How Architects Can Set Better Fees, Handle Pushback, and Protect Profit | 711

0:00Fees matter in business. They matter a lot. Hello, Architect Nation, and welcome back. This is the right place for you if you run an architectural practice. Today, we're talking about how to charge healthier fees, protect your profit, and have better client conversations without feeling like you have to become a pushy salesperson. Sometimes the thing holding your fees back isn't actually the market, your competition, or even the client. it's what happens in the conversation before the proposal ever actually gets signed in this episode you'll discover why hearing your fee is too high might actually be the beginning of the most important part of the conversation the simple shift that can help you uncover what a potential client really cares about and why price may not be the real reason they're hesitating how firms can lose profit long after the proposal is accepted and what to pay attention to before that happens.

0:56My guest today is Jeff Hoover, who works closely with architecture firm owners here at Business of Architecture. Jeff has an uncanny knack for asking the questions they get underneath the surface of a business. The questions that reveal where money is being left on the table, where assumptions are driving decisions, and where a small shift could create a very different result. And that's exactly where we're going today. So if you've ever wondered where your fees are actually where they should be, or what's actually happening when a client pushes back on price, you'll want to hear this conversation.

1:33And now a word from our sponsor, Xero. If you're still tracking project costs and client invoices across three different spreadsheets, you already know how much time that steals from actual design work. Xero brings your invoicing, expenses, and project profitability into one place. Built for firms who bill by project, not by the hour. Right now, Business of Architectural listeners can access a special zero offer. Get 90 % off for six months through the link in our show notes. Terms and conditions apply. Jeff, welcome again to the podcast. What an absolute privilege it is to have you on the show one of my favorite favorite people um you don't need any introduction you are the master master of diagnosis here at business of architecture you are the person that all of our clients speak to first and you help them get under the hood of their businesses and understand what's really in the way and then once you've done your full mot audit you're able to give a good prescription of where to go next so amazing amazing to have you here i love speaking with you you are a absolute beast when it comes to asking those deep probing analytical questions that can be very very pertinent and revealing for a for a firm and today we're going to be talking about fees and we've got a business of architecture fee assessment here that we're launching at the moment which a lot of people are finding very very valuable but perhaps let's just get a a little insight from you what have you been seeing over the last six months of talking to lots of architecture firms what kinds of issues and problems are you seeing a lot of the industry faced with at the moment yeah yeah that's such a loaded question i could probably talk for hours on this topic load uh from what i've seen but if i was going to narrow things down like narrow them down to what i've seen is there i call them the five pillars like the ip the ips you know about owners and the freedom that they can have for themselves you know one of those is it starts with your identity just just what we said before we came even onto this podcast like who the heck are you like who are you becoming as a leader for god's sakes like are you just an architect and now you own a business you kind of fell into it sometimes that happens but are you are you an owner that always had wanted to be an owner but now you're in the architect practice and you don't know how to like verge the two together like who are you you know becoming as a leader that's really important okay secondly would be your pipeline i mean how many times in almost every meeting we're talking about the pipeline do you control the pipeline or does the pipeline control you which one is it right because you either have freedom in it or you don't have freedom this is what we talk about all the time feast or famine feast or famine like what are you are you living in that space i've seen a lot of that okay process process and systems how many hats are you wearing in your practice like are you wearing all of the hats and you're you're so busy you're not even thinking about pipeline and then you're like oh yeah i gotta bring in a client here to make the money okay right so your processes are ineffective a lot of times your systems are not there right so and then you have people well i i seem to have fred over here he's doing something over here but doesn't really like it but i still keep him in this position well why don't you have fred over here like something that he's good at and he likes that's his you know or you don't have really anybody that can become what what i call a horseman if you haven't heard that terminology you before, but I'm not going to explain it right now, but I'm just saying, do you have someone capable of doing the job and somebody that you trust?

5:47Your people matter, right? People can make you tremendous amounts of money, right? That should be kind of a philosophy in your head. How can I make this company work and make it make money and give me more freedom, freedom, freedom, owner freedom, okay? And then the last thing would be profit. Are you even making a profit? you know or you know for god's sakes architects are artists okay and that's great you can win every award known to mankind but are you actually making a profit okay profit creates freedom in your life right the more profit you have the more you get to decide to be an artist more right so these are the questions this is what i've been seeing like if i was going to put it in like one big umbrella that's what i would put it in there's all kinds of tentacles that come out of that umbrella man sure sure i mean it we bring up the idea of profit and profit in the architecture world gets a bit of a dirty name sometimes i really trust that this is kind of shifting and changing but you know we've done this kind of um fee report this fee assessment that we're doing here at business of architecture at the moment and 527 different architecture firms um submitted kind of financial information and we recorded that nearly 40 percent of those small firms are operating at a five percent profit margin or less and i suspect that that sample group is not that dissimilar to the rest of the industry from my anecdotal evidence and things that I see, reports that have done by the AIA and the ROBA, which is kind of bonkers that we're dealing with an industry of like 5 % to 7%.

7:43And everybody feels like it's not within their control, that it's happening to them. Yeah. But I've heard this quite a bit is it's the economy. It's president's fault. It's, you know, we're just in a downturn and I just have to wait it out. You know, they don't really have a strategy. They don't really have a plan. And they don't even really know that that's true, what they're saying. But it sounds good on paper. And then you have the other side. It sounds reasonable, right? Well, Johnny over here, he owns his practice. He's having the same thing. So I've been getting together with Johnny quite a bit.

8:28We've been talking it over. that's like the that's like the blind leading the blind if you're gonna talk to somebody talk to somebody who's actually killing it in a down economy or killing it with the president you hate or killing it you know with whatever is happening in the world that's up okay and now you're with somebody who's like how do you say it he's uh vertically mobile upstairs he's kicking it. But a lot of times you don't have that. You don't even have one person who's actually leaning in instead of leaning out. And next thing you know, you're pulling your hair out. You're doing what insanity says, the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

9:16You're doing it. You're living it. And sometimes I get on calls and I say, well, how much longer can you go on doing this? You'd be shocked at the answers I get there, Ryan. like well

9:30I've heard two months four months, six months and then what happens am I going back to work or am I like really putting it out there, taking a big loan and getting into debt here I mean that's how scary it is for people and if you wait long enough the inevitable will happen most businesses fail within the first two years they really do 80 % fail. That's a pretty harsh stat. But I think that's not, if you took that analysis from people that actually were taught the right things in business, I think that stat would be like 80, 85 % win, but they don't have it. They don't, they're not being coached, right?

10:13In the right areas to be coached in a business. And why would you? I went to get a civil engineering degree, for God's sake. I didn't go there to get a sales degree or an entrepreneur degree or how to run a business degree and neither do the architects and design people get into design they don't they don't actually know any of this stuff it's crazy so when you're talking to a lot of practices and you're hearing the same sort of patterns and trends emerging um and obviously we know we are talking to practices that are are keen to get help right and obviously I have a lot of practices on the podcast as well who might look very successful but I still hear the same things that there is a lot of industry issues that fees are locked out that developers and clients don't value or respect what the architect does and there's so many difficult things what would you say is really important for a business owner to start doing, to start making a meaningful movement to change in the direction of where their firm is heading?

11:33Learn how to create value. Value comes from within. So many owners, let's just talk owners, not specifically architects, could be architects, could be anybody on the company, they think a portfolio is the number one thing. They think that their last branding message is the most important thing, right? They think that all the marketing is going to pull it in the front door, right? But if you don't bring value to your meeting, you're up against competitors. What do I mean by value? Value is how you show up in the meeting. Value is about how you place words in a conversation. Value is how you create conversation.

12:17In fact, I call it not selling. People are blown away. I'm going to teach you how not to sell. People are like, what? Don't I need to get contracts? No, I'm going to teach you how not to. I'm confused now. I don't get it. But that's really the truth, isn't it, Ryan? Because most people don't hold that value and have a reason why they're giving something back that's really going to solve the other person's issue. We don't do enough listening. We don't do enough really hearing and tuning in. Like, why are you even doing this job in the first place? Why do you want to create this building? Why do you want to build this house?

12:59None of that is us. They get on the horn. They're like, this is what my company did. Here's my portfolio. Here's what I am. Here's what I do. Here's my team. We're great, right? Yeah, it doesn't work that way. You got to bring the value differently. And I think there's a lot of confusion as to what is value. how is that interpreted you know what i'm saying yeah i do i think it's interesting i'll you know you've heard me say before um that there's that resonant refrain in the architecture industry of like we need to learn how to communicate our value better and what that often produces is what you're talking about is architects just talking more about themselves and their buildings and their portfolios and there is some validity in a little bit of that right absolutely no i certainly think there's a lot of it there's some validity and utility in educating the marketplace for sure but when it comes to our sales conversations i think so many firm owners don't realize how one directional their conversations are coming across and how me-centric it is even after a kind of attempt a conscious attempt of making it about the other person it's usually still very me-centric yeah and what you're presenting here is is actually this idea of communicating value or generating value comes from asking more insightful questions about the other person trying to find out what's valuable to them in the first place.

14:36They become the topic. Imagine that. Imagine how that conversation would go. Here's what I know about people everywhere in the world. They just want to be heard. Bottom line, they just want to be heard. If you could just hear everybody, you would have so many friends in life because they're so intrigued like nobody ever listens to them. And so I think part of this is understanding That's how you create value. That's how you become valuable as a person, as a business owner, is you bring that to the table. You get as many clients as you want to have. In fact, we have what practice owners are like, yeah, the list is long of how many clients they have.

15:20And they can't get to them in six months. And those clients don't care because they'll take that too. I'll take you in six months. That's how much value they created is I want to work with you six months and I don't care. We'll go hiking. We'll go on some trips before. Whatever. They want that personal architect to handle it because of the way they're treated. There's a big difference. That's what I call value. And it didn't take a portfolio. It didn't take some brand message. If anything, it took the brand on the inside of the person to know who she was so that she could bring that value to the table.

15:57Right? Yeah. Yeah, you're mentioning a few times here, like this idea of like an internal game that's being played and being communicated, or that value starts from being created within. What do you mean by that? Yeah, that's a very loaded question. What I mean by that is that I think there's two ways of presentation, okay? And a lot of times we're wearing this mask of what we think people want to see and hear, okay? And what is actually the truth and what could bring you a lot more business mask. Okay. So I think people are confused on which mask and how to apply that. Okay. Because does that mean you have to be a different person?

16:43No. It means you need to learn some tools and some skills. Okay. Just like if I was going to be an architect, I'd have to go to school. I'd have to learn those tools and skills to be a good architect. I'd probably take some some counsel from, you know, great architects and I would sit there and take notes and try to refine my skill set even more. It's the same. So when you're dealing with people, it's the same type of work habit. You've got to work on some things that make the tools better. So you've got to bring the right mask into your conversation. Let's just call it the value map. Okay? I'm going to create a value mask for my clients, which is my branding message, which is who I am.

17:27That's my identity. I am, you know, the best architect out there. When I put these spaces together, they last forever. Okay? And so maybe that's your brand. But how do you articulate that with the right mask? Okay? And that's what we do. That's what we help people find that so that they can come and bring that value to the table every time. Right. Then all of that other stuff adds up. It's icing on the cake. So we've been doing this fee assessment recently where we're inviting clients to kind of get a fee health score. Can you walk us through a little bit about what this is and how it's quite useful for you in your initial kind of diagnostic conversations that you have with many architecture firm owners?

18:20Well, the first thing I'm going to say, architects are going to love this because it gives you a metric. It gives you a number that you can look at and say, oh, wow, I got some gaps in here. OK, so the questions are the subject that I just talked about, you know, things that, you know, you may be experiencing in your business, whether it's overwhelmed, you're not making enough profit. You don't know how to find your clients. You're not getting the right client. You're you know, your staff isn't working well together. The culture is not there. All of these questions are pertaining to that. So what it does is it gives you a healthy assessment.

18:56Like, where is my business and where am I scoring on this? And then it gives you an outfit. Here's where you are. Here's where the average is. Right. And then it gives you sound advice like this is what you're experiencing and this is what you need to clean up on. And you got an actual number out of 100. Oh, I'm 46 percent. I got a lot of work to do here. What's the work? Where are my gaps? Which is very similar to a meeting with me. I'm going to find out, okay, where are the gaps? What's missing? Why do you, what kind of practice do you want to have? What's the dream practice? And on a scale of zero to 10, where are you falling on that?

19:35Well, I'm at a six. Okay, well, where are the gaps? That's what the fee assessment does. So it gives you a number and it just allows you to know, okay, boom, these are things. I never thought about it this way. I think if anything someone would gain from a conversation or just a one-on-one with me is they're going to actually know, okay, these are the gaps. They may not know how to fix it. Okay. But these are actually, they've identified the gaps. This is exactly where I need to go. How valuable is that to you to actually know that? That's what the metric means. Right. Okay. So the metric really is kind of a diagnostic.

20:11It's a questionnaire ascertaining how the business is actually performing in the various different domains to do with money and finance, the actual financial performance of the firm, and kind of reverse engineering from that where there might be potential kind of breaking points or weak points. And kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about the pillars. Yeah. yeah but those are off those those are it's often the inside of those pillars where the kind of breakdown begins and also there's this identity as well yeah that's often missing yes identity too which is you know the internal side of every human what's going on on the inside you know where are you heading um and the interesting you know fact is that let's say you get this assessment done and you're sitting there thinking okay i've identified it but i really don't know where to go from here you can simply get on a call with me and we can have a conversation it's that easy there's a late that just 15 minutes you schedule a call and we get to talk now about some of those things so the the the questionnaire itself the assessment um is looking at a number of different things all related to to fees um i know there's a piece here about you know how many projects actually finish within the original fee that you that you got is this is something that you're seeing that happens a lot that people are kind of negotiating one fee and then the fee that comes up at the end is different and they might not always get all of the yeah you know the pay that they've asked for what's happening there that you're seeing that's that's what in the industry we call scope creep you know so when scope creep happens then you've you've maybe just agreed on it might not even be contractual this is the shocking thing this is a surprising thing that I've realized with a lot of practices, it's more of a handshake deal, you know, on exactly what the fee is.

22:06And then by the end of it, well, we want to do this more or that's not working for us. And then all of a sudden, there's no accountability. There's no integrity there, which by the way, that devalues your company and who you represent. You see? So all of these things being covered at the front are things that would help your practice make more money in the long run. Right? So these are things that We gauge, and this is gaugeable through this metric. When you say, I do it this much, you have multiple answers. I do it this much or not this much. Then it goes on a gauge. And then we take that and turn it into a metric that you can understand.

22:46What about how people are actually setting their fees? And how are you hearing people actually do that? Because again, that's something that's really interesting that you kind of say that, is it a gut check? Is there a lot of finger in the air? How much precision, how much accuracy is it that's been happening? And then hence why the people are getting themselves into all sorts of troubles towards the end of the project because the fee has kind of drifted from what they were thinking because there was no real methodology in the first place for setting the fee. Yeah, next thing you find yourself working for free.

23:20I mean, everybody loves to work for free, right? So, I mean, here's what I know. Fees matter in business. they matter a lot you know so there is a lot of that let's feel it out and see if it works unfortunately through trial and error you're kind of figuring it out i said the other day in our meeting i said so who's getting every sale that they want or every deal that they absolutely want and a lot of them oh i get really good you know i said well then you're probably leaving a lot on the table okay because probably you need to change your fee structure a little bit so they're not getting every single deal that's come in across your table.

24:00And that's okay. What's the percentage? Well, that's something we discussed in the meeting. But I'm just saying there's levels to this. You want to make sure that you're having a good fee, but you need to back it up too and have something contractually set that that's not happening, right? So that you can create some more value to your company. So I think that metric for these questions are geared to find out exactly where you're at on that scale is are you doing good and well or do you need some help are you hearing that um a lot of firms are getting pushback from the fees that they do set so maybe they do set like a healthy fee or something that they want and then they get then they you know they they're finding that people are just saying no yeah well i mean you're an entrepreneur okay and things Things have to be negotiated.

24:54So if you're getting pushback, that's a good sign that you're probably at a good point. People are so afraid of objections. Oh, my God, he said no. Well, that's a good thing. Now ask why. What's the reason you are saying no? Instead of being all super paranoid about, I just got this. I'm a loser. Oh, my God, I did it wrong. You know, there's self-talk going on inside of people. Instead, be looking at it. Okay, I should be getting this at this point. I should be having this, you know, track. That's really interesting that a lot of people do a lot of work to try and avoid friction or pushback or obstacles.

25:35And actually your approach is much more like, great. Yeah. We're exactly where we want to be. That's what I was expecting because it's a lot of money. Here's the thing. I get this feeling inside because I have an engineering degree. I was very introverted, very not an extrovert. Imagine that. And I just didn't feel very awkward in any kind of negotiating situation. All right. You know, so it's not like I don't understand. But aren't you tired of that? Like feeling that way? Like, aren't you sick and tired of that? Like, don't you want to know like how to feel okay? That's what I'm talking about.

26:18There are things that are normal in your industry, and to become really comfortable with completely normal things, that's when you start excelling and start realizing that, oh, okay, this is 2 plus 2 equals 4. It's as simple as that. When people are experiencing a lot of pushback, I know my experience with a lot of architects is that they'll shy away from the pushback. Yeah. what do you suggest like how to navigate around that pushback what kind of skills do they need to develop like what kind of strategies yeah rather than kind of just collapse underneath it yeah that's a that's a good question but you know what i think that the bottom line is be curious as to why someone objects i mean don't over don't put so much pressure on yourself like oh man i think the thing is everybody's thinking well i'd like to get this client and if i don't then that's bad.

27:19It's not necessarily bad. Okay. You should just be curious as to why, like even be curious as to why you didn't get a client for God's sake. How come I didn't maybe ask a question in person? Why? I know you said no to me and you're going to work with this company, but why? So the answer is ask more questions. Be curious. Okay. Be obsessed with trying to understand why people are making the decisions that they're making. Right? That takes all the pressure off you learning any type of sales skill. That is not sales. That's just being inquisitive. Okay? So when you get an objection, oh, that's understandable.

28:01I understand kind of maybe why you would say that. But you mind me asking, like, why? Why do you think I'm too expensive? They might tell you some hard, cold truths right there. So be prepared. Well, you're not prepared. You haven't given me this. You haven't given me that. Oh, you require that? Okay, great. What else do you require? Well, I need this, this, and this. And then if I had all that, then you're saying I'd get the deal? Yeah. Have you made a decision yet? No, I haven't. Can I get back to you in two days and see if we can? You see what I mean? I mean, you know, it's just like, okay, it's not over.

28:40It's not over. It just means you're right there. they want to see if you're going to take care of them well what i what i love about your approach with this is you know that the ability to ask questions allows you to flush up what's really going on for the other person and so when they've said no often it's like something was missing and if and there's an opportunity there for you as the the sales person there's the the the service provider the the leader of the conversation to discover more um and a lot of the things you know why someone said no are perfectly rectifiable yeah and there's something you can do about it it's just you don't know what it is you don't know what what it is and sometimes the other person why they've said no isn't really the real reason for why they've said no yeah most of the time it's not about price by the way and i think people would be alarmed by me saying that No, that's got to be a lie, Jeff.

29:37I don't believe you. Right. It's got to be about price. Every time. They've said it. If it's not about price, what's it about? Usually if someone says it's about price, my answer is very, well, you haven't asked enough questions yet. Because there is an underlying factor there and you haven't found out what it is really yet. So if that is the objection, great. You've started. Okay? You get to start. Before that, you haven't started yet. You're just entertaining. Now you get to start. There's an objection. So why do you say that? You know what? That's not abnormal. I've heard that before. So what's your reason?

30:18There must be a reason why it is price. And see what they say. They can say anything, but that's where the real objection is coming. And ask four times why. I'm giving you a little secret here. four times. Okay? Four times. Because you're going to find out what the true reason is after the fourth why. Right. Now, how important would that be to really know the client that well in two minutes? I hear this all the time, Ryan. Well, this other company has a portfolio and they've been in business. They have all these projects, all this experience. How do you compete? They're probably not asking four times.

31:03that's how you compete if they're bigger and they have all this going on that means they're slower maybe you're smaller and lean and mean and more price conscious there's reasons why someone would go with a speedier company than a big ship that has to turn really slow you might be lickety-flip there's advantages don't you want to know what they are So find out more, be curious more, ask four times deep, and you'll get the real answer. Well, it was interesting the other day when we were at our live event here in New York, and we were talking with some of our clients, and some of the reasons that they were giving for not having one work, though no client had ever given them that reason, had actually said it.

32:00It was just a purely speculative question. thing remember somebody was saying that they believed that their firm was too small and that in order to win the work they had to project the perception of being bigger and that's quite a common i'll hear that from architects all the time and don't get me wrong i'm sure that there's there's plenty people have had experiences where they could testify well this is what happens to me and somebody asked this question but in this particular situation there was no like when you interrogated the evidence okay so which client told you that they weren't working with you because you do not have enough people well nobody nobody actually said that okay so i'm assuming then you you and your your sales advisor came and your marketing advisor sat down and developed you know and analyzed where your business was and they they said the reason why you're not winning work is because you're being perceived as too small well no we didn't do that Okay.

33:01Do you see how far off someone could get off track? And it's not your fault. It's just you're trying to solve it in your head. And it's like the blind leading the blind right off the cliff. Okay. What I know is that typically there's a lot of confusion going on upstairs. You don't really know. and it sucks to admit that because that's the hard part is being very transparent with yourself and saying look i'm going to take ownership i just don't know what the heck i'm doing i like that answer because now we can start we start at the base good i want to help you understand what you're doing i want to get to that point that's the whole point of this metric it gets you to that point we start getting some gaps ryan and starting to go okay i didn't even I know I had a gap there.

33:54Because who are you comparing yourself to? You have nobody to compare to, right? It's not like you're picking up the phone and calling all your buddies that are in practice that don't want to share one secret. Okay, they're not telling you either. So you're in the big wide ocean and you're a shark, right? With a lot of sharks around you, okay? That's what you did. You went from an employee to an owner and now you got sharks around you, okay? That's the way it goes. Yeah. So with this architecture fee health report that we're doing, this gives clients, prospects, architect, firm owners an ability to analyze their own firm, get a health check, basically, on the financial performance of their firm.

34:45I just was playing with it earlier and I invented a mythical architecture firm and scored 58 out of 100. 58%. You got more than I did. I'm getting by. It said I'm getting by by average, meaning I'm leaving significant money on the table. And I think that's really interesting. So is this something that people can do this assessment and then bring it to you and then you can have a kind of discussion? them about a kind of a roadmap forward or i think it would be an amazing thing to see people actually do this assessment and bring it to a conversation because it just helps us advance faster and get to how do how do we solve this you know and i'm i'm after that i i want people to win so bad it hurts but you have to be the one that empowers yourself to do that okay so you know so So my actual position is to find out what that is.

35:46What is that one thing that you have to make breakthrough? I don't care what it is. We need to go on a mission to figure out what it is. And then this is how we work together with our team to make sure that it's solved. Right? Very analytically thought of that way. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Awesome. Okay, Jeff. I think that's flipping great. We've got this fee assessment here that's on the website. I put the details in the information of this podcast. And it's about 10 questions. It should take you no longer than 15 minutes to fill out. The questions are fairly straightforward. But it will give you a health check score that's based on kind of past data that we've looked at from other architecture firms.

36:38and if you're not happy with the score then jump on a call with jeff and you guys can discuss it further and he'll help diagnose what's really happening under the hood right on of your vehicle right on financial vehicle look forward to it amazing jeff thank you always a pleasure having you on on the show we will do this again very shortly but we'll talk soon thank you brother drowning in spreadsheets when you should be designing masterpieces the average architect It wastes 20 to 30 hours weekly on admin tasks that could be delegated with the right system. The Delegation Roadmap Smart Practice tool is your escape hatch from admin hell, helping firm owners reclaim their creative energy and passion for architecture.

37:23While architects use this tool to clear about 20 hours of low-value tasks from their weekly schedule. Imagine what you could do with that time. Get this tool 100 % free by going to www.businessofarchitecture.com forward slash delegate. Today's episode is sponsored by Xero. If you're still tracking project costs and client invoices across three different spreadsheets, you already know how much time that steals from actual design work. Xero brings your invoicing, expenses, and project profitability into one place. Built for firms who bill by project, not by the hour. Right now, Business of Architectural listeners can access a special Xero offer.

38:02Get 90 % off for six months through the link in our show notes. Terms and conditions apply. Thank you to our recent listeners who left reviews on the podcast on iTunes. Your reviews help others find this podcast so the rising tide raises all boats. Today's episode of the Business of Architecture show is sponsored by Smart Practice TM, the world's leading step-by-step solution for architectural practice owners that want to structure their existing practice so the complexity of business doesn't get in the way of the architecture. Because you see, everyone has access to free advice, But not everyone gets tailored advice designed around their businesses, their goals and their blind spots.

38:41That's why the gap between free and paid keeps widening. So if you're ready to quit being a glorified administrator and get back to architecture again, go to smartpracticemethod.com to discover the proven, simple and easy to implement smart practice method that is revolutionizing firm management for owners and teams. Hey Ryan Willard here and I want to thank you for joining us today and remind you that the views expressed on this show by our guests do not represent those of the host. And we make no representation, promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment except to help you do your best work and be handsomely paid for it.

39:17Carpe diem.