The Thursday Show: Is the design industry ready for the future? Plus: A new hub for home influencers

19:25Fred Nicolaus:But because the walls have gone down around that, I think the really exclusive stuff is the one-of-one stuff. And that you see in collectible design. So I don't think it's just one thing or the other, but I think that the sort of this auction is a sign of, you know, where the collectible design market is at, why it's where it is and what we're likely to see in the future. I feel like every time I see a panel where people are talking about anything, even tangentially related to this, it's this idea that there's just so much money at the very top people, you know, there's no, no price is, is an objection to people in that world.

19:56Fred Nicolaus:And so you need to come up with a way to cater to them to deliver something that they truly want. And I think right now they want collectible design. I agree. I think it's a great point and interesting to look at. So Dennis, what was a big story from the first half of this year that jumped out to you? Well, of course, I feel like we have to talk about Charles Cohen, right? I mean, this was a big story. And again, reminding everyone, we've talked at length about the enormous$534 million loan that Charles Cohen took out from the Fortress Investment Group. And part of that loan had a$187 million personal guarantee with Fortress.

20:34And Charles Cohen sort of ran right down to the wire in terms of actually paying off that part of the loan. And we speculated for quite some time about whether he'd be able to hold on to the D &D building and the Pacific Design Center. And he did, but a little bit of a Pyrrhic victory, perhaps, in that they're not the most full buildings. They're not sort of thriving and flourishing. So great, he came up with the money at the 11th hour, but now he's got to figure out what to do with these two enormous design centers. And I don't think the challenges or the troubles there are behind him. What do you think?

21:12Fred Nicolaus:You know the movie The Graduate, you know? Love that movie. I'm sure you've seen it. And I'm just maybe spoiling the end of it, but at the very end of The Graduate, there's a scene where Dustin Hoffman is kind of like ran off with the girl he really wanted. And it seems like a happy ending. But then they're just in the back of the bus at the very end. And the sound of silence comes in. They look kind of sad. And they have nothing to say to each other. Exactly. I kind of feel like that's where we're at. Forgive the tortured analogy, but I kind of like that's where we're at with the Charles Cohen story, which is that he pulled this great escape and managed to pay back the lender.

21:42Fred Nicolaus:And now he's even countersuing them. And so there's a sense that he's won this victory. But at the end of the day, we have these two design centers, the PDC and the D &D in New York, that everybody feels like are just not where they should be. They need new investment. They need new blood. They need new life. And I think this whole drama has been a really big story. But as you said, it's not over yet. Like, I don't you know, you can't have a design center that's only, what, 60, 70 percent full, you know, thinking charitably. And so something has to change there. I am honestly at a loss for for what comes next.

22:13Fred Nicolaus:And I agree. This is a really big story. Yeah, I think it's a really big story. And I was thinking about it, even in the context of the recent conversations we've had about Holly Hunt and Miller Knoll. Holly Hunt has two stories of space in the D &D building that I am certain during all of the back and forth with the reorganization of that company, I'm certain the enormous lease that they have at the D &D building was on the table. And I wouldn't be surprised if we learn that more moves are afoot, whether it's them or other tenants who certainly are thinking about moving or going elsewhere. So the story will continue, certainly not going away, but it's certainly been one of the more fascinating design industry stories this year.

22:53Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, no question. Huge story. So my next big story from the first half of the year is, and I hate to bring it back to tariffs, but I have to. And I just to get a little meta for a second here, I think what often happens with big news stories is that there's this incredible big reaction when they first come out. Oh, my gosh, this is going to change everything. People just jump onto the novelty. We in the media are no small part of that problem. And then when like life does continue on as normal and people keep doing their jobs, there's this overreaction the other way. People like, oh, it doesn't really matter.

23:24Fred Nicolaus:Tariffs didn't make a difference. You know, business as usual. Who cares? Whereas I think the truth really is kind of somewhere in the middle. I do think that if you talk to people who work at these furniture importing companies or anyone who brings anything into the U.S., which is most people in this industry, tariffs have occupied so much of their time over the past year and a half. It's just been a daily challenge to figure out where they're going to move importing from, how they're going to pay it, how they're going to deal with cash flow. And I think the impact is sort of, I don't want to say it's been invisible, but I think people have been able to swallow the costs or only raise prices a little bit, move things around here and there.

23:58Fred Nicolaus:But I do think that, A, there's been so much stuff that people have not done because they've been dealing with this instead of the stuff they really want to deal with. And prices have come up. If you look at the inflation numbers, you know, we just had our highest print in years last month. Admittedly, that was because of the Iran War. But still, you know, furniture pricing is coming up. People are raising their prices. They can't hold out any longer. And I think, you know, largely because of tariffs, but just general inflation, projects are so ridiculously expensive now. And that is impacting the industry in a real way.

24:29Fred Nicolaus:I know we're all tired of tariffs, but I think this is a really big news story. I agree, particularly the inflation part of it. And when I talk to so many designers that say to me, if nothing else, there's just a higher level of stress and feeling anxious because every aspect of this project is costing my clients so much money. I'm even more concerned about every little aspect of it. And I think that that's so real for everyone. And sadly, that inflation is not going away. Those costs aren't coming down. And that's been a big takeaway in all of this as well. Yeah, I think it has changed the industry in a lot of ways that are kind of subtle and hard to see.

25:06Fred Nicolaus:Because, of course, projects are still getting done. People are still buying stuff. It's just that maybe less goes into a home. There's like cost engineering to get the result you want. And it's just pushing designers more and more to try and seek out that truly affluent client who really doesn't care. I mean, I know this is a repetition of the K-shaped economy thing, but I think it's very, very real. That is such a desirable client right now. And I think anyone who's below that level is kind of struggling and trying to figure out, you know, how to put the puzzle together. But anyway, I think tariffs and leading to inflation is a truly big story this year and one that's not over.

25:37Fred Nicolaus:What about you? Well, and this one is related to inflation. Interestingly, we came into this year thinking that we were going to see a bunch of rate cuts. Good news. The housing market's going to recover and we're going to lower rates and mortgage rates are going to come down. And sadly, mortgage rates haven't come down. They're hovering around six and a half percent. And if you look at all of the giant banks and their predictions for where rates are headed, and we just heard from the newly appointed Federal Reserve chairman, he seems pretty concerned about inflation. So everybody has changed their models thinking that the likelihood of rates coming down this year is almost completely off the table altogether.

26:17And if anything, people have begun to raise the concern that maybe rates are actually going to need to tick higher in response to this inflation. Now, I actually think it would be pretty remarkable if this brand new Fed who was appointed to bring rates down suddenly does a complete 180 and raises rates. but he's clearly concerned about the inflation number. And that's a very different story than we were looking at at the start of this year.

26:41Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, I mean, I wonder how all this is gonna show up for designers, right? Because what we're really talking about here is the effect on housing. You know, this is higher interest rates are gonna make it more difficult to borrow money to buy a home, which means less people moving, which means less projects for designers. I wonder, you know, there was this, you look at the ASID's numbers around like the number of design firms and how it's, we've talked about this endlessly, but whether it's 100 ,000 or 110 ,000 or whatever, and it's generally predicted that number is only going to go up. I wonder if we're going to see that number almost come down a little bit.

27:11Fred Nicolaus:I just wonder if there were a lot of people who sprung up a design firm in the middle of COVID because everybody was moving, everybody wanted to judge up their home, and now as we obviously are through that period and housing hasn't restarted, if people are just going to go into other fields, maybe put that off to the side as a hobby and maybe come back to it later. I feel like there has to be an effect. I know there's an effect for designers, and I wonder if we'll see it in any of the numbers that we look at, because this drag on housing has just been so long-lived, no end in sight. I think it's such a great point, Fred.

27:42I think we often look at the struggles with the retail sector, and we've talked about how so many companies have filed for bankruptcy this past year or have been impacted by the slowdown. But I think you're right. Contraction in the interior design industry, why wouldn't there be?

27:57Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, except at the very top. Except at the very top, which is a good place to be if you're there. Well, and that's why we talked about so many people leaving firms and going out on their own. I think many of those people, if they haven't already come back, will continue to come back. Yeah. No, to be sure. Let's quickly talk about where we're going to be looking for the second half of the year. What are you looking out for, Fred, as we look out in the rest of the year? Yeah, well, this is a little bit of a hometown issue, but I do think New York's design scene is such an interesting place right now.

28:24Fred Nicolaus:you know we didn't talk about this but icff moving i think was actually a very big deal that sort of reorients the calendar here in new york and i think you know we did talk about the dnd building and that's a little bit in limbo but one of the big design centers that's still i don't want to say it's up for grabs but its future is in a weird place is the and d building you know we talked about this a few weeks or maybe months ago about how the building is quietly up for sale and there's the rumor that the new buyer will come in and turn it into condos or you know format into a different kind of office building.

28:52Fred Nicolaus:And that would be a huge shakeup as well. I just feel like right now, New York is, I don't want to say it's up for grabs, but it does feel like everybody's trying to figure out, you know, it used to be people in LA talk about, do you want to be in the building or the street? That's always been like a, you know, attention in LA. Whereas I feel like in New York, it's always for a long time. It was just like, yeah, you got to be in the D and D. I don't want to feel like that's the case anymore. I feel like people are sort of like looking at the city in a new way. And I'm really interested to see what happens with the A and D building, because if that changes hands or if, you know, the Charles Cohen thing, you know, goes a different direction, that's a, that's a watershed moment.

29:24Fred Nicolaus:And it'll be really interesting to see how it sort of reshuffles the, the deck here in New York. I'm also, you know, this is an interesting point, you know, we've talked about this on the show, but there's going to be a lot of big IPOs, you know, SpaceX already had its IPO, presumably open AI and Anthropoc are going to go public and dump, you know, billions into the San Francisco economy. Hopefully designers will see some of that. I was kind of speculating before we jumped on, on the show that maybe like the IPO market will heat up and some of these long rumored public listings will come true like Serena and Lily or dare I say at Houzz, although I think that's probably unlikely at this point.

29:54Fred Nicolaus:Maybe there will be home companies going public, but you were sort of speculating that actually the sword might cut the other way there. What's your lookout for the second half of the year? Yeah, I'm a little bit more cautious going into the second half of the year in part because of all these IPOs and all of these what we call the hyperscalers, all of these companies that are investing literally hundreds of billions of dollars into their AI build out are now also coming to the financial markets, companies that never needed to borrow money before because they threw off so much cash, Google, Amazon, Meta, all of them coming to the financial markets and wanting to borrow.

30:33And we've already seen the SpaceX IPO. Supposedly, we're going to be seeing the OpenAI and Anthropic IPOs, not to mention potentially the enormous Stripe IPO and some other IPOs that have long been discussed. And everyone's thinking, oh, is this the moment? And you wonder just how much capital is out there. And interestingly, we haven't talked about private equity in a while on the show. But if you look at the stock charts of private equity companies, I'm talking about Blackstone, I'm talking about Apollo, those stocks have been dropping for months. And that is an enormous concern to me because those were the guys that everybody talked about.

31:11Oh, they're just printing money. They're just waiting for the next opportunity. And so I think they're a little bit of a canary in the coal mine, if you will. There are an awful lot of companies, even foreign companies, that are coming public here in the U.S. that are all around tech. There's a lot of discussion around the AI bubble. I don't necessarily buy into the whole AI bubble conversation, but I do believe that there is late stage movement happening in the financial markets. And all these companies coming public or coming to the markets for financing is very much a late cycle movement. And so I just worry that there's been so much enthusiasm about spending in the home industry because the stock market's so high.

31:50What if it actually pulls back 20 %? What will that enthusiasm feel like then?

31:55Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, those people on the right side of the K-shaped economy, if they start to feel a little bit less rich, like what happens to that pocket that we've been talking about that's so well up? Yeah, it's an interesting thesis. I mean, like the entire U.S. economy increasingly feels like we all went to Vegas and put, you know,$20 trillion on AI and just, you know, spun the roulette wheel. And so if it doesn't work out, then there's going to be all kinds of weird consequences. Or if, you know, these IPOs don't go well. I feel like we're getting into wild speculation here, but it's such a good point that so much of the money is going into technology right now, and that's having weird knock-on effects on our little neck of the woods.

32:32Fred Nicolaus:But it's an interesting time, for sure. Yeah, because you see, it's certainly not the housing market that's driving the economy at the moment. Yes, it is not. It's all the hope around AI and tech. So we'll see. It definitely is something to watch. Finally, some sad news. Dave Dawson, who founded the Urban Electric Company alongside his wife Jen, has passed away. Dawson started the company in Charleston, South Carolina in 2003. Today, it's a beloved industry brand, employing 350 people. In 2018, he founded the Makers Alliance, creating a much-needed sense of community among the high-end product design and craft manufacturing industry.

33:15His passing produced an outpouring of grief from the industry, prompting magazine editors, designers, colleagues, and fellow business owners to post remembrances, often tagged with the motto Dawson coined, always proud, never satisfied. This is a tough one, Fred.

33:34Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, this was really shocking and really upsetting and kind of heartbreaking. You and I both knew Dave. He was on the podcast a couple of times, a really delightful, charming, I can go on and on with the positive adjectives. He really was a truly inspiring guy. one time he kind of reached out out of the blue and just sent me a note saying he liked this article I wrote which I will say is very rare when you write about the interior design business it was uh it was just it was an incredibly lovely gesture and really stuck with me he was always willing to hop on the phone and explain something everyone I've spoken to about this has been so shocked and he's touched so many people in such a positive way I mean he really really really was a very, very inspiring, warm, I could go on and on here.

34:20Fred Nicolaus:This is just so sad. I don't know if you have any memories you want to share, Dennis. Yeah, Dave and I used to joke about the Yankees. Dave was a big Yankee fan, and I grew up as a big Yankee fan in my household, and we were always joking about how they would show off too early in the season, and they'd be in first place, and then they'd fall apart. And I was literally just about to reach out to them because, of course, they've done it once again. The Yankees were in first place, and then they lost the entire series to the Red Sox. And I know he was hurting watching that happen. And I was always thinking of him and always wanting to send him a note about this or that.

35:02He and I had drinks not too long ago, kind of talking about the industry and how far his business had come over the years. I was so grateful to have visited the facility and gotten to participate in his incredible golden ticket project that he created to invite designers down and take tours of the factory. And he was always so generous in sharing so much of what they did. And he was just an inspiring guy on a lot of levels. I know that they've created an email that if people want to reach out and send a note to Jen and the kids, there's rememberingdave at urbanelectric.com. You can write a note and you can share a story or a remembrance that you have.

35:48But I know that everybody felt this quite strongly.

35:53Fred Nicolaus:Yes, I think that will be a very, very full inbox. He was such an example of someone who's a warm and lovely person, but someone who really did make the industry and the world a better place, really and truly. So this is just a heartbreaker. So please send in a note if you have one about Dave. Yeah, he will be missed. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including the relaunch of Schoolhouse and Gail Doby's advice for onboarding new clients. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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37:19And we're back. I'm joined now by Monica McCommon, who is the founder of the Home Influencers, a site that we talked about last week on the show. Monica, I'm so glad to have you on the show. Thanks so much for having me on. Well, it's a pleasure. And as I mentioned at the top, we had just been talking about the piece that Caroline wrote about the site, and I'm eager to get into all of it. But before we talk about the home influencers, tell me a little bit about your background and how you came to start this organization. Yes, absolutely. So I have a very diverse background. I started my career in technology consulting.

37:59I also have worked for very large brands like Under Armour and Stark, which is where I kind of got into the visibility into this type of marketing and really brought me into the ability to found the home influencers. Ultimately, what were you doing at Stark right before you left to start this? What was your role? I was a senior vice president of marketing at Stark. I had responsibility for brands, digital marketing, PR, e-commerce, the whole scope. And Stark is a multi-brand organization, so it wasn't just Stark. We had Ashley Starkholm, Missoni, we had some of the other brands under my belt as well.

38:40So it was a very valuable experience there. And it sounded as if you were exploring influencers at the time. And I know that Ashley Stark has very much become an influencer in her own right over the years. Absolutely. So running the marketing at Stark was incredibly valuable. It gave me a front row seat to how home brands were trying to navigate creator marketing. What I realized pretty quickly was that the challenge wasn't unique to just one company. It was really industry-wide. Every brand was asking the same questions. How do we find the right creators? How do we know who's credible? How do we structure these partnerships?

39:20How do we measure success? Everyone was solving the same problems independently. And this was really the moment that the idea clicked for me. It wasn't just a one company problem. It was an infrastructure problem. The industry doesn't really need another agency, to be honest. It really needs a company that's dedicated to building the creator ecosystem for home. And that's what the home influencers is. Oh, interesting. Okay. So tell me the, tell me the difference or tell me what that, what that means, because to your point, I guess there were people already out there who were, who were doing this in one form or another agencies that were connecting people.

39:57Right. So there's lots of different influencer marketing agencies. Um, there's also many other platforms that exist, but those platforms are category agnostic. And what we do and what we provide is the technology and the infrastructure and the end-to-end experience for brands to navigate the creator marketing ecosystem using our platform. Tell me more. Okay. So this is the exciting part. So I think lots of other platforms are built for volume, more influencers, more campaigns, whereas we are really focused on quality. And that is something that the home industry, especially in the influencer and creator marketing space, needs and warrants.

40:43So our platform is essentially a marketplace that connects brands with creators. And our network is a vetted network. So we have creators, interior designers, creators that are primarily creating in the home space, sharing content in their home. They have to apply to be part of the network. So we review every application, we vet every creator or influencer that comes and applies that we believe would be best suited to partner with our brand partners. We do reject a large set of applications, but that's really just the result of what we're trying to build. We want our brands to be connected as quickly as they can with the creators that are right for this industry.

41:32And the vetting process, so are there specific criteria beyond, I mean, is it a certain number of followers or as you just suggested, you try to see what the engagement from the followers really looks like? Right. The criteria that we really look for is not based on followers, which we actually have seen brands are not even as interested as they once were in working with creators and influencers that have a massive following. We are seeing the trend that brands are more interested in working with creators that are aligned with their brand specifically and can create high quality content. So why do you think there's been a shift away from prioritizing the number of followers, for example, which used to be the main barometer, it seemed like, or at least the jumping off point for many?

42:23I think the shift has been more around engagement. And brands are really looking to work with creators that have highly engaged audiences. And what has been your experience with brands and both their level of understanding about all of this, which we've talked about as often being one of the big challenges in a business like this, is the home industry hasn't embraced this whole notion in the same way that fashion or consumer packaged goods have. and part of it seems to be that they're very used to print advertising and they sort of get that conceptually they get if they're sophisticated enough and they look at cost per thousand and all of that they understand those metrics this seems sort of harder looser in their minds yes so i think really the shift has been especially with the introduction of so many social channels so many new applications, that we live in this abundance economy.

43:29The home industry has always been built on trust. And really, I think what we're building is the ability to have these home brands connect with these trusted voices, whereas prior to this, they didn't have the infrastructure to find the right creators, to really build those right relationships. I do believe that as this industry evolves, creator and influencer marketing isn't going to just be a test. And I find that many brands that we're working with, they're very interested in doing this type of marketing. They just really don't know how to navigate. and if they've done it in the past or tried to try something in the past and it may have not been so successful, it's because they just don't have that right partner, that right infrastructure, that right platform that's connecting them to the right creator.

44:29And what did it take for you to get it off the ground? So it sounds like you had this extensive tech background, so perhaps you knew some of the tools that you would need to launch the site, but I'm imagining a great many conversations needed to be had and a lot of outreach to get both the creators and to let brands know this is something that you're doing. Yes, so in the beginning, I had a lot of conversations with industry peers, people that I've built relationships with over the years, just gauging what they thought about the concept and thought about the idea. It was really well-received. The technical and the development wasn't so straightforward to start.

45:11But what has been very helpful is these new AI powered tools that you can utilize to build these platforms. So the platform itself is actually completely AI powered. and this has been very exciting because we can very quickly respond to what our brands and our customers are asking for and build them something that just makes us easier for them and easier for the other brands that we're working with. So tell me a little bit more about that. What are you using specifically and how has it made all of that possible and easier it sounds like? One interesting insight that we gained pretty quickly was that influencer marketing and PR agencies are actually experiencing this exact same problem.

45:58So they need to be able to reach interested creators very quickly. They need to be able to reach the right creator very quickly. Many of these companies and many of these teams are managing this through manual lists and gathering data over the years themselves and maintaining that themselves, whereas our platform can very quickly reach an interested vetted number of creators and return a set of applicants to you within two days. So what we've done is we have actually created a package where we can work directly with PR and agencies to return them the list of creators so that they can cut out all of that wasteful time of doing that outreach themselves.

46:52So we manage from brief all the way to content delivery, including the usage rights for that content. And so we also can help you strategize what type of budget, what level of budget to dedicate to this type of marketing. So we're finding that brands definitely do need a little bit of guidance, especially when getting started. Well, and part of it is it's hard to say, okay, we're going to spend$10 ,000 on this influencer marketing campaign and we're going to send them some product, whatever that is. I'm a small fabric company. We're going to send them, right? I'm going to send them 10, 20 yards of fabric to do something nice with.

47:37And then I'm going to see or get back ultimately what? Yes. So you start the process with us from a brief. It's a strategic brief and it's designed for home and interior. So we factor in everything from what type of influencer you're looking to partner with all the way down to aesthetics. So what type of space are you actually looking to have this content created within? Are there any nuances that we should know about in regards to install or shipping timelines or logistics? So right from brief, we then go to our automated outreach, where within two to three days, we will return a set of applicants to you, the creators will apply to your campaign.

48:24And you can see each of those influencers, creators, designers, the space that they would create the content for you in if that's what you'd like, as well as a portfolio. you. So one thing that I always wished for when I was on the brand side was that I could start a partnership with a designer at the beginning of their project, rather than kind of coming in much later in the game. And then once you get to the end of the process, you've selected your creators that you'd like to work with, you send them product or whatever the partnership warrants, and then they create content on your behalf and then we deliver that all to you in a nice beautiful package and you you have the usage rights built in so you know how you can utilize that content utilize it on your channels if you'd like to run paid advertising utilizing that content you know all of that is built in and managed for you the one thing that i think is a huge opportunity for designers specifically is they can build an entirely new revenue stream for their business by entering into these types of brand partnerships and creating content on behalf of brands.

49:38I think the one interesting challenge that we also have been working to solve is the way brands had historically accessed content from designers has typically been through the photographer's usage rights, correct? So when you do discover some content that features your brand and it's a beautiful space and you love the designer and you love what they've done, you typically have to go through some hoops to see if you could utilize that content for yourself. Whereas we are structuring from the beginning, the partnership, the content shooting, all the way to the usage rights, which allows both brand and designer to benefit from that.

50:30Whereas the content that was shot of projects previously was always a little bit harder to navigate, and it has just become even murkier as the world has evolved. Well, I certainly love the idea of this becoming an additional revenue stream for designers, And perhaps that makes it go down easier in some way. The disruption that I think many have felt about how the platform that they seem to most rely on has changed and is asking so much more of them than it was in the past. I understand that completely. I would say it's a hard pill to swallow for a designer. And I know that this is spoken about a lot that I'm a designer, I'm busy.

51:20How can I create content and create this content business on top of that? it is a hard pill to swallow but I do think that it's become so much more prevalent that designers have been hiring social media agencies that's been an interesting shift over the last several years hiring help to assist them with the content creation assist them with shooting more and more content I mean and it just ends up driving their business even further because of that discovery it's not just about brand discovery but it's about discovery for the designer themselves and their business. So I think that the algorithms, as we all know, they shift constantly, they change constantly, they are rewarding the volume of posting.

52:07I think TikTok has been a very big driver of that. And Instagram has, in turn, tried to catch up. Being able to be flexible and adaptable, especially in the social media landscape is, is the only way to win. As you see, the speed of the speed of way of how things happen so quickly um and even respond to cultural trends and things like that is just you know inherently the nature of the world we've been living in um so the way that i think designers really need to look at it is that they have valuable expertise to share with their audiences that in turn can result in these brand partnerships and can result in this added revenue stream for your business.

52:55It's a different way to look at a designer business. I feel like Reels got so good at imitating what TikTok had first built that we talk about TikTok perhaps a bit less. There's still a lot going on on TikTok that is impacting the culture today, no doubt. And I think to your earlier point, people would be surprised at both the age and level of affluence of people that are that are on TikTok. Yes, that's a good point you share. So I believe if I'm not mistaken, the actual average age of the TikTok user is 27, which I think, you know, perception would be 16, right?

53:39Fred Nicolaus:Right 18. There are different benefits to the platforms. One interesting insight that we've seen is that brands are utilizing these types of content partnerships to run advertisements on TikTok. Whereas they don't necessarily have to have a full presence on TikTok. You don't have to be posting all the time. You don't have to be participating in all of the trends, but you can be an advertiser there. So we've seen many more brands come over to TikTok and participate in the creator marketing in that way, which I think has been very effective. And YouTube seems to be what everyone wants the design industry and the home industry to focus on as well.

54:22Are you hearing and thinking a lot about that too? YouTube, yes, absolutely. It's really great for long form content. A lot of our creators will create longer storytelling on YouTube and then chop it up for TikTok and Instagram as secondary channels. The YouTube Shorts has been an exciting one. So something that we advise brands to do is actually syndicate much of the content across Instagram to TikTok and YouTube shorts, which has been a really great thing for the brands as we can step in and give them that strategic advice. We essentially weigh in and say, I would actually, you know, ask the creators to deliver XYZ deliverables across the channels.

55:10You know, they don't have to create a bunch of new content on behalf of you, but they can post that same content across their channels, which just, you know, increases the reach of the content that you've already structured as part of the partnership. So can you imagine, knowing what you do and having had the experience that you've had, can you imagine the high-end home industry in particular? I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around. Can you imagine these brands participating in sort of influencer marketing in a meaningful way, much more than they already are in the coming years and what that would look like?

55:48I do believe that that is where the industry is headed. I don't think that there's a world in which these brands don't participate in this type of marketing. I understand the hesitation from certain brands, but if you also just think about this from the investment standpoint, brands are spending a lot of money, dollars, time, effort on one singular photo shoot. Right. That may or may not, you know, warrant the amount of reach that a few creator marketing posts, real creators, real people, real homes that their product may have, you know, could end up in, in these types of partnerships and could go so much further than a highly produced shoot that costs, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars.

56:38Yes, I think that's a great point. And I think related to that, many companies could benefit from loosening up a little bit. I 100 % agree. I think that you've seen this trend where fashion brands, high-end fashion brands, are participating in this type of marketing. They're loosening the reins a little bit around brand identity and what they're willing to do. and it has been extremely well received. I think home brands could take a page out of the high-end fashion brands book in this case. I completely agree. The Loewe campaign about how no one knows how to pronounce their darn name. I thought that was brilliant.

57:19Loewe does a fabulous job. I would say any brand that's wanting to take some lessons, they should go take a look at Loewe's channels. They do an amazing, amazing job. Couldn't agree more. and that is a great lesson to take from all of this. Monica, thank you so much for making the time. I really enjoyed having you on the show. Thank you so much for having me.

57:46And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here but before we go we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?

57:54Fred Nicolaus:A fun quiz caught my eye, Dennis. The New York Times has this really enjoyable very short little 15-question quiz about 250 years of American home design, which was a good sort of 4th of July weekend little fun thing to do. I just love that the New York Times has a quiz about Elsie DeWolf. So I really enjoy taking it. I recommend people check it out. We'll put it in the show notes. What'd you get? What'd you get out of 15, Dennis? I haven't taken it yet. I know you're so competitive. You can't wait to see what score I get. I know. Well, I got a 14 out of 15, not to flex. Not to brag, but yeah.

58:28Fred Nicolaus:But a little brag. But anyway, I think designers are going to kick out of it. So check it out. What caught you out of this week, Thomas? Definitely have to check that out. Well, so, you know, we were talking about RH England opening in London and the great party pictures from there when suddenly we were bombarded with new party pictures coming out of RH England, that Cotswaltz estate that RH has. And it turns out that the party was in celebration of a new collaboration with, wait for it, the Mercedes AMG Patronus Formula One team. That's right. RH will now be designing the spaces, I guess, at all the Formula One races.

59:10There'll be these beautiful places to escape, relax, and they'll be designed by RH. And RH Hospitality will also be participating in that. And, you know, say what you will, people out there, skeptics, but this actually is a collaboration that I think makes a lot of sense in light of their whole European expansion. This is exactly the kind of partnership you should have. Formula One, absolutely. This is who they should be seen with. What's your take, Fred?

59:38Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, well, I mean, as a Formula One expert, I have a lot of takes here. No, I mean, it does make a lot of sense to me. Formula One is definitely a sport of those at the top of the K-shaped economy, for sure, in Europe. And I think it's a place where the affluent go to hang out. So it makes sense. I actually haven't seen the images for this yet. So I'm going to hop off the pod and check them right out and give you my verdict via Slack or Instagram DM. But it does make sense. And RH has gotten into so much more hospitality stuff. So this makes a ton of sense. It's funny because Warren Schulberg, our retail columnist, wrote a great piece about how RH is entering a new chapter.

1:00:12Fred Nicolaus:I did not think the first page of the new chapter would have the word F1 on it, but interesting and fun to see. I think brand partnerships are going to be a huge part of the new chapter. Okay. So I do think that this is the start of many, and this is, I think, how they're going to play Europe in a big way. We'll see, but go look at those pictures because we missed another great party, friends, sadly. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com.

1:00:43If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.