The Thursday Show: Lindsey Adelman makes a change. Plus: Will Wayfair ever be profitable?

25:20Well, I mean, as you say, I mean, that is a hefty price tag. And I think a lot of showrooms and a lot of companies in general are always very nervous around replacing their internal software. And what is that going to mean? They won't get rid of that fax machine. A big order could come through. You never know. Don't turn it off. Exactly. You laugh, but those fax machines are running in many a showroom I've visited. But so I'm excited, as I say, for them to have some new technology. And maybe when others see it, they will want to help share the cost in all of this and subscribe. But it's always a nerve-wracking process when you're updating your software or you're making some big internal change.

26:08And usually it creates a lot more problems than it answers, at least in the beginning. I hope that won't be the case for this. and my best to the trade tech. And I'll have to go to Atlanta and visit and hear how it's all going. All right, let's jump into real estate listings. This week, design writer David Michon took aim at the blandness of Zillow in the online journal Untappd, writing that real estate listings have messed up the average POV on what home design and decor should be. And, you know, as I got into this article, Fred, I found myself agreeing 100%. What about you? Yeah, what's not to agree with here?

26:51David Michon, of course, the substacker behind ForScale, one of my favorite newsletters, and he's bang on with this analysis. He talks a lot about how, you know, this is a familiar critique, but like Zillow, which has become, as he points out, a national pastime for a lot of Americans, really trains, you know, first of all, people who are staging these homes think, okay, it has to appeal to the widest amount possible. So I'm going to make the decor of the blandest amount possible. And then as you're surfing through all these homes, everything is just so, so samey. And maybe that kind of sameness rubs off on the average consumer and thinks, okay, well, this is what a sellable home looks like.

27:29I'll make my home look like that. And, you know, we, we get a wash of, of sameness that descends over, over the country, like a, like a bland fog. So, you know, David's a really funny writer, and I love this take. I think it's accurate. I think it's interesting and not much to disagree with. What about you? Well, and I think to David's point, where is the passion? Where is the poetry? Where is getting people excited about the new life that they are going to enjoy in this home? David writes about the intimacy of inhabiting a space and stop talking about this as your primary asset and talk about it more about the way that so many designers do, where they get their client excited about the new life you're going to be able to lead when we transform your home.

28:22And that's what I think is missing from real estate listings. As I read through this, I thought, this is a place for magazine editors who are looking to make a change. All those unemployed magazine editors, yes. Exactly. Have them launch. And interestingly, he referenced a few, one of which had been a guest on the show in the past, the co-founders behind Modern House. And we've had Matt Gebert on the show, Matt, who who used to work for World of Interiors and his partner used to work for Wallpaper. So they they came from editorial and they write great copy and use great photography and really create a story around it.

29:04So I think there is a lot to be said for that. Yeah, I think there's definitely an opportunity here. You know, there was a guy I had coffee with a couple months ago named Jason Saft, who's a stager here in New York. And he specializes in doing sort of very like design and decor oriented staging. I think there's like it is a little bit of a niche because you have to have, you know, you have to have the person who has the budget for it. And you have to sort of feel like that's what's going to appeal to a home buyer. I'm sympathetic to home stagers on some level because they obviously want to sell the home.

29:32And if this works, that's why they do it. But I do think there is there's a there's a there's a market for this. and I think it needs to be filled. And, you know, David is, of course, hilariously right in pointing out, you know, the blandness of it all. Another thing that kind of jumped out to me from this article is just sort of interesting. It's like, you know, we think about like, you know, algorithmic culture and what it does to taste. And it's funny because in politics, I feel like, you know, what really does well online is outrage and excitement. And isn't this horrible? And that kind of pushes people to the extremes because it's like, you know, you're forced to take a side and taking a side does well online.

30:06And so that pushes people to the extreme. But when it comes to Zillow and taste, it actually just condenses people to the middle. It's the exact opposite. It centers people around the most bland, unoffensive thing possible. So it's just another interesting example of how algorithms have shifted our taste and culture over the past decade or so. So I thought it was very smart of David to point it out. And very interesting to see if other people like the modern house or like Jason Safter, like this woman, Sam Aronson, I think her name is in L.A., If other people like that pop up and sort of fill this clear need in vibey homeless things, I'm here for it.

30:44I'm here for it as well. And I think clearly it's a huge opportunity. As David points out, Zillow is such a highly trafficked site that clearly America is spending its time looking at houses. So, I mean, there does seem like there's lots of opportunity for more people to come into this space. And I hope after reading this, they will. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including advice from Sean Lowe about client meetings and a list of March's can't-miss design events. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

31:25We're taking a quick break from the show to hear about Hector Finch, who's a proud sponsor of this year's Kips Bay Decorator Showhouse in Palm Beach. Visit February 22nd through March 16th to see how the company collaborated with designers throughout the house to install lighting products in seven rooms. And while you're in town, be sure to also visit the new Benjamin Peterson showroom at 1200 North Dixie Highway in Lake Worth, where you can see a wide range of fixtures from the Hector Finch collection. See the collection online at HectorFinch.com and buy tickets to visit the showhouse at kipsbaydecoratorshowhouse.org.

32:04This season, Jaypore Living introduces their new cozy collection of textured rugs. Bring warmth and style into the home with high-low depths, rich materials, and designs that never go out of style. Whether you're curling up with hot cocoa or sprucing up your space for spring, start with the rug. Start with Jaypore Living. Visit jpoorliving.com to join their trade program and become part of the Jpoor Living family. And now, back to the show.

32:41And we're back. I'm joined now by influential lighting designer, Lindsay Adelman. Lindsay, thank you so much for making the time to join me. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Well, I'm so glad to have you back on the show. I went back over the weekend, listened to the conversation we had a few years ago. And interestingly, you were welcoming at the time what felt like a little bit of a slowdown in the industry. And I felt like, yes, this is a woman who would love for things to slow down and find a little time to think more. subsequently in recent weeks you've sent out a communication saying that you're uh you're making some changes into how you're thinking about the business and the studio tell me a little bit about what's on your mind yeah it was um a very thoughtful decision that i sort of agonized about for a year so um what was happening was really i kept seeing you know in business there's a lot of theories, approaches, philosophies that is all focused around growth and constant growth and plans for growth and numbers to hit and strategies.

34:00And I really was sort of like, why? Like, where are we going? Where's everybody going? Like, if we're bigger, is that better? I think it's a little dangerous to put pressure on growth because it leaves you so vulnerable to making decisions that aren't necessarily based in the same place of why I founded the studio and what drives me and really paying attention to the work I put out there. Um, so this decision of really intentionally kind of downsizing the size of my company and, and how to do that. And so, yeah, it gave me a lot of thought as to these collections that are well established and have really rational assembly systems to take that out of house.

34:55and it took a while to find the right partner to do that. And I'm so happy with who we've connected with to do that. So now what I intended to do is coming true, which is really clearing space for a lot of the work I missed doing. I'm curious the hands-on nature of what you do. When I watch some of the videos on your site and I see the look on your face when you're actually blowing or creating or even just hanging something that you're excited to see how it's finally going to look. I was worried was this growth that we're talking about pulling you away from those moments.

35:48Structures changed a little bit. And so we have two locations, one in Manhattan and one in Brooklyn, which we've had for a very long time, but we've really activated the Brooklyn space more for a certain type of production work as we enter this two year transition with this other company to take on a lot of the production. And so in the Manhattan studio, we're really setting it up to support this more sculptural work, which I happen to be a highly sensitive person for better or for worse. And so the environment makes a big difference to me and the number of people in it really affects how I work.

36:32I tend to have a hard time with just lots of energy from other people around me. And so kind of creating a more intimate environment has helped me develop new work. And my process, like when I drop in deep to try new things, there has to be space for a period of time where you're creating things that are, you could say failures, but they're important, critical steps along the way. and that can be my private practice that I believe in. Sometimes when there's a lot of people or a lot of different types of activities like more kind of office-y activities or more sort of like production activities it can feel a bit out of sync or tone deaf to get into that mode that's sort of where you lose the sense a sense of time and it's really private and intimate and I can't control it you know like the process for me is one of you know sort of mysterious to me of like where ideas come from and and why I feel so compelled to realize them and I trust that space I've cultivated that space for 20 years and it's sort of I know it and it's it seems very much it's the place like I do everything else to get back to that space essentially um because it's such a release and relief, I guess.

38:03And so that's what I'm supporting. It's interesting because sometimes it feels like maybe self-involved and then other times it feels more like an offering or service. Like sometimes it feels like I'm just kind of like doing what was handed to me to pass along. It probably sounds a little bit out there, but that's what's driving me now. So earlier when you talked about how you agonized over this decision or how to implement it for a year, what was the agony? What were you struggling with to let you return to this studio model that you were longing for. Yeah, having this sometimes annoying quality of being highly sensitive.

38:58I was, I would say, terrified of sharing news that might not be what everybody wants to hear and just painfully aware of sort of disrupting an employee's career path, you know, flow, expectations. And, you know, I realized now that can get very overblown in my head because it was not terrifying when it came down to it. And the rise of support around me was touching and really fueled the kind of power and momentum of this change in super surprising ways. And so it was a great lesson for me, I guess. I think that's what was agonizing is I felt like I would be causing a disruption and potentially just disappointment in others.

40:01And so I've learned so much from that to not put things off if your gut is just start, you know, it starts to whisper and then it starts to yell and you're you you gotta follow it and and not try to analyze it and not go like 10 steps ahead just really like just listen to it and i i think probably most people like creative people are people that operate in this way of like very similar experiences. Yeah, it's like joy. I mean, that's it. It's like my utopia, like to create, to walk in and just like have art supplies there. Like, that's it. And so when we am connecting it back to like business growth, like that's, my drivers are just different.

40:53Like if I want to walk into a room with like shelves of fresh art supplies, it's just a different driver. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think it's because, well, it sounds so simple, but I think ultimately, just as human, especially right now, we're supposed to feel good. So when you can figure out the stuff that actually brings out the best in you or makes you feel like you're just in the zone, in the right place at the right time, and that's like the best we can do really because it ends up benefiting more than we can see it ripples out and you know the right people and things are sort of drawn to you and I think it's connected to like there's more you can offer the world to really if you're kind of doing what you're most into it's it kind of works out that way I think well and you've had the benefit of this incredible success.

41:53You've had celebrities adoring your product. I was just recently with Sheila Bridges at the New York School of Interior Design. We were looking at your light fixture in the home of the former vice president, Kamala Harris. And she was so thrilled that your lighting could be included in that project. Me too. What an honor. Yeah. So you, unlike many who toil in obscurity, found success. Yes. And as success often does, perhaps it swept you away a bit. Yes. Right? To the point that you may have woken up like David Byrne in his big white suit saying, this is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife.

42:43Wait a second. You woke up and realized how far removed you had gotten from, as you were saying, what really excites you about what you do. Yeah, that's a lot of it. And what I really appreciate is the stability and solid foundation that the company has provided me and my employees. And without that stability, I wouldn't be able to take a risk with more sculptural personal work. I wouldn't be able to. It's kind of afforded me to make mistakes, to make work that's pretty ugly for a minute until it turns into something that's better. And the body of work, like the collections that I've made for our amazing client base, is still something that I believe in so much.

43:42Anything that I don't believe in has been edited out. And so if they were just like, I was into it for a minute and then not for like ever. But that's ideal. It's almost like two divisions, you could say. And yeah, it takes a minute to figure that out and set it up. So take me through the mechanics. It sounds as though you've mapped out sort of a two-year plan for this transition. What needs to happen? It sounds like you're passing off some of the production to now a trusted partner. Yeah. Essentially, it's a very rational plan where we have just mapped out one collection at a time. And so my team is able to visit them and train their assembly team and their team is able to visit us, take notes on how each builder sets up their bench and what tools we have and the order of events and, you know, ergonomic considerations.

44:54Like we actually like hang all the work from tracks on the ceiling when we build them. We don't build like on a surface. And so it's exactly as it would be in a space. And the place that we're working with, unlike us who work with a whole network of suppliers outside of studio who do machining, finishing, et cetera, there's like a hundred of them that we work with. And this place, they do it all under one roof. So, you know, you can like envision they're just receiving like bar stock of raw brass. And from that, they then finished like a wired chandelier that goes out the door. It's really different.

45:36So they do all the processes in-house. And the end result that you're hoping for is what? Well, first is the integrity of the work, that it's built in the same original spirit. You could say the same level of craftsmanship and care, quality checking. And yeah, the company that we work with has the same values and priorities that we do. And that was really important and why it took a while to find the right place. And to really kind of not maintain a whole workforce that's handling that in-house, which you can imagine all of the details, managing all of the different suppliers, all of the different fixtures.

46:25Each one has a different assembly process and kit of parts. All of the wrapping, the shipping, the labeling alone is huge. And so we're not going to be doing that in-house. It's a big difference. It's a really different model of a company. And, you know, frankly, a lot of companies start out with this good idea. I didn't, but that's cool. No, I think the benefits of us doing it in-house for so many years is it's this opportunity to continue to evolve things. So like, you know, the team is really smart, really creative. So if they're finding a way that's a better way to build something or hang something or balance something, their ideas make it through to inform and shape how it's made.

47:15And that's been so major. So at this point of now transitioning it to another place, it's a well-oiled machine and system. And yeah, I think everything happens at the right time. Well, and I mean, on the one hand, I can imagine how nervous one would be trying to pass along this painstakingly precise process that you've built over all these years. But at the same time, I can imagine this huge sense of relief of thinking one day someone else is going to be managing all of that, right? Yeah, yeah. It's a nice feeling. But truthfully, the management team underneath me, they're the specialists. And everything is still made in America.

48:02So it's just a plane ride away. And it's been, I wouldn't say nerve wracking because we're doing this so mindfully and slowly, like we're leaving ourselves a lot of space for attention to detail. And my team is really dedicated to this. So yeah, I'm really just happy that I figured out a way to support the work living on and that I didn't, you know, there's other tempting concepts like selling the business. And did you entertain that at all? That thought? I entertained it. I entertained it. And there was a good case built for it. And I unfortunately kept listening to my annoying gut instinct that this was not for me, that that wasn't the route for me.

48:56Without getting into specific, let's just say that it was a really attractive, viable option. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So it was there. That was a choice and a road, a path not taken. Yeah. It ended up being a really personal decision. And again, I received a lot of support. It feels really, even though change is hard, it feels natural. So you're also, I noticed, on an Instagram hiatus. I don't know if it is related to where you are in your head or what's going on, but tell me about that. Yeah, I think it is related. I was feeling a bit put off about some aspects of what Instagram has become in terms of quite commercial.

49:48And I wasn't liking how the algorithms and the sort of forces behind it were intervening with what I wanted to see. I kept seeing things pop up that I didn't choose, right? To pop up. It wasn't like that at the beginning. And then I was also sort of seeing a bit of pressure. And I think all of the cliches are true in terms of people showing a certain part of their life. And it's, of course, not the full story, right? And then I found myself sort of falling into that as well. And I just thought, I'm not sure I want to do that. And I just noticed it was bringing this sort of like low level of like anxiety or distraction to me and a bit of changing my mindset.

50:49So with like the minute before I wasn't feeling pretty good about my situation. And then I would go on there and like five minutes later, I'm like, well, I'm all of a sudden now thinking about stuff that I missed or, you know, whatever, like, oh, I wish I was people I wish I was still connected to or like things I kind of wished I was a part of or like, oh God, I should be making more of an effort. Look at that person's really going for it. And it's like pretty fantastic. Like maybe, you know, and I was like, wait, five minutes ago, I was good. Like I didn't really, and I, and I just like a certain phase of life that I'm in right now.

51:28I just thought, I'm not sure this is really working for us. And then my business doesn't operate through Instagram. You know, we, that's not really how we, we sell things that we sell things mainly through a lot of other modes. And my current thinking, this could change in an hour, but since we're here, my current thinking is that it would be quite interesting to put a type of communication out there that talks about how to connect with us, how to see us, and to make it worth their time to come, you know, because we haven't spilled the beans. They're not getting a preview of everything. Right.

52:14And to make the IRL experience a bit more special. So whether it's at studio or whether it's at an exhibition or an installation somewhere or a talk somewhere or whatever it is, what if we kind of embrace the opposite of Instagram where it's a bit, again, like embracing mystery, embracing a certain elusiveness, you could say. and really like leaning into delivering when people do show up and like an element of, yeah, surprise and unexpected and then like making an effort like the people that I have seen on there that I miss or don't see enough or want to be reconnected to or I can do that, you know, like I can see them, I can hang out, I can go over, I can do studio visits, I can invite people to my studio.

53:14It sounds so basic, but I'm just really craving that. And also Instagram, if you do it well, it's pretty time consuming. You really need support. People that do it well, it's an incredible editorial experience. and I just thought, let me just take a second to be thoughtful about how I might want to approach this again. I will mention that another factor was there's been a number of highly distressing things in the news. And one topic was what was feeling like a battle for our attention and that our attention is currency and it really affected me and i thought i want to be careful not only with my own attention but with others attention and what i'm doing with it and sort of a big question but one that i am reflecting on yeah so it it seems like a time out of which you really don't know what's going to come.

54:28Right? I mean, you may have thoughts and you may, perhaps there are creative ideas that are racing through your mind as we speak. Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the moment in terms of my work, I'm in deep with preparing for a show at the Future Perfect, which will be in May. Yes. And that will be the first body of work to emerge out of this new phase. And it does look distinctly different, even though there are threads throughout all of my work. And I think narratives that really run through much of it. But I'm really excited to put this work out in the world. and it did come out of this place that is a bit more elusive or the drivers are different than designing a collection that's meant to be yeah like specked in a certain way or reach a wide audience this work I think is a different way of designing and it's really coming it's you could say like a craving or like an urge or something like that in me and it's been I'm just like really going for it.

55:47I'm putting a lot of energy into it. That's pretty soon. That's coming up in May. I'm deep into that. How does that fit in with what you're working on with the transformation of the studio? Yeah, it fits in because it's the realization of what I made space for. and it's the first body of work and I expect it'll keep building upon itself. Yeah. So it's pretty quick really. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So things have already come from this process in other words. A hundred percent. Okay. Well, that's exciting. So, so future perfect in May? Yes. In New York. Yeah. In New York. Okay. Well, I'm, I'm excited to come and see that and, and we look forward to seeing that.

56:34And I'm, I'm so delighted to get to talk with you and I, And I really appreciate you making this time bright and early this morning. Me too. Thanks, Dennis. It's been really fun.

56:48And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred? Well, earlier you were talking about how Lowe's and Home Depot were a little bit skeptical around the renovation boom. I actually think there are signs out there in the marketplace of this uptake in renovations. And one of them is all these brands really going in on developing a cabinetry line. We got the news just the other day that Florin Decor, a company we don't talk about that much, but really a giant company on a tear, just introduced a cabinetry line.

57:22And I do think companies like Isla Porter, the sort of AI-powered cabinetry design company, are rushing to fill this need between the super budget kitchen cabinetry and the super high-end kitchens. And I think that is really an area for growth. I was just in Ikea a couple weeks ago, and I noticed their cabinetry and closet sections are three times bigger than they used to be. So I do think there are little drips and drabs of people pivoting to be more about renovations. And I think, you know, filling that white space and cabinetry, I think, has been there for a long time. And I think it's slowly getting filled bit by bit.

57:56So excited to see what people do in that space. What caught you out of this week, Dennis? A couple of things caught my eye. One, yesterday I had the pleasure of being in the new Schumacher space at the New York Design Center. Yes, indeed. More, once again, another company coming to 200 Lex. And it was a sharp looking space. They partnered with designer David Fraser and created a chic space with furniture and art and fabric. And they wanted to show some things that people might not realize are in their line or that people might have forgotten about. And I think they did a beautiful job of pulling it all together.

58:40Cool. Can't wait to visit. It's ready for visitors now. So pop in. The other thing that caught my eye, interestingly enough, we've been talking a lot recently and talked about it in the conversation with Stephanie about the rising costs in our space and how dramatically some of the costs have gone up. The designer Brian Paquette shared a story this past weekend on his Instagram where he talks about how every year he goes through this exercise of pricing one of his previous projects to see how the market is looking right now. And he took a project from 2023, which was a furnishings only project for a 3 ,200 square foot home.

59:26And he said, honestly, it wasn't even our super high end. And the cost at the time, back in 23, was$378 ,000. And he went through the exercise of pricing out what that would be today. And today, we've cost$502 ,000. So that's about a 30 % jump in price in just not even two years, honestly. And he said, and that doesn't, we're not even raising our prices. It's just the price of all those materials. So, I mean, it just shows how dramatically prices have risen in our space, far more than what we talk about with the consumer price index or some of the numbers that we talk about on the show. Pretty dramatic.

1:00:11Yeah, it's wild. Those numbers just, when you see it in real dollar numbers and it's taken out of the, oh, prices are going up, but it's like you really see the dollar sign in front of it, it's absolutely wild. I know everyone out there is dealing with it. So we don't have the solution, but we will continue to report on it. No, it continues to be a challenge for the industry and one I'm sure we'll be talking about a lot more. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com.

1:00:43If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.