The Thursday Show: Banana Republic quits furniture, Havenly makes a buy. Plus: The state of play in home retail

24:45Yes? Well, we don't know the specifics of the deal. And one question I sort of have around this whole thing that we don't have an answer for is whether images or any images in any context are swept up in part of the deal. I think it's safe to assume that text is. So, for example, all of my wonderful articles, as I mentioned, are now part pieces. They're welcome to those 6 ,000 word pieces. but I don't know about designer photographs. I suspect probably not because those are covered under different copyright arrangements, but you know it's possible that a deal like that will be coming. And certainly like if you've ever been interviewed by house beautiful or elder core, that content is now, you know, part of, part of chat GPT.

25:24You know, how, certainly how you feel about it depends on who you are and where you sit, sit in this, you know, I, as we, you mentioned the writer's guild of America East, you know, swiftly criticized this deal. I think in general, writers are scared that AI is coming for their jobs. People who like these products and see them as just being useful tools are probably just happy that they have better data. I know a lot of designers use ChatGPT. I was just talking with John Foley, the founder of Ernesta, the direct-to-consumer rug company, and he was saying he built a whole rug industry GPT that he talks with all the time.

25:55So they are useful tools. It's better for them to have good data, but there are a lot of ethical and legal questions kind of swirling around deals like this. we're joking a little bit about this, but I do think from a writer's perspective, this is very real. And I'm sorry, Fred, because I hate to think of this impacting you directly, but I fear. I mean, my stock and trade is inefficiency and too many words. These robots are too efficient. I mean, I don't know who cares about writers to talk about designers. I mean, I do think that like, look, like, again, we've said this, but I do think that like designers should know that so many of these AI engines have scooped up like huge chunks of Pinterest.

26:34It is likely that one of your images is in these engines. And there's something, of course, there's something really, it's difficult because like, it seems unfair and potentially illegal, but any one person has so little recourse to actually like who, which designer is going to sue open AI to like, you know, and you know, some people have like the New York times is suing them. And I noticed the comedian, Sarah Silverman has a lawsuit around it. You know, if those lawsuits win, then yeah, maybe there will be an opportunity for a designer or photographer, maybe more to the point to jump in and sue these companies.

27:05But it is this weird world where we're living in, where these miraculous tools can do these incredible things. But the way that they built the technology is at the very least unfair, if not illegal. And I don't know how designers feel about it. Maybe they just like the AI and don't see it as harmful. Depending on the day, I can feel one way or the other. Which is just how I feel. Depending on the day, I think this is so fantastic. And then other days, I feel like, as you described earlier, basically these deals are sort of closing the barn door after all the cows have been let out. Right? They've already scooped it up.

27:42They just need some new stuff too. So now it's Mother May I, where before it was, I've already got all your stuff, right? So I don't know. So all joking aside, if you think private equity is going to take away jobs, there's no way to spin the yarn that AI doesn't disrupt a lot of jobs in a lot of areas. And that's, I think, the most important thing to always sort of keep in mind. And I get it that you talk to all the economists and they will tell you new jobs will be created. Don't you worry. But as we know from history, often it takes quite a while for those new jobs to be created. Yeah. And to tie it briefly back to Havenly, I mean, I do think that, you know, you know, Havenly uses AI.

28:18and I think they're probably going to use more of it. And I think other people will use AI to do design work. And I don't think it's going to replace like a great full service designer who's really empathetic and can make a project run smoothly. But if it comes down to like a simple design scheme that's done over the internet, yeah, I think AI is coming for that. I've said that before, I'll say it again. And I think that's just where we're going. No, I agree. And I think that's such an important point. And I think for the great designers out there who have the real human skills, I think that that's what people need to lean into more and more.

28:52Okay, up next, Fred, finally, we're going to talk about fall decor. Because you know what? Autumn is here, and home retailers are rolling out their decorative gourds. Last week in her Substack newsletter, Schmata, design journalist Leonora Epstein wrote a sardonic and frankly hilarious takedown of the fall decor phenomenon. using language I can't use here on the show, Fred, but it was nonetheless a highly amusing and entertaining piece. And I think she's spoken a little bit of fun at some retailers who frankly welcome this business and have turned it into quite an industry, yes? Yes, the entire purpose of having this in there is to try and get you to say the title of the article, which does include a curse word.

29:37This is a PG podcast. This one's for the kids. I'm not falling for it. Well, nice one. I just am a big fan of Leonora's writing. And so I always thought this was a really funny article, but it kind of got me sort of down a little bit of a rabbit hole of thinking about like, you know, fall decor and whether that's purely an invention of retailers and magazines or whether people really decorate for Halloween in the fall. And I was looking back at an article that Warren actually wrote for us a year ago or a couple of years ago. And he was talking about how Halloween has become, I guess it's$10 billion business for retailers.

30:09Think about it. How many giant skeletons does America need? But it really is an enormous driver of business. And it kind of gets at this sort of like perennial problem in the home industry, which is that people really need us, but they only need us every seven years. And so anything you can do to remind people of, hey, we exist. Here's a pumpkin. Come into the store is a welcome opportunity for these companies. No, absolutely. And I think, listen, retail needs whatever is going to drive revenue right now. So I think they welcome the change of seasons. And if you live in suburbia, as I do now, Fred, the answer to how many blow up skeletons is enough.

30:52It turns out there is just an endless hunger for Halloween decorations because it's pretty wild around my town and Halloween is still a few weeks away. But also, it's not just the candy and the decorations, but just everything that people can associate, right? The retailers want you to be buying sweaters and pumpkin spice lattes and everything that represents fall. They want to lean into this in a big way. But it's not just that's the thing. Like, that's the thing that Leonora pointed out. it's not just like target it's like a cena calderon had a thing on ice swoon about which was really artfully curated and really nice yes a little bit of a higher price point than a you know decorative gourd but it was it is really do you think there's like an opportunity in this for designers because you know the sort of decorating for christmas thing i think is real and i do think that some designers have you know made that part of their business or turn that into a full you know a full uh client out of a christmas decorating job or a holiday decorating job i should say really is is halloween decorating the way in or do people decorate for fall what do you think is that real or is that a gimmick well i do think i mean i do think a lot of designers come and help you make seasonal transitions and so i i do think that you can you can call it decorating for for halloween but really i do think there is a big oh we're going to take the slip covers off or we're going to we're going to change some of the decor around now that the fall is coming warm things up get some throws in there.

32:20You know, I think it's a great time for throws. I think it's a great time for all of those accessories that somehow convey warmth and coziness. And so I do think that a lot of designers do get engaged in that. And truthfully, I always think it's a great way for them to come back and just revisit some people that they might not have been in touch with for a while. So I get it from that perspective. No, I think it's valid. I think any reason to, you know, get back in touch with your clients. I don't care if it's a sham. Use it as an opportunity to reach out and hey, you know, maybe a little 16-foot skeleton would really freshen up the front lawn.

32:59Well, there is an opportunity there to be sure. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a breakdown of sustainable flooring options and our designer's guide to high point market. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

33:20We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Isla Porter. Making space for more isn't always about square footage, ceiling height, or physical constraints. Rather, it's about opening up the possibilities of what designers can accomplish when their schedule allows for more creativity and innovation. Isla Porter's collection of bespoke cabinetry and AI-powered technology is here to improve your kitchen design process. Isla Porter takes care of the technical details and craftsmanship, from providing elevations and 3D renderings to offering a wide array of door styles and finishes, all made with the highest quality materials, giving you more time and variety to create stunning spaces for your clients.

34:08See how Isla Porter is designing differently. Follow along on Instagram at TheIslaPorter. That's at T-H-E-I-S-L-A-P-O-R-T-E-R We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Lalloy, who recently introduced Love Lalloy, a commitment to doing good for their community, industry, and environment. Through this initiative, Lalloy has recently worked in India to promote female education, Donate a thousand tree saplings and provide free eye exams and glasses to hundreds of craftspeople. Learn more at laloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com. And follow them on Instagram at laloyrugs.

35:02So Warren, I'm eager to discuss a recent article that you wrote for us about whether or not it is time to start getting optimistic about the home furnishings industry. But before we dive into a wide-ranging conversation with you, I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell listeners a bit about your own history and how you came to cover this industry. We often bring you in to have expert conversations about what's going on at High Point and the industry, but many people may not realize the breadth and depth of the career that you've had. And I'm curious how that career began for you. Well, I was born in a piece of furniture.

35:49So I think, you know, this was at a very early age and it's been that way ever since. initially i was not focused specifically on the home business in fact the first publication i wrote for was about the baby business so it was uh strollers and car seats and things like that okay and then i went to work for a publication that was uh called hfd at the time which at one points stood for home furnishings daily and wrote about appliances and eventually became the furniture editor. My first High Point market was 1978. Back then, very, very different. You stayed in people's houses and you got, as a lifelong New Yorker, you got a real taste of what the rest of America was actually like.

36:47So that was an eye opener. And after HFD, I went to work for a publication called Home Textiles Today that is still around. And I was there for a number of years. So I've bounced around, but a few other home publications, back to the textile industry, gift industry, home decor. So this is really what I've done. And probably for the last six or seven years, I've been a contributing editor to Business of Home. So I think that's really allowed this long-range view that I think is probably what I can bring to the conversation that is most valuable. Well, and it's exactly that long range view and the history that you've seen that I wanted to talk with you about today, because there's a feeling that perhaps we're coming to the end of one cycle and perhaps the beginning of a new cycle.

37:49But I wonder when you think back to some of the other eras that you've covered, do you see similarities? Can you draw comparisons? Was this time not nearly as bad as it was in the time of 9-11, for example, which I know had a terrible impact on the home industry? Or maybe even further back, there were some more challenging times. Give me a sense. So I think there were ups and downs in the 80s and 90s and sometimes were stronger than others, but they just tended not to be as long lasting. I think the most valid comparison would be the 2008-2009 housing meltdown, the Great Recession, if you want to call it that.

38:36That was pretty prolonged, certainly a couple of years, and pretty devastating for the home furnishings industry. But the factors that caused it were very different than what we're seeing now. So 2008, 2009, when the housing bubble burst, people that had$400 ,000 houses and had mortgages and second mortgages up the wazoo that they weren't worried about, they woke up one morning and they owed a lot of money that they didn't have. and their house was suddenly worth$235 ,000. And so that really impacted the way people spent on everything, not the least of which was home furnishings. This time around, the housing market is still relatively strong in terms of the value of houses.

39:30Equity levels keep going up. People are able to borrow against their houses. And if you're in a house right now, and you've got a 3 % mortgage that you got four years ago, you're in pretty good shape. So very different factors. The big difference, obviously, this time is that there's a paralysis in the housing market. So people that would normally put their house up for sale, and when you put your house up for sale, you tend to fix it up and spend some money to make it look pretty. And everything from new kitchens and bathrooms to a paint job to some new furniture, whatever it is, that's not happening because people are not selling their houses because they don't want to lose those cheapo mortgages.

40:19On the same token, people aren't buying houses because if you don't have a mortgage, you don't really want to take out a 7 % mortgage, even a 6 % one. And the resulting spending that comes from that, which is, I got a new house. I'm going to go buy a new washer dryer. I'm going to buy a new sofa for the living room. So that's not happening. So you've got very different factors, but the end result is that it's a very similar conclusion to what we saw in eight and nine. And the home furnishings guys are paying the price. I'd say the one other thing, which similar to an extent was that the wild surge of spending during the pandemic when people were stuck home and they were spending a lot of money on their homes kind of borrowed purchasing against the future.

41:17So if you bought a sofa in 2020 or 2021, your chances are you're not going to go buy one again next Tuesday. So you had a lot of purchases that were pushed, brought forward And so that's also contributed to the problem we've got. We talked to so many business leaders who have suggested a multi-year pull forward in business. When we spoke to Alex Bernhardt, he said maybe we pulled eight years worth of business forward, right? Which is frightening, but easy to imagine. I mean, I wonder with the people that you speak to and you speak to so many people, where do they suggest we are in that cycle, in feeling as though many people suggested we were going to lose 23 and maybe 24 as far as business, that it was going to be flat to down if we were lucky because we pulled so much business forward.

42:14Have we worked through it or do we still have years to go? When I talk to people now, first off, on a short-term basis, they're starting to see a few rumblings. I talked to an independent store, and the owner said, last week, we had three people come in and ask us about buying furniture. And she was ecstatic. She said, that sounds like nothing, but that's three more people than they had seen for months beforehand. So you're starting to see these little rumblings of activity. The educated people I talk to now seem to think we're looking at second quarter of 25 is when if we've bottomed out and if things aren't getting worse, we may start to see some real shoots come out in that second quarter of 25.

43:17In talking a little bit more deeply about the difficulties that the industry has faced in this post-COVID era, there was a sense that the retail landscape has changed dramatically. We've talked a lot, Fred and I, on the Thursday show, we've talked about all of these family retailers that have been closing and the announcement recently that Sam Levitt's and you'll love it at Levitt's is going away. And for people that don't remember what a big chain that once was, I remember when they bought Siemens and they bought Huffman Coos, which used to be another big retailer. So, I mean, that announcement just hit my childhood memories very hard when I heard that news.

44:09But it was just one of so many, Warren, family retail businesses that have announced, again, for various reasons, the next generation didn't want to take over or the land underneath some of the stores was more valuable than the stores themselves. I get it. There were a lot of reasons. It just seems as if we've seen a meaningful shift in the retail landscape in this cycle. What's your sense of that? Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. You're seeing big national chains and everything from them down to local independents all getting hit and getting hit bad. You know, on the big national chains like a Big Lots or an LL Flooring going back two years to Tuesday morning, even Bed Bath & Beyond, which had its own set of problems.

45:03These were all big companies that at one point were pretty well financed and pretty stable. And they're all crashing and burning. And some may come out and some may not. But those big public companies, that's a good indicator of what's going on. When you look at the financials of William Sonoma or R-House or R-H, they're not pretty. They're all having a tough time. Aldi is about to become the third largest supermarket grocery chain in the number of stores. And they are continuing to open stores. and their stores continue to do well. And so they're taking market share from other guys. And so you've just got to put this in the context of, yeah, a lot of stores are closing, but they're stores that shouldn't have opened in the first place.

46:03And other people are coming along to take that business. You're just seeing this fundamental shift in the way America shops And they don't need all these stores. They don't need a CVS on every corner within a mile of each other. And they're not going out to the highway to go to that big lot store so much anymore. Well, it's interesting, Warren, because you're right that so many of these stores are going away. And what's been so perplexing to me watching all of these big retail chains closing is what is going to be the distribution for all of these high point companies and all of these big American furniture makers?

46:50Where are they going to be showing and selling their stuff? It is a problem. Now, this is a product that's not going away. People are going to keep buying furniture. It's not going to be replaced by AI. That's a plus. Now, where they buy it is the issue, as you say. And if I had the answer, I wouldn't tell you, but I would sell it to the highest bidder. But I just think there's some guy out there who's got a new model that is going to work. And I don't know what that is. But every time we've sort of had these crash and burn eras, somebody else has come along. When the department stores were starting to max out, the discount guys came in.

47:43And when both of them got to a certain point, you saw the specialty chains come in. And so there's going to be some new way to buy these products. I'm not sure what it is. I wonder, you go to so many trade shows and see a broad spectrum. You mentioned early on in your career, you were working for Home Textiles and you covered that industry. I'm wondering, as you go around to shows these days, what people are talking about and are they, as you were suggesting earlier, are some of them feeling like things are getting a little bit better? Are there green shoots? Is there less to complain about? Or do they still just like to complain anyway?

48:28They especially like to complain to me. Well, I figured you're probably the one that likes to really complain. Yes, and I would complain to them, but they don't want to hear about it. So the furniture business is still terrible. And I don't know anybody who's having much luck in furniture. If you're selling better upstairs stuff, you're doing a little better or maybe not as worse. If you're in the promotional furniture business, you're really having a tough time. So that's the furniture segment. And I don't think anybody is doing great there. And as you said, even if some of these guys are moving their business to sell more to designers, you're selling one house at a time.

49:15You're not selling a store at a time. So that's a big difference. The other component of the home furnishings industry, which is broadly anything that's not furniture, but let's talk home textiles, housewares, home decor, tabletop. They didn't bottom out as deeply as furniture did. And they've had some sparks of life from time to time. And a lot of that is dependent on who your customer is. So if you're a big Walmart supplier, you're a big Costco supplier, you're doing pretty good. Those stores are doing well. If you're a TJX supplier, if you can work on their margins, you're doing okay. Hey, you know, I always say for a vendor these days, it's as important to pick your customers as it is to pick your products.

50:09Along those lines, Warren, and I'm curious to hear your perspective. So this past weekend, there was a big article in the Wall Street Journal about a lot of people buying their bedding at Costco and the Kirkland brand is so popular. And a couple of big industry people have speculated with me recently about how much home-related business is going on at Costco and Walmart, and that actually those two companies have gotten pretty good at bringing in some pretty decent-looking product. There's an awful lot of ivory boucle on offer in both places I've seen. And really, you're walking into Costco for, I don't know, your big salads and steaks and some other things.

50:57And maybe you're also walking out. It sounds like you're walking out with 600 thread count sheets and maybe some furniture too. Do you think that that is, A, do you think that that is really becoming a big source of furniture sales that is just not on our radar as much? And do you think that's part of the competition that some of these big retailers have faced is those two big stores? Yes and yes. Okay. Guys like Costco and Walmart are absolutely getting market share. And it's at the expense of independents, the expense of furniture stores. Walmart, in my opinion, is the most improved retailer of the last five years.

51:36They have just done a great job of getting their act together. Stores look better. The merchandise looks better. And Walmart's doing a great job. Costco, you know, I'm not sure a lot of people know that Costco is the second biggest retailer in America right now. And yeah, sure, a ton of that is grocery and 55-gallon drums of mayonnaise. But they sell a lot of home furnishings. I know the vendors who supply their, you mentioned the 600 thread count sheets and the towels. That's a huge business. Yeah. They want it. And they want the good stuff. You know, there's a reason why Costco is the number one seller of wine in the country.

52:22For anybody who doubts the Costco demographic, go look at that parking lot. There's a whole lot more BMWs and Range Rovers than there are beat up old Hyundais. So that's who's going in there. And like I said, they're selling premium furniture. They're selling premium textiles. The other guy that I would suggest people put on their radar, you know, everybody knows about HomeGoods, which is kind of light on furniture. They have some occasional furniture, but not so much. and that's owned by TJX. And TJX started a sister brand called HomeSense probably 10 years ago. And they're up to, I don't know, a hundred stores, maybe 200 stores.

53:08They're talking about ramping up the new store cycle on that. And those stores are significantly more furniture-centric and less housewares and less pads and pillows. So when you talk about who's getting market share, absolutely Costco, absolutely Walmart, home goods in non-furniture categories, but home sense, I think people, first of all, if you haven't been in one, you need to go see one to understand it. They're a player. And so are a lot of the big high point companies going to be supplying them? or what's HomeSense going to be filled with? Yeah, it is definitely going to be the mainstream high point guys that are going to be there.

53:54Right now, they are not big enough to do a lot of direct importing themselves, which TJ on the home side tends to work through suppliers. So they'll keep buying from individual suppliers. But yes, if I were a furniture producer, I would have HomeSense on speed dial because a great place to sell. And again, it's not just leftovers and rummage sales. This is the real stuff. Okay, interesting. Well, we've all got to get to a home sense. It sounds like, speaking of high point companies and speaking of high point, I felt as though at the last high point market, you and I talked about how everybody was trying to put on a good face and oh, right?

54:36And things are fine. But really, we got the sense of people feeling a little bit reserved. And I wonder if you've gotten any sense of how they're feeling going into October's market. It's particularly challenging. I know there is a big election coming up and people are very distracted by that, to be sure. But also, we did just get the half point rate cut that the entire industry said they were waiting for. Do you have any sense of how some of the high point companies are feeling? I think it will be not as bad as the last time. Okay. And not nearly as good as the next time. Okay. You know, I kind of use the mimosa and tote bag barometer to see where we are.

55:24And the last market, I saw a few more mimosas and a few more tote bags, and I would expect to see some more this time. But going back to what we talked about before, you've got stores that just aren't selling furniture. Yeah. And so the idea of coming to market to buy more furniture is crazy. And so, again, I talked to an independent that said, I'm not going. There's no point in my going. Really? Yeah. So, and isolated, you hate to draw conclusions based on one guy. But, you know, I think if you've got a big operation, you have to go to High Point just to see what's going on. Right. But you don't have to buy.

56:07So it sounds as though you feel like better than last market, but not as good as markets we're going to see in 2025. If we could just hang on, we can survive and thrive in 2025. I wonder in the column that I referenced earlier that you wrote about, is it time to start getting optimistic about the home furnishings industry? You suggested that maybe, just maybe, things at least don't feel like they're getting worse at the moment, right? Yeah, I think we have hit bottom. Even if there's not a genuine need to be optimistic, we can be less pessimistic, I think, and say, okay, realistically, we see things getting better.

56:57and for some people it's first quarter for some people it's second quarter but at least there's realistic time frames where there really haven't been for at least two years there was a there was a suggestion recently when rh came out with their numbers and the the stock had a big jump the next day right and and and and held on to much of those gains really hasn't given a lot of that back there There was a suggestion at the time from several analysts that perhaps the jump was an indication that this was the last bad quarter, that maybe that's the bottom and you've got to hurry in and buy because it's never going to be lower again and we're on our way up.

57:45I wonder the smart people that you talk to, what do you think they're watching? What do you think they're looking at? So Wall Street investors are always about what's going to happen, not what has happened. RH, the actual numbers were not great this past quarter, but they said, we think things are getting better. And that's enough for us. So people look at RH, even though they're an outlier because their business model is so different than everybody else's. But they're a pretty good leading indicator of what's going on. So to me, they're somebody that you watch. I watch Williams-Sonoma. I think they're one of the best-run companies.

58:31They're a mature company that isn't getting their business from store openings like Our House, which a lot of their growth is coming from new stores. Sonoma's not opening new stores. And they're just a solid company. So I always watch what they're doing. The other guys I watch are Home Depot and Lowe's. The home remodeling business, depending on how you do the math, is six to 12 months ahead of the home furnishings industry in spending. That's kind of what I've discovered over the years. So when people are feeling better about investing in their homes, they're getting new kitchens first that are putting new flooring in or they're getting windows.

59:23But once they do that, then they start to look at furniture and floor coverings and then down the food chain to home decor things. So I think they're a great leading indicator. Again, they held on longer than the furniture guys, and I think they're going to come back faster. But it sounds like we've got to keep an eye on HomeSense, Costco, and also look for increasing signs of green shoots. But really, you think we're going to have to sit tight until 25, it sounds like. Yes? Yeah, yeah. I don't think you can mark April 11th on 25 on your calendar, but I think in hindsight, we're going to see that it was second quarter where there was some realistic improvement.

1:00:18And again, you may not see that until those numbers come out over the summer from the public guys. But I just don't see fourth quarter, what's left of it of 24 and going into early 25 of being appreciably different from where we are now. Yeah. And the last quarter of the year, never a strong quarter for the home industry in general. Nope. Anyway. Right. So not the time for a big turnaround. So stay tuned for the summer of 2025. We'll definitely have you back then to find out where we are. But in the meantime, thank you so much for making the time to speak with me. Okay. Thanks.

1:01:02And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, We'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred? Cast your mind back a few months ago, Dennis, when I wrote for Business of Home an article titled, Is Design Substack Having a Moment? If you may recall, I profiled several design substackers. And lo and behold, a month or so later, here comes Financial Times coming along with their own story about design substackers. I know, bite man, yeah. Exactly. Just taking my idea and bringing it to a larger... No, in all seriousness, congratulations to the people in that article.

1:01:34I do think Financial Times is accurately pointing out there is a lot of movement in design substack. And this week I saw that the fashion substack are very popular. Laura Riley has a substack. I've never said this out loud. I think it's just magazine, but it's spelled M-A-G-A-S-I-N. So if it's magazine or magazine, then I apologize. But anyway, Laura Riley, a very popular fashion substacker, is starting like a little home newsletter. She's going to start writing about home because she is decorating her own home. So I do think there's a lot of movement in design sub stack. If she's getting into it, other people will too.

1:02:08So getting all the getting is good. Absolutely. And the FT could have quoted you or something. I mean, there could have been a little acknowledgement there. Come on, guys. Throw me a bone. I invented it. All right. Dennis, what caught your eye? Well, I am heading to Dallas to visit the George Cameron Nash showroom for a big party called Global Entry. And I get a lot of notes from listeners who say, hey, you're always bashing design centers and talking about the Coen brothers. And why don't you talk about some of the other design centers in America that we actually really like? And one of them is apparently the Dallas Design Center, a design center I haven't visited in many years.

1:02:45And so I am excited to have an excuse to return. So by the time listeners are hearing this show, I will be in Dallas. So hopefully I will bump into some people who listen to the show while I'm there. Dennis does Dallas. I love it. That's what I'm calling this whole trip. Absolutely. You got it. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda.

1:03:24I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.