How an Architecture Firm Evolves: Pricing, Confidence, and Leadership | 703

0:00Morning routines are great, but not if you're in a trench. Hello, Architect Nation, and welcome back. This is the place for you if you want to run a successful architectural practice. And on today's episode, you'll discover why sometimes doing exactly what the client wants might actually be the wrong move, and when it's worth taking a risk to present a different idea than the one the client has in mind. You'll discover why and how some small firms quietly lose thousands of dollars in profit, not because of bad clients, but because of decisions that they never question. And you'll also discover the uncomfortable shift that turns you from, I'm just doing the work, into someone who actually drives the business forward.

0:49And today, I'm joined by architect and co-founder of F9 Productions, Alex Gore. him and his partner Lance Psycho. They also run the popular Inside the Firm podcast and we've had them here on the Business of Architecture podcast several times. So if you haven't already been familiarized with Alex's work and Lance's work, you can check out their architecture firm in the show notes or go to F9 Productions. It was an awesome opportunity to catch up with Alex today because over the years, he's seen an evolution in the way he approaches his schedule, the lessons about how he runs his firm based upon when he first started, and even based upon a shift in the way that they, the information they released early on about how they ran their firm in now.

1:40So there's been some really good information here about how he's evolved over time. And I'm super excited to have you experience this episode so you can apply these lessons in your own practice, in your own firm, to build the kind of life that you truly deserve and want to build. Alex and his partner Lance, along the way, they've built a reputation for making bold design decisions, being open and transparent about their business strategy, and sharing their day-to-day realities of running the firm on their podcast. So with that, here we go. Three, two, one, off we go. Hello, Architect Nation. Welcome back.

2:21Today, I'm speaking with Alex Gore. He's one of the hosts of the very popular podcast, Inside the Firm. Glad to have you on. Hey, Enoch, we've go back for a long time, so it's always great to talk to you. Yeah, I was thinking about that. I remember. Do you remember the first time we met in person? Probably 2013. That was about that. Yep. And because I met circumstances, I met my wife in 2012 and then I'm a go getter. And, uh, maybe this is business advice. When I decided to have a wife, well, I wanted a wife. I dated for that purpose. So I w I would date multiple, you know, like I would get on dates and then if it wasn't going, like I would just end it, you know, I'd say, Hey, and, and I even had like a routine because, you know, like that's not normal just to like go on a couple of dates and end it.

3:12Maybe it is now. But anyways, I proposed to my wife on our year anniversary. So, oh, that's funny. But I had to ask her dad beforehand. So we were in California and I was listening to you and you were in the next town over. So I emailed you and said, hey, can I come meet you? We had like eggs. Like we went out and had breakfast or something like that. I remember it was the Black Bear Diner, I think. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So it was probably in 2012, knowing how fast I move. And that's how we met. Yeah. But I was probably listening to you for a year or two before that. When did you start the firm? I mean, yeah, so this podcast, yeah, podcast started in 20, would have been January 2012.

3:52So it was probably pretty soon. But before I started the podcast, I, you know, that was back in the day when blogs were a thing. Yes. And I probably had the blog going for a good year and had quite an audience before I ever started the podcast. So you, I'm sure we were connected that way as well. Yep. Absolutely. It's so funny because, you know, from my perspective, you were like the original, one of the originals, you know, OG. And looking back in on timeframe, like, you're like, oh, I've been doing this for six, eight months. Yeah, I know. I know. It's so funny. Yeah, those were those were good times.

4:26And that, you know, you talk about the OGs, there was definitely what happened in 2000 and 2008, 2009, really massively impacted the architecture industry. And I remember at that time with the advent of podcasting, the advent of content, you know, Content was king. There was a whole group of bloggers who were in the architecture space blogging about everything from architecture to business. And definitely, those people are still around. I'm one of them. You're one of them. You came on board a little bit later, but had taken off like a rocket ship. So you guys founded, you and Lance founded the firm F9 Productions back around 2009.

5:09Yep, yep. And essentially the really quick is like everyone, we were young, meaning I graduated in 08 and then was working out for Daniel Liebskin. Um, and it was first a trial and then he hired me and then September happened, um, which was the crash. And then I think I got laid off in February or something around then, you know, um, then went back and it took me a year to get my master's in construction management. because I basically had everything but a couple courses. And then that May in 2009, we basically started it up because we couldn't find anything. We couldn't find jobs. Lance basically had to go back to his bootstraps and was like a carpenter and then started to get some work.

5:56And then we started winning work. And just out of... It was actually my dining room in an apartment is where we were to... You know, over the first couple of years, it was just us. And then we would hover around one to two, then we got to like three to five. And then now we've been around nine to 11 around there. We kind of like a cap of around 12. And the reason there's a couple of reason why is because we've seen engineering firms, you know, be at our size and then grow past us, which is totally fine. but just the level of customer care and principal involvement shot down. And if you're doing what you love, and I don't mean to sugarcoat architecture because you talk to bureaucrats, clients can be a pain, citizens can be horrible, you know, so all that.

6:53But if we want to stay involved, that's the level that we can stay involved with, you know, with that 12 people where we can still kind of be there. and it was so funny sorry to pontificate but i was uh there was two instances in the last couple days i got a new iphone right got a new iphone and iphones are easy to transfer do you have an iphone i do yeah it's amazing how easy they are nowadays yep so like you're supposed to be and my wife got a new phone and she had an android hers switched over in two seconds mine literally took half a day, half a day to do it. And they said they don't have the cords that connect, you know?

7:37And I imagine because I'm just sitting there and actually, I actually went home. I went on a jog, you know, like I came back and you could imagine talking to these Apple engineers and they'd be like, well, no, with Bluetooth, once the connection is established, it's the same thing as if it's plugged in and, you know, like they're more technical, they would know more, they would tell you why it's not necessary. And going back to it is like, well, if you connect the phones, and then you just literally in the settings hit a force transfer, they're like, we would have went from four hours down to, I don't know, 10 minutes, something like that.

8:14And what I'm getting at is that when you get big enough, and Apple is way bigger than us. So like, the analogy works just because it's so massive of a difference is that, well, Tim Cook isn't going to an Apple store and like going through this and making these decisions and being like, no, no, no, I'm making an Apple and Apple is supposed to be seamless and Apple is supposed to be intuitive. And that, you know, like this should be figured, you know, like this can't happen. You know, we have enough money to fix this. Cords aren't going to be the problem. You know, there's this, and there was, there was a couple other things where it was like if the founder was involved this would be unacceptable like this would be an unacceptable thing but i understand that there's trade-offs and that tim cook makes millions and millions or a billion dollars i have no idea he probably makes a billion dollars right so like okay that's okay but to us that like there's some things that are still unacceptable to us.

9:19And we like that and we're okay with that. That makes sense. Yeah, of course it does. Yeah. I mean, it's part of the founder's dilemma, right? And the question I would always ask is, could you have a team that would be so fastidious about their standards that they could carry it forward without you guys having to sweat that? Yeah. And I think what I learned, one of the things I've learned is that they have to be invested on different levels, right? So yes, there's the culture. Yes, you have to pay them. But then two, like on these nitty gritty things that you feel aligned with your value proposition, which then leads to more customer acquisition and more clients and hopefully better price ranges, is that they need to be financially tied to the reward side too.

10:16And I think that that's the difference. That's one of the differences there. Because you can get people that just care and are great employees, and they are. But there's just this extra, extra level when you're like, oh, you get the upside too. So do you now understand? And, you know, because we learned this with sales is that you've, everyone has probably heard that a lot of salespeople get a commission. Well, commissions aren't normal in architecture to give, right? And if they're just doing their job, whether they get a sale or not, they get the salary. But if your salesman people are part of the ownership, now they understand like, oh, no, no, no, no.

11:04This is what makes our bonuses work. Like this is what, you know, there's just that different level there. Yeah, yeah. You know, that's so important when we're talking about leadership and business. And it's something that I've looked at with fascination. Because what I've discovered is that a lot of times intellectually, what we think is required to create a high-performing team or team members who are switched on or that kind of organization where the iPhone would be a seamless transfer because everyone at every level is striving for excellence. in reality we're human beings we're psychological beings and oftentimes we do things that aren't necessarily rational so for instance yes monetary incentives actually matter yeah it might be a nice maybe a nice like yeah it's it's this great like kumbaya feeling of oh yeah we just get people who want to work really hard and they want to contribute to the bottom line everyone's in it because we're a family.

11:59That's all nice. And what I've also experienced just through human nature, the way things actually work, is that you put an incentive on it that it's tied to some sort of performance and people work harder for it. They're more engaged because they have something at risk and something on the line. Yeah. And too, it's so I remembered my second example, and maybe this links to some of your business knowledge. And I'll lay out the scenario first. there's this pizza shop that's delicious in Longmont. About 15 minutes away is where I live is Firestone. It's like a little nothing community. Like downtown is, you know, old buildings and small, but they have new stuff in there, good stuff.

12:39Anyways, in Longmont, this pizza place, they have these amazing M &M brownies. Most delicious brownies I've ever had in my life. So every time I go there, I get one. Three quarters of the time, they are sold out. they just, they're like, oh, sorry, we don't have them. We don't have them. On the back of the wrapper, I saw, oh, made in Firestone. It's also Frederick. Frederick and Firestone are kind of like one town. And I'm like, that's great. My wife actually goes and gets coffee with her girlfriends there all the time. And I'm obviously always by there. So like, oh, I'll just stop by on my way home and I'll get one of these as a treat.

13:13And I go there and I ask, hey, do you have any of these M &M, you know, ones? And the owner is there, the guy who actually makes it. And he owns the whole thing. It's just small town stuff, right? He's like, no, I don't. And he's like, I don't make those that often. I don't make those that often. The pizza place knows that they sell out because when I asked, they're like, oh yeah, everyone keeps asking. We're always out. I don't know where the manager of that is. And it might like the manager, maybe it's the owner. I don't know where the owner is because everyone would buy these. These are absolutely delicious.

13:49And not only is he missing out on the sales of these, like I've even driving by, like, I don't, I don't smoke. I don't drink. I do sometimes nicotine pouches, whatever. But like, this will be my, my thing. Like once a month, like, oh, it's construction sucks. I'll go get one. Well, I'm not going to buy it. Instead of getting drunk, I'm going to have myself a yummy brownie. Yeah. Let's go. So like the pizza place is missing out. And then the other place doesn't even know that they could be selling whole sheets every day of this stuff. And there's just like the missed opportunities because I think how this aligns maybe to our talk is like, oh, people are just doing their job.

14:30Like the cash register guy, like, oh, I just sell what's here. Oh, that's not here. Do I tell the manager, you know, like, hey, everyone asks for these. We're always out. if the manager doesn't do anything, do I tell the owner? And then guess what? You might be jumping the boat, but you also might be like, the owner might say, well, I know who the next manager is going to be. The guy who actually pays attention to what's going on. Yeah. I love that. And it's something that we refer to the entrepreneurial spirit. That's what I like to call it. It's not just having a clock in, clock out kind of, I'm going to push buttons and move papers around, which is valuable, absolutely.

15:12And on top of that, what can be really valuable in a business is someone who has an entrepreneurial spirit. They're always looking for ways to improve. They're looking for things that aren't working. And my guess is that everyone listening to this podcast already has that entrepreneurial spirit. Otherwise, why would they be tuning into the Business of Architecture podcast? Right. Yeah. And we see this as as we work with firms where they have firm owner transitions, when the firm owner is trying to transition the firm to a team where they just lack the entrepreneurial spirit. It's not right or wrong.

15:41They just it's just not in their DNA. It's a lot harder as opposed to when they actually, of course, when they when they have a team member that has an entrepreneurial spirit, you almost don't even need to tell them what to do because they drive it forward. They know they're looking for the sales opportunity for the brownies. They approach the owner. Hey, by the way, did you know that that bakery, they don't even make those that often? And our markup on these is like 300%. And we could probably add$300 per day in brownies to our sales at the store. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It is hard too because I think a lot of things can be taught.

16:20A lot of things can be taught.

16:25but you can't learn a thing that you don't want to learn. That's at the end of the day. That's it. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. You can't teach. I'm sure there's a, you know, a good phrase, but like you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, let's talk about, this is a great chance to catch up. We have you on here about once a year, which is fantastic. Love it. before the show, we were talking, hey, why don't you share about some things that you might do differently knowing what you know now or how your routines have changed over time? Let's run through that. Let's do a little, give our audience kind of, we're going to talk about the evolution of a businessman, evolution of a firm, and we'll use you guys as a case study.

17:08So when I was thinking about talking to you and everyone here, my thought came is, especially if they listen to Inside the Firm podcast, it's like you'll say stuff. I'm sure you've said stuff too, where it's like, especially since our podcast is us kind of reacting to what's going on, you know, in the day to day, some of it might be, you know, emotional. It might be like, you know, do this or do that. Yeah. So what are the ones, there's a couple of ones that I feel like I've said where I'm like, that's not how we operate now. You know, like, that's not what we do now. So like, if someone heard that a year ago, two years ago, five years ago, And it's like, that's the way, but it's not the way, you know?

17:49And I have a couple stories and we'll start with, I think maybe this is the most valuable thing for listeners to get is whatever you're listening to, think about the environment of which it's coming from. Think about the environment, right? So like, even if it's not me or you, if it's somewhere, if it's another business podcast and never their sports star, there's phases. So let's just use sports because it's the most easy, right? There's the hungry 19 to 22-year-olds that's trying to make it into the pros. Then there's them in the pros and then them afterwards. And what they say in those different stages, like what they might say at the end after they're most successful and saying, like, this is what I do, a 20-year-old might take that.

18:37And that actually might be the wrong information for them because that's not even how that person operated when they were 20. You know, and they'll say like, this is the way to do it, but, but it's not. So to think about, so that's almost just cautioning people, you know, even thinking about where I'm coming from and all that. So in the beginning, when we, that environment that we were in, it was at, it was after the great recession. So it was 2009, 2010 frame framework. And we couldn't get big commissions because no one had any money. So we were doing all small stuff and we were not getting great fees and we were literally trying to live by the skin, you know, like the back of our skin and just make it.

19:24And I remember one time we had this owner and they were doing a mountain house. I don't think either one of them got built. But anyways, we designed what they wanted, you know, like, oh, here's their program. and then I go, well, here's what I think they should put here. Here's what I think should put there. And they didn't like it. And they said, no, we don't want to do it. We want to develop this one. And it was Lance and I, and he was like, we need to never do that again. And the reason why was like the amount of time and effort on something that just got squashed when you're so hungry and And so lean doesn't make too much business sense in the short term.

20:08And we were short-term thinking at that point, you know, versus long-term thinking like, oh, that's just, that was just a whiff. And, you know, like going back to the sports analogy, well, you get three strikes, you know. So what? You took a swing at it. where now we've done the opposite where we've only done one option for people. We've even done what a lot of high-end architecture firms do is they'll do what the client wants. They'll do what they want. We've even thrown away what the client want and only said this. And it's actually, it's worked out and it hasn't worked out. But we view ourselves, it does get bad when you just ram your own stuff down clients' throats because then you're just designing for your own portfolio and you're not actually serving the client.

21:04And that's one of our principles. And then we've done where, hey, here's what you want. Here's what we think will work best for you. And they've even chosen it or not. And that's totally fine. And I'm not saying you have to have like that, here's what you want and here's what we want on every single one. Or either one of those scenarios, any three of those scenarios, I think situationally you should think. Because it is sometimes okay for them to say like, oh, they want this, but I'm going to present this and I'm going to throw that other one in the trash based on judgment and experience. experience sometimes the last one that i did it was here's what they want here's what i think you know is also very good um and i had no problem throwing the other one in the trash once they said no because i knew that they had a tight budget and i told them like my option will be more expensive and if it hits you on that gut level and it can stretch because sometimes clients don't really tell you because both of them broke the bank both of them like broke the bank and they're like oh we're going to break the bank with their original one not not with this other one and that's totally fine too that's totally fine too so that big one is just like to think about what you're presenting how you're presenting and then why you're presenting it and you don't have to be so formulaic in it that makes it yeah what i love about that al is that there's it's a really great example that there's not one single answer for every situation or every firm, right?

22:45We could, you know, never on the podcast have we said there's one answer other than typically there, the one answer is yes, make more money and do good client work. Like those things, those are answers. However, within that, how you do that, how you structure that, like you said, it could, it could work either way. And so I love that you talk about that. I love how you, you kind of talk about the genesis of that original idea and then how now you guys are in a position where it sounds like you have more, what would you say? Would you say you have more authority? You have more confidence in yourself to put forward your own ideas?

23:23You're less driven by scarcity. What is it that's allowed you to have that agency? It's definitely confidence and then it is definitely confidence that comes from experience and know-how and all that. But then knowing that, let's say we do two options, it's for their best interest. It's for their best interest because a lot of times they'll come to us because they'll see something cool that's in our style. We kind of have this like horizontal mountain style, but they'll want something different. And then I think it was Frank Gary who said like, I'm confident enough that they don't, If they don't like one idea, I'll come up with another better idea.

24:07You know, I think, yeah. And then here's the other, like, this is a psychological one that's really kind of moved the needle, is kind of is knowing that you're the best option for them. knowing that you've built that experience, that time, that repertoire, that team, that you are the best option for them. So important. And how does that tie into imposter syndrome, do you ever, even though you have the reps in the portfolio, how does the imposter syndrome ever creep in where you're like, oh, yeah, I mean, we have the proof of this, but it's just feeling, I'm not sure we are the best option here.

24:53Does that, does that still afflict you or are you past that? A hundred percent, a hundred percent, because we're building a house right now and I'm going to look over the foundation plan because they're going to do the foundations. And I still don't know everything about the foundations and all that. Even my own project that we're building, even the nuances of, of how it goes, I still don't know. And I have this feeling literally today, like I'm a shitty builder, like I'm a shitty builder. But then like when you said that, it's funny because yesterday a client forwarded me an email from a builder and they, the builder said, this is a small ADU, small ADU in the backyard.

25:35And he wasn't mean about it, the builder. And he was just talking to the client and he said, I don't know why they're putting roof trusses on there. You'd need a crane to put those up. Let's just stick frame it and have them redesign it. And I've seen houses go up without a crane with roof trusses. Like you can literally push them up there and then push roof trusses up there one at a time. It's not a big deal. And I told that client professionally, like, that's completely wrong. And that's a yellow flag that he's saying that to you. And then the other one too, I had another contractor tell the client that our plans were unbuildable because we were building next to two structures just like the whole city of New York is, which isn't right.

26:23And the client goes, these plans are crap. You can't build that. And then the client told me that. And I go, hey, Ron, you know, I'm a builder. Like, I'll just build it for you. And we did, you know, it was fine. So it swings from like, I'm telling seasoned contractors, essentially that they're stupid and don't know what they're doing. But then the next day I'm like, oh, I'm stupid. I have no idea what I'm doing. I know. Well, it's probably good. It's good to have that conversation. It's good to let our listeners know that if they have that voice, which I'm sure I haven't met someone who doesn't have it, that it's normal and that high performers, they don't become victimized by that voice.

27:04yeah yeah and anyways to add on to that if you take any politician any big business person um let's just go with those two who are making massive decisions be and the reason why i say those two is because i think people can come at an example of like oh they've made way worse decisions that have affected way more people than I have. Like, I think people need to understand that, you know, because I think we take things so personally and that's fine, but it's like, oh, my decision just affected this. These people are effing up everything and they're totally fine with it. You know what I mean? Like they're messing up more than you and they are totally fine with it.

27:52So I'm not saying that you should be totally fine with it. It's just, you should give yourself a little bit of a break. Yeah. Sometimes we're, we're probably are too hard on ourself. Yeah. What else came up as you thought about this idea of some things that you have big one, different things that have evolved. You said making money. That was a huge one. When we were younger, we were doing this house and it went through a planning committee and then the, and we, you know how these things go, they take forever. And then they basically switched it up on me and said, oh, you need to start all over and go through a different guy.

28:27And I, and it was all them. I went through all the meetings, all the steps. I even did like their red lines and they're like, oh, start over and go with another guy. So I told the client that, hey, I'm going to need to do additional services for this. Basically got yelled at and chewed out by a shitty contractor who said you should like, once you agree to a price, that's your word. That's your bond. That's whatever. And in the same breath, in that same meeting, they told me beforehand that they didn't spec for drain tile, which is common in Colorado. Might be common out there. Because the plan said, see the specs, but there were no specs provided.

29:10So now they're upcharging a client. So it's like, yeah well they you know you said you build the house you know drink you should know but it really hit me when i was younger like and you've heard that thing like handshake you know like handshake this is what it is don't raise your prices all that other stuff well in that scenario it's easy to say now like well the scope did change you know and it's not that you want to nickel and dime anyone. But I had three big projects this last year, within the last couple months, one in Longmont, Lakewood, and then Brighton, where like the scope has changed.

29:48It's this big thing where maybe two years ago, I would have just let our company not be that profitable, go through. And all three of them I asked for, one was a medium raise, one was a huge raise, and one was like a low raise. and I got one person was mad at me and, you know, we had to have a kind of man to man about it. One person said, oh, I expected this and then asked me some questions and he goes, okay, how many hours are you expecting? And then, you know, like, why is this? And I said, well, basically we're going to need to have three people on it for four months, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, that makes sense.

30:30And then another person said, yeah, you guys do great work. I understand this. And that's a massive shift. Each three of those projects would have bled, let's just say a staff member, a quarter of their thing for the next four months that would have been unbillable. verse, hey, if the, and I'm not trying to say like change up contracts on people or anything like that. I'm trying to say that sometimes the scope does change. And for example, on one of the biggest ones, I think we said, oh, there'll be two or three different unit types. And this should take two years to go through the city. It's on year four and there's six or eight different unit types.

31:21Like, yeah, it's different. It's different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So earlier on, you would have just let that roll. You would have taken the loss on that. Now you're much more exacting about making sure you charge. What's an extra scope? Making sure you charge for that, understanding that it's not your job to cover the circumstances that are outside your control. Yep. And don't be afraid of it. Don't be afraid of it. Be confident. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Okay. Do you want the third? Well, I have two more. Yeah, let's hear them. Let's go. I don't know. He might not like this one.

32:03I'll brace myself.

32:07we give away work for free now no no no um so this year the last year like i'd have a morning routine and i still have one to some extent like when i get up i go in my closet there's like a red light that i switch on while i'm brushing my teeth and stuff like that it's not the most perfect or anything like that but it's it's it's nothing big now but you know like okay there's breath work there's all these other different there's like okay you could you know kind of set your morning read you know like inner thoughts things like that man this year i was like get up you know obviously turn on the red light and you know get dressed and all that and then get to work and start marketing and start executing contracts and just do it just do it love that it's so my The bottleneck that I identified with our firm was me.

33:04The bottleneck was bringing in work and getting enough work and raising prices and getting enough work so that if we miss more of them, I need to have more that I'm going after to make up for that, which means we'll probably have less work at a higher price. And I wasn't doing that. And then even on like Saturday morning, I carve out a little time to do some of that work because I'm pulled in all these different directions. And if I'm the bottleneck, I'm the bottleneck. And that's the problem. It wasn't that I wasn't doing breathing exercises or like reading affirmations or anything like that.

33:49It was the work that needs to be done is not getting done. You need to go do it. powerful love that yeah yeah i mean mic drop you know yeah uh and then do you want the last one yeah let's pause let's pause on that one for a second because that um that's been been a part of my journey as well so morning routine's always been super important getting in the right state for the day and for the past year what are we we're right now we're 2026 for 2025, I literally ditched my morning routine. Did you really? I completely ditched it. I was like completely no morning routine at all. Slept in, woke up whenever I wanted to, whenever my body said I'm, I'm, I'm well rested.

34:32That's when I got up. Um, and I really let it go, you know, and I felt it was part of my own evolution as a human to go from such a rigid structure to just being more in flow to where now I would say my morning routine, like even now my morning routine is not very super consistent. My wake up time fluctuates based upon how my body feels. I will always get to the gym. I'll always work out because I find that just really gets my body moving so important. Other than that, I'll work in a meditation sometime throughout the day, maybe two. That's it. That's it. Interesting. I get that. I think that's a good one for people to consider.

35:13The one thing I will say about that is what I notice is that a lot of times the quality of the work can be higher when we do have a consistent morning routine. So whereas yes, the work, if it's either getting the work done or just, because a good friend of mine said this, said this to me once, right? Yes, it's important to sharpen the saw, as Stephen R. Covey says, but it's also important to chop the wood. Yeah. And if you're sharpening the saw all day long, every day, and it's getting in the way of chopping the wood, leave it not part of the equation. And that's probably the nuance for the listeners is that.

35:45And then maybe knowing where you are at with a season and stuff like that. So maybe we get a whole bunch of work and we plush up our firm and all that. And you shouldn't drop the ball on marketing because that's another pitfall that happens is because you think you're in the season of abundance and then you drop it and then all of a sudden you get done with those projects and you're kaput. So it's not that you should drop that, but then maybe it's like, okay, we got that worked. Now what's the level you need to maintain? and then you work something back into your morning routine and stuff like that.

36:21You know, for example, like morning routines are great, but not if you're in a, you know, a trench. Exactly. Not if you're in a trench. That red light is going to get you. You can send it from a red light all day long. It's not going to win you any projects. Yeah. Well, it goes over to the idea of this spiritual idea of manifestation, right? Which is like there's more and more there are people talking about what it means to manifest, right? Which is the idea that by having aligned thoughts with our emotions, and here's the key part, with our actions, yes, we can have the universal rearrange itself to show up resources and people and synchronicities in our life.

37:06And I found this to be true. That's eerily true. and what I've also found to be true is that we can't just sit on a meditation cushion and try to like do positive visualizations and affirmations and you know there's a whole crowd of people where they're like man I just need more affirmations I just need more red light therapy and then I'll be successful and I can't count on my fingers the number of like spiritual entrepreneurs who are meditating all day long they're going to the cold plunge they're doing the red light therapy and they are broke and they haven't created a thing I, I, the, the thought that's coming to my head, here's the difference is everything that you said right there with that example.

37:44And we've done it too. I've done it. I know you've, you've done it is the, the red light, the affirmations, that's all about you. That's all about you. Well, well, well, guess, guess what? If you want to make money, if you want, um, let's just leave it at that. If you want to make money, the, the way you truly do that is you help other people, you help other people so switch your thoughts and your affirmations and all of that from spending so much time on yourself to other people and then it happens that's a great that's a great mic drop there yeah all right alex what's the last thing that you have for us here the evolution of you and the firm interior designers are awesome let's let's hear this one man let's i gotta hear this one let's go so this might be counterintuitive so like we we design and we build and first we went you know like we had um construction guys and all that and they're all hardcore they know construction and and all that and that seems like it's the way right well it didn't work out as well and finally when you when you're building a project we split it into the big five and everything else and the big five are foundations framing MEP and there's a little bit more than that like siding windows, right?

38:59But those are the big five. Those are the things I can manage through my crew through subs, right? And the rest is people see it as smaller, but it's probably just as hard and probably just as annoying. It's flooring, finishes, fixtures, paint, all this other stuff. Guess who's really good at that? Interior designers. A lot of them are also girls. It's just to happen the way that the world is, right? The interior design girls rock and they're awesome because if we can, like during design, get them to do that interior design contract and then do it in construction, it's almost a handoff where I can detach another level and they love that.

39:45Let them do that. Let them do that. And it's a lot of work. And it's weird because I think What we would have told people in the past is like construction, you know, let's make the analogy absurd so that it makes sense. Like, yeah, get some dudes to be your construction managers, all that. I'm sure that can work in certain – it does. It does. People do that. Where we have now switched and it's like, no, no, you can do the big five. And your interior design girls can do the rest. And you can make a project. And it's great. And we love it. I find it interesting that you call them interior design girls.

40:22I would call them women, not girls. I can't wait till we get the comments about that one, Al. It's great. Yeah. Hey, I'll throw it back. Don't worry. I've gotten emails. This is back in the day. Obviously we have women and female on our staff now. But back in the day when we did it, I got called out for it. And then I looked at them and they only had females. And I said, why are you calling me out for this? You only have females. And I'm like, that's not the point. I'm like, all right, we aren't trying to. We're just hiring who's the best available.

40:59Send your hate mail to Enoch. Yeah, please. My inbox is open. Now, let's circle back to the idea of interior designers, which I'm really glad you brought this up because this has been something that I've always seen. So I have a really – one of my best friends is an interior designer, right? and he happens to be a man, not a lady. And he is, which granted, you make a good case, like a lot of great interior designers are female for whatever reason. Don't know why it's happened that way. This gentleman is just fantastic, like just amazing. And he will make any space pop. I mean, just like the most sophisticated, beautiful selections of furniture, draperies, lighting, like the whole nine yards.

41:48and as someone who's no longer in the architecture industry when I was practicing an architect I was like why not bring other consultants in why not bring other consultants in who are experts of what they do and just make something great but unfortunately what he said Al he said he said I just haven't been able to make it work with architects he's like working with architects are really really hard this is so interesting and and yes you're right like one of the best exterior interior designers we use is a guy called Damn Good Interiors. It's so, because the other thing that I feel that architects miss out on that really make a project pop is landscape designers.

42:28Oh, that's another one. Agreed. And it's, yep. Okay. I'm going to tell a little story about how we've made it work, but I want your insight and maybe what you've gleaned from him. So we've had even before our most recent couple of interior designers, we had a previous one years ago, right? And we never really got interior design work. And now we do. Now we do get interior design work. And I think that this is part of the problem because we never got interior designers on our project when it was outside for residential. We get it on commercial. Commercial people make sense. Like, this is a restaurant.

43:15This needs to be damn good. This is going to make or break it. You know, it makes sense. but once we hired the you know like have our new people in we we tease interior designers as part of our services and we ask and and you know we sometimes we ask if they want to include it sometimes we we we say like oh hey we have we have these girls you know they're great talk them up and all this other stuff and what's been happening is now like clients have been asking us to put that in in there so we say hey we'll put together like during our talk you know you're walking around with the client or whatever you talk about everything you mention those but we almost say like okay we'll go together and put it together a proposal for you for architectural and structural engineering and they're like well yeah what about an interior designer like i want that as well you know um and now now they they are we are actually our interior designers used to do probably 75 architecture work and only 25 interior design work because our our projects would need it anyways but now they're probably 75 interiors maybe 25 like they're picking up red lines or you know just doing a layout that an architect would do but you know they can do it too it's no big deal um and i think i think it's i think it's mindset i think it's total it's total mindset and and the reason why this is so interesting to me is like should we hire a landscape designer like is that how we get landscape design actually in our projects is we just hire one you know and start yeah what you guys do now do you do the landscapes get done do they get ve'd out what generally happens um they get either they're not required and they don't do anything but just basic you know grass and a couple trees ve'd out um those are the two or or yeah yeah they're either never included or actually three never included ve'd out or the big projects will have them and we'll we'll pay for it you know there's like yeah yeah we did this i think i sent it to you did i send you that that uh glass house one where i jumped in the pool at the end yes that video um they had interior designers they did the whole kitten caboodle it worked out yeah yeah i mean sorry landscape designers they had landscape designers so they did landscape as well yeah i guess at the end of the day it's someone someone gets to sell them on the idea of a full package yeah right because we know that one of the saddest things i'm just over exaggerating it's definitely not one of the saddest things but something that is sad to see is a beautifully designed house where you can tell that they just put in a lawn and like where's the landscape design it didn't happen yeah or but in the same thing on the interiors is like it's a beautiful house and it's um just a green couch and you're like what and they just brought their green couch over and stuck it right in the middle and you're like please stop you know yeah yeah well and i think you know going back to going back to the conversation about interior designers you know and that's why i wanted to really um that's why i questioned you about calling them girls because i'm not sure what meaning you have behind that but when I hear that, it sounds a little diminutive to my ears.

46:49And it may not be coming from you, I can't say. However, I'm glad that conversation came up because I think it does speak to how we all can work better together as professionals, right? Because I know a lot of design, like I know a lot of interior designers, they look down on architects. it goes both ways it goes both ways i know a lot of art i know a lot of architects who speak very disparagingly of interior designers you know they call them interior decorators or especially in the residential needs like when you get into corporate then you have you know you have people who are formally trained and there's you know in a commercial setting there's a lot that goes there's life safety that goes into interior design you You know, fire ratings of finished materials, everything like that, off gassing, that stuff, you know, ecologically sound principles.

47:41Not so sophisticated for residential, but super important. So what do you think the divide is there? I think it comes down to stress because everyone knows the big conflicts that generally happen. And it's architects and contractors making fun of each other. And I've even said that. I've even said that even on this podcast, right? um and i think think about the amount of decisions that you make in a house and design and architecture and and everything like that and not everyone can know everything it's just it's just impossible i can't know you know like in a build the plumbing is going to come up i you know the there's different glues there's different connections i have i have no idea you know

48:31and everyone's just trying to get it done and move on and get paid and how they do that is through making their own system and then they'll say like oh you can't you can't build it like this or you can't do it like like no you've just carved out your way right and now you're doing it the interior designer might be hey in school we learned like you really need to have a cut of light here or cut of light there so I'll suggest that and then the architect will say like well now you're ruining my whatever, right? So I think that like stress and communication are a big problem. And I wouldn't say unlimited money would solve it, you know, because I just don't believe that that's the case.

49:16But I believe a little bit more would solve it in the sense of if you get a bigger budget, it doesn't mean maxing out that budget more, meaning like, oh, instead, you know, we got a bigger budget. So now the rug, instead of it being$5 or$10 a square foot is now going to be$20 a square foot, but you don't lead time to like coordination, communication, talk, leave enough for like, oh, we should have left$2 a square foot for when someone spilt all over, you know and it was just a drywaller and that drywaller ran on us and now someone has to pay for that all of a sudden stress happens and then people are overextending you took that bigger budget and then all of a sudden you just push that budget up to the limit so now people are now on the wire again you know um so i you know i don't have a solution but like i feel like that's where that tension comes from is that everyone's kind of pushed to the end of deliver you know deliverables and then anything that breaks that people start pointing fingers at each other sure and well it's there's there's a great market opportunity there for a more cohesive package being designed and sold now let's talk a little bit here as we as we wrap up your guys experience in the construction because you have done that right where you guys have you're responsible for more?

50:44What's the takeaway on that? Is that something you want to do more of? Is that something that you do it occasionally? We are huge advocates. Architects should be doing way more of it. Should be doing way, way more of it. You get your interior design professionals, the amount of knowledge, even like the small stuff that I said, being able to say confidently, you know, without being mean about it, without miscommunicating. Know that can be done. Yes, we can do that. Advising your client correctly and knowing that those answers are coming from somewhere, a source of truth. It makes what you deliver for the client so much better.

51:31And it makes you so much confident that when you say you're the right person for the client, it's actually true. And that's the difference from before and now. And that's what's the hard part is because we could just say, tell yourself in the morning, I am confident. I am a good architect. I'm the best. I, I, I, I, I. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. That's all about you. Why we say that bigger reach is correct is because then you know, oh, we're doing these decisions right for the client. And then that's what actually moves the needle. That's what actually makes it happen. And that's the difference.

52:11It's not just about saying it in a morning routine. It's about earning it. And that's the best way to earn it. That's the best way to earn it. Think about these really, really high-end people that are really good, either a singer, head of a tech company. They all programmed. They all know all the chords and what a G chord sounds like and all that other stuff. They know that nitty-gritty stuff, and they're at the highest level. So how are you going to know that nitty-gritty stuff? And I don't mean to say that you can't because, of course, we all know great architects that don't build. We all know.

52:54It's true.

52:58But I think that even if you go back to the best architect and I will die on this hill, which is Frank Lloyd Wright, I think he was out more in it than we are now. I think he was out more in it, really. Frank Lloyd Wright. Yeah. What a genius. we were just at the i was at for the first time i got a tour of the salk institute which of course is not frank lloyd right work but i was just uh louis khan man his yep that that era yeah those guys did some really cool stuff well alex any parting words for us we've covered a lot today anything you want to leave with us today uh keep listening to this podcast that's what i'll say keep listening to this podcast yeah head on over to inside the firm i love that you guys talk about things that are situational that our listeners could tune into and probably identify a lot with to see how you guys handle it.

53:51So, you know, you guys are an asset to the industry. So glad that you have literally opened the curtain to inside the firm. Absolutely. Good talking to you. Yeah, it takes courage to do that. Thank you. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed the interview that I did with Alex Gore. It was good having him back on the show. and as always I want to leave you today with a smart practice tool tip to help fuel your success in your practice because here's the thing with the generation of successful firm owners looking to transition their firm to younger team members oftentimes these transitions can get sabotaged because no one planned for the real problems ego yes we all have it vision drift and business blind spots.

54:37That's why we here at Business of Architecture have prepared the Design Firm Transition Ready Guide, which shows you how to prep your firm for a smooth, profitable exit, whether it's in six months or 20 years. So even if you're still 10 years away from your potential exit, I highly recommend you download this guide. There's a special checklist in there that goes over all the things that you want to consider as you look to set your firm up for transition or just for success. Right now in the moment, this guide is for you if you're a firm owner or potentially an employee who's looking at taking over a firm.

55:09You can download this free guide by going to businessofarchitecture.com forward slash transition dash ready. That's the webpage. Now, as always, thank you to all of you who left a review for this amazing podcast that we love so much. We want to thank you because that helps other people find this information. and we truly believe that a rising tide raises all boats. I'd love to read your name out here and acknowledge you on the show. To do that, leave us a review by opening your podcast app on the iPhone. So sorry, Android users. Search for Business of Architecture and after clicking on the show, scroll all the way to the bottom to leave a review.

55:49Now, today's episode of the Business of Architecture show, this episode is sponsored by Smart Practice, which is our proprietary step-by-step solution to help you as a firm owner run a practice that gives you more freedom, fulfillment, and financial reward. Because here's the thing, you can scroll free tips forever. You can look at all the YouTube videos, but results don't come from theory. They come from actual applied, customized advice to your situation. And that's why we've assembled a team of experts here, small business experts here at Business of Architecture to help you really build a firm of your dreams.

56:23So if you're ready to quit being a glorified administrator and get back to architecture again, simply go to this website, smartpracticemethod.com. You'll enter in your email address and you'll get access to a special training that I provided about the proven, simple, and easy to implement smart practice method. Now, as a reminder, I'm Unix Sears and I want to thank you for joining me today and remind you that the views expressed on the show by our guest do not represent those of the host and we make no representation, promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond, or commitment except to help you do your best work and be handsomely paid for it.

56:58I'll see you next time. Carpe diem.