Building a Purpose-Driven Architecture Practice Through Business Clarity and Community Impact | 699

0:00Carolina Civarolo: You should be making money. Why would you have a business that doesn't make money? Why are we doing it? We could be doing something else.

0:06Erick Darbo Diaz: Hello, Architect Nation, and welcome back. This is the right place for you if you run an architectural practice. On today's episode, you will discover why building a practice in a place everyone else overlooks can quietly become your greatest advantage and how that changes the kind of work that you're able to do. What really happens when two architects share both a business and a life and how clear roles, trust and tension can actually sharpen decisions instead of slow them down. How a simple shift from just doing good work to truly understanding the business can completely transform the trajectory of a firm without changing its core values.

0:46Erick Darbo Diaz: Today, you're going to meet a duo who've done something very intentional. They didn't chase the biggest cities or the loudest opportunities. Instead, they chose to root themselves in the Rio Grande Valley and build a practice that's deeply connected to people, place and the long term impact of their work. Over time, they've grown a practice into a team that's not only designing thoughtful projects, but actively shaping the future of their community through education, mentorship and a clear sense of purpose on how they operate. I'm excited for you to hear a couple of my favorite people, Eric Darbo-Diaz and Carolina Sivarolo, how they are doing it and what it really takes to build something that lasts.

1:29Erick Darbo Diaz: And now a word from today's sponsor. A while ago, we began to hear reports of a company that was helping some of our clients build remote teams. We looked into it more closely and discovered the company World Teams that was helping small architectural practitioners build remote teams that were both capable and qualified. We were intrigued by another business that are addressing one of the critical pain points for small architectural practices, which is the ability to grow and shrink a team effectively, to be able to handle higher workflow without having to staff up significantly, and also being very sensitive about labor costs.

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2:43Erick Darbo Diaz: To download a free guide for building a remote team for a small architectural practice, go to businessofarchitecture.com forward slash world teams. That's one word, businessofarchitecture.com forward slash world teams. As a reminder, sponsorship is not an endorsement and you must do your own due diligence before entering into any business relationship. Go to businessofarchitecture.com forward slash world teams. Carolina, Eric, welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you both?

3:14Carolina Civarolo: We're good. Thank you for having us, Ryan.

3:17Erick Darbo Diaz: We're wonderful. I'm very excited to finally have you on the podcast. I feel like I've had you on the show multiple times before, but it's only because we talk all the time that I know, I feel like I know you guys so well, and I'm surprised we haven't had you on the show. So I'm really, really delighted that we get to talk and tell your story for our audience because what you guys have been up to has been amazing. I'll give a little introduction for you. Your co-founders, Orange Made Architect, your husband and wife team, and you're developing, building a purpose-driven practice in South Texas.

4:00Erick Darbo Diaz: You started in 2013, is that right? That's correct. Yes, sir. and you've grown your team you've got about eight to ten people now a clear mission to elevate the communities of the lower Rio Grande Valley through thoughtful grounded architecture both of you registered architects Carolina you've worked across continents Houston Barcelona you had a short stint in Morales and Eric your co-founder education community leadership and both of you have got a strong mission to have an architecture practice which is deeply rooted in place and of course you have been business of architecture students members clients since 2020 and have quickly become some of our favorite people in the whole wide world so carolina eric welcome to the business of architecture and perhaps we'll do a little uh historical journey and you guys could take us back to 2013 and you can tell us what was happening in your lives that made you decide that you wanted to start Orange Made Together.

5:09Carolina Civarolo: I'll let Eric start because it was his big dream.

5:13Erick Darbo Diaz: So in 2013 I was actually in Barcelona that summer finishing up my master's degree getting a master's of science in architecture so that I could continue my educational journey and my tenure at the University of Texas in Brownsville. In that time period, in that summer, I visited, we had the opportunity to visit a lot of architectural studios, young architectural practices in the city of Barcelona, and the majority of them that we visited were husband and wife's young teams that were starting of practices and doing great work in Barcelona. And it really inspired me to rethink my future and to decide and to want to start a practice with Carolina back in the Rio Grande Valley in McAllen, Texas.

6:14Erick Darbo Diaz: And also at the same time, there were some issues with the university. the university was evolving into a bigger institution and the program, the architecture program that I was employed with was also transitioning from the university to the community college. And also around the same time, we had our first born, Darbo. And I was living in McAllen, working in Brownsville and the idea of traveling back and forth, having a child, it just didn't sound sexy anymore. And it sounded a lot more sexy to start a practice in architecture, not knowing what we were getting ourselves into. But yeah, and I always felt that if I had a good practice, I could always teach.

7:03Erick Darbo Diaz: But if I taught, I may never have a good practice. And that sort of mindset set the stage for Orange May.

7:11Carolina Civarolo: And then you started it and I refused to join. I was so scared that we would both be starting a business and not have a stable income or, you know, I was pregnant with my second child and I had a newborn and it was just, it was too much to think that we would risk it all. So I spent several months just pondering if I should leave. I was working at another architecture practice and I guess it came to a point after I had my second one a few months in I was like okay I'm gonna stay home I'm gonna help Eric with this practice and we're gonna do it so that's where we started in our kitchen we

7:56Erick Darbo Diaz: started in our kitchen dining room table I got like a really good startup like any good business should start in the on the kitchen on the kitchen table yeah yeah um Eric how long were you practicing by yourself before carolina joined

8:15Erick Darbo Diaz: probably about a year six to yeah about a year i was practicing by myself she was helping me out she would come you know we were work we would do things at night uh we would practice she would always there's always a phone call away i never needed any advice um i was also i had the opportunity to partner with my old boss. And we were able to work on projects together, even though we were separate entities. And the collaboration was also very helpful at the time and very exciting. We were, you know, as a startup, it's really hard to get some exciting work. And he, Di Senio Inc., was in a place in their tenure that they didn't want to, after the Great Recession, They didn't want to grow the practice like they had prior to the recession.

9:07Erick Darbo Diaz: And I was starting a practice. And so it just felt like a natural partnership. And we made it work. And we've been partnering on small projects and projects ever since. So when Carolina joined, I think it was just sort of this natural evolution of the practice that occurred and strengthened the practice. a lot more we had two architects instead of just one when uh obviously you guys have you're well traveled you've seen a lot of architecture around the world you've spent time in europe why the rio grande valley what was it that called yourself to root yourselves there in practice for me it was easy i was born and raised in mccallum texas I left the valley to study architecture, traveled, like you said, returned without ever thinking I was going to stay.

10:13Erick Darbo Diaz: I think most young professionals in the Rio Grande Valley or from the Rio Grande Valley think the same thing as I do. They want to leave. They want to see bigger things. They want to live in bigger cities. When I returned, though, I realized the potential that the Rio Grande Valley has to offer in not only in the building built environment, but also the community, the people, the culture. It was a great starting point to build a practice that didn't quite exist. exist. There was other practices. The practices that existed were established practices. So there were very few startup young architecture firms in the Rio Grande Valley at the time.

11:02Erick Darbo Diaz: And I thought that was a great opportunity for us to really harness, design, experiment. The area was a low cost of living, still is very low cost of living compared to the rest of the country so it just had a lot of elements that uh that I didn't realize at the time were important until I recognized them and when I came back and tell us a little bit about um where you guys met

11:32Carolina Civarolo: we met in architecture school I grew up in Houston and started architecture school and then Eric joined in the second year when I was in my second year and that's where I met him and I felt like I was in love with him the whole time he didn't realize it for several years

11:50Erick Darbo Diaz: so so crazy story Ryan I actually failed my first year of architecture school yay that's the best architects always do and and I uh it was it was a blessing in disguise right in hindsight. But I failed. It really questioned my commitment to architecture and what I really wanted to do. I really wanted to be an architect when I failed. Was I capable? Was I good enough? All these emotions came into mind. That summer that I failed, I ended up in a construction site

12:34Erick Darbo Diaz: basically building low-income houses. And, and it was a very, very hot summer here in the Rio Grande Valley. And I started and I, the reason why I joined the construction site was I really wanted to understand how buildings are built. And so in negotiating this job, I was like, well, I want to, I want to spend a week or two weeks with every trade, you know, from foundation all the way to painting to selling the product. it. And it was an eight-week program. It was like crash course in construction. And I ended up doing that. And I fell in love with the built environment again in a different capacity.

13:16Erick Darbo Diaz: And I also realized that I wanted to, I'd rather be on the inside of that office rather than the outside of the office doing the, you know, building the buildings. I wanted to, I felt like I had a bigger impact in designing these buildings and on paper and guiding that, those design solutions through construction. And so that's why I ended up back at University of Houston in Carolina's year. And we just so happened to sit next to each other and the rest is history. Amazing, amazing. And then so obviously you guys, you traveled and went to Barcelona and you kind of were there together and then both decided to come back to Macallan.

13:57Carolina Civarolo: Yes, and he decided to propose to me while we were designing a house in mccowan um eric had this um urge to design something that was a house and he was given the opportunity so he was we designed it you know in in different locations but then he started the construction and that's when he proposed and he was like hey i've got a perfect job for you you've got to come finish building this house

14:29Erick Darbo Diaz: yeah you old romantic eric we somehow find ourselves around architecture some form of fashion

14:38Carolina Civarolo: and so we designed and built a house and it's on orange street so hence you know we started our practice like 15 years later but the name orange made stems from that first project that i was into.

14:56Carolina Civarolo: So it was a true labor of love. I will say, you know, what's wild is to think back 20, 25 years. It was really hard. No one, no one respected me on the job site. They're like, who's this woman on the site? Like it was, it was hard, but we pushed through it and built it. And then we ended up living in it and we still live there today. So it was a great project for

15:21Erick Darbo Diaz: well let's let's dive in a little bit about the husband and wife dynamic because i mean as you know here at business of architecture we reckon it's probably about 25 of the firms that we talk with have a husband and wife partnership either it's two architects or one of them is the architect one of them is doing another supporting role in the firm but it's incredibly common um how do you guys divide the roles between you and what happens when there's conflict there's two questions you can break them up how you like so i think the way we divide our roles is naturally i would say carolina has her her needs and wants and i have my needs and wants in the practice and they so happen to be the opposite ends of the business uh thank god and uh and she really enjoys the the the management the uh the administrative side of things the uh the hr side of things the office management side of things and i not that she doesn't enjoy design she does dabble in design and we need her to dabble in design and come in and set things straight uh from most of the time but uh but i really dabble I like the people.

16:41Erick Darbo Diaz: I really enjoy our clients. I really enjoy our staff. I really enjoy the

16:51Erick Darbo Diaz: teacher inside of me, the instructor inside of me always comes out in the studio and in life and in the practice of architecture and the practice of life. And so that's where I really connect and make an impact in my life is through the people and through the designs that we get to enjoy and the impacts that we make after we design it and after it's built with the community. So I guess those are the two roles that it just sort of happened naturally without us arguing about it or without us really saying, you're going to do this, I'm going to do that. I think that's the beauty of our relationship.

17:31Erick Darbo Diaz: It's always been that way, Brian.

17:32Carolina Civarolo: we somehow understand each other and I mean literally we're with each other almost 24 hours a day and people think that's crazy but I can't imagine doing this with someone else and I don't know that I would do it by myself I feel like there's something great about having a partner whether it is your husband or not that you have someone to have feedback with at that level as a business owner so I think that's really important and helpful.

18:05Erick Darbo Diaz: Is there ever a time when like you need to be say husband or wife rather than CEO or CFO like you know you're dealing with something in the business and there's a there's a distinction between you know what now's the time for me to be the husband with Carolina rather than business partner or does that never there isn't that distinction that's a really good question i think for me i i feel like the lines are so blurred that it well for me when i when i step out of the office and i go home i really do my best to not think about work and not and try to be the husband the father uh the sibling the the son that i that i knew that i wanted um does that does that always happen no but But I try to do my best.

18:59Erick Darbo Diaz: And I think Carolina also does her best in doing that as well. Keeping those separated, business and home life.

19:07Carolina Civarolo: But it's not separated.

19:09Erick Darbo Diaz: But no, it's really hard. I think it's really, really difficult.

19:13Carolina Civarolo: I don't see it as two distinct things. It's who we are. The business is who we are. It's part of us. I can't really say I turn it off. I do turn off the work part of it, but it's still within me. Like I feel like we are orange made and whether we're at home or whether we're in the office or whether we're out in the public, we're just, that's who we are.

19:37Erick Darbo Diaz: I think there, maybe there's times where I ask Carolina, hey, I need you to put on this hat, not that hat, just to sort of distinguish it. But Carolina's right. I think that that's who we are. It's our identity. It's been our identity. And I think we just take the time sometimes to just give each other feedback.

20:00Carolina Civarolo: If I saw Eric do something a certain way, either with the staff or with the client, I'll tell him later, like, hey, maybe you should tone it down. Or maybe you should have done this. But we try to be courteous of each other because it could be easy to argue and bicker in front of everyone all the time. People say we do it in a nice way. There is still that back and forth banter that is more husband and wife-ish than professional. I don't know.

20:32Erick Darbo Diaz: And I think, yeah, that comes basically because we're just so comfortable with each other. I think that it's the comfort level that we have with each other. We understand, we respect each other. We do understand how far we can take it. We understand where the boundaries are. And yeah, so it's really hard to distinguish one from the other. Is there anything that you kind of fundamentally disagree on when it comes to architecture or the business?

21:03Carolina Civarolo: For a long time, I think I always disagreed with growing or I never thought we would grow to where we are today. And I think that was the hardest for Eric. I didn't have this like vision of growth. To me, it was like slowly but surely, and you have to be meticulous and careful and not hire when we don't need to, those kinds of things. But I think after many years of doing business of architecture and realizing the people and the team that we have is really one of the most important things we've done, more so than some buildings. So I think I've learned to now understand where Eric was coming from when we would argue about that.

21:43Carolina Civarolo: I think that was one of the hardest things for me.

21:46Erick Darbo Diaz: Carolina is very result driven. If she doesn't have the results or the how in front of her, she won't, she doesn't, she doesn't, it's not real. It's not a real thing. And I've always been very driven by sort of the wind, like, I don't know, like a vision. Like, I don't know how to explain it, but I've always been, I know what I want. I know how, I don't know how to get there, but I I have this feeling and maybe that's the right words. There's this feeling that if we're on the right path and if we were, we were on the right path that we were to get there with, with good work and hard work and so forth.

22:23Erick Darbo Diaz: I've, I've learned that that's through the business of architecture. I've learned that there's tools and, and methods and, and, and different ways of, of achieving that now that, that, that have changed my my course a little bit but uh but i still i'm still driven by that feeling that you know we can grow if we're on the right path essentially do you think your partnership being husband and wife is a competitive advantage a competitive advantage or does it come with hidden

22:59Carolina Civarolo: costs i always think it's a strength i always even with clients that you relate like there's a female way of thinking there's a male way of thinking there's just this like balance and this challenging of ideas and i think it's uh it gives you more chances of someone relating to you so they may relate with eric and that's a good thing or they may relate with me so there's a double a chance of them liking us or they like both of them that's even better right yes i think

23:34Erick Darbo Diaz: it's it's it's an advantage to uh do what we do and uh i agree with carolina that that that it's it's it's not necessarily competitive we never saw each other as competitive i've always been jealous of her talents uh but not it's not a competitive she just has her her her talents that she's really good at, that she's amazing at. I believe I've got some on my end. I mean, when I say competitive, I mean it's a competitive advantage in the marketplace. I think so. I think so. I think we're one of the, are we the only? We're one of the few, if not the only husband and wife team in the Rio Grande Valley.

24:17We certainly were when we started

24:20Erick Darbo Diaz: and I thought that was a huge competitive edge there's the different frames of thought and the different angles that we bring to the table are different even though we're both latinos we but we do have different cultures that we bring to the table uh and and we're trying to bring different ideas to the river and valley has the business ever put pressure on the relationship yes yes like any business it puts pressure on uh you know when things are good things are good when things aren't so good things aren't so good uh and yes that uh that could put pressure on the home life we we've learned to uh to to you know put securities in place to make sure that uh that what happens at the office won't affect our home life too much and, and keep our quality of life and standard of living, uh, where we want it to be.

25:23Carolina Civarolo: And I think it was harder in the beginning of the business than it is now. I think we've learned so much and you realize that something terrible might happen today. And when it does, we're just going to have to figure it out and go with it and nothing nothing terrible so terrible has happened that we can't get past it right so I think you start to realize okay it's just part of running a business right is someone going to quit today is someone going to um something terrible going to happen on a building today like we've learned to realize that that's just part of the business and not that it was just

26:01Erick Darbo Diaz: something terrible happening to us let's move on a little bit and talk about um design philosophy and kind of community impact and and their leadership i think one of the things that's most exciting about you guys as a organization is your commitment to your locale and i've always found that really interesting that that there's a real mission to bring exemplar architecture to the Rio Grande Valley, McAllen. What do you mean when you talk about thoughtful and grounded architecture? What does that actually mean? And then perhaps we can talk a little bit about what it's about for you to design for your own community versus designing for somewhere else.

26:51I think I'm not originally from the Valley.

26:55Carolina Civarolo: I've been here over 20 years. I realized how much it needs thoughtful architecture and not just thoughtful and like that it's beautiful, thoughtful and that it's resourceful with a budget. We live in one of the poorest counties in the country, so we have very small project budgets compared to other places across the country. So when we compare ourselves to some of our colleagues that we went to school with, I'm like, what do you mean you have a$10 million budget? Like, that's like, sounds crazy to us. So we've had to create beautiful designs with the people here with the community that are with small budgets.

27:40Carolina Civarolo: So I think it's that being resourceful and it also makes it fun, but it makes it hard. It's just working together. I think, you know, a lot of our clients, you know, really are trying to use every dollar well and that we want to do the same with them. And as this community is growing, you realize that so many people in the community have that same intention is to make something better for all of us here. and I think that's why we do it and in the way we do it.

28:12Erick Darbo Diaz: Yeah, I totally agree with Carolina. I think she nailed it right on that. For me, growing up and born and raised in the Rio Grande Valley and coming back and practicing architecture in the Rio Grande Valley, it's personal in a sense. It's very personal. And we want to make the biggest impact possible with the buildings that we're working on in the community. And whenever we see a thoughtful design, even if it didn't come from our practice, we celebrate it. And I believe that that's the I think the whole community celebrates something special. They might not know why it's special or what makes it different.

28:50Erick Darbo Diaz: And it could be just a simple it could be that an architect was hired for the project versus not a non-architect designer. And so it really does make a difference in the community when architects are part of the projects and we are able to create these thoughtful interventions and celebrate them. To me, I think it's an honor to be able to do architecture in the Rio Grande Valley. It's an honor to just practice architecture and celebrate these buildings. we may not we know that we could they could have always been a little bit better and we always push ourselves to making them a little bit better with the means that we have but yeah being able to practice architecture in one of the in one of the the poorest counties in the country is is an honor can you give us an example of a project that you guys are particularly proud of that you felt actually made quite a significant difference or change something in the community

29:53Carolina Civarolo: I think right now that we finally reached, you know, because we've had to start, you know, with small projects and we finally built up to where I now we're doing more projects that focus on this. I think right now we're helping the Boys and Girls Club of McAllen with a project. And it is just so awesome to see that this project, which is renovating in an old elementary school into one of their centers, is just going to impact so many kids. And then to think those kids have more opportunity because of this space and what they're going to bring to the valley in the future. So it's like this thing that you're just like, wow, something can have this impact now in someone's life as a child that can later in the future bring so much to this community.

30:43Carolina Civarolo: I think that's pretty, pretty cool.

30:46Erick Darbo Diaz: Yeah, I think all of our projects create impacts. You know, we're selfish in the sense that they're all our babies.

30:55Carolina Civarolo: We had a grand opening for a bank project. And so we've worked with lots of community banks and took the entire staff and everyone realized like, wow, a bank and it's not just the building itself. I think it's just more what a community bank does, right, to loan money to people who have dreams to build something here, right? It's kind of this like great circle of like they are impacting the community as a bank and as a lender and that we're able to provide a facility for that is pretty cool. because you realize there's this like trickle effect of so many people that are touched by just using a bank.

31:33Yeah.

31:34Erick Darbo Diaz: Yeah. I mean, and another project that comes to mind is early in our careers, we did a PPEC. And PPEC is it stands for Prescribed Pediatric Extended Care Center. Yes. PPEC. And and it was one of the first facilities in the state of Texas to to be built and designed and built in the state of Texas. And we did this 10 years ago when we were first, we were still drawing ourselves. We were still doing a lot of the work ourselves. And to be able to make an impact in the community, and this was in Brownsville where this facility was very much needed. And to be able to design and had it built in a budget was quite amazing for us.

32:22Erick Darbo Diaz: I think it did help us see and understand what that impact was going to make for the community, not just for the design. It was a nice intervention. We got to do some nice little moves on the project. Simple but nice. And it's still operating today. And it's still one of the few BPECs in the state of Texas that's still operating today. So we're very proud of that. I still think that's one of those moments of joy that architecture can bring to the table. But even our office, it used to be an old bar. It was always a bar until it became an architecture studio. And just the impact that renovating this building from what it was to what it is and the impact that it's had in its community and the surrounding buildings around it, you know, is amazing to us.

33:20Erick Darbo Diaz: It really is a joy to be able to operate in this community and in our building that has truly made an impact. And it raises the standard of the level of care around us. It creates synergy in the community. And you hear it, and we know because we hear it. People tell us, strangers tell us.

33:40Carolina Civarolo: The mailman loves coming to our office.

33:46Erick Darbo Diaz: That's awesome. So, you know, from a bar to an office that creates, and then that office spurs more impact around the community. It's just really nice. It's nice to hear. It's nice to say it. It's nice to experience it. Do you think in general that architects underestimate their role in shaping social outcomes? Yes. I do. I do.

34:13Carolina Civarolo: I agree. We don't, yeah, sometimes you don't even realize it till later or the impact that that space you helped create has made. So, yeah, I think we hold ourselves back from realizing what architects can truly, truly do.

34:31Erick Darbo Diaz: I think we're too hard on ourselves. you know if we don't get i think we're too hard on ourselves if we don't get the exact project that we thought of or revision or we put on paper we found we we think we're failures we we put uh too much of a burden on ourselves that that it isn't uh it's that's not the project that we design and i think that's that's wrong i think we need to we need to step back and uh and look at the bigger picture and the bigger impact that buildings have in our community even if it's just one small move in the building. And it could be, I don't know, mechanical systems that happen in the building that make an impact in the community.

35:12Erick Darbo Diaz: And people really don't understand that. People don't talk about it unless architects talk about it, unless the building owners talk about it, unless we make it known to the world that we've made an impact in such a small way. so I do think that that we underestimate ourselves Can you share with us a little bit about the idea of the architecture school in McAllen and how that's evolved and what was the underlying motives for this because this is always one of my why working with you guys has been so exciting is because there's been this really powerful vision for shaping the kind of wider society but having a longer lasting impact with that's much more intimate and the idea of the architecture school um has been has been quite integral to that so the architecture school is a has always been a dream ever since i i i was in architectural education at the university of texas in brownsville which only happened to be the first two years of architecture school.

36:24Erick Darbo Diaz: So it only offered an associate of architecture, associates of science and architecture at the time. And so the idea of expanding on that degree plan, making it a four-year program, establishing a true architecture program in the Rio Grande Valley is something amazing to me. First, because the closest architecture program to us is about 250 miles away. And it's very, again, touching back on the fact that we're the poorest county in the country, it's very difficult for a lot of our students, a lot of our population, to be able to leave the Rio Grande Valley to study architecture. And so to be able to bring that kind of program or establish a program like that in North Carolina is huge, just in that capacity for us i always believe that there is a connection between better planning better societies better communities when there is an architecture program in place and these ideas are talked about these these uh these problems are being discussed not only internally in the studios but also get uh community driven and then you know cities and communities are able to participate in the studio, in the design studios with students.

37:49And so it's always been

37:52Erick Darbo Diaz: a dream that our community will be a better community and better planned community when, if and when this school happens. Now, today, those are my thoughts five years ago. And now today, yes, we are working towards a school of architecture, but this idea of why couldn't our practice be, you know, be the school of architecture or be a school of architecture within the practice of architecture, it came to our, came to my, our realization. And so how do we, how do we establish, how do we create our own school of architecture within our own practice was, was basically what's going to be asked. And, and, you know, When we realized why couldn't we do it and establish something like that or see it that way, frame it that way, it just opened up so many possibilities in our practice and bringing in young talent from other places or from here that studied in other places that want to practice back here.

39:03Carolina Civarolo: and giving the opportunity to become great architects for this community and see that there is value here and that you can do great architecture here in the Valley.

39:16Erick Darbo Diaz: And just reframing our practice that way just so opened up so many different possibilities with our staff, with our people, with the community and pushing them to develop into you know meaningful architects meaningful uh students of architecture and i think that's also brought in a lot of talent to our to our area and to our practice it's really interesting because obviously you guys have spent a lot of time in europe you've studied in europe um you're both of latin heritage do you think that the way that different parts of the world interact and talk about architecture just as a generalized society is different from say where you are yes and no so i think that where we are in the united states it's it's treated differently architectural education you know you gotta you gotta go to school then you gotta get you gotta get experience and then you can you take the exams and you become a licensed architect you know in other places in other parts of the world just 10 minutes away you go to school and once you finish your school then you become licensed after that and and so I say yes and no because we do have a lot of influence from Mexico developers from Mexico that believe that the architect is the is the developer is the planner and developer and the contractor in all-in-one or to practice that sees the project all the way through.

40:58And no, because legally it doesn't work that way.

41:04Erick Darbo Diaz: It's very different the way we practice architecture here in the United States. And so I think that it's an interesting dynamic that we face here. What do you think, Phil?

41:17Carolina Civarolo: I don't know, Ryan. Were you asking in regards to education or just architecture in general?

41:21Erick Darbo Diaz: just both really and i think i mean i think architecture in general is is an interesting one to consider like how does the local community talk about architecture versus other places i think the the other side of the coin is that we live you know the developers the self-made developers have been very successful here. And they haven't had the need or the want or the they don't realize the value that an architect can bring to their projects because they've been so successful without architects. And so that's also been a struggle in our community is trying to share our value and educate these developers that to utilize architects in a positive manner and that we could bring positive results to their projects.

42:22Carolina Civarolo: I think as a whole, the community does want something better. They do. They see it in other cities. They see it on TV. However they see it, They know that we deserve those same things. And I think sometimes, I don't know if it's a money thing that sometimes that can't be fully achieved. But as we're growing, I think we need to all come together and realize that we do deserve these things and that we need to fight for them. And I think we have lots of our clients believe the same thing. So we fight together to create something. Right. And it does sometimes take a little more energy and people still sometimes are frustrated because why don't we have what a larger city has?

43:13Carolina Civarolo: But that city has been around for, you know, many more years than we have. And I think it's that impatience that we all have to to want that right away. And sometimes I think architecture just takes a long time and it takes a long time to develop things. And I think that's what's hard to wrap our minds around today when everything wants to be fast and quick.

43:36Erick Darbo Diaz: end yeah and and i think what's what's interesting about the the idea of the school is that there is something about the school which is kind of it's educating and it's educating not just the people that are participating in it but it's educating the kind of wider populace or maybe not even educating but it's advocating for what architecture can be because it's advocating for the possibility of architecture and i've always gotten that sense from you guys that there's a strong advocacy for the potential and the possibility of what architecture can do and then it's kind of propagating that message outwards and there's a there's a lot in that

44:17Carolina Civarolo: like everybody wins in that context yes and it might not be maybe we don't benefit it as much now because it's going to be this long-term thing but we know that the future community whether we're here or not is going to benefit from that you know and not they're not going to be someone a student here that's like man i wish i could have started architecture but now i'm an engineer and you know we need more architects here yes because the population here keeps growing but

44:48Erick Darbo Diaz: the popular the architectural population has been stagnant for the last 20 years and uh in the communities where where the amount of growth that we experienced in the last 20 years it can really use more architects

45:06let's talk a little bit about when you guys joined business of architecture

45:11Erick Darbo Diaz: and the business side of the practice and how the business side maybe it wasn't complementing the vision to begin with and what you guys have done in order to to kind of join the vision with the the kind of underpinnings of finance and business before you joined the business of architecture what were some of the challenges that you guys were dealing with

45:35Carolina Civarolo: what was working and what wasn't working what wasn't working I felt like we were just going in circles I was like we're always going to be in this like maybe it was like four of us at that moment when we were I had this like what are we doing we're just working away and working and working and working. And we're not, we're not moving forward. We're just like spinning our wheels. Something is not right. I knew we could do architecture. I knew that was fine. And Eric was like, if we just keep doing good architecture, we're going to have a good business. And I'm like, something is just didn't feel right.

46:11Carolina Civarolo: And, you know, I was like frustrated and I was like, I knew we needed to do something else. You know, every time we had to like write a contract or do something, we were like, who do we call? Who do we ask? We don't know what we're doing. No one taught us how to run a business in architecture school. So it was like, you're just like thrown out into the real world and good luck, you know, and we were, we had projects, but we didn't know how much we should charge. We didn't know how to, how to do things. What was the point of anything as a business? What should we look at? Are we doing good? Are we doing bad.

46:52Carolina Civarolo: We just looked at a bank account number and we thought that was the measure of what was going on in the office.

46:59Erick Darbo Diaz: Yeah, I think everything that Carolina said is true. And it took me a long time to come to that realization because I was, again, going back to what I said earlier, I had a feeling that if we just were on the right path, everything would be okay. And then that was partially correct the other part of the question was everything that carolina's just post and put on the table and how do we you know where do we how do we learn that where do we learn that

47:27Carolina Civarolo: uh and as a question right and i think architects as a whole aren't very some are not very forthcoming on how things are in the architecture practice or they're they're not gonna they don't want to help you because they're helping themselves and or they just don't know or they don't know either so it was just like who who do we ask you know and we felt alone for I felt alone in that moment like what's next I knew there was something better than what we were doing because we were doing our best we do have the right intentions we just needed that that extra push in the right direction but we didn't know where that was exactly and one day I just I kept seeing you know ads for the business of architecture and I was like I'm gonna call these people what could go wrong and you know Eric how do you know they're for real and I'm like I don't know but you know I can just sit here and not do anything about it and I called and I was like these people are speaking to me they understand what what I'm feeling and what could hurt you know like we're already in this position and I was like okay and we joined and it was COVID shut down the next week two weeks later and we were like what did we just do we're spending this money and now we have no business and the business is closed so it was like this like really weird moment in time but I think because we were part of it it helped us not make any rash decisions and I just remember that this This is when the tide is low.

49:13Carolina Civarolo: It gives you the opportunity to think. And it did. It allowed us to analyze everything we were doing in our business.

49:23Erick Darbo Diaz: And what was missing.

49:25Carolina Civarolo: And in a calm way. Because sometimes architecture business can be just super hectic and fast-paced. And you don't have time to think. And it was actually a blessing in disguise that it was during COVID.

49:39Erick Darbo Diaz: Actually, it was.

49:40Carolina Civarolo: that we started this program, helped us realize, you know, what are the metrics we should look at, that there was a better way of doing things. And it's been great. For me, it's helped me understand what the what our roles are in this business and where we want,

49:59Erick Darbo Diaz: what do we what we choose our roles to be. And, and what I think you've mentioned it, Ryan in the past and you know Norman Foster said the greatest the greatest project I ever worked on was my business and I think about that a lot and and I and it is it is one of my greatest projects it is our greatest project that we've ever worked on is our business making it better improving it we do want it to outlast us we do want it to to make a greater impact than been just caroline and eric and uh and and i think the business of architecture has that's the path that the business of architecture has put us on love it um you've we mentioned here a bit about data and tracking and you're i'm happy to say you're one of the very few now this is a message to anyone else who's considering to come on the podcast is that we send out a little questionnaire uh that asks about money and financials okay And I would say 99 % of all of BOA podcast interviewees, and we turn a lot of people down because of this, they don't want to talk about money.

51:13Erick Darbo Diaz: They don't want to talk about metrics. And obviously, you guys are our clients. And all of the, you know, questions about finance, you're like, yes, yes, yes, we do that. We do that. We've got numbers here. We've got, we track utilization. We track realization. We know our revenue per employee. and also you can start to use that as evidence to show what you guys have been doing to make a change and perhaps we can talk about a few of those numbers. The one that we always look at, you know, the kind of first go-to one is the performance ratio which is the net operating revenue per full-time equivalent employee and we have a target at BOA which we like to set every client to hit is the 200 club and you guys have been making amazing amazing strides towards that and perhaps you could tell us a little bit about like where you were and where you are now

52:08Carolina Civarolo: and what's been working that is something I'm very proud of so I think when we started we kept hearing this 200 club and I was like what I'm never going to reach this number and we were like in the 75 club which was always in the red and I was like what is this and even in the 75 club right we were still paying the team keeping the lights on doing great work so we were like we're fine everything's okay like I'm not having to you know sell my child to paint someone but you know and Aries like everything's fine and I'm like no we could do so much better yes and so slowly but surely we started realizing right are we doing the right projects are we charging enough are are we charging frequently enough um all those things really started to make a difference and we realized like slowly but surely we are now double that right so and with the same amount with the same amount of people yes and now we're trying it's

53:16Erick Darbo Diaz: it's amazing and and just as like and as you're you're saying earlier the context as well you're in one of the poorest counties and it's and it's you know you you've just started to become really efficient and deliver what you're doing and now you've been able to double that net operating revenue per per full-time equivalent employee it's great yes so it's that is awesome and and

53:40Carolina Civarolo: that is like setting up you know metrics that we're actually tracking and looking at on a constant basis and you do see the difference and I mean I never worked anywhere where we would track the hours of a project so we just thought oh you're just doing a project and who cares how long you take and I realized how detrimental that is and now tracking the hours and you know getting everyone to do a timesheet and seeing how long does a project actually take has been so helpful in creating new proposals because you have all this like data to look at how long did this really take is that a project we should be doing or shouldn't be doing what can we fix to make it more efficient.

54:28And in the end, like we realized that you should be making money.

54:34Carolina Civarolo: Why would you have a business that doesn't make money? Why are we doing it? We could be doing something else and not be so stressed. So a client needs to get a benefit. And as an architect, we should also get a benefit. So we just clearly tell the owner, this has to work for both of us. And if it doesn't, there's no partnership here like why would we do this yeah and i think for me i guess my biggest

55:01Erick Darbo Diaz: realization was you know we're not operating we're not a non-profit we are for-profit organization but yeah i always had this mentality that architects were a non-profit that as long as we were making enough money to survive we're good we're just doing good architecture doing and And it wasn't until the business of architecture instilled in us and made us realize or made me realize that if we were making a slight profit and we're making a better profit and that profit continues to be better and better every time, then we could grow the business in different ways. We could get better.

55:39Carolina Civarolo: We could do better architecture.

55:41Erick Darbo Diaz: We could do better architecture. We could support better salaries. We could support better talent. We could support a better building. We can do so much more impact in our community in this idea of practice of architecture, the architectural education practice, everything that we've already talked about can get bigger and bigger and bigger. Because we're not going to use that money in a poor fashion, irresponsibly. and uh and i think that's what sort of helped us also continue to be better and move that i guess the path that we were on that i always thought we were on you know shift over to another path that help us go in that direction and move us in that direction and i think that's also been very motivating in the sense as part of the design of the practice and the design of the business and the it's the best project because we're constantly trying to make it better and better and better And these, you know, this data, this measures that we collect, it also helps us understand, is our staff growing?

56:48Erick Darbo Diaz: Is our staff getting better at what they're doing? You know, they could see themselves now, am I getting better at what I'm doing based on the projects that I'm working on? And so it really, it helps in so many different levels. So useful. one of the other data points that you've got which is very strong is your realization rate and obviously the realization rate is the percentage of work that you've that you've actually done that you bill for and a lot of companies you know they're not up at that 100 % level they're kind of 50 % so what that means is that they're doing you know they're doing 100 hours worth of work on something and they're only billing for 50 % of the work that they've done your realization is very strong what is it that you're doing differently from most firms

57:44Carolina Civarolo: I think finally we started you know sharing with the team the numbers and the business side and and making them realize like that time is money and I think no one ever told us that so So I think when they realized that we're like, hey, if we all do better, it's better for everyone here. It's not just better for me and Eric. It's better for all your salaries, all the fun things we want to do, better tools. And I think that clicked with everyone. And we also felt better, like this weight off of us, like, why am I holding all this in? And I'm the one that has that pressure of like, this project isn't succeeding.

58:29Carolina Civarolo: That one is. And it's finding the balance. You know, I'm not going to lie. Some projects are still very poor or we put a poor fee or, you know, we didn't have the courage to tell a client, like, we're not going to do that for you. And but then other projects have been done the right way. We set the right fee. We put the right team in place. So there's this kind of balance and I feel like some of it is just feeling and experience, but I think it's really the whole team having becoming part of it that has really helped us move to that next level.

59:04Erick Darbo Diaz: And we could pinpoint where the problem exists, right? And the problem is not always the team. We tend to, when we don't know, we blame everyone. And well, now we know and we could say, well, that was our fault for putting a bad fee on the project. and not realizing how poor of a time constraint that we set on it.

59:28Carolina Civarolo: Or, you know, maybe the contractor changed twice or the superintendent changed six times. And that wasn't our fault. That was someone else's fault. So it's kind of like we started making lists of all these things on our projects and started to realize like, OK, this is a possibility. This could happen in the future. or we tell the client, hey, we really deserve a little more money for this because of this, this and this. And no one has told us no. I think we try to be fair. We never like feel ahead or do things that we've heard other architects do. So the clients really, I think, value that, that we are trying to be honest.

1:00:11Carolina Civarolo: And if we really mess up something because we're not perfect. We just try to be honest with the clients and everyone is pretty much usually understanding.

1:00:22Erick Darbo Diaz: How do you balance the design integrity and the vision with financial performance?

1:00:30Carolina Civarolo: I think that's the hardest. That's the hardest.

1:00:34Erick Darbo Diaz: That's very, very difficult to try to balance because the architects inside of us want us to put out the best designs possible on every single project, at every single scale, at every single moment possible. But the business side, it's a balancing act. It's a juggling act. And we have to recognize where that money is well spent, where the project is well spent on, and having a basic understanding of, and sharing that basic understanding with the team. It all goes back to sharing that understanding with the team, empowering the team to make better decisions based on the budgets of the projects, based on the time constraints of the projects.

1:01:22Erick Darbo Diaz: And I think that in itself allows them to, allows the team to be design oriented. It allows the team to, you know, we don't fool around as much. There's no need to, there's no time to fool around. So we just get down to the nuts and bolts of the project and design the best that we can for it.

1:01:43Carolina Civarolo: And one thing, going back to the husband and wife dynamic, we used to meddle in every project. And it wouldn't just be me. It would be then Eric would come talk to someone and then I would go back. And we have different ideas sometimes. And we were just confusing our staff so badly. Like we realized, like, what are we doing? They would get so frustrated. and so we've really tried to like stop that and it's either just it gives input or we give input together at the same time because that could easily take a project off track real quickly and you know and we've also tried to teach the team like hey don't ask me about a design decision two hours before you're about to turn in your project because I'm always going to find something to tear it apart so talk to us sooner you know get feedback sooner than later and also ask me early in the morning don't ask me late in the day

1:02:49Erick Darbo Diaz: but that's so but that's so good because they're you know there should be a tension there between design and financial performance and the financial like what you're saying that the kind of metrics and the data that you've got is the thing that's really guiding where you're going to be putting time into in the project. And it helps you negotiate stronger, bigger fees to be able to invest more onto a project rather than just throwing everything you've got at a design. And then the business is now making a loss as a result. It's just unsustainable. You can't keep doing that. And then it becomes very dangerous for clients as well to be working with an architecture firm, particularly when you're working with anything community based.

1:03:34Erick Darbo Diaz: I've had a number of people on the podcast before, who have worked with organizations that have been, you know, very poorly run. And the danger that that puts community based clients into is kind of crazy. You know, because if the architecture firm goes down, or the project's making a massive loss, and the architect has to stop, now you've completely screwed that client and they were in a vulnerable situation in the first place so being able to have a responsible amount of finance in the in the business is very beneficial to clients particularly if there's any any kind of vulnerability involved with them correct yes it's very important and

1:04:17Carolina Civarolo: and i think community it's also working with large groups is also hard like you said that they may take long times to make decisions. And as projects drag in an architecture firm, every month that goes by, someone's opening that project and adding hours to it. But the fee is not changing. It's just this thing that takes long time and it just eats away at the fee. And it's just like this silent thing that keeps happening and you have to just put a stop to it. Like, so we become better at being like, hey we're not going to continue to work on this till y 'all make a decision right like how do you like tell someone that because i think once you tell people they realize what they're doing right and it's just having that open communication which i don't think we were as open before we were more scared to tell someone that in fear of losing a project let's talk a

1:05:14Erick Darbo Diaz: little bit about the future and what does success look like for orange made in the next 10 years

1:05:22Carolina Civarolo: 10 years is hopefully i eric and myself are not running the show and that sounds like i'm trying to push myself out of this but i feel like it's time for the next generation to come up and it's our job in the next 10 years to make sure that happens. And we are the, we have to make that happen. It doesn't just happen by itself. I see too many firms where the leadership has reached a point that they want to get out and they have no exit strategy at all. And I'm like, I do not want that to happen with all the hard work and effort that we have put into this. It would just be it would be sad to me to reach that point so that that would be our goal is to work ourselves

1:06:15Erick Darbo Diaz: out of this business and yeah exactly that's exactly what the hand over the keys to the vehicle uh all the orange made over to the next generation and allow them to grow it and and and be successful in the community that they that they work it work in we want to be able to provide them with a great foundation for success. And yeah, that's exactly what I think the future looks like for, and that's what our success would be. And then 10 years from, 20 years from now, they're doing the same thing for the following generation. How does that look like in terms of projects, in terms of

1:06:58Erick Darbo Diaz: of NOR, you know?

1:07:00Carolina Civarolo: I'd definitely pass the 200 club.

1:07:02Erick Darbo Diaz: we'd definitely be yeah we'd be i'd like to be in the 400 club yeah

1:07:09Carolina Civarolo: and we have fun doing it i think what we realize now is that business of architecture to help us realize that we need to have fun doing what we're doing and it's really changed the way we look at things every day and it's like nothing is the end of the world i will say that and we need to have fun doing this because if not what's the point i need to make sure my personal quality of life my health and well-being is well and then we can do

1:07:40Erick Darbo Diaz: great work exactly final question if you could give one piece of advice to architects who want to build a meaningful and financially sustainable practice what would it be and you might have already just answered it with that last response i think have fun what you're

1:07:59Carolina Civarolo: doing um yes and i i think it's just important to understand the business side of it and realize that it's not just the architecture the architecture part is the i'll call it the easy part now and i used to think that was the hard part and doing the architecture is the easy part it's everything else. It's managing people, it's communication, and it's managing the finances and knowing that it all goes hand in hand.

1:08:33Erick Darbo Diaz: I agree with Caroline. I think the business side is so important. Having someone on staff or a group of people on staff that understand the business and can maintain the business and can grow the business is extremely amazing. Perfect place to conclude the conversation. Guys, what a privilege to have you on the show. Thank you so much. And I look forward to having you back on in the next 12 months, I think.

1:08:59Carolina Civarolo: Yes, that's awesome. Thank you so much for this experience.

1:09:04Erick Darbo Diaz: Awesome. Thank you. Is your firm bleeding money? After working with hundreds of firm owners, we've seen that scope creep doesn't just drain your team and turn you into bottleneck. It also kills your profits, which is why we prepared a resource to help you heal the wounds that Scope Creep inflicts on your practice. The Scope Creep First Aid Kit gives you a deep psychological understanding of why Scope Creep is such a pervasive issue in our industry, as well as practical tools like word-for-word scripts and email templates to help you and your team eliminate Scope Creep from your firm for good. Get the smart practice tool 100 % free by going to businessofarchitecture.com forward slash creep.

1:09:42Erick Darbo Diaz: We're proud to recognize the following smart practice firm members who have achieved 200 club status. These firms have demonstrated exceptional client service and operations management, reaching the prestigious benchmark of$200 ,000 in revenue per full-time employee through the right combination of people, process and profit. To learn more about this award and how to apply for recognition, visit businessofarchitecture.com forward slash 200. Thank you to our recent listeners who left reviews for the podcast on iTunes. Your reviews help others find this podcast so the rising tide raises all boats.

1:10:15Erick Darbo Diaz: To be acknowledged on the show, open the podcast on your iPhone, search for Business of Architecture, and after clicking on the show, scroll all the way to the bottom and leave a review. A while ago, we began to hear reports of a company that was helping some of our clients build remote teams. We looked into it more closely and discovered the company World Teams that was helping small architectural practitioners build remote teams that were both capable and qualified. We were intrigued by another business that are addressing one of the critical pain points for small architectural practices, which is the ability to grow and shrink a team effectively, to be able to handle higher workflow without having to staff up significantly, and also being very sensitive about labor costs.

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1:12:14Erick Darbo Diaz: Because you see, it likely isn't your architecture skills that hold you back. It's the business aspect of running a practice, managing projects and people, dealing with clients, contractors and money. So if you're ready to quit being a glorified administrator and get back to architecture again, go to smartpracticemethod.com to discover the proven, simple and easy to implement smart practice method that is revolutionizing firm management for owners and teams. Let's be real. Free advice is a great appetizer. But the main course, the thing that changes everything, is advice that's personalized to you.

1:12:48Erick Darbo Diaz: That's when momentum starts. Hey, Ryan Willard here, and I want to thank you for joining us today and remind you that the views expressed on the show by our guests do not necessarily represent those of the host. And we make no representation, promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond, or commitment, except for you to do your best work and be handsomely paid for it. Carpe diem.