The Thursday Show: Inside Chairish's $85 million deal. Plus: Is ChatGPT getting good at design?

25:19It's something for the design industry to think about. I think that's. To think about, to be mindful of. Yes, there you go. That's a more positive spin. Listen, AI is ultimately coming for all of us. Let's not pretend, but sure. But for now, just keep an eye on it, all right? We're going to move on now, Fred, to talk about HGTV. The popular home renovation network appears to be on a cancellation spree, axing a total of seven shows in recent weeks. Fred, last week you explored what this says about the state of the design media. And what did you find? I found that it's not good. The state of design media is not good.

25:53No, not to be glib, but yeah, it was kind of crazy because we've been talking about HGTV a little bit more than usual recently and going like, how are things going over there? I sort of feel like we, you know, have found, I mean, over the past month, it canceled seven shows and, you know, networks cancel shows, but seven in a row is a lot. And it's almost turned into this like media moment, like, you know, the stars are coming out and having to issue statements about how we still believe in HGTV. It really has turned into kind of like a publicity storm. I don't know. Have you been following it?

26:26It's forced me to read People Magazine, Fred, which writes about these shows quite a bit. And so I've been spending a lot of time reading about the cancellations through that. But I do think that all of this is coming at a time where there is such a dramatic shift in the landscape. and we should talk about it and break down all of the reasons why this is happening. Yeah. I mean, I think like there's a few things. One, and I know we're supposed to be taking a break from tariffs this week, but like tariffs weirdly kind of play into this. It's strange, but like it's not just tariffs, but like inflation overall on construction projects actually do kind of matter because like, you know, as we all know, construction and building and renovation has gotten so much more expensive.

27:12At the same time, real estate shows like we're going to flip this house have stayed more or less the same cost. And so that's why HGTV is sort of like pivoted away from renovation design towards real estate, or at least that's part of it. And that's maybe the reason why they're canceling a lot of these shows, which are largely renovation shows. So that's one thing. But kind of the other bigger story behind that is like, why do they even need to save money in the first place? And it's because, you know, it's kind of staggering when you look at these numbers. So fewer people are watching HGTV than they were even 10 years ago.

27:43Like, you know, from 2017 to this year or last year, I guess, they've lost like half of their audience. I was blown away by that. Well, and again, we've talked about this cord cutting phenomenon for years and the rise of Netflix and the rise of all of these streaming services and how many people got rid of their cable package. And yes, naturally, it leads to so many less people watching HGTV and watching all of these shows. And then there's also been this huge consolidation in the industry, which we should talk about. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, this gets into the weeds on some corporate wheelings and dealings, but HETV's parent company or used to parent company used to be called Warner Brothers Discovery, which was a merger of Warner Brothers, the studio and Discovery, all the cable channels.

28:33And the thought at the time was to put them together and really win at streaming, you know, but that kind of didn't really happen. And recently, those two companies split apart. And on one side, you have Warner Brothers. On the other side, you have Discovery, which Discovery is a bunch of cable channels and a few other assets. And HGTV is in that bucket. And when they split the companies apart, they gave all of this considerable amount of debt. And they said, we're going to put it all on Discovery. And so the CEO of Discovery now is this famous cost-cutting guy who is tasked with getting rid of this debt and trying to manage these cable channels, which are shedding their audiences.

29:08is month to month. And even more worryingly, it's like HGTV doesn't have a lot of young viewers. I forget the numbers exactly, but it's like there certainly is not a new generation discovering the channel the way that there was 10 or 15 years ago. And so that puts it in a really tight spot. And that's, I think, why you're seeing these cuts. I agree. And so everyone is consuming programming like this in such a different way. They're off of cable and they're online, consuming it in their, whether they're watching TikTok videos, whether they're on YouTube, whether they're finding it in other ways.

29:45And that's what the whole television industry has been grappling with for years. And you're seeing it happen so much more rapidly now, because as you say, these shows were very expensive. I mean, imagine$500 ,000 to produce an episode of one of these home reno shows. And you have to wonder too, how much interest has there been in these shows in the last few years when we're in the midst of a housing crisis and a housing affordability crisis and the home furnishings industry has been struggling so much? How many people are demanding more programming around fixing up your house? So that's also been a factor.

30:28So, I mean, it really makes you wonder whether these kinds of programs will even be around in the next decade or what that will look like. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, they've been around for like since the 90s, really. And so it's tempting to think like this is going to happen forever. Like, of course, there will be renovation shows forever. But it's really it's been a relatively short lived phenomenon. And it's possible that they're just, you know, this genre that we've all grown so accustomed to just won't won't exist in 10 or 15 years. Like that's possible. And, you know, I talked to a few people for the story and most of them were like, yeah, HGTV is going to exist in some format for the next 30 years.

31:03You know, I don't know, you know, if it does, I don't think it'll look anything like it does now because so, you know, the cable numbers are only going to go down from here and it's going to have to reinvent itself almost like, I don't know, I could see a version of HGTV where it's almost like a talent agency where it like, you know, connects with the star and then plugs them into, okay, we'll put your show on YouTube and then we'll get you on TikTok. And, you know, but it being a cable channel, I think the days are not shortly numbered, but they are numbered. And I guess like what that speaks to for me is like, well, what does this mean for designers?

31:34And, you know, I know designers have a love-hate relationship with HGTV, but it has kind of been a pathway to help people build careers, you know, or build a certain kind of career. And I think that like, you know, the reality now is like there is no paycheck or celebrity to be gained through this medium for much longer. I think at this point, you really have to be getting the word out yourself. I think most people already knew that, but this really drives the point home. It's all about TikTok. It's about YouTube. It's about Instagram Reels. Start there for me. It's interesting that this comes at a time of some HGTV nostalgia and people missing those old shows and they're popping up on social media feeds with a, oh, remember these crazy shows kind of thing.

32:16But I think that speaks to even more of the fact that they seem outdated and just a thing of the past and all of the new ways of consuming content have just taken over and I think will continue to. So we'll keep watching it, but on HGTV, probably not for too much longer. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a roundup of the latest new hires and how a community college is training the next generation of upholsterers. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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33:34And we're back. I'm joined now by the founders of Cherish, Ana and Greg Brockway, who have some big news to share. Ana, Greg, so nice to have you back. Thanks for having us. It's nice to see you again, Dennis. Do you know it's been six years since you were in the business of home offices when we last had you on the show? 2019. Can you believe that? Oh, my gosh. I remember that day. It was exciting. Thanks for having us again. It's kind of becoming a six-year anniversary. Well, I don't know how we waited this long to have a conversation with you both. Before we jump into the big news of the day, I want to just give a quick explainer about Cherish for those that might not be familiar with the whole online marketplace that the two of you have built over the last this many years.

34:27What is it, 12 years now? Cherish, yeah. Oh, it's been quite a journey. Yes. So Cherish came out of a personal experience. Ana and I, we moved four times in three years. We always had things that we couldn't quite fit in the new home. And we were always looking for things that were hard to find. And so we decided that the world needed a better, easier way to buy and sell home furnishings. And here we are. We launched Cherish. Initially, it had a limited number of items, mostly from our most recent move. People liked it. People were buying. People were selling. and it really, it's been a terrific, it was a terrific start and it's continued strong ever since.

35:04Certainly the last 10 years have seen some big challenges, but overall it's been a terrific journey and we're happy with the progress we've made with the team and the community we work with. And also over time, our buying audience has changed. And so we still have tons of just ladies and guys who love to decorate their homes, But increasingly, our business is done with the trade and interior designers. So that's kind of an important part, I think, of our trajectory story. And as Greg was pointing out, so little did you know, there were a whole host of challenges that were going to be thrown at you.

35:40So we were sitting together back in 2019, naively having no idea of what was about to happen to the world. We were feeling so good and optimistic. And then COVID came and created all sorts of craziness for the industry. Tell me a little bit of what that looked like for you and how you experienced that. And then coming out of it, and here we are with today's new challenges with tariffs and a whole host of other issues. But tell us. Our COVID experience was initially terrifying, and then it was remarkably positive. There was a huge silver lining in this global tragedy that was happening where everyone was nesting and refurnishing their home and lots of good things were happening that kept us and our team very busy.

36:29And then, of course, we all lived through the interest rate rising, mortgage rates rising, home sales shutting down. And it changed from a terrific tailwind to a huge headwind, which has been a challenge for us and the whole industry. So I think you alluded to tariffs. So the challenges just keep coming. And I thought we were going to try not to talk about tariffs this week, Dennis. No, I know. I know. We were going to try not to talk about it on the show, but it always creeps in. And of course, I mean, as you say, the housing market challenge. And listen, I mean, I really can't remember a time where we where we faced as many challenges all all at once like this over these many years.

37:08And the and the furniture industry has has just gone through so much. And so I'm wondering if, and we should say, so we're having you on to talk about this great big news. Hey, guess what? Cherish is being acquired by ATG, and we should talk about Auction Technology Group. A lot of listeners probably know them as the live auctioneer site, but they have several other big auction sites as well. And this is big news. So take me through some of the details around this. First, who is ATG? I mean, this is a public company headquartered in London. It's a company that I've known for several years, and they've grown to be a global leader made up of several online marketplaces for curated auctions.

37:55They power many of the most trusted platforms here in the States. We know them best as Live Auctioneers, which is a service that many of our sellers are active users of. So some terrific opportunities there. And in Europe, they're better known as either Lattissimo, which is a Hamburg-based auction marketplace in Europe, or as The Sailroom, which is a business headquartered in London. So it's a brand and a service which is very complimentary to Cherish or has many complimentary brands that our community is probably more familiar with. And the opportunity is what can happen when you put these things together?

38:32How can we make buying and selling easier and better for everyone? And those are the things that got us excited about taking this step and selling the business, basically entrusting our baby to the leadership team at ATG. This is a business our team has put a tremendous amount of energy and love into over the last 10 plus years. And I think we're builders. We like to put things together. And sometimes that means we acquire the pieces that we don't have. And here it's a case where we're selling what we have to create something bigger and better for our team and our community. And I have a lot of confidence that the brands are going to go on to do even more exciting things.

39:12Well, and with that in mind, Greg, tell me a little bit about how conversations got going to make this deal possible and why you thought the timing was right to do this now. So the short answer is we've made a lot of progress. So one of our, we talked about the tailwinds turning into headwinds. And so at that point we said, hey, we're not good at predicting how quickly the industry is going to grow or shrink. Let's just get profitable and make sure that we can comfortably sustain ourselves. And so we shifted our energy towards reaching profitability. And I'm proud that the team has now delivered five consecutive quarters of EBITDA profitability and businesses on a much sounder footing.

39:54But when you cross a milestone like that, when you reach an important goal, you say, okay, how do we go bigger? How do we do more? And so we started a strategic review process and we started talking to people. What are the things that we don't have that we could use or who out there could help us go even get bigger and go faster? And so through that process, we met the team. It's a very talented team at ATG. And again, the opportunities to put the businesses together and deliver more value for our community of buyers and sellers and give more opportunities for the team to grow. And it was a very natural extension of our mission and our goal and made a lot of sense.

40:34And did it feel like, so often there's the question of, so are the founders gonna stick around for a while and help build this out? Or is it an indication that, okay, they're wrapping up their time? I know you've had several startups in the past, Greg, that you've sold successfully. I mean, how are you feeling longer term for yourself and what you're imagining for the two of you. No, Ana and I are not leaving the field completely. We are helping with the transition. We're gonna make sure things are set up correctly to be successful, and we will become active advisors for several more years. So no, we definitely want to make sure that this new chapter is a successful one and we'll do whatever we can to make that happen.

41:24So the sustainability story, we're always hoping that that story becomes even more meaningful to people. Do you have a sense that that is really taking hold more? Well, I'm always looking for silver linings, Dennis. And yes, even in this crazy tariff environment we've been living through, there is a silver lining because vintage is tariff-free. The vintage product that we have already located here in the US has and will continue to be tariff-free regardless of what happens between the US and Europe. So that has been a real positive for us as a business. Unfortunately, it has made it challenging for the broader design industry.

42:05But in that regard, we're getting a slightly bigger piece of the smaller pie. And it's introducing people to how good it is to buy vintage. You were asking about the sustainability message. And it's so funny because my life before this was in the fashion space. And I worked with Levi's on all these sustainable programs to reduce water usage. And what I learned when I was doing all that in the fashion space was that sustainability is important, but it's rarely the first driver in terms of purchase decision-making. In other words, style first, quality, of course, right price, and then jump ball goes to sustainability.

42:43I mean, there is a segment of people who it really drives 100 % of their decision-making, but for most people, it is kind of that final, I'm on the fence, and looking at two separate things, the right thing to do is to go for the sustainable option, then we find that they will. That's what all of our research is, and that's consistent with my experience in fashion as well. It does. I mean, what our examination of the research suggests is that for some reason in Europe, it seems to be much more meaningful to people than it is in the States. And so we haven't sort of caught up with whatever that mindset is that, to your point, makes sustainability a greater priority for some of our trading partners.

43:23But coming back to the tariff discussion, what I'm curious about is, so I get it if people are selling things from their home or what have you here in the States, but you also obviously have this big European operation and I'm assuming lots of that inventory is coming into the States. So how does that come through and how do you deal with that? So I think when we were dealing with Europe, one of the really important things as all these tariffs were changing was, you know, that's obviously something, unfortunately, we can't control. But what was really important and that we, I think, uniquely provide versus our competition is full clarity for people who are shopping with us on European product about what their potential exposure is.

44:06Because the worst thing that can happen is you buy something, it shows up, and you get this huge tariff bill you didn't know about. So what we were uniquely able to do, and still are, is to tell you with confidence what we think the landing cost. When you check out, we give you that scenario. And the good news is with the recent reduction in tariffs or threatened tariffs now implemented, they're actually lower than what was threatened. And so we are actually giving refunds to some people who bought during that time period to reflect that the reality was less than what it could have been. So first advantage is, of course, having most of our inventory already here.

44:45And then the second advantage is if you do fall in love with something from Europe, you know, kind of what the maximum exposure is and what you're going to get. And we're not going to be surprising you. And I think particularly for designers who need things approved by clients and nobody likes a surprise bill, that's been really a point of differentiation and quite helpful. Yeah. I mean, and that's a great point. And one of the challenges that so many designers have been raising. Is this price uncertainty? And we keep waiting for this to show up meaningfully in the economy, the confusion around all of this, the sort of inability to make big decisions about investments.

45:26Has that shown up at your doorsteps in a meaningful way? Well, I think we're fortunate that it is the bigger slice of a smaller pie, meaning vintage is relatively more attractive, has been a positive for our business. Do we worry about how long that is going to be sustainable and what the future holds? Absolutely. Uncertainty is the buzzword that I think we and everyone else is experiencing. And we are hearing about it from our community of trade buyers too, where projects may not feel quite as plentiful or as easy to land as they have been. And what does this mean for the future? Sure. But as we were saying before, because we really are mostly here in the US, have product here in the US, when we do source out of the US, it comes from Europe, which is not the most highly tariffed place.

46:15So what we're seeing is pricing is going up more significantly for newly made product. And that's making the vintage look relatively more attractive, introducing more people to the sustainable planet friendly way of furnishing your home in a stylish manner, all those good things. But also smart from a pricing standpoint, because to Greg's point, for all the newly made stuff that's being manufactured in Asia, the tariffs there are far more significant than what we're seeing even in Europe. And so tariffs aren't helpful to the European business, but compared to buying newly made, it's still cheaper.

46:49What are you seeing with regards to online adoption? So I often, I talk to more established designers and they say, oh, my young team, they spend all their time on the computer. And that's the only thing that they look at and everything's being done online. And then I talk to other people and they say, oh, we've got this great website, but our clients aren't taking advantage of it. And we wish that more people were coming to us. Greg, what's your sense of adoption levels in our industry? One of the macro metrics that we pay attention to is what does online penetration look like? And that's business school speak for what is the portion of an industry that is purchased online.

47:31And for home furnishing, it's still relatively small. When you compare home furnishings to fashion or other categories, home furnishings has a long way to go to catch up with other industries. So I think online will continue to grow faster than the total industry for the foreseeable future, for sure. In terms of how do people like to buy, people want it all. They want it online. They'd like to be able to visit in person. They would like to be able to sometimes do both. So I think omni-channel is the buzzword that you hear a lot about when you ask retailers what's happening. That's the way customers shop.

48:08They like to have online and in person. We see that most dramatically when we do physical events. We do an occasional pop-up. the one you're most familiar with probably is what we've done with Bergdorf. And there we definitely see the halo effect of more people seeing Cherish and the products that we have. So that is helpful in that we sell a great volume of product through Bergdorf directly, but it also is, we see more people coming from the broader New York area to the Cherish website. And I think that the answer to that question is really unique for one of a kind product, Because when you put yourself in the position of a typical retailer who has a set range of sofa styles in a variety of fabrics, physical retail as a starting place that then is followed up on online, or you can see where you can maximize that square footage in a very clear way.

49:03With one-of-a-kind product, whatever you have in the store isn't what you have online. You know, so it plays a really different role. And so I actually think that because of the lack of inventory depth that comes with one-of-a-kind product, the endless aisle of digital is where it's at. And then we use physical retail, to Greg's point, as a way of raising awareness for the brand and introducing people to really the fabulous sellers that we have on the site, which make the site kind of what it is, and how unique and wonderful their inventory is. And sometimes that connects right there in the store, but often they come back online and discover that product from either that seller online or from one of the many other sellers that we have online.

49:47So I think the answer is really unique because of the nature of our one of a kind and we deal all in singles. Yeah. No, no, no. That makes sense. I'm wondering what your sense, Greg, about – so we look at this$85 million acquisition for you, right? Which interestingly, and this sadly speaks to the hard times that First Dibs has fallen on since coming public. First Dibs valuation is not that much higher. I believe it's in the$95 million range. So, I mean, it suggests that this has been a challenging market environment for a lot of these online marketplaces. Do you get a sense that things are turning, that we're seeing more positive signs of business conditions?

50:39What's your take? Well, great question. I mean, now that we're part of a public company, I have to be careful about what I say about other public companies as well as ourselves. But what I could say about valuation and marketplaces is they really care about growth and they really care about profitability. And the companies that get the highest valuations are the companies that deliver both of those to their investors. And I think in that regard, our progress in terms of growth and in terms of reaching and sustaining profitability has made Cherish a very attractive asset for ATG. So I think it speaks well to what the team is.

51:21Our valuation, while in this world of unicorns, it's not that, but it's a very strong and respectable outcome for the team and the investors who've helped us to get here. No, no, it makes sense. I'm wondering what your sense is about whether we're I keep looking for green shoots. I keep hanging on home builder sentiment numbers. And I I'm trying to be encouraged about Wayfair turning profitable again in the most recent quarter, which is something they've only done one other time during COVID. So I'm trying to think, OK. And interestingly, to the point about showing up in person, I have to believe that part of that is they've built a Paragold store in Houston and they've got another one coming soon.

52:08They've got a location outside of Chicago for Wayfair and they've got more of those coming. It seems like, to your point, Greg, about Omnichannel, it seems like even the diehard online companies are waking up to, yes, I do need to physically show up in some big markets in a big way. And I wonder, again, if that's a positive sign of things to come or what your sense is. You know, the dynamic, very, very large industry, very, very fragmented industry. I think consolidation is one of the things that is certain to continue in and around our space. Sometimes that's people going out of business, unfortunately.

52:46Sometimes it's companies coming together to find more efficient and effective ways of reaching a broader audience, which is what we're doing here, to try and deliver more value to buyers and to sellers. Is that a green shoot or is that just an ongoing dynamic of what's happening? I'm not sure. I think there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic that we're not going to continue at the record low level of home sales, which is really the leading indicator of home furnishings growth. But I also don't see any reason to think it's going to get worse from where we are today. And I think there are reasons to believe it's going to get better.

53:27I've gotten out of the business of trying to forecast when mortgage rates are going to start coming down. That would have been, I would have been wrong so many times by now. It's a little bit embarrassing. But I do think, you know, they're unlikely to stay where they are. And in the meantime, while people are waiting for them to go down, I do think people are acclimating to a higher baseline level and it will just begin to pick up regardless of what the broader interest rate environment does. So is that a green shoot or is that? Well, no, exactly. I mean, and I think part of the reason, and you tell me, but I'd be part of the reason that I'm guessing you were able to get to that EBITDA profitability that you referred to earlier is that you did what you had to do to navigate through some pretty challenging times and whatever that meant restructuring-wise within your own organization and finding greater cost efficiencies in the same way Wayfair has been doing quarter after quarter.

54:25I mean, they kept losing money and saying, but we're cutting costs, we're cutting costs. And finally, they seem to have found that number where it doesn't look like sales increased dramatically, but they increased enough where it finally allowed. I would say for us, Dennis, to answer that a little bit more specifically, it's what you just said. So getting more, you know, higher expectations for return on ad spend, that kind of stuff, the cost cutting that goes with that. But also, I think for us, it's gotten made us focus even more on who are most profitable buying segments and really put an emphasis on the trade.

54:57And that's been an important part of our story here, which is the percentage of our businesses being on the that's being done with the trade has grown and grown and grown during this time period. and as anybody who operates in the high-end space knows, if you don't have the trade, you don't have business. And so I would say that, I wouldn't say we woke up to it. It's always been important, but I think just putting an increasing emphasis on that component of our business has really been helpful. And the other sort of lever that we've pulled very aggressively is automation. So we're a marketplace, we're a matching marketplace, right?

55:31We have listings from all over the world and we have buyers from all over the United States and Europe and actually the rest of the world too. And our job is to help those buyers find what they're looking for, regardless of where that piece is, and get that piece quickly, safely, and as cheaply as possible from the seller to the buyer. That is partly a manual process, but really it's a systems integration process. It's enabling buyers to find very quickly what they're looking for and try and inspire them with things from our community of often trade that we like to bring in and help celebrate the beautiful things that we have.

56:10But it's partly through improved search and discovery. And then on the seller side and the shipping side, gosh, that was one of the really hard things we've had to figure out. How do we do that at scale quickly and relatively cost effectively? That is a very hard problem to solve too. And we don't do it with people. We do it with smart systems talking to lots of different shoppers because the right answer across town in New York is different from New York to London or London. Anyway, it's never the same answer. It also depends how big and fragile the piece is. The permutations are very big and wide, and it's easy to get wrong.

56:47And fortunately, we think we do it as well as anybody, if not better. Well, so Greg, are you opening the door for me to have an AI conversation with you? Yeah, let's do it, baby. And for you to tell me all the magical ways that you're incorporating AI and how all the efficiencies that you found, go ahead. Dennis, I thought we were going to avoid tariffs or getting tariffs and AI into the same conversation. I'd much rather talk about AI than tariffs. Come on. Is it transformative and game changing? Absolutely. Is it something we think can make our business better? Absolutely. Are we using it in every possible way yet?

57:25No, we're figuring it out like everybody else. It's helping us to get our imagery in the right place more quickly and more cost effectively. It's helping us address customer service issues quickly and effectively. It doesn't mean you can't talk to a person. We think that's going to continue to be really important. But there are some simple questions that can get answered more quickly and more consistently by AI. And the discovery process, I mentioned the discovery and personalization is another area where I think AI can really play and is increasingly playing an important role. Because Dennis, what you're looking for today may be related to what you're looking for tomorrow and two weeks from now and a month from now, because we start to understand what kind of a stylish guy you are.

58:13And for other people, it's very different look and feel of what they're looking for. And we can help bring that to life because the more listings you have, the more likely you have something that you're looking for. But boy, the harder it is for you to find it because when we had 35 items that came from our house, you could see everything in five minutes. Now that we've got a million and a half items on the site, five minutes is hard, but we wanna make that five minutes absolutely as valuable and productive as possible. So we're paying very close attention to it. Sure, hugely transformative. And I wonder, getting back to this notion of this acquisition allowing for the next growth stage for Cherish, What are you hoping that you might be able to do with this big publicly traded British company behind you now?

59:05I think for our shoppers, it's going to mean a lot more selection. The other thing I guess I would say is on the seller side, which I think has enormous opportunities. So we know that a lot of our dealers who sell on Cherish buy on live auctioneers. And one of the things I consistently hear across our dealer community is, I got into this because I love buying and selling and, you know, finding beautiful things, but the data management part of it is such a bear. And so the extent to which we can help people move from sourcing to listing quickly and kind of take the friction out of that process, I think will be really powerful.

59:40And in terms of people wondering what big changes they're likely to see on Cherish in the near future, because people get anxious when they hear a company's being acquired and they speculate wildly about what changes might or might not be coming. Right now, I mean, all the things I just described take time. So that's going to be time to develop. I mean, the vision for the company is that the curation standards for Cherish stay the same. The brand voice and the brand distinction, which a lot of that comes from my heart, is still going to be there. I'm still staying involved with the company on that level.

1:00:18And I think that all of that will stay in place right now. You mentioned anxiety, and I can totally understand how that is something when the big announcements like this happen. And I thought you were going to ask me about private equity, which is a source of much of the anxiety and what happens, what often happens. And that's not what this is about. We are selling and integrating - This is not a private equity company that's buying us. It's a publicly traded - Operating business that is in and around the industry with brands that people know and are familiar with. So I think from that regard, I just want to make sure people are not anxious about what it means.

1:00:54Like Ana said, we are enabling the e-commerce industry. It's very consistent with the mission and why we started Cherish. We want to fix what still feels like a broken secondary market for design objects, right? It's a huge industry. It's a huge opportunity. It's a problem that hasn't been fixed yet. And I think working with the ATG portfolio will help to take a really important next few steps forward to the solution. And then just to answer your question also, Dennis, I think one of the things this opens up for us is scale. So as a small company of 100, Greg, you can get me right on the number, but I think we're at about 140 people.

1:01:31The choices have been hard, right? Like, where do you focus your engineering team? And for us, that's made you very choiceful, but also meant that there's a lot you can't get done. And so as an example, when we launched buyer and seller communication, which has been transformative to our business, that really meant that that was all we could focus on for a good quarter of our time. And that means that other important projects don't get addressed in the way that we want. And so it's just the idea of having more resources and a larger team so that we can, you know, walk and chew gum more readily at the same time and go after multiple opportunities, including new ones that are afforded by this alliance, is really exciting for us and powerful.

1:02:14So I'm excited for that. Yeah, well, I'm glad. And did John Paul offer you a little London apartment as part of the deal? I mean, was that part? I'm hoping that was part of the package for you. Oh my gosh, where were you when we were negotiating, Dennis? We should have asked for that. The Wall Street Journal is telling me that Americans are buying up London properties right, left and center. I was hoping that was part of your new life. We do love London. I will say that. Well, and listen, again, remarkable that this company was launched, 35 products, most of them yours on the original site, the two of you scheming this business and coming up with this.

1:02:56And over the last 12 years are now selling it for$85 million. So I mean, pretty impressive, pretty remarkable. Let's hope for great things from Cherish in the future. But I'm sure you've got to be feeling pretty good about all you've done so far. It's nice of you to say, Dennis. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, and as we've described in a pretty, pretty challenging 12-year period. Let's just say it hasn't been boring ever. To be sure. But congratulations to you both. And I really appreciate you making the time to tell me all about it. Thanks, Dennis. Thank you, Dennis. It means a lot to us. Thank you so much.

1:03:36And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? Business of Homes coming and goings column caught my eye this week, Dennis. every week or every month, rather, I should say. We publish a roundup of all the big moves in the industry. And this week there was an interesting move, which was that this company called Standout for Good welcomed Jason Edelman as the chief operating officer of his home division. This is interesting to me just because Standout for Good was last, at least on the Thursday show, because they had acquired Lawson Fenning and somewhat of a surprise deal.

1:04:14Standout for Good is the parent company of this faith or mission-based apparel retailer called Altered States, among a few other sub-brands of that. And they're definitely making a big play for home. It's like they've hired, I don't know, five or six people out of Restoration Hardware recently. Jason Edelman used to be at RH. I used to be at Williams-Sonoma. So Stand Out for Good is clearly making a push for home. And I'm really interested to see what it's going to look like. Because right now, they have some Altered State home stuff. They bought Lawson Fennig. I don't know. Are they going to come up with a new brand?

1:04:49Are they going to open a ton of stores? It just feels really unexpected and interesting to me. And I'm hopeful that someday we can get them on the show. Maybe not immediately, but pretty soon we can get them on the show to talk about it because it's interesting to me. Did you see that one too, Dennis? I did. And I was so eager to talk with you about it, funny enough. And I am eager to learn more, but they are clearly making moves at Stand Out For Good. So we'll hopefully get them on the show at some point. Anyway, what caught your eye this week, Dennis? A couple things caught my eye. First, I was delighted and surprised to receive a text from friend of the show, John Edelman, who clearly had been listening to the Thursday show and our conversation about who's going to start accepting crypto in the home industry.

1:05:35And he said, looky here, 2Modern has made an announcement. So 2Modern is an online modern furniture and lighting and home company. And they have announced, sure enough, that they will be accepting U.S. dollar stablecoins as a means of payment on their site. So we have our answer to who's going to be taking crypto. And I was delighted to see that. I wonder if many others will follow. Kravit is just behind them, I'm sure. Terry Kravit saw that and he says, wait, hold my beer. No doubt. The other piece of news that I was so excited to see because I know they've been waiting for a home in New York, the Kipps Bay Showhouse at long last, Fred, will be coming to New York this fall in in quite a sizable townhouse down at 20 West 12th Street.

1:06:30and it's currently on the market for 16.5 mil and that looks like a steal for the 8 bed, 9 bathroom, 9 ,300 square foot space but Kips Bay has a home in New York and it will be coming soon. Sadly not the bubble house on 71st Street Sadly not Fred's choice of bubbling. This is such a relief because I know they were sweating trying to find a house. It's the 50th anniversary, it's a big deal You know, there were like these, you know, on social media, they were posting, please like help us get something. And they, they got something. Now, the next thing I'm curious about is, you know, is the Upper East Side crowd going to complain about having to go down to 12th Street?

1:07:11And, you know, I don't think Kips Bay has ever been below, I don't know, 34, 50th Street, let alone below 14th Street. But I think it's going to be awesome. I welcome Kips Bay to, you know, the cool downtown world that I inhabit. And I'm really excited for this. Well, I will definitely have to lead my mother down to Westwell Street because she's not exactly sure where that is. Iron-armed guards to get her down there. But I'm very excited for them, and I'm sure it's going to be a fantastic house. I really can't wait. That's always such an exciting time when it arrives. And last year, the Business of Home team all went together as a field trip, so I hope we get to do that again.

1:07:48I look forward to that. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.