Building Better Homes Through Engineering, Commissioning, and Client-Centered Design | 710

0:00He would sit down in a meeting with a client and they would say, Gary, can you do this? And he'd say, yep. And we'd walk out of the meeting and say, Gary, we don't know how to do that. He said, I don't know. But somebody does and we'll go find that person and we'll bring them in and then we'll do it. Hello, Architect Nation, and welcome back. This is the right place for you if you run an architectural practice. Today, we're exploring how better coordination between architects and engineers can prevent costly problems, protect the client experience, and help a building perform as beautifully as it looks.

0:27On today's episode, you will discover why some of the biggest problems on high-end projects have nothing to do with design and everything to do with what happens after the drawings are finished. How asking one simple question about comfort can completely change the way a home is engineered, coordinated and ultimately experienced by the client. Why the firms delivering the best projects aren't treating engineering as a constraint. They're bringing it into the conversation early to create buildings that are quieter, healthier and perform exactly as intended. Today's guest is Wesley Van Wright, founder of Engineered Projects Consulting.

1:05Over the past two decades, he's built a career helping architects create buildings that don't just look exceptional, they perform exceptionally too. Drawing on his background in building science, commissioning and engineering, Wes works alongside leading residential design firms to bridge the gap between ambitious design and real-world building performance. I think you're going to enjoy the practical insights that he shares in this conversation. A while ago, we began to hear reports of a company that was helping some of our clients build remote teams. We looked into it more closely and discovered the company World Teams that was helping small architectural practitioners build remote teams that were both capable and qualified.

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2:24They have flexible contracts so you can adjust your team size as your needs evolve. Additionally, you're connected directly with your skilled professionals, which fosters trust and collaboration, and World Teams helps you reduce your operating cost without compromising the quality that's so important to a practice. To download a free guide for building a remote team for a small architectural practice, go to businessofarchitecture.com forward slash world teams. That's one word, businessofarchitecture.com forward slash world teams. As a reminder, sponsorship is not an endorsement and you must do your own due diligence before entering into any business relationship.

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3:57Wesley Van Rite: This episode is brought to you by our partner, Xero. If you're still tracking project costs and client invoices across three different spreadsheets, you already know how much time that steals from actual design work. Xero brings your invoicing, expenses, and project profitability into one place, built for firms who bill by project, not by the hour. Right now, Business of Architectural listeners can access a special Xero offer. Get 90 % off for six months through the link in our show notes. Terms and conditions apply. Wes, welcome to the Business of Architecture podcast. What a pleasure to have you.

4:31How are you? Thank you, Ryan. Thank you for having me. Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Really good to be speaking with you. And you are the owner of Engineered Projects Consulting, which is a firm. You're actually based where I am and you're in your holiday vacation home. You're based in Austin. And you guys are a firm specializing in mechanical, electrical, called plumbing, engineering, commissioning and building science consulting, which I think is really interesting because it's got this a lot of different disciplines there and you work very closely with architects. And I know you've got quite an extraordinary portfolio and you've collaborated with firms like Lake Flato and Olsen Kundig and Kliegerman and the Artisan Group.

5:16So you're very accustomed to working on kind of extraordinary buildings and and projects and i think it's interesting to to talk a little bit about you know where architects actually often misunderstand about building performance and how engineering can elevate design rather than being like a constraint which is often you know that there can be this sort of tension between the two disciplines at worst at best it can be something that's very much integrated and supportive so welcome to the show great to have you yeah yeah that's that's a fantastic synopsis I hope I can remember everything you said when people ask me what do you do because that was perfect so well let's let's talk a little bit about you didn't start your career as a traditional consulting engineer.

6:10So how did building automation and controls start to shape the way that you think about buildings today? Yeah, yeah. So actually, yeah, I started out in the building automation industry, kind of at the time that things were transitioning from old pneumatics into electronics. And electronics allowed us to get just a lot more information of tracking. And I really fell into the consulting side of that, which doesn't do well when you're job is in sales. So I transitioned out of that and really into the engineering world, studied for about three years at the Energy Systems Lab at Texas A &M University, which really fundamentally changed the way that I look at buildings.

6:54And from there, I started, I went into a very large mechanical electrical plumbing engineering firm, primarily as a commissioning agent. And so, you know, a lot of our architect friends are going to be familiar with having commissioning agents on large projects, large commercial projects where it's become code in, I would say, pretty much everywhere in the country. But they're not familiar with having a commissioning agent on a, say, a high-end residential project, which is what we do a lot of. And unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't know how you would put it, I drifted into this world because architects like Flato were having problems.

7:35They were having issues on projects and they were trying to figure out what's going on. And so what we were finding was there was a disconnect between the engineer and often even the architect from the time the systems were designed to when they actually got installed. And what we would find is we'd go into a house that was having an issue, a very, very nice home. And unfortunately, the clients were very upset. and would say, wait, this isn't at all what was designed. Why did this change? What changed? Why did you do it this way? And often there's very good reasons for that. There's very good reasons why a contractor or a builder or somebody like that would make a change and not follow the documents.

8:18But nobody knew that happened. And so that creates this gap, this gray area. And so filling in the pieces and understanding why. And then the architect says, well, why don't we do this before we build it? I'm like, well, that's how we would normally do this. That's what we call commissioning. And so, yes, that's that. And again, a lot of the clients, you mentioned Olson, Kundig, you mentioned Late Flight Oak. That is what has brought me into their projects is they've had a client that has had a bad experience. They've had a client that, you know, built something that was a dream home and they're not happy with it for one reason or another.

8:58And a lot of times, you know, what I'm focusing on is what I call the functional systems of the building. The HVAC system, that can create a lot of headaches for all of us if we don't get that right. But also the envelope. I consider the envelope part of the functional system. You know, what are we doing for windows? What are we doing for air tightness? What are our objectives there? because that can fundamentally change how we approach multiple things. So, you know, influencing that and really asking, getting in with the client. And this is where I think you alluded to, maybe we're missing some of the information when we're going into the design process, both architects and engineers.

9:40Really getting in with the client and asking them, what is important to you? What is comfort to you? What makes you comfortable? And it's crazy that, you know, the answers that I get back often are just missed in the design process. We have a client right now that's building a very, very, very nice home. This is his second one that he's built recently. And we're having this conversation and he tells me and the engineer in this conversation, I just want my wife to be happy. I just want her to be comfortable. and nobody in the AE team had heard that yet. And we're three quarters of the way through the design process.

10:23And so then we're like, okay, well, what makes her happy? What makes her comfortable? You know, what are her temperature requirements? What, you know, we find a lot of times our clients are very sensitive to noise, any kind of mechanical noise, airflow noise, very sensitive to airflow blowing on them. Um, and so they've had this experience and now, you know, somebody is asking them, what do you like? What do you not like? How can we, uh, how can we mitigate for that? How can we design around that? How can we design a system that helps you enjoy your home more? And, and, you know, the, the, I guess maybe the worst part about our job is that if we do everything correctly, nobody knows we exist.

11:04So, you know, there's that, but it's true. You know, if we do everything correctly, we don't get called back. We don't get those angry phone calls. We don't get, you know, we don't have to go back and figure out what happened. Why is this not working correctly? And so, you know, on the commissioning side, I follow the design process all the way through the process. Again, making sure that those priorities that our client has said, this is important to me, that I don't want this to happen again. I don't want to feel this like I feel in my other house. and making sure that that is incorporated into the design and that we're creating systems that will make sure that that doesn't happen again.

11:41And then once we get into construction, making sure that we're following the design. And as things change, we change. We are with it. We've had some pretty radical upheaval in the mechanical industry here recently with the refrigerant changes. And so if you designed a project, say, three years ago, and it's just now under construction, which is not uncommon, the equipment that you likely specified is not available anymore and so now it's left to somebody to decide okay what do we do and those systems with the new refrigerants actually operate significantly differently in some situations uh so we need to be engaged and we need to understand okay changes happen i don't i've never seen i've never produced a perfect set of drawings things change during construction and we need to follow those changes and make sure that we're not losing track of our priorities and we still provide a highly functioning high performance system also do design work as you mentioned mechanical electrical plumbing is our primary focus where where would you say you know is the is the kind of most common breakdown point during design and construction where kind of beautiful buildings begin to fail gosh that's a great question um and i wouldn't i don't know that there is one common one right i'll tell you like maybe i mentioned some of the pain points you know the airflow and noise and things like i want you know a lot of what we focus on is this extremely high and residential uh 10 000 square foot not uh we do some um multi-family mixed use commercial uh things like that but mostly high performance and so we have high expectations uh on our projects whether i'm on the design side or on the commissioning side.

13:26The client has high expectations. That's what they should. So biggest failure point. I focus a lot on how the client interacts with their systems. And I think that we are transitioning from where we were trying. It's kind of interesting, you know, the technology phases that we go through. We were trying to cram everything into one interface. at primarily that interface being like an iPhone or an iPad. And so we were trying to take, and I'm saying were, I am. This is from my perspective. I know that a lot of our clients prefer something like this, and a lot of our architects are going towards this because it removes devices.

14:10We don't have as much on the ceiling, on the walls. We're trying to, I think the phrase is wall acne. We're trying to reduce the wall acne. Yeah. I get that. But when our client can't intuitively change the temperature in their bedroom, that's a problem. When they have to go to their phone and they put their glasses on at 2 a.m. and they go to this app and the app's not working because it's doing some kind of update or something or, you know, the link has been lost or something. And now they got to put their shoes on. They got to walk down to the basement. And this is this is really real life.

14:47I see this a lot. You have to walk down to the basement, and then they get the glasses on. It's 2 a.m. They got the light on their phone, their boomer light. I think that's what kids call it. And they're trying to figure out which thermostat is it because there's this wall full of thermostats, and they're trying to figure out, I think this one's my bedroom. And they start pushing the button. And I've had this described to me multiple times, and the client's like, I get back in bed, and I'm angry. I'm upset that I had to go through that process because I'm cold. or I'm hot. And so I really focus on that interface, making it intuitive.

15:24If you have a home that you anticipate having a lot of guests, people coming in and out, you have to have something that is intuitive on the wall or someplace that is, again, intuitive, easy to find to be able to adjust the temperature. And people have wildly different temperature preferences. So that's probably... One of the biggest complaints that I get is our clients saying, you know, I don't know how to control my system. I don't know how to interface with my system. It's too complicated. It's too loud. That's the other one. You know, it turns on and off all night. It wakes me up when it turns on.

16:05It wakes me up when it turns off. That's pretty common. You know, on the envelope side, if we're building a high performance envelope, we don't have issues. If we're using, let's say, you know, insulation, exterior insulation, we're using high-quality air barriers, we're using high-quality windows. I hate to see a compromise between a high-quality triple pane window and an architectural requirement. There's a great architect in New York, your hometown, Michael M. Dewey, and he's one of the best promoters of passive house technology. and he is trying to show people how using high-performance envelope items like glazing, like high-performance triple-pane windows, actually frees you up and gives you more architectural options.

16:59Now you can add that north-facing huge pane of glass and get that beautiful view, whereas before you really wouldn't want to do that because your thermal envelope is really going to be compromised by doing that. So as long as we're really paying attention to that envelope, that makes everybody's life easier. Yeah. And including mine, it actually has made our design process maybe a little more complicated because we really, you know, the rules of thumb that we used to use have gone out the window. So when suddenly you're getting, you know, blower door tests that are coming back at one ACH, which is not uncommon, passive house is 0.6.

17:43So if you're going below that, that dramatically impacts our loads, whereas most code is three or maybe even higher. I think in Florida, it's seven. So, you know, when you're doing those load calculations and you start playing with that blower door test number, that ACH number. you'll see those loads go up and down dramatic. Same with, you know, insulation. So we have to pay more attention to what's going on with the envelope. But ultimately, you know, we all are in support of having a more resilient, quieter, higher performing envelope. Because I think we all experience what happens when you don't.

18:21You know, if you've got moisture intrusion, you've got bad thermal performance. You know, it's cold around the windows. We used to design where we would literally blow air from the HVAC system onto the windows because that's where the heat or cold was coming in. We're just attacking the windows, which is so wrong. It's just like we can do better. We can absolutely do better. What for you, you know, this is interesting because, you know, these are pieces that, as you said, if it works well, nobody notices it. nobody notices if it doesn't work well then it becomes a kind of constant source of irritation and it's almost like somebody's bought like a you know a tailored suit or a really expensive supercar and it's not you know there's this rattles or it doesn't fit properly um these kind of major irritations during the process um what kind of conversations are do you find are important to have with clients so that they need to know that there is a higher level of coordination that would be better for them right um and if they don't if it and yeah and then obviously there's going to be like a cost associated to it and it's very easy to dismiss it as just like well that's too expensive or i guess you're working with like super ultra high net worth individuals maybe you know the the budget is a lot more kind of um accepting but everyone has everyone everyone has a budget right and it's sort of no it's kind of surprising you know it really depends you know a lot of times it's a A couple that's retiring and they're building their ranch house.

19:57They bought a piece of property out in the hill country of Texas. And they're building a ranch house for their family to go and enjoy. And the systems are not overly complicated. But we still have an extremely high level of quality expectation. And that's what I really try to bring. And then, yes, like you said, all the way up to the ultra wealthy. I'm working on some projects right now that there's an elevation for every surface. Every single surface has some kind of millwork, has some kind of cabinetry, has some kind of like elevation, interior elevations. And so everything has to be coordinated perfectly because that millwork is ordered maybe a year in advance.

20:41It doesn't change. So we have to know where, if we have devices, where they're going to be located. Um, so that, you know, is a complication that's more, you know, on the performance side and more on the appearance side. Um, you know, uh, you, you asked about, you know, what kind of questions am I asking? What, what kind of conversations am I asking? You know, talks about, you know, that, that fundamental question of what is comfort to you? I just always start when I have the opportunity to talk directly with the client, not the architect. I mean, you guys probably know your client better than anybody.

21:16when we're coming in. I tell you who will know the client better than anybody is the interior designer because they spend so much time with the client and they just really get to know who they are and what really makes them happy. So that's a vital resource for me. That's really interesting that the interior designer often has the best sort of kind of emotional connection and understanding. But yeah, beyond that, what is comfort? What have you experienced that you like? What have you experienced that you don't like? You know, sometimes my clients will point to a car. I had a client that said, I love Porsches.

21:49I love old Porsches. I love working on them. I love that I can work on them. They're not complicated from an electronic perspective. Can you do that for my house? Can you make my systems that, can you focus on that? And he's literally, that's, you know, referencing a car and saying, can you take that as an influence and influence the mechanical design and make it like that? Like, yeah, that's fantastic. That is a fantastic piece of information. What have you liked? What have you not liked? You know, that's always really, really great. But then also, as we're going through the design process, continuing the conversation so that we're setting an expectation with the client.

22:29Okay, I heard you say this, and here's what we've done with that piece of information. Is this good? We are doing these systems because in this area of the country, this is really what is preferred. This is what's going to perform well for you. I know you said you wanted this, but we're recommending otherwise. Setting those expectations so that when they are handed the keys and they walk in, you know, move in and they're not upset because they got something other than what they expected. So, you know, continuing that conversation again, you know, asking the client, I've, I've sat in vehicles going from the airport to the house with physical printouts of pictures of thermostats.

23:18Is this, do you like this? Is this okay? Do you like the look of it? Do you like the feel of it? And I'm talking to the client because, you know, again, we have to tailor these things. And I get wildly different from the guy who wants it to be like a Porsche. He was like, kid, I just had a mechanical thermostat on the wall. Like, well, unfortunately, probably not. But we'll try to get as simple as possible. To the client that wants a really beautiful, elegant interface. And so, yeah, wildly different preferences. So, yeah, it's fun. It really is fun. It really is fun to understand what the client prefers.

23:56And what's really incredible is, again, from a design perspective, how they want to interface with the system can fundamentally change the design of the mechanical system, the HVAC, literally from the thermostat down the line. That can fundamentally change those systems. so in the world that you're in the the kind of luxury residential uh space and these are these are kind of quite extraordinary homes and and and it's a particular kind of client that you're working with as well what have you found like first of all how did you how did you get into this space because it's different it's it's it's you know it's it's bloody hard it's it's crazy um um how i got into it you know i i think like a whole lot of us my background was in commercial um i was working for a large engineering firm uh mep firm uh that we focused a lot on uh schools k-12 uh primarily public schools we had some private schools um a little bit churches but in texas i'm sure you've seen our schools are massive massive i mean everything is big here i was brought up in london so and now in new york my my little european brain is it explodes every time i see how much space and how big stuff is here in texas i had an internship with british telecom uh in london one summer and so i was there for about three months and it was fantastic but i had the same reaction when i came back to texas i landed in houston i'm looking around like oh my god everything is huge here it was it only took three months for my perception to change and and when i got back to texas i was like what are we doing this is nuts yeah yeah so i worked i worked for a large mvp firm doing uh design for these large schools that were building in texas large schools right and um that was a great experience um but it was also one of the most stressful experiences of my life.

25:59Um, that architectural world. And for those of you that are listening, that are in that 80 world of, uh, you'll, you'll, you'll identify with what I'm saying. It's so very, very stressful. It's so very competitive. Um, and it, it just, you know, it burned me out. Uh, and I had a really bad day and I sat down and started working on my LLC paperwork and I went until 4am and I had it done and then I actually slept and and it was just this feeling of relief like I don't have to do this forever I can I can actually do something else and before that I had had this feeling of I'm gonna be doing this forever this is really I enjoy the work but I don't enjoy the culture and um I just you know so I created this LLC I stayed with the firm for another three years, let them know what I was doing.

26:54They were completely supportive. And I've been so blessed to have so many wonderful mentors and engineers that I've worked for and building scientists. And it's just, when I look back, you say, how did I get here? I was like, it's crazy. I don't know. I can tell you how, you know, process of getting there, but, you know, it's just been a blessing. So I started EPC 2018. In 2020, I was actually in London. I had quit my job two weeks before COVID hit. And so I quit my full-paid job and was now working independently in this thing called COVID hit. And it was awful. Yay, great time to start your own business and give up that steady paycheck.

27:45But it all worked out. my wife and I actually had a development project in Austin that kept us fed for a couple of years while I was able to really get off the ground with my own design business and consulting business. And Lake Flato called. Lake Flato called me because of a firm that I work very closely with, Positive Energy, also based in Austin. They were having issues with some of the projects. They were having issues with performance. They were having issues with, envelope. They were having issues with all kinds of things and they were just, well, we don't know what's going on. Can you come in?

28:23Can you help us? Can you help us figure this out? And I developed my commissioning background at the Energy Systems Lab. That was one of the programs that they do is continuous commission and learning to go in and evaluate systems and really understand how systems work and why they may not be performing the way that they should, You know, really get into the design, understand the design and what's going on here. So when I went to work for the large MEP firm, they actually hired me as a commissioning agent. I said, I didn't want to be an engineer. I don't want to be a PE. That is too stressful.

28:56I mean, from everything that I experienced, it's too stressful. There's too much liability. I don't want to be a professional engineer. Well, now I'm a professional engineer for over 10 years. So here we are. um but um yeah so started the firm uh started really helping lake flato then like flato said you know can you help us on the design side i was like you know i really don't do that i don't again i want the stress i don't want the liability okay i'll do it and um i have one architect friend uh out on the west coast up in washington state and she is doing incredible stuff tessa bradley the artists and group i have to give them a shout out tessa's tessa and bruce are some of my favorite people in the world um and tessa was actually one of the first that i came back into the design world for uh because i didn't want uh i was having too much fun on the commissioning side um it's fun when you just get to tell people what you think and that you're not liable for it you know i wouldn't do that yeah it's a dumb idea i wouldn't do it i wouldn't do it like that don't do that you could you could try this this but i wouldn't do like that yeah another shout out to one of my mentors uh dr joe stebrick uh building science corp i had one of his favorite phrases that i quote all the time uh you know he says don't do dumb things don't do stupid things but he also says i can only think of one reason not to do that because it's stupid i i i long to have the prestige at least a level of prestige where i get to use that at a meeting you know i could just say i would i can only think of one reason not to do that because it's really dumb that's a really stupid idea but tessa bradley uh building their new office building tessa uh the artisan group they design at passive house level for all right they accept nothing less even if it doesn't get certified, even if they're not pursuing certification, that is the level that they designed to, including their new office building in Tumwater, Washington, which is absolutely beautiful.

31:00They did a fantastic job. I saw a presentation that she gave. I don't remember what conference or where it was. And I just said, I have to work with this person. She grabbed me. She got my attention. And so I called my good friend, Miguel at Positive Energy, and I said, do you have her contact information? He said, actually, we're doing design work for her. Yes. I think this would be a great introduction. Get in touch with Tessa. I said, I have to work with you. I love everything you're doing. And she said, would you design our new office building? I said, okay, yeah, I'll do it. And so that really helped me get over the hump, get over my fears and my experience that I had had previously in the design world as a project manager and come back into it.

31:50And now I have a fantastic team of engineers. I have the best team of engineers. How many are you? You know, it varies. I contract with my engineers, and so I bring in the right crew for the right project. right i've got fantastic mechanical uh electrical plumbing engineers that i work with um three to five usually on any project uh geothermal uh have a great geothermal farm so if you're thinking about doing geothermal um these guys are incredible they've done projects all over the country um big and small uh we i'm trying to get away from using rules of thumb on geothermal and really getting into the micro climate and the micro area, I guess is what I would say.

32:42And understanding, that's what these guys do is they understand the geology. They understand really the requirements of the home or the building or whatever it is, office complex. And they only drill as much as necessary. I think we overdrill on most of our projects because we use these rules of thumb and drilling can be very, very expensive. So that's been a new experience for me is to really refine how we look at geothermal projects to make them perform better and make them more affordable, more approachable. So it varies. You know, it varies. I bring in different consultants for different projects depending on what they think.

33:18Have you deliberately wanted to keep the business like a kind of boutique type of form or would you want to build it out to like a much larger behemoth? I kind of anticipated that question. I was thinking you might ask that. It's interesting. I have a lot of engineer friends that are in larger firms, and they send me business because the project is either too small or the timeline doesn't work for them, or they just don't do that kind of engineering. And so I think the advantage of being structured like we are is we can take on just about anything and we can take on just about any timeline. When you start getting into the larger firms, the weight of that structure really limits.

34:07It's kind of counterintuitive. The weight of that structure limits what you can do. I think, you know, the projects where we are not. And so I mentioned positive energy earlier. Positive Energy does a lot of the projects that are designed. They do the design on these projects that are, let's say, 10, 15, 20 ,000 square feet, three-year construction schedule, two-year design process. That would be very difficult for us to do. But the one that is being built as soon as the ground thaws in the spring, hey, Wes, can you get us a set of permit documents by Thanksgiving? thing yeah that's perfect for us and we're gonna you know we'll start construction next year and we're gonna build it in 12 to 18 months that's perfect for us we can hit those every day i love that we can scale up to uh some bigger projects and i think we would like to because all of us you know our background is in commercial uh but being small being agile is a lot of fun um it really is uh i i love being an engineer i love being a building scientist i don't like being a bookkeeper and accountant um yeah so you know that that's getting to do what we love is really really fun um you know i don't know where it's gonna go i i how have you how have you kept i know you were great in the questions i are we sent out to you and you were you know quite open with some of the financials about the business um and you're looking at some of your profitability you know that you're operating in that sort of 10 25 percent which is you know up to the 25 above that that's super healthy what sorts of disciplines or operational disciplines have you put in that have allowed you number one to not have to become an accountant where you're looking after everything but also have allowed you to be fully engaged with the work of that you love doing and maintain those healthy margins?

36:06You know, I'm working for myself. I don't have employees. My costs are pretty low. You know, the biggest cost that we typically face on any project is going to be my sub-consultants. And typically, they are also working for themselves. So, you know, that number, that profitability number was hard for me to come up with because I hadn't really thought about it. You know, when I started putting out fee proposals for design work and fee proposals for commissioning, I'm thinking, okay, how much do I want to work? How much time do I really think this is going to take me? How much bandwidth do I have?

36:47And how much money do I want to make at the end of the year? What's a reasonable amount of money for an experienced engineer if I was working at a typical firm? You know, I don't want that job again. I don't want to work for a typical engineering firm again. But I want to make that kind of money, you know, and so for more. And so, you know, I approached it from that perspective. I was like, okay, if I think this job is going to take 20 % of my time this year, then it probably should be 20 % of that number that I would like to get to this year. So that's kind of how I approach it. And I think it's how my guys approach it as well.

37:21I also just look at it from an hourly fee structure. You know, I just, I charge flat rate hourly fees for some projects where they don't need me full time. They just need me to come in here and there. And again, it's like, what is my time worth? You know, if I was working for a large engineering firm, what would that engineering firm be charging for my time? So I can buy that as well. I mean, structures, I wish I had a more intelligent answer to say, you know, I developed this business plan and I abide by this and I do that. You know, it really, I try to follow the culture of the projects. I try to be smart about what projects we take.

38:05I try to recognize, I think at this point in my experience, I can kind of smell out which projects seem small but are going to require an intense effort. And yeah, just try and maintain that concept of lifestyle. You started doing this for a reason. You started doing this. You left that big engineering firm that was a very comfortable place with people that you love. It was the hardest decision I've ever made. It was really, really agonizing to tell my boss, who is one of my best friends. I gave him six months notice. I said, I'm sorry and I love you. Did you know that is like every employer's dream?

38:46You've got one of your top guys gives you six months notice. You might think, I've got six months to enroll him to staying. Or at least bring me somebody to train to do what I do. Not that I was that valuable or irreplaceable. Sure. You know, it was such a hard decision. And he's still one of my best friends. I mean, I really respect you for that, Wes. That says a lot about you and your character that you would kind of craft out and tell your employer here six months and then be involved in the next sit and not do it kind of suddenly and see you later and leave somebody in the lurch. They were so good to me and they gave me so many opportunities that other firms wouldn't have.

39:28So, you know, it was just the right thing to do. And again, he's my boss and a lot of the people there are still really, really good friends. My former boss, his daughters call me uncle. So, I mean, that's how close we are. Um, so, um, but yeah, I, I know what I don't want. Just like my clients. What do you like? I know what I don't want. I know what I want. Lifestyle wise. I want to be up here in Colorado in the summers. Uh, we, my wife and I both own our own businesses and we carve out time every week to go fishing or go hiking or go do something. Yesterday afternoon, we had the wonderful opportunity to go fishing and, you know, so lifestyle, lifestyle is just really important for me.

40:10And when I think, you know, people say, when are you going to retire? I don't want to. I'm having too much fun. This is great. And I think my wife feels the same way. So that has become priority number one. And so I don't know how you do the math with, you know, lifestyle determines your accounting, but it kind of does. Absolutely. I think it's the most important thing is that our businesses are there to serve our lives, not our lives serving our business. and that we can create a vehicle for a lifestyle that we want to have. And ultimately, designing a business is designing how I want to live.

40:50Right. And it becomes responsible, like, I'm going to make a vehicle that allows me to do those sorts of things. I mean, it really is a blessing. I hope that everybody has the chance and opportunity, if you're working as an architect, you know to you know step in on your own if you're not enjoying what you're doing if you're working as an engineer step in on your own you'll be surprised when you start looking around for opportunities how much opportunity there is and how you can you think it's impossible like i did i didn't think i was ever going to be able to do this but it's absolutely possible and i'm not i'm not the best engineer i'm not but but it is possible when you have your contracts who are you working for are you do you go in under a sort of design group that the architect is leading or do you work directly with a contract with the client do you have a preference yeah it's all of the above um a lot of times if we're on the design side uh primarily we would be contracted under an architect.

41:57We do some design where we contract directly with the client. And those are smaller projects where the client is wanting to act as the general contractor or the primary lead on a project. But I would say 90 % of our design projects, we contract with the architectural firm that's leading the project. And that's just the traditional structure and It works great. With the commissioning side, most of my contracts are with owner's reps. So I do some work with Alpine Brody. They are a big owner's rep firm. They do fantastic work of not only creating an amazing project and an amazing experience for their client, But they do a fantastic job of creating an amazing culture for the project.

42:50And I think we don't think about that very often. I don't think we think about what is the culture, the construction culture of this? What's the design culture of this project? Are people excited to work on this project or do they hate it? And so that is one of the things that I think is really unique about that particular owner's representative firm, Alpine Brody. I also do some work with Peak. Peak is also fantastic, doing amazing projects. Ultimately, those guys are looking out for their owner. That's their job. They're there to be the owner's advocate. They're there to make sure that the owner's requirements are picked up.

43:30And so I kind of naturally dovetail into that world when I'm on the commissioning or consulting side. So those are my two primaries. I've done some direct builder stuff where they need, you know, a set of drawings to get through permits or something like that. But not very much. i i've noticed uh throughout our conversation you've been very good at acknowledging you know clients partners other consultants architects that you've been working with and usually that that tells me something about you as a business person that you're you know you're interested in the business of other people and you know as a business owner like that's actually one of the best it's one of the best ways to just exist in the world where we're kind of looking out for other people as a way of developing and creating a network and um and growing how how have you gone about winning work and what's what kind of secrets or keys do you deploy in terms of developing good lasting relationships with your consultants um i think it's exactly that i think it is a lot about learning, okay, what if, if I'm working for an architect, what, what, what is going to make this project a success for you?

44:49Is it timeline? Is it budget? You know, those two are really critical. Um, let's talk about our client. What, what are there, you know, what do we do for, you know, how do, how do I make you successful? You know, cause if I make you successful, then you're probably going to reward me with more work. Um, so I think, you know, that's, that's business 101. I mean, that's sales 101. I started out in sales. My dad was a salesman for 50 years. and also in the building science industry. So I learned a lot from him and the way that he treated his clients. When I first got into the sales world, it wasn't that way.

45:24They wanted us to find ways to take advantage of our clients, essentially. They wanted us to find loopholes. They wanted us to find ways that we could gain an advantage and get that job. And I really didn't like that. I wanted to be that consultant. I wanted to be that consultative salesperson. And I have a fantastic mentor that she's now a professor at Oklahoma OU, Brandy Maness. And she was so influential and so helpful to me to develop that consultative sales type mentality. Because I saw what they were doing. I didn't like it, but I didn't know how to like it, how to find a way to like it.

46:04But yeah, find a way to help your client be successful. Find a way to help, even if it's the owner, if it's the actual client, what does success look like for you? What does it win? And again, being an entrepreneur, I am thoroughly interested in other people's business and how they run their business. I found your podcast to be so incredibly interesting because I want to learn about other people's businesses. um my wife does family office work and i'm always we were talking about net jets the other day i was like how does that work how are you how do you you know if you have a client that is interested in a private jet versus a net you know a contract type thing you know how do you do the math on that and so yeah just i'm a nerd when it comes to that kind of stuff um tell us a little bit more about the diagnostic or consultative selling aspect and what that what that means for you and what does your process look like because this is something i'm very like a advocate for generally with architects is that you know just this art of asking more questions up front is is it's such a it's such a deep art as well like we can really undermine it and and sort of just think oh selling is just a couple of questions or just put me in front of a client and I can wow them.

47:28And it really isn't. It's a much, much deeper communication art. So I would love to hear your approach. I think there is some of that. I think there is some of like, let me show you my portfolio. I mean, that's awesome. And I think our clients are attracted to a certain firm because of their portfolio. Maybe they've seen an Olsen-Kundig house or a Klingerman house or something. And they say, I really like that style. That is really, you know, someday I want that. And I get, I mean, that's absolutely right. But I think also narrow ourselves, and this is true in the engineering world, where, you know, we, I've actually reviewed designs where the engineer has done the same exact system, changed the calculations a little bit, but they've got a project in Michigan and they've got a project in California.

48:17And they're using exactly the same design, change the numbers according to the loads, change the name and date. And so we can get tight and we get into that world where it's copy and paste. And I don't think that's good for any of our clients. So, you know, you balance that. You know, you have a portfolio, have a style. You know, Frank Lord Wright was notorious for this. And we all know this. We've all heard this lesson. You know, he told the client what they were going to get. So we can't do that. But we also have to practice our stuff. We have to practice what we're good at, balance that. You know, the consultative sales that you asked about that, I go back to what we do with commissioning.

48:59So being on both sides, whether you're the design engineer or you're the commissioner, it's a very different role. And being able to come into a project that you're not the design engineer, you're not the professional engineer on this project. But your job is to understand the logic behind what the design engineer has produced. And so I have to get into that set of drawings. And it's not my job to say, well, I wouldn't have done it like that. This is the way I do it. This is the way you should do it because this is how I do it. No, I have to understand and thoroughly get why they designed it in that way.

49:39Is it the climate? Is it the client? Is it the architect? Is it the, you know, what is it? Okay. And then start really, you know, working my way into that project and say, oh, okay. That one just this week, I looked at it. I've looked at previous projects that this group has done. And I was like, man, I don't like that. I don't get it. I don't understand why they're doing that. It seems like there's a better way. But once I got in with them and had a meeting with them and really asked the questions and got to understand, oh, actually, that's pretty cool. That's a great idea. I like that a lot.

50:11I get it while you're doing that. But, you know, my initial impression of the design when I got into it was like, yeah, there's a lot of extra equipment here. I think we could do this in a more affordable way. I think we could do it, you know, potentially better if we did this that way or whatever. But then, you know, allowing yourself to be open and allowing yourself to ask those questions and not let your design experience rule the day. Get in there, understand whether it's the client, whether it's the climate, whether it's the architect, whether it's the engineer, whatever, all of those factors combined.

50:44You have to, I mean, that is our job as commissioning engineers is to take that consultative sales approach. So, yeah, whether it's sales or whether it's commissioning or whether it's design, it's all the same. But let me understand. Let me understand what your priorities are. And maybe I haven't. Fortunately, I've not run into it yet on the high end residential side, at least architects that I don't mesh with. But I haven't found that yet. All of the architects that I've worked with on the high end residential side, really since I started my own firm had been wonderful. I didn't know that architects could be this one.

51:27From my previous experience, I did not know that you could, you know, have fun in a project with an architect. So thank you to all of my clients for being fun. I love that. I think that's a very positive note to conclude on, actually. One last question. if you were to kind of go back to when you first founded the company and give yourself a piece of advice about a piece of business advice, whether it's to do with working with clients or retaining clients or winning work or creating meaningful relationships or being profitable, what piece of advice would you give yourself? I think what I just kind of...

52:19we just kind of talked about as being more open. I, I, again, my previous experience in the AE community was not good and it was so stressful that led me to be pretty closed off to a lot of opportunities that I really should have been more open to. Um, and I guess that's natural. Um, but you know, one of my, one of my other mentors, um, I was really fascinating when I started working with him, he would sit down in a meeting with a client and they would say, Gary, can you do this? And he'd say, yep. What do you think? We need somebody to do this. Okay, we'll do that. And we'd walk out of the meeting and say, Gary, we don't know how to do that.

52:59He said, I know. I know, but somebody does and we'll go find that person and we'll bring them in and then we'll do it. I was like, that is, that's incredible. He couldn't say no. He never said no. Anytime a client asked him for something he said yes and that was just fantastic i mean you get yourself in trouble by doing that but it's also just having that you know yes instead of no having that yes in the front of your brain i'm gonna find a way to do this for this client i wish i had carried that approach with me when i first started because yeah it's it's a really interesting one that right because there's different types of of yeses there's the yes when you're just being agreeable and then I'm getting yourself into a problem where now you're doing stuff for free.

53:48And then there's the yes where you're in possibility. Really good point. And you're coming from a yes, which is what your mentor sounds like. He was saying, yeah, we're going to say yes. We're going to figure this out. And that's very entrepreneurial where you kind of throw your hat over the wall. Don't know how I'm going to get my hat, but we're going to do it. Yes, we can do it. You can get yourself into trouble, like you say, if you're in a project and your client keeps asking for more and more and more and you keep saying yes, yes, yes, you can suddenly find yourself underwater, overwhelmed.

54:20And that takes away from your initial and primary purpose in that project. But when you're sitting in a client's office and they say, we don't know how to handle this. We're trying to find somebody that can help us with this. That's how we got into the commissioning business was a lure of this before they, that's why they hired me, was they were sitting in the client's office and the client says, this has become a code requirement. I know your engineering firm doesn't do this or I don't see that you do this. Can you guys start with, can you provide commissioning to us? And Gary said, yes. And they hired me.

54:59And they said, can you do this? And I said, I can. And so we were then able to provide another service to our clients that became a very growing, rapidly growing business. So I think that's primarily it. Just have a more open mind, be more open to opportunities. And yeah, I think that's it. Amazing. Brilliant. Well, Wes, thank you so much for allowing us to kind of peer inside of your organization and for you to share your business wisdom with us. that was really inspiring and it's just it's it's it is experience um i you know and i often say just because you've been doing a long time doesn't mean you're good at it so

55:50thank you ryan this has been awesome thank you remember when you became an architect to actually architect things instead you've joined thousands of firm owners trapped in admin hell where spreadsheets multiply and your design passion slowly dies the delegation roadmap smart practice tool gives you a proven system to identify which tasks are stealing 150 000 plus of your time annually and how to get them off your plate for good your family misses you your creativity is gathering dust and your firm is waiting for you to lead it properly get this tool 100 free by going to www.businessofarchitecture.com forward slash delegate.

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58:57Wesley Van Rite: This episode is brought to you by our partner, Xero. If you're still tracking project costs and client invoices across three different spreadsheets, you already know how much time that steals from actual design work. Xero brings your invoicing, expenses, and project profitability into one place. Built for firms who build by project, not by the hour. Right now, Business of Architecture listeners can access a special zero offer. Get 90 % off for six months through the link in our show notes. Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode of the Business of Architecture show is sponsored by Smart Practice TM, the world's leading step-by-step solution for architectural practice owners that want to structure their existing practice so the complexity of business doesn't get in the way of the architecture because you see the clients who win aren't the ones chasing the next free tip they're the ones who get advice tailored to them and that's why they move faster avoid mistakes and hit their goals so if you're ready to quit being a glorified administrator and get back to architecture again go to smartpracticemethod.com to discover the proven simple and easy to implement smart practice method that is revolutionizing firm management for owners and teams hey ryan Willard here and I want to thank you for joining us today and remind you that the views expressed on the show by our guests do not represent those of the host and we make no representation, promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment except to help you do your best work and be handsomely paid for it.

1:00:23Carpe diem.