss out on something significant today, may not be worth it.

17:4010 years, giddy up, you know, giddy up. Kids don't care. They're having their own kids. They want to be left alone. You know, I think we'll see. And I think a lot of that does speak to, you know, we're at different, slightly different stages and points of, you know, life and obligations. So that's probably a good perspective to have. Maybe in five, 10 years, it'll be a hundred million for me too. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I think if you're at that point, I, there, there isn't a lot that you can't do. You're kind of doing everything you want to do. You want to charter a plane. You want to charter a yacht.

18:14You want to buy a plane. You want to buy a yacht. You want to, you know, you can't maybe buy a football team, you know, that's that, that would be, you can buy partial ownership of, I mean, so many things are fractionalized now. Um, that if you know the thing, probably the bigger issue there is you don't know the right people. Yeah. True. Truthfully around 10 million, I think you can, you know, you can't do it all the time. Like you couldn't, you couldn't do all the things. I think when you have a hundred, you can do all the things if you want to, not that you would want to, but that you could.

18:45So that's, that's that marginal utility thing. And so I think, I think, um, for me though, So I'm always interested in like, I, I love what I do. I'm going to continue to do what I do for the rest of my life because as long as I can, because I love it. And so there, the marginal utility of the money isn't why I work. So the work-life balance thing really becomes a, um, this is a hobby that I really like doing a lot. It happens to pay well. Um, and I have to balance how much time am I putting into that versus those other things. So I think I like the, I like the, um, the four things that, uh, that who was it mentioned?

19:27Who was, who was the guy? Jason Cohen. Yeah. He said there, these are like the four or five, I think it's five things. I think it's, um, business, uh, relationship, like partner, uh, family. So kids and relatives, uh friends and health yeah pick two you can really do two uh in any at any given time really really well but i don't believe you have to pick two into perpetuity i think you could probably say this week you know i'm gonna do and things do need to compound or this month or this year there have been years where i if i'm being honest busy season in life busy season and kids kind of let the health go.

20:07Not proud of it, but I knew that I had to be intentional. And I think that's the key. If you're just intentional about what you're doing and you don't let it happen, or you're not deluding yourself into believing that you can do it all so that you truly feel guilt when you fall short, probably going to be okay. Yeah. I think you're right. Love to hear what you guys think about that. Just something that I thought was an interesting article of big, huge, from nothing, big, huge life, famous people, wealth in the news, in the papers all the time to gone in a second. And three years later, pretty much forgotten.

20:45That was an interesting study, a very extreme case, I think, of work over everything else. But I thought it was interesting. So love to hear what you guys think about that. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Business Lunch, and we'll see you next time.

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