The Thursday Show: Inside the rise of design Substack. Plus: Why designers are embracing WhatsApp

24:25Has it become an indispensable tool for Dennis Scully? Do you use WhatsApp? It has not, Fred, although I will say that every time I'm preparing for a European trip, a lot of people reach out and want to make sure that they have my WhatsApp contact information. And that was part of the message of this story. And it clearly is a place where community is coming together. Yes? Yeah, I mean, I think like probably most people listening will know what WhatsApp is, but it's a messaging app owned by Meta, the company that owns Facebook. And it may seem at first glance like, okay, this is just text, but it's run through, you know, the internet as opposed to SMS.

25:07So that makes it a little bit different under the hood. But it's also a kind of a more robust app. Like imagine a text thread where you could have all these polls and you can share PDFs and sign PDFs and do all this sort of X. It's like texting supercharged, essentially. And I actually got into it in kind of a roundabout way. I was having a conversation with a PR agent, shouts to Byron Cordero, about a totally different story. And WhatsApp came up and he was talking about how he's in a WhatsApp group with a lot of people and people give each other opportunities and little pointers and tips. And then it just started to come up more and more.

25:39I'd, you know, hear about this designer who was in a WhatsApp group with 30 other high-end designers around the country. And they would share insight. And, you know, another person had a WhatsApp group around artisan sourcing. It was almost like these little mini social networks that people, like little tiny social network people were building. And, you know, I got interested in it. And so I tasked Caroline to do some, you know, hardcore gumshoe reporting on WhatsApp. And, yeah, I don't know. What's been your experience with it, Dennis? Have you come across WhatsApp much in your comings and goings?

26:08Yeah, I mean, I think your point about this micro social network is so significant in this whole discussion, because I think it's a way to control a relatively small group. It was interesting to hear the designers talk about how much more immediately responsive they are to these notes that come up. I might be in a meeting, but I'm going to respond to my WhatsApp group right away. But I might not respond to the email from my mom until much later. But I thought that that was interesting because there is this urgency. I also thought it was interesting and people so often talk about just how cooperative and collaborative our industry can be.

26:49and you create these groups that just can share resources or share their different vendors. So often I see designers pop into a group and say, hey, I'm doing a job in Tulsa. Who do you got? Who do you recommend? And I think this is a great use of that. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think it speaks to sort of an exhaustion and frustration with bigger social networks. Like I think there are like frankly some amazing Facebook groups related to interior design. But I do think that you run into the issue of, you know, these groups get really big and you have like people's opinion, you know, jumping in with their opinion.

27:24It's like totally unrelated to your business and people's political opinions or cultural opinions come into the mix. And it can become a little bit chaotic and kind of like a pile on. Whereas if you have this like highly curated group of 15 to 20 people whose opinions you all basically trust, I think that's a really valuable tool to tap into. And so I think it kind of speaks to an exhaustion and frustration with like bigger social networks. One of the interesting things about the WhatsApp too is that it's often used by designers as a project management tool, which I thought was really interesting.

27:57It's like, you know, you got your job, you've got one little thread with just you and your clients. You've got one little thread with you and the vendors and one with everybody on the same thing. and I sort of feel like there's a kind of brilliance to it because on the one hand, it feels a little bit like, all right, we're just texting about these huge decisions, but there is an immediacy to it. Like as you were saying, people will respond to a WhatsApp like that. Whereas like who wants to sift through their inbox and get through all the emails that pile up? WhatsApp is kind of fun and quick and I get why designers want to use it.

28:28I agree. And as you point out, if it can be a politics-free zone too, well, that's great. No guarantees on that one. Absolutely. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a look at Kelly Wurstler's latest collab and advice on talking about sustainability with architects and contractors. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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30:22And we're back. Today we're going to be talking about Substack, and to do that I am joined by two people who seem to have developed quite a following on Substack, so I'm eager to hear what they have to tell us. David Michon, who writes for Scale on Substack, and Leonore Epstein, who writes Schmata on Substack. Thank you both for joining me. A pleasure. Thank you. So glad to get to talk to you. We've written about this. We've talked about this. But I sense that a lot of people still don't really understand what Substack is all about. Today, we're going to figure it out. Leonora, I'm going to start with you.

30:58Tell me a little bit about your background and what led you to Substack. Sure. So I am a media executive. I co-founded and was the editor-in-chief and VP of a publication called Hunker. Hunker was about exploring design through a lens of relatability. We ran everything from original home tours to, of course, your SEO content. But we did a lot of sort of think pieces. We talked a lot about real estate. It was a good time. Hunker has since been sold. And I was laid off. The entire team was laid off. And I thought I needed a plan B. So I looked to sub stack and just decided to start writing about the design things that really excited me, but were not necessarily appropriate for a mass publication.

31:58and that's why I started Shwata. David, what about you? Yeah, I mean, I suppose I am in large part a content strategist and copywriter and in a small part a frustrated editorial writer. So that is part of the reason that Substack and writing for scale scratches a bit of an itch for me. Let's explain, David, if you wouldn't mind, exactly what Substack is or what it was intended to be anyway. Yes. Well, Subsec is essentially a newsletter platform. So I think there are a few of these out there that seem to have kind of found a lot of momentum during the pandemic. I think probably a lot of people who maybe were laid off from their jobs or something or found new interests or just wanted to feel a sense of community or something started to kind of write their own newsletters.

33:03And I think Substack has attracted a lot of people because more than other platforms, they seem to have a little bit of a community energy. I think they seem to want to attract or at least have wanted to attract in the past writers where it seems like many other newsletter platforms seem to be a little bit more. They seem to speak a little bit more to businesses or brands. It also seemed as if part of the allure or it seemed somewhat to be set up as blogging 2.0 with a way to actually monetize things more easily. You could create some free content, but there was a very or relatively easy way to tell people you can subscribe to this for free and get X amount of content, but also if you're willing to pay monthly or annually.

33:54David, I wonder if you could tell people a little bit about what you write about and the perspective that you bring to it. You mentioned some of the different experiences that you've had and also some frustration with not being able to put things on other platforms. Part of the reason for me was a realization that, you know, I would be kind of occasionally buying design magazines and I would almost never read them. I would often kind of like look at the pictures, I would kind of look through them, but I kind of had this moment where I was like, why am I not engaged in this as someone who like really likes design, particularly, you know, domestic interior design.

34:36So yeah, 4Scale kind of emerged in large part as a way of reflecting in some senses, like the types of conversations and the tones of conversations that I was having with friends around design, which were snarkier, I guess, more critical. And it's very interesting to see because there's a lot of incredibly observant, smart, very hilarious people who write for some major design magazines. And you have a conversation with them at some party and it's like amazing. And they have incredible observations. And then somehow it just doesn't seem to translate once it's like put through the filter. you know, of Hearst or Condé Nast.

35:28Leonore, I wonder, let's talk a little bit about Schmata and what you write about, because it's a wide range of things. And you said earlier that sometimes, again, things that weren't necessarily appropriate for big publications or design media, as we think of it. So Schmata, for those who don't know, is a Yiddish term, meaning a sort of gross or rag-like piece of clothing. My grandmother might say to me if I walked in my bed top, she would say, what schmata is this? And so I kind of transferred that idea to how I like to look at the world and look at decor, which is sort of imperfect and messy and dirty, I guess.

36:15I like to say that Shmata is, it is highbrow, it's lowbrow, it's unibrow, it's everything. I love talking about Edith Wharton and her design writings and how that sort of speaks to affluence today to, as you guys mentioned on this podcast a few weeks ago, my true dislike for fall decorating, which uses an expletive in the title that I don't think is family friendly. I was hesitant to even wear a fall looking sweater, knowing that I was going to be talking. No, I love fall fashion. Fall fashion is great. But, you know, a lot of my ideas do tend to come out of this other type of thinking that I would never do in my role as an editor at a decor publication.

37:17So much of what you're doing when you're on staff at a publication is you're aiming to hit your goals. You're aiming to maximize revenue. So, you know, the performance of your job is very much tied to what you're bringing to the website in terms of traffic and revenue. And there are unfortunately sort of formulas that reach larger audiences that are not necessarily very exciting to me. So you don't have internally yourself any KPIs then, Leonora, that you're trying to hit? Not a one. No. I mean, certainly I would be very disappointed if my audience started shrinking and nobody read Schmata. But I mean, I do have certain goals in terms of, okay, I would like to get to a subscriber base of this size.

38:13I would like to expand the business in other ways. I have been working on a project with my business partner, Christine Barberik. She's the co-founder of Refinery29. And, you know, we're putting together a group, I guess you could call it, that aims to engage advertisers in the home space through the Substack design community. I think there's a lot of potential for design Substack. It's a much smaller part of the larger Substack community. So I'm trying to encourage advertisers in the home space to think outside the box and to come over to Substack and see that you can drive true engagement and awareness.

39:00I mean, it's so interesting now to observe where Substack is in its journey. A lifetime ago, I was working at Monocle Magazine and was very involved in their launch of a radio station, also known as a suite of podcasts. And the energy around podcasts in 2011 was very similar to the energy around Substack now, which was a lot of new energy around a certain medium or way of communicating. A lot of interesting people kind of doing interesting things. A lot of those people then able to kind of cut through. So Substack isn't super crowded, overcrowded yet, as was the case with podcasts 15 years ago.

39:53And so it's an interesting prospect, I think, for people who have something to say, like Leo and I, or advertisers to kind of speak to an audience that is freshly engaged, like really paying attention. It's still at a point where people are seeking us out. You know, the people who subscribe to Fourscale are really a niche within the design industry. Yeah, I think it's really key what you say in terms of our audiences are really seeking out our content, which I think is, you know, not the way people these days engage with content. It comes to them and it's very passive. And I think that specifically for decor media, this has, you know, really diluted the category in general.

40:42I mean, it's all media, right? Because it's how we receive information. It's on Instagram. It's being fed directly to you. And I do feel that Substack has the potential to revive the decor slash like home and interiors as a sought after general interest category. Well, I always wonder, I mean, we've talked a little bit about what some of the challenges are for the major shelter publications, right? And obviously, listen, it's an advertiser-driven model, and the advertisers themselves want to feel safe within this space. and they don't yet understand Substack and all of the different people who are contributing to it and how much to the left or right or not in terms of political terms, but in terms of how much of an edge the writing and the content might contain.

41:39They know the big shelter titles. Those are proven models, right? And to your point, much of what you were frustrated is not there. is what's comforting to them that it isn't there, right? And we often talk about the lack of design criticism, for example, and the fact that the major publications just can't and don't feel comfortable delivering meaningful design criticism. Dan Rosen, the comedian, was just on recently talking about this issue with us, and he's done fun videos where he just does house tours and some roasting and some criticism. And it's found a big audience. Obviously, people want that, but it seems risky.

42:25Yeah. And that's not the fault. I mean, that's the fault of the advertisers. You know, it is absolutely the case that, you know, if there is a major advertiser who is, say, like not included in some list of like best so-and-sos in their category, they'll pull advertising. You know, that's the same in fashion magazines. That's the same kind of like across the board. So the margins are too slim in media to really digest a major advertiser pulling their relationship with you. And in terms of like major publications, There, the kind of quid pro quo of advertising in media is, is something that at least at this point is not necessarily kind of replicated in Substack.

43:15It's seen as like far more independent. So the pay to play nature of what we see in a lot of the big publications today, or to your point, David, the assumption that advertisers have that I'm going to advertise with you and you're going to make sure I'm on these lists and you're going to make sure that I'm spoken well of. Yes, exactly. Yes. But I think the question is, is that even effective these days? Is that as meaningful? Is that what you mean? Yes. And I think for the people on Substack, I think we would say that it is, you know, that traditional model is far less impactful. And so do you think that that's part of the solution that Substack somehow represents?

43:59And if so, how does that help to fix the issue that we're talking about? If that's not too big and heavy a question for you to answer. Yeah. Look, like David said, Substack is new and new-ish. And there's a big question about how it will evolve and what its priorities will become in the future and whether that will be more conducive to bringing advertising to the platform or are they just going to continue to focus their revenue efforts on paid subscriptions? Look, everything in media is cyclical. So of course, if advertisers catch on on Substack, there is the potential to replicate that same cycle of where the advertiser actually has more of the upper hand and they're directing their content.

44:56But so far, in my experience, the advertisers who are coming to Shmata are looking to associate with Shmata because of the unique voice, because of its truthfulness and lack of pretension, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I don't know if Substack is like the like solve for the design media. I would love to see a really incredible, critical, edgy architectural digest. You know, I love big heritage magazines that have been kind of like publishing for decades. I don't want to see those magazines go away. I think for me, Substack is not really with the intention of creating, you know, I'm mostly interested in Substack as like a refuge, as a writer, as a space to kind of say the things that I want to say without kind of having them filtered through what I see as an increasingly constricting filter.

46:07Well, I mean, I wonder to that point, I mean, I wonder if what's happening on Substack is a way to show traditional media, if you will, what's happening in this space. And that there's an appetite for X, Y, or Z. To your point, people are coming. People are searching this out rather than it being pushed to them. And that's often an indication of genuine interest and engagement. And that's just the kind of thing, going back to advertisers, that they're looking for. So often, some of the criticism hurled at both the design industry and the home industry at large and the shelter publications is, boy, everyone could sure use just a little bit more of a sense of humor or maybe not take things so seriously.

46:57And I think that seems to be something that can be learned from what is happening in the Substack space. Yes? I'm curious to know right now if publications are not even really considering engaging with the design sub-stack audience because maybe they view it as competition. There's a lot of lessons to be learned, to your point, Dennis. I mean, I think people are interested in a diversity of voices. You know, in part, maybe I feel like a lot of major design magazines are, you know, in terms of the writing, a little bit samey. There's not a huge tonal range in terms of the writing, the way someone is interviewed, the way a project is described, the type of critical comments that can be made.

47:50You know, I think that's what people are finding on Substack is that there's a huge variety. so you can find something that floats your boat and that's great you know and it's just kind of adding to a media diet I'm sure that a lot of people who read Forescale are also reading those magazines and probably getting a lot from it and that's great I love that you know I want to see those magazines like find success and continued lifespan but maybe it's it's there was a missing element as opposed to something that is competitive per se. This is a way to add to your diet, you're suggesting. Yeah. Yeah.

48:34No, that makes sense. And David, out of curiosity, do you get pushback sometimes when you kind of tease or kid about some people in our industry or - Not to my face. I think, you know, who knows what people are saying that isn't communicated to me, but But I think the most comments that I get when I run into people who email me after posts are when I say more critical things. I think I'm very, or I hope to be very careful to criticize in a constructive way. I want people to do better. I want, you know, as I've said, you know, I would love the decor world to be vibrant and critical and funny and snarky and all of these things.

49:26So anything that I can do to poke to encourage that is where criticism comes from. So and is that what doing better means in your mind? That's what doing better means in my mind. I'm sure a lot of people have different approaches or different understandings of what doing better would mean. But for me, it is interior, you know, like domestic interior design, which is what I focus on, is a space of incredibly intimate personal expression. And I think there's a lot of unserious fun to be had with a lot of quite important, serious implications in terms of how we feel about our spaces. And I don't know if that's like the mission of Architectural Digest, for example, you know, which is like celebrity home tours.

50:17I feel like a lot of celebrity home tours, which is why Dan Rosen is so hilarious, are like complete gaslighting. You know, it's like we're meant we're told without a single critical note that these are aspirational interiors when sometimes they're totally dreadful or they've clearly just been, you know, some celebrity does a home tour and then immediately lists that property for sale. You know, it's like, what are the dynamics here? Which is where, like, you know, something like Apartamento is, like, more, is super interesting. Where, like, Nest Magazine, may it rest in peace, is, like, super interesting.

50:58Those felt a little bit more connected to, like, how I see the value of decor. You know, a lot of people talk about how Substack feels like blog world 1.0. Again, sort of like the Tumblr of 2007 or 2008 or something. because you do have real engagement on this platform. And it's not the anonymous type of engagement that I think you see on Instagram, where it's just a like or, you know, a comment with the like hands up praise emoji. You know, at least for me on Shmata, when I write a longer post that really has a point of view and an opinion, there are comments, you know? And what I love about it is that, Yes, my audience has a lot of designers.

51:48My audience has lots of people in PR and from home and design brands. But I do feel that a lot of the comments are people who are just interested in talking about something interesting. You know, and luckily, you know, in this case, it is related to decor. But I get a lot of comments, you know, with people sharing their own personal experiences or saying like, finally, you know, I've been thinking this for so long, but I never said it out loud. I think it's just also this amazing space that allows us to be humorous. And, you know, like I have this post about how I tried out Venus Williams' AI decorating tool, and it turned my daughter into what appeared to be a rather large sex toy.

52:46and you know talking about like the community engagement that that post generated was amazing there were I think I had a couple people who are moms or there was one who is like I have my baby napping in my arms and I'm laughing so hard that I am afraid I'm gonna wake her up yeah I I think that's so incredibly rewarding and and as we said throughout this conversation this is a this is a place where you can discover the more fun. Decor should be fun. There you go. Decor should be fun. And maybe sometimes some people take a little too seriously. And so this is a way to remind people not to do that.

53:29And sometimes find the humor in it, the joy in it. And hopefully, as we say, the writing will help people with that. And I hope that the industry will learn valuable lessons from it. So, and if nothing else, after today's conversation, I am sure people understand Substack so much better. And hopefully you will have a lot new readers by the time this comes out. So I thank you both for making the time to speak with me. Thank you so much. Thank you.

54:05And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? A lawsuit caught my eye this week. Always with your head in the lawsuits. Just to bring down the tone a little bit, we talked a few weeks ago about how E.J. Victor's factory in North Carolina was impacted by Hurricane Helene. And, you know, just a few weeks later, we see that they're suing their insurance company because the insurance company is saying that, technically speaking, that flood damage does not meet the definition of flood damage, which just goes to show you how, you know, if I don't even think every company in that region has flood insurance.

54:47So, you know, they had it and it's not getting paid out because of some weird technical thing. It just goes to show you how difficult it is. you know, climate change is going to bring a lot of weird challenges. Insurance complications are only one of them. I'm sorry, this is such a bummer for the end of the show here. But I do think the fact that there's some weird quibbling around the definition of what flood damage counts for in the wake of Hurricane Helene just goes to show you how challenging it is for companies to deal with the situation. So I'm hopeful that they either win the lawsuit or the company pays out, because how ridiculous is that?

55:18Couldn't agree more. How ridiculous is that? And I'm so sorry that they're having to deal with that. What caught you out of this week, Dennis? I'm going to try and pick it up a little here, Fred. Sorry, I'm sorry. It's just the news. Yes, absolutely. So I was at an event last week in the offices of Williams Lawrence celebrating the introduction of the new Create Academy course with the legendary Bunny Williams. And she is going to take you through her design technique and show designers and consumers how to feel more comfortable about decorating their home. And it's a wonderful course from what I've seen.

55:57It looks really beautiful. Create Academy is the English version of Masterclass. And we had Rita Koenig on the show a while back. At one point, Rita had the place all to herself. She was the only designer on there. But then her mom, Nina Campbell, came on and a bunch of other designers. And now, Bunny Williams. And it's a beautiful-looking course and should be a lot of fun. The other thing that caught my eye, the estate of legendary designer Mika Erdogan is going up for sale at Christie's, a very impressive contemporary art collection that includes some David Hockney and some Rene Magritte and Henry Moore sculptures.

56:39And it's coming up in just a few days, actually, at Christie's. We'll get a sense of how hot the market is. But it is a really impressive collection, and I see the catalogs have already sold out for that particular auction. I'm guessing a lot of designers bought up those catalogs, but I know a lot of the design community is going to be turning out for that auction. I'll have to dig in my couch cushions to see if I have enough to afford a Hockney. Those are some big numbers that I'm seeing for the estimates, so I don't think I'm going to be able to bid on this one, Fred. It'll be like you watching the Dakota go down without being able to place a bid.

57:14All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.