Winning Better Work: Chris Laul on Strategy, Clients & Growth | 708

0:00Business of Architecture Podcast: Every space that human beings interact with in some way, shape or form are created by design professionals and we have that data and it's powerful data.

0:11Chris Laul: Hello, Architect Nation and welcome back. This is the right place for you if you run an architectural practice. Today we're talking about how to win better work more deliberately so you're not just waiting for referrals, reacting to opportunities or spending precious time chasing projects you were never positioned to win. because some of the biggest improvements to your firm might not come from doing more marketing. They might come from getting much clearer about opportunities which deserve your attention and which ones don't. On today's episode, you'll discover why knowing which projects not to pursue could save your firm thousands and actually improve your chances of winning the work you really want.

0:50Chris Laul: The simple relationship building habit that can outperform those frantic bursts of business development when your pipeline suddenly looks thin, and why talking less about your firm and understanding more about what your client actually needs could become one of your strongest competitive advantages. In today's episode, I sit down with Chris Law, Chief Strategy Officer and Senior Principal at HOK. Chris has spent more than three decades helping architecture firms grow through strategy, business development, and a deeper understanding of what clients actually value. His perspective gets to a question architecture school rarely teaches.

1:25Chris Laul: How do you turn exceptional design talent into a firm that consistently attracts and wins the right work? And what makes Chris's perspective especially interesting is that he's also a successful fine artist. He's seen firsthand that creativity and commercial success don't have to fight each other. In fact, understanding the people you serve can make your creative work even more valuable. So if you want to build a firm that wins more intentionally without sacrificing the quality or integrity of the work, keep listening. You've built a practice that balances design, delivery, and client trust. But when it comes to taxes, your firm's structure might be quietly working against you.

2:04Business of Architecture Podcast: At Gelt, we specialize in helping architecture firms uncover hidden tax inefficiencies, from outdated ownership setups to missed expense opportunities and project-level

2:14Chris Laul: tax traps. Even well-run studios can leave five figures on the table each year simply because their financial foundation hasn't evolved as the firm has. Gilt helps you design a smarter structure, one that turns your firm's growth into real savings and stronger take-home income. Gilt, tax strategy built for architects. Don't wait for next tax season. Schedule your complimentary consultation at joingilt.com. That's J-O-I-N-G-E-L-T dot com to learn more and mention BOA when you sign up. If you're still tracking project costs and client invoices across three different spreadsheets, you already know how much time that steals from actual design work.

2:54Chris Laul: Xero brings your invoicing, expenses, and project profitability into one place, built for firms who bill by project, not by the hour. Right now, Business of Architecture listeners can access a special Xero offer. Get 90 % off for six months through the link in our show notes. Terms and conditions apply. Chris, welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you, sir? Thank you, Ryan. Doing very well. Looking forward to the conversation. Very honored to have you here on the show. A little introduction about you, Chris. You are the Chief Strategy Officer and Senior Principal at HOK, obviously one of the world's leading design firms, and you guys have got offices all around the globe.

3:35Chris Laul: You've spent more than three decades helping architecture firms grow though not through architecture or not through designing buildings but rather by designing strategy and you've been involved in leading firm-wide initiatives around growth market positioning business development long-term competitive advantage and you're now serving on hok's board of directors and co-chairs the firm's own marketing board and as well as that you're also a very accomplished fine artist which I think really gives you this amazing unique perspective on the relationship between creativity leadership and actually kind of financial and commercial success so I'm very excited to kind of dig into your brain and pull out some of your insights and and experiences and perhaps the first question really is like you've spent 30 years helping architecture firms grow though you're not an architect yourself how did you kind of end up building this really fascinating career inside of strategy inside of architecture yeah well well first thank you for that very nice introduction

4:50Business of Architecture Podcast: though but yeah i you know what i've always um been a creative person um and it's it's interesting even within my art career. I am self-taught. I never studied art. I have a marketing background and a business background from college. I went to Fordham University here in New York and studied marketing, came out of school, was very, very interested in working in a creative field. And that really stems from having lots of summer jobs working on Wall Street and in law firms. And I realized that if I'm going to be happy, I really have to be surrounded by creativity and art, architecture and design.

5:31Business of Architecture Podcast: And, you know, having coming out of school and, you know, I had to make a decision about how do I explore career opportunities in design and art and architecture where I can make a living. And, you know, I was very fortunate. I actually started, you know, I needed a job right out of school. And I actually ended up working in a blueprint factory, of all things, a reprographics firm, very briefly. And that provided an entree working in marketing and an architectural practice. And the first firm that I worked for was Brennan Buell-Gorman Architects. I ended up working there in a marketing capacity, you know, frankly, as a marketing coordinator, working on proposals and presentations and qualifications packages etc and i really enjoy the the built environment and design it was really very very fulfilling to me um at the time you know we can get into later in the conversation and you mentioned in the introduction i've always uh painted as as an artist and it was something that that brought me a lot of uh uh joy uh growing up and And it was, you know, obviously something I continue to do today.

6:47And I found that, you know, being around designers and, you know, understanding the relationship between art, design, architecture was just a really fascinating path for me.

7:02Business of Architecture Podcast: You know, so my job there evolved at Brennan B. Gorman. I eventually moved into a business development capacity at the firm. And all during that time in my early years, I was debating, do I go to architecture school? Do I pursue that path? And I started to realize that I really enjoyed making the opportunities happen. You know, really understanding the needs of clients, bringing what designers and architects, showing the value that designers and architects can bring to an owner, to a client, was very valuable to me. And, you know, it was, you know, frankly, provided a very interesting career path and a unique one, because in many architectural firms, at least in my experience, you know, and in architectural schooling, the focus has not really been on how you win the work, right?

8:03Business of Architecture Podcast: How you really grow, how you make money. Those are all things where I felt that I had some knowledge of and could provide value. And it was certainly recognized.

8:15Chris Laul: That's really, really interesting as well. First of all, I think that's very important for a lot of architects when they're working with anybody in the business sphere or the winning work sphere is that there is a kind of unconscious need, desire, or sense of security working with somebody who they know that appreciates architecture.

8:36Business of Architecture Podcast: Yes. It's deep.

8:39Chris Laul: It's really deep.

8:40Business of Architecture Podcast: Correct. Yeah. The longer I worked in the profession, you know, I just, the, you know, it's exciting. First of all, it's exciting to work sort of project based. So to, if you take a look at the life cycle of an opportunity from the first handshake or discovery of an opportunity through the pursuit process, and then hopefully the win and the development of the project, the closeout there, it's very, very fulfilling. And to be, I think, what enables successful business developers, strategists, marketers in our industry, what enables the successful ones is they're engaged throughout the entire process.

9:20Business of Architecture Podcast: They have a deep connection to the talent that resides within their own firm. And they also have a very clear understanding about what the marketplace needs. And I think the, for lack of a better, from the marketer in the AES industry sort of sits in the middle of that. So it's very dynamic. You know, as I grew at Brennan-Burr Gorman, you know, just learning more about architecture, that particular firm was very focused on hospitality projects. I was there for a little over a decade, was presented with an opportunity at HOK to lead their business development efforts in the Northeast and took that.

10:01Business of Architecture Podcast: It was a larger platform for me, remained very close with the partners at Brennan-Burr Gorman, And ironically, HOK ended up acquiring Brennan B. Gorman through my connections and relationships about five years after me moving on HOK. So it's a weird way I've been at the same firm. You brought them, you literally brought them with you. Brought them with us. So, and yeah, it was a really fascinating process. I think, you know, acquisitions are something that is very, very prevalent in our industry right now. I think there's a small number of very large firms who are gobbling up others. Private equity is now in play.

10:41Business of Architecture Podcast: You know, it was really, I think, culturally finding the right fit is the most important thing in an acquisition and making sure that that's handled appropriately. Okay, I actually just acquired a firm out of Detroit called Rossetti, a really prominent sports-based design architect. And, you know, the process has just been absolutely fantastic. You know, we learned a lot through previous acquisitions. And it's been really nice. Great learning and great business experience for me, particularly my new role as we explore growth opportunities. But, yeah, it's just been an interesting evolution how the role has changed, how the industry has changed.

11:27Business of Architecture Podcast: the need for experienced relationship people and business people to work alongside architects is ever increasing.

11:38Chris Laul: We talk a lot about this idea of strategy and I think a lot of architecture firms recognize that they need to have one and it's interesting when we start applying the word strategy to marketing and business acquisition or client acquisition because a lot of architects Well, if you ask them, how do they win work? They're like, well, there's a kind of blurbable answer. And, you know, normally it's some sort of response of like just focus on doing good work. But how do you define strategy? And maybe even broader than that, like, how do you define what marketing is in an architecture firm?

12:16Business of Architecture Podcast: Sure. Very good question. It has a few different answers and it's something that's very timely. We're actually just starting our annual business process for 2027. Right. And I think, you know, HOKs, we're coming up on our 75th year of practice. So the firm has a tremendous legacy. And one of the things we're exploring now with our executive committee is, you know, firms evolve. People change. Market environments change. And I think successful businesses, not just architecture, really need to be very flexible and forward-looking as to how they approach their business. You know, one of the things when I first took this role on was really starting, you know, I wanted to make sure that there was clarity around what HOK's aspirations were right now in 2026 and looking forward.

13:13Business of Architecture Podcast: And sitting with the co-CEOs of HOK and other executive committee members, we really sort of crystallized around what makes us different. I mean, all architectural practices and design firms struggle with differentiation. How, you know, because there's so much talent out there, how do we, you know, stand out? And I think, you know, for HOK, we really have such a diverse group of talented individuals across the firm who are focused on specific markets, regions and disciplines. And when we started to think about, you know, that really is a differentiator for HOK. And it kind of kind of summed it up in a statement about being wanting to be the best interdisciplinary design firm working the most complex projects in the world.

14:03Business of Architecture Podcast: So, that's something that really, you sum that up, it's about collaboration. It's making sure that all of the various major markets across HOK, whether that be aviation, transportation, science and technology, sport and recreation, healthcare, how do those groups interface, potentially collaborate with each other, with our disciplines, engineering, lighting design, experience design, interior design, planning. and woven over a network of almost 30 global offices. So when you start to kind of weave all of those various components together, it's a really powerful service offering. So that's something that I'm working on now.

14:50Business of Architecture Podcast: How do we really make that statement and aspiration concrete for our clients? How do we package it and market it in a way that's compelling and delivers value? The other is sustainability. HOK literally wrote the book on sustainability well over 25 years ago, and it is something that is increasingly more important in our industry. And how do we, I think, rebuild that sustainability brand with HOK, given where we're at in our earth and our climate? What is our contribution and how can HOK be a leader in sustainability? And it's woven into every single project that we do. And how do we communicate and educate our clients around the importance of it?

15:39Business of Architecture Podcast: And lastly is growth. And I think it's not just growth for growth's sake or profit necessarily. It's really about providing opportunity first to our people, providing real, you know, leadership and opportunity for our industry, our clients, and our broader communities. So there's a real, I think, some real tangible outcomes to wanting to grow as a firm, particularly in the environment that they're in.

16:05Chris Laul: but um when when you guys are kind of you know it's interesting what you're describing here because it's a very kind of um uh broad perspective of the firm as a as a business and that and kind of looking having an understanding of all the different kind of components and obviously when you're operating at the scale of hok it becomes increasingly complicated because you've got you know different global offices there's hundreds thousands of people um there's you know massive super complex projects that people are dealing with there's specialist knowledge that's being defined um so having that kind of overview or that global perspective on the entire organization is incredibly just just understanding how it's all operating yes it already becomes part of the plan

16:53Business of Architecture Podcast: you know very true very true yeah i i think one of the challenges have been i you know i i just celebrated my 20-year anniversary at the firm. And looking back 20 years, there was a point in time when, you know, the various studios across HOK or the markets, you know, all were very, wanted to be very territorial about how they approached obtaining new business and, you know, how they interacted with their own clients. There was perhaps not as much sharing as there could have been. And I think we're, you know, we have gradually over the past two decades, we've been moving into an environment where we've acknowledged that, you know, sort of the one HOK is much stronger than the collection of our parts.

17:39Business of Architecture Podcast: Right. And it's, you know, particularly now, you know, I really trying to get us to a place where, you know, we need to deliver a consistency across the firm. We need to collaborate much more effectively. And frankly, the technology that we're using now, the result of Zoom and Teams has really woven our firm together in such a meaningful way that has, frankly, allowed us to grow. And we'll continue. you. But, you know, as we approach the business planning process that I mentioned earlier, it really is structured in a strategic format that really points back to those core aspirations. You know, one of the things I like to ask when thinking sort of strategically about, you know, new business and growth is one of the first things I try to kind of, when I'm in my monthly meetings, you know, what are you not going to pursue?

18:37Business of Architecture Podcast: You know, which I think is an incredibly important question, because what it forces leaders to do is really focus. And I think, you know, there's only a finite amount of money that we can invest in marketing for pursuit. So let's make sure that we're putting it in the right place where, you know, we have established client relationships, where we know about projects before. We're not just reacting. And being really disciplined about not going after the shiny object, because I've seen many, many times it's, you know, a project comes just comes across someone's desk and, you know,$50 ,000 later, you know, and a loss, you know, like, why did we do that?

19:20Business of Architecture Podcast: You know, we weren't, were we aligned for it? Did we have the relationship, et cetera? And this is all common sense. But in the heat of the moment, I do find that having some strict parameters around, we're not going to pursue this. We are doing this. This is exactly where we're providing value. This is where we have the relationships, et cetera. I think it's just good practice.

19:43Chris Laul: when you're kind of talking about client acquisition um how do you is is there like a formula that hok likes to deploy um is it something that you train other partners in the business to do or is it kind of you know it's compound you know it's in a particular department like you guys are the business developers you go and bring in the work or is it more sort of proliferated through the rest of the business?

20:13Business of Architecture Podcast: I would love to say that we had a really clean process around client acquisition. I can tell you it's much more organic, although we are applying much more rigor in terms of how we are tracking and sharing client intelligence, market intelligence. We just onboarded. I spent the better part of last year reviewing and test driving CRM systems, which was revolutionary for the firm, frankly. And even most of architecture, the whole notion of CRM is scary. So I'm six months into onboarding a new CRM system, which is an incredible cultural exercise for folks because introducing something different, introducing a new way of working, introducing a habit, a disciplined habit of keeping track of our prospects and clients and making sure that there's rigor when and how we communicate with them.

21:21Business of Architecture Podcast: and consistency is something that, you know, I advocated, if we're going to grow, this is something that needs to happen. So, yeah, and, you know, it takes a tremendous amount of face-to-face effort and relationship building to keep our leaders on track, you know, in terms of making sure the next project ends up on our desks.

21:46Chris Laul: You mentioned there a little bit about client and market intelligence and i think for a lot of certainly for a lot of smaller practices you know their marketing efforts are very reactive so like it's either a referral or a project just happens to find its way onto you know somebody's desk and that's it and actually this idea of market and client intelligence kind of starts to differentiate a lot of different firms and the ones that tend to be much more successful because they're they're actively becoming or positioning themselves as allies or advocates for clients how how does hok approach client and market intelligence like what does it what does it mean kind of broadly within the business and again is it something that that everybody is kind of interested in as a culture of the business yes

22:34Business of Architecture Podcast: um so one of actually for ever since i i took on a sort of a firm-wide role in in co-chairing our Marketing Board, one of the first things I wanted to do, along with my partners, was really engage more people within HOK and weave them into the business development and marketing process. We wanted to make sure that culturally, everyone at HOK knows where work comes from, that being involved in your community is important, that participating in the marketing business development process is good for the firm. More ambassadors that we have engaged, just the better for our brand. And it hasn't always been easy.

23:23Business of Architecture Podcast: I think people tend to default to what they enjoy doing and what they're good at. And the whole notion of, frankly, sales can be very scary to folks, even leaders. And it has been, you know, I'm beating that problem every single day. And it takes time. And I think, you know, I mentioned our CRM initiative that is connected to that is ongoing training to really keep people engaged. It ranges from working with folks how to build their personal brand on LinkedIn. It is presentation training. It's CRM training. It's how to conduct, you know, sales meetings. You know, I always advocate business development is sort of something that, well, the pipeline's looking a little slim.

24:13Business of Architecture Podcast: We better sit down all day and make a lot of calls. I don't think that's the best method. I think forcing yourself into a habit where you're doing one good thing a day is going to yield much more results. So it's not all at once. It's just building relationship keeping into your daily practice. You know, I conduct workshops at HOK with our project managers who are frontline with our clients, frontline with our consultants. They have access to tremendous market intelligence. You know, and in the past, a lot of that would just come and go. If I'm not meeting with them regularly, they may not have the foresight to bring it to my attention.

24:55Business of Architecture Podcast: And we're certainly not recording it. That's changing now. I think project managers have been a critically important tool in our sort of business development timeline or lifecycle. And using our CRM platform in order to really record critical market intelligence, details about clients and prospective clients, and being able to share that across our entire network of market leaders and business developers has been a game changer.

25:28Chris Laul: Is it a kind of requirement if you become into a partner or a leader at HOK that business development will be one of your competencies or responsibility?

25:42Business of Architecture Podcast: Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the challenges we've had in the past in terms of measuring business development activity has been, you know, how do you track that accountability, right? Without the CRM, without the data, it's just a conversation. It's a lot of just, I heard this. It was hard to get any teeth into a rigorous reporting system. So that was also another driver for onboarding a CRM system. How do we hold leaders accountable? We have robust dashboards now that we utilize when we're having our business development and marketing meetings that have every individual leader at HOK who's charged with driving business has their own performance dashboard, if you will.

26:35Business of Architecture Podcast: Because, you know, the gestation period on many architecture projects is long, right? We're not paid on commission. That's not what we're trying to drive. where we want to really be able to make sure that the leaders that we have in the firm are committed to the bottom line and have a deep understanding of where that work's come from and how long it takes to get there. So there's, you know, one of the things that I've always appreciated about HOK is the business acumen that has been employed. Very robust operations, accounting. and and uh you know i think that building a design firm on such a a strong foundation of good business principles allows that allows us to be successful you know there and there are a few large there are a few firms that do it very well you know i'm i'm very proud to say that you know hok is doing a really great job in that in that regard in terms of your kind of parallel career

27:35Chris Laul: um you know obviously as an artist as a fine artist you're doing a form of business development as well and i've had you know i've got we've got artists in our family and then my wife's sister is an artist i've got lots of friends who are artists and they're a an interesting breed of of people and the the business side of it is even more extreme in terms of like often attitudes artists attitudes towards business or you know i've spoken with gallery with gallery reps before and agents and and they're kind of pleading with their artists of like can you just just do a print because we can we can transport those easy and they sell well and and the artist is like absolutely not i'm not going to compromise my artistic integrity for for the market in that sense how how how have you navigated it and what kind of lessons have you learned from being able to establish a successful fine art career and how does that kind of mirror back into what you do as at hok yeah um it's been an interesting journey i think i mentioned early on when i

28:46Business of Architecture Podcast: was describing when i when i started at brad bugh gorman um you know i i've always painted You know, art is something. I practice painting every day. I have a studio at my home. It is, and I think if you speak to any painter or artist, it is that daily work that is fulfilling. You know, there are times I'll be in the middle of the night, I'm painting, I paint most weekends. It is something that I would be doing whether I was selling my paintings or not. I was very fortunate, again, to network with the right people, befriend designers who, A, they like my work. I do large-scale abstract work. I have gallery representation in New York and Europe and Western United States.

29:35And it's been an interesting ride.

29:39Business of Architecture Podcast: I mean, I've never been the type of artist who was comfortable with being poor or starving or suffering. And I always valued, you know, the sort of commercial aspect of it because it was exciting. And especially when I was very young and had the money, selling a painting was a way for me to, you know, live and do what I needed to do. So I, you know, I think that, you know, it's being able to sell your artwork and being able to witness people appreciating your creativity and your work is just extraordinarily fulfilling. When I was at Brennan Bergorman, you know, I mentioned that they do a lot of hotels.

30:22Business of Architecture Podcast: The former CEO of Core Hotels, Sofitel, he was walking around the studio at the time and I was sitting at my desk and I had a series of printouts of my paintings. He saw some of the images. We started talking. He loved them. He ended up buying, not only buying a few pieces for his personal residence, I ended up working on a commission to do all of the original paintings for a new Sofitel hotel that they were developing in Philadelphia. So I was very young. I had no money at all. This was an exciting opportunity. I ended up spending the next two years of my life literally painting every single day while working full time and recently married.

31:10Business of Architecture Podcast: So just just trying to just trying to get that work done. And it was just it was stressful at the time, but just wildly exciting to have that opportunity. And that, frankly, was the springboard into doing a number of commissions for international hotels. I developed relationships with designers outside of my current firm who specified my work. and one of the things that I always heard that they appreciated was I understood the logistics, the insurance requirements, all of the making sure that things are done on time, making sure that I negotiated pricing in a way that works for the project, being extraordinarily flexible to all of the various business terms that are associated with an artist's commission.

32:04Business of Architecture Podcast: and that just led to new things because if you're easy to work with and you're creating quality work you will get more work and that's whether you're a painter an architect or any creator and it sort of ended up working out where now I've been doing this for over 30 years painting regularly I just had a show last month in New York and I do a variety of paintings for for, you know, hotels, restaurants and private individuals. So it's been very nice. It's really interesting what you're saying there about actually

32:40Chris Laul: that you have an understanding of the client's needs or the person who's acquiring a painting actually, that there is a, they have their own kind of agenda with the acquisition of a piece of art. And part of it obviously is desire and love for the image and what it can do. But there's also a kind of practical element of it and just being able to kind of be sensitive to that makes a makes a big difference and it becomes a big differentiator how have you found because again it's interesting like with architecture we're selling something which is solving a problem whereas from an arts perspective you might not and you might not think about art as solving a problem um or it's a solution to something how What's the kind of frame that you take which allows you to maintain your own kind of artistic and design integrity whilst having this marketing aspect of it where it's solving something for somebody or it's kind of fulfilling on something, a desire perhaps?

33:45Business of Architecture Podcast: It's an interesting question and I get asked it a lot. And I think I've been very fortunate in the commissions that I've participated in and been grateful enough to get. there were no parameters put on the paintings that I was delivering. I, you know, I had complete creative license. And in many cases, I, you know, I had created, I created such a large body of work that they are buying pieces of mine that are already created. There are some artists that work in the commercial environment where they're given strict parameters around size, color, etc. And that has not been the case with me. And it has nothing to do about my artistic pride necessarily.

34:29Business of Architecture Podcast: It's just how that evolved. Because I work full time, I'm creating paintings that I want to create. And I'm just, you know, I'm fortunate enough that they've been in demand to some extent. But, yeah, I think that I've been able to maintain my artistic integrity and, you know, feed my family and do all the things I needed to do with my art. And, you know, it's even interesting as even as we approach some, you know, kind of switching gears a little bit, going back to architecture, one of the things I do when we're evaluating kind of signature major projects, whether that be an airport or a large healthcare system or whatever it might be, you know, going back to that point about differentiation, as we compose our project teams, I'm always thinking about what can HLK bring different to the team, to the table that makes us stand out that again provides potentially provides more value to the project and in some cases that means partnering with an artist make you know whether it could be a sculptor or a light installation artist or something or some someone who's fairly well known that brings some gravitas to our design team and we've done that a number of times um uh successfully and uh that's particularly engaging when i can really bring my professional life in architecture and my love of art together in one place.

36:01Business of Architecture Podcast: And when it works, it's really very, very powerful. You know, so that's, I think there's a deep relationship between architecture and art, space and art, the impact that one has on one another. And, you know, I think many of the designers, at least that I'm exposed to here at HOK, really have a deep appreciation for that. You know, I'm thinking to our uh we recently uh completed a new terminal laguardia airport which won a number of awards and um really been very well received in the new york community um and art was a major component of of the i believe the success and the overall experience that people have with that with that that space in that building in terms you mentioned there about kind of you know bringing different

36:52Chris Laul: kind of collaborators to the to the table in terms of differentiation where do you think a lot of architecture firms or perhaps in your own experience where where has been a waste of energy in trying to differentiate what what sorts of things don't work

37:10Business of Architecture Podcast: i am i think when you spend a lot of time talking about yourself it's usually usually not a good thing. And, you know, listen, we working in architecture, working in creative fields, there's a lot of pride and an incredible amount of talent. In my experience, the clients that I interface with are very interested about learning about how we're going to solve their problems. Do we understand their business? How are we going to make their lives better? How are we going to enable them to get home earlier to their family? How are we going to enable them to look good in from their bosses you know i think as opposed to being fixated on the heroic image that's i know some architects are um focusing on the business problem the business case is is is is i think a very is a is a positive way to improve your chances of of getting getting shortlisted it

38:06Chris Laul: kind of comes back to that idea of again client intelligence market intelligence absolutely you're able to use the vocabulary of the client you're able to describe and articulate their business agenda in in a way and you can apply your own architectural lens to that

38:22Business of Architecture Podcast: absolutely right now now of course having all of that client intelligence business intelligence backed up by design that actually improves the space that improves the community's experience with space the client's business all of that works and we're aesthetic people right we everyone that goes into design architecture wants that end product to be perfect and you know i think that the the the successful firms are the ones that can really marry exceptional design with um with with deep market knowledge you mentioned as well one of the strategies the hok has pursued

39:04Chris Laul: in terms of growth and we're seeing this again you know uh kind of across the market and interestingly private equity is becoming involved is of course the kind of mergers and acquisitions um could you tell us a little bit about that and how hok's kind of philosophy around acquisitions you know what's the history of that in the in the firm what makes a good acquisition versus a bad acquisition what what kind of gets your antennae is going this would be actually a collaborative you know a very positive thing and again i think you know certainly in the uk not so much here in the us but in the uk mna gets a bit of a bad rap in the architectural press as being some sort of you know heavy duty we're going to come in and grab you and my experience with it is is often not that at all and it's very beneficial for everybody involved and in many ways architects you know architecture works really well with big teams it works well with people i i completely

40:08Business of Architecture Podcast: agree with you ryan you know um and in my experience too um the the acquisitions that i've you know that i know about that i've had relationships with they've been fairly successful i think there are two you know you could kind of take the acquisition concept and there are two different ways that it plays out. One is private equity. Sometimes you have just the money firm that is buying up, you know, professional service firms, building them, growing them, selling them. And then in other cases, you have one, you know, architectural design firm buying another. And I think I have more experience in that realm.

40:45Business of Architecture Podcast: In my tenure at HOK, we've gone through three acquisitions, Brennan Bergman. We also acquired a sport practice 360 architecture out of Kansas City, and then most recently, Rossetti. And, you know, HOK is very, I mentioned our business acumen, we're extraordinarily cautious. The cultural fit is paramount for any acquisition that is discussed. I think, you know, and it really, the business case has to revolve around how is it going to allow one of our markets and their service lines really grow and provide more value to our clients. So in the case of sport, you know, HOK originated as one of the leading sport design firms.

41:34Business of Architecture Podcast: Back in 2009, HOK Sport, the partners of HOK Sport, ended up leaving. There was a breakup. They ended up forming the firm Populous. Many of them formed the firm Populous and others. So there was a brief period of time where there was an NDA. But there was a keen desire for HOK to get back into the sports world. And after the NDA had expired, Populous was able to go do their thing. And we at HOK ended up bringing 360 architecture on board and subsequently Rossetti. We have an extraordinarily robust sport practice. So I tell this story in the sense that there was a very strategic need for that acquisition.

42:18and, you know, it's something that we are very, again, cautious and prudent about how we examine

42:26Business of Architecture Podcast: growth. It has to culturally fit. It has to benefit the people at both firms and they take a tremendous amount of time and effort to get done, to allow them to be successful. So, you know, It's about where are our strategic objectives and where potentially are there firms that can fulfill that. But by no means are we a large firm that is out there just gobbling up things. That's not our particular strategy. It's more very, very market-specific about delivering value to a particular market and or client.

43:07Chris Laul: Could you tell us a little bit about the benefits for the company being acquired, if you like? What happens to them and how do you preserve unique cultural aspects? What sorts of due diligence do you do to make sure that there is a cultural fit and to reassure individuals inside of that practice that anything that happens is going to be an enhancement and a deepening of the things that are already working? working in that practice as opposed to like a kind of strip out and we've got what we wanted, which was like, you know, access to a market.

43:43Business of Architecture Podcast: Right, sure. The first part of your question, I think that there are lots of midsize, smaller architectural firms where there are some succession challenges. You have partners who maybe, you know, have all the equity and maybe the the junior partners, they're not able to really realize the equity in the firm. So in some cases, being acquired allows the partnership group to get, you know, value out of their investment in the firm and continue to grow and see the legacy of their projects and people grow and move on. um you know i can tell you in the in the case of the rosetti acquisition which took months months long uh there was a tremendous amount of due diligence but i think you know very early on in any relationship whether or not people click whether or not you know you're aligned emotionally whether you're you know whether you have the same ethic and you know um in the case of rosetti it was really quite seamless.

44:51Business of Architecture Podcast: And it requires a tremendous amount of work. It requires leaders being there on site, reassuring people. It requires having a complete understanding of the talent that exists in the firm that's being acquired and how that translates into the fabric of HOK in this case. And getting a real understanding of what their current opportunity pipeline is, what their current workload is. And another big piece of it is having really seamless and regular client communications to ensure that the existing clients of the firm that's selling, making sure that they know that they're going to be well taken care of.

45:36Business of Architecture Podcast: And I think that it's just very good business and just being on top of it, being extraordinarily just disciplined about how you manage those relationships internally and externally. There's no easy way to do it. It has to be face-to-face communication. In the early months of any acquisition, our people are talking to each other all the time. And that's the way you need to build those relationships and trust, and trust takes time.

46:09Chris Laul: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's such a, it is such an advantage to a lot of firms to be able to go through that process. I think for a lot of business leaders to even think about being acquired is actually a really healthy thing to do for their own, just the way that they're thinking about a business and the way that it might be attractive to another business. I think sometimes a lot of architects, we're forgetting that ultimately there's an asset that we're creating here. It's a vehicle for creating architecture and there's an asset here. and that asset there's this kind of mechanisms that can improve the value of that asset and that's that's beneficial for everybody for the client for the products for other people that might want to to purchase it to the team members themselves yeah i yeah i agree with you i i think

47:02Business of Architecture Podcast: it provides tremendous opportunity for firms i mean we were talking a little bit about the competitive nature of of architecture and you know and teaming i mean it beyond just acquisition And HOK is constantly looking for teaming partners in order to strategically position us for major work. What, again, what is going to make our offering the most competitive and deliver the most value for the project and the people involved in the project? In some cases, that means we're teaming with another architectural practice. You know, we have obviously, you know, architectural teams go very deep with all of the engineering disciplines and other design disciplines.

47:42Business of Architecture Podcast: The very nature of making a building happen or an environment happen is all built around teaming, collaboration, and people. So it makes a lot of sense that acquisition in our industry is something that is becoming commonplace. And in order for some firms to be competitive and to win work and deliver their value, they need more horsepower. So that's, you know, I actually think it's a very positive thing. It's a creative way to address, in some cases, a very challenged business environment.

48:15Chris Laul: I think it makes us much stronger. And I think that you were saying earlier, the private equity is getting involved as well, which I think is very positive, as it means that people are viewing architecture businesses as assets.

48:29Business of Architecture Podcast: You're absolutely right.

48:30Chris Laul: It's becoming attractive.

48:31Business of Architecture Podcast: That's beautifully put. I mean, you think about the data that is produced and collected by architecture and by architects and engineers. That's valuable stuff. I mean, it's the entire every space that human beings interact with in some way, shape or form are created by design professionals. And we have that that data and it's powerful data. And, yeah, I'm a big advocate. I'm very interested to see how our industry evolves, the role of private equity. And I'm actually optimistic that it's going to raise the overall stature, business stature of architecture as a profession. Because the importance of the spaces that people interact with, the critical importance of sustainability in our built environment.

49:24Business of Architecture Podcast: um architects are touching lots all of all of these items so um yeah we we should be

49:34Chris Laul: should be valued for it yeah i i i agree with you there i think it's very exciting to see that kind of um investment being the deployed into architecture businesses and it's a it's a good sign it's a good sign for the industry that there's you know when we when we start operating like a business and kind of take that part on and also you know don't lose our creative integrity um it's very it's really powerful it's really really powerful it absolutely is it

50:04Business of Architecture Podcast: absolutely is and when you know in some cases when you're taking away the the stress of running the business and um it allows you to be more creative and provide more value um and you know i think that you know it's one of the primary reasons why i've really been fulfilled working in this industry because i know that i'm bringing something to the table i'm bringing knowledge expertise suggestions to the table that maybe aren't are weren't necessarily on the radar and you know to be able to make a difference in that way is is is pretty cool amazing chris i think that's the perfect place for us to conclude our conversation today that was absolutely fascinating and a really unique glimpse into the kind of business acquisition side of architecture in a large global firm like HOK and also bringing in your unique perspective of

50:59Chris Laul: being a fine artist and actually making that work. So thank you very much for sharing your experience and your wisdom.

51:07Business of Architecture Podcast: Thank you, I appreciate it.

51:09Chris Laul: Drowning in spreadsheets when you should be designing masterpieces? the average architect wastes 20 to 30 hours weekly on admin tasks that could be delegated with the right system the delegation roadmap smart practice tool is your escape hatch from admin hell helping firm owners reclaim their creative energy and passion for architecture one architect used this tool to clear 20 hours of low value tasks from their weekly schedule imagine what you could do with that time. Get this tool 100 % free by going to www.businessofarchitecture.com forward slash delegate. You've built a practice that balances design, delivery, and client trust.

51:47Chris Laul: But when it comes to taxes, your firm's structure might be quietly working against you. At Gelt, we specialize in helping architecture firms uncover hidden tax inefficiencies, from outdated ownership setups to missed expense opportunities and project-level tax traps. Even well-run studios can leave five figures on the table each year simply because their financial foundation hasn't evolved as the firm has. Gilt helps you design a smarter structure, one that turns your firm's growth into real savings and stronger take-home income. Gilt, tax strategy built for architects. Don't wait for next tax season.

52:22Chris Laul: Schedule your complimentary consultation at joingilt.com. That's J-O-I-N-G-E-L-T dot com to learn more and mention BOA when you sign up. If you're still tracking project costs and client invoices across three different spreadsheets, you already know how much time that steals from actual design work. Xero brings your invoicing, expenses, and project profitability into one place, built for firms who bill by project, not by the hour. Right now, Business of Architectural listeners can access a special Xero offer. Get 90 % off for six months through the link in our show notes. Terms and conditions apply.

53:01Chris Laul: Today's episode, the Business of Architecture show, is sponsored by Smart Practice TM, the world's leading step-by-step solution for architectural practice owners that want to structure their existing practice so the complexity of business doesn't get in the way of architecture. There's a point where successful people stop collecting free advice and start investing in the right advice. That's the shift from dabbling to leading. So if you're ready to quit being a glorified administrator and get back to the architecture again, go to smartpracticemethod.com to discover the proven, simple and easy to implement smart practice method that is revolutionizing firm management for owners and teams.

53:40Chris Laul: Hey, Ryan Willard here and I want to thank you for joining us today and remind you that the views expressed on this show by our guest do not represent those of the host and we make no representation, promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment except to help you do your best work and be handsomely paid for it. Carpe diem.