The Thursday Show: The new rules of real estate. Plus: Kaiyo shutters

24:22Okay, I'm joined by New York Times real estate reporter Deborah Kamen. Debra, it is great to have you back on the show. It's so good to be back. Thank you for having me. Well, I'm delighted to have an excuse to talk with you. I've been looking to find a way, and now we have it because there's big changes coming to the real estate industry. Before we dive into some of those changes, I would love for you to take us back and tell us how we got here. You wrote the stories. You broke a lot of the stories about the National Association of Realtors and this enormous class action lawsuit. Tell us quickly how we got here and some of the history.

25:03Sure. So Dennis, to talk about where we are now, we have to go back in time about six months. Without a doubt, 2024 has been the most extreme chaotic year for real estate, probably in 100 years. And that's because on March 15th of this past year, the National Association of Realtors, which is the trade organization that essentially sets the rules and regulations for how most real estate agents transact business, they agreed to a landmark settlement. And I was the reporter who broke that story. And the settlement, in addition to having a cash amount of$418 million, involved a very significant change to two of their key rules.

25:43And those rules are related to how real estate agents charge for their services. So we broke the story in March of those rules about to change. And now in August, those rule changes have gotten into effect. So we've kind of had this six month period of holding our breath. And now we get to see what happens when we exhale and the industry actually has to do what they said they're going to do. And it's been pretty chaotic to tell you the truth. Well, it seems that way. And as you and I have discussed, we talked to a lot of people who are very divided about how they feel about all of this. And there seems to be.

26:18You wrote a piece that is suggesting realtors resist changes to commissions. We didn't suggest it. We said it. Well, exactly. So let's explain the whole commission structure and what was at the heart of the lawsuit regarding the National Association of Realtors and these commission fees that were being paid by the sellers. But let's get into that a little bit. Sure. So essentially, when you sell a home in the United States, Tradition has long held that the seller pays a fee to their agent, and then that fee is actually then split with the agent for the buyer. So if you're buying a home, you probably don't have to pay your real estate agent.

26:57If you're selling a home, it's anticipated that you will pay a fee of commission. And commissions have always been technically negotiable, but it's really held for a long time that commissions in the U.S. have hovered around 5 % or 6%. So 2.5 % is going to the seller's agent and 2.5 % is going to the buyer's agent. And if you are selling a home that costs a million dollars, that's a lot of money. That's$60 ,000 that's taken from the sale and gone to the agents to pay them for the work that they're doing. But the heart of these lawsuits that were settled in March really centered on the idea that even though commissions technically are negotiable, they really weren't negotiable in practice, at least for the people who brought the lawsuit.

27:38And even if they were negotiable, people were not aware of what they were paying or they weren't aware that they could have paid less or they could have asked to pay less. And they also weren't aware that they were required to pay the buyer when they were the seller. So after this lawsuit, one of the key rules that allowed real estate agents to really talk to each other in private about what commissions were going to be was taken away. And now the industry is struggling to figure out how buyer's agents are going to be paid and how seller's agents and buyer's agents are going to talk to each other about what commission is going to be and who's going to bear the brunt of paying it.

28:10And the short answer is we don't know. The short answer, it is the Wild West. So after the settlement, very clear rules were outlined and there were documents created that people had to now sign if they were going to go out with a buyer's agent and look at a home. So that's one of the really significant changes that if you're shopping for a home in the US now, it's probably going to come as a shock. We are not used in the United States to being forced to sign something before we browse. Can you imagine going to a car dealership? You want to take a car for a spin. And before you can drive it around the block, you have to sign a piece of paper saying, I'm only going to work with this dealership.

28:50Or if I buy from this dealership, I promise to pay X. But because of these rule changes and because there's such little clarity now over how buyers agents are going to be paid, one of the changes that has been rolled out is now required by the National Association of Realtors is agents who belong to that group have to require their buyers to sign something called a buyer's agreement before they go house hunting. So even if you want to just go look at a home you saw on Zillow or on StreetEasy and you connect with the agent, you have to sign a document that's laying out some key terms and really defining what your relationship with that agent is going to be before you go shop for a home.

29:24And for a lot of buyers, that's very uncomfortable and coming as a shock. And for a lot of agents, there's a lot of confusion over how to explain to buyers why this is happening and what these forms really require them to agree to do. The other is the way that people are discussing what commissions are going to be and the venue that they're using for those discussions because some of them are no longer allowed from the settlement. Right. So in the past, one way that this was sort of quietly communicated was it was included in the listing that they would pay the fee, right, for the buyer's agent.

29:58And now they can't communicate that in the same way? So the majority of home listings in the U.S. exist on these sites called multiple listing sites. and multiple listing sites are generally owned and operated by local realtor associations. So we have the National Association of Realtors. They're the national group. But you also at the state and city level have smaller realtor associations. And the rub here that has really been at the issue of these lawsuits is that if you want to belong to your local realtor association so that you can access these databases and see homes listed, there's something called the three-way agreement.

30:34So to belong to your local association, you have to also belong to your state association and your federal association. So I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. So if I'm a realtor and I want to belong to the Cleveland Association of Realtors, I have to also join the Ohio Association of Realtors and the National Association of Realtors. And I have to pay dues to all three. And only that way do I then qualify to have access to these MLSs so I can see houses that are for sale so I can work as a real estate agent. And on these databases, there was always a field where the realtor could fill in what the percentage commission is.

31:06So if you're selling a home, you can say, I'm selling this house. And any buyer's agent who brings a buyer is going to get 2.5 % commission or 3 % commission. And the lawsuit essentially said that because people were required to belong to these groups, and they were talking about commission privately in these fields, the information wasn't clear to buyers, there wasn't competition, so they can no longer have those conversations on MLSs. So a lot of real estate agents are now saying, okay, so we can't talk about what the commission is going to be in these databases, are there other ways that we can talk about it?

31:37Because how am I supposed to find a buyer for this home if I don't offer commission? So some are even saying kind of crazy ideas. I reported on one story that I read on Facebook where real estate agents are saying, okay, I can't advertise 3 % commission on the MLS, but in the photos that I put online about this house, I'm going to show a beautiful photo of the kitchen with three cookies on the kitchen table. And that will be a symbol that a buyer's agent is going to get 3%. And someone else told me that they're hearing stories of agents who are superimposing movies on the TV in the living room in the photos, and only movies that have three in the title.

32:11So like the TV in the living room will say the three amigos, it'll have, you know, just the opening credits. And that will be a signal to real estate agents that they'll collect 3 % commission. So clearly, that is not in the spirit of this settlement. And if the whole idea of the settlement was to make it so we don't have these backdoor deals between real estate agents, taking it from one venue and moving it to another may not follow the rules of the settlement, even if it doesn't break the actual written rules of the document. And that's where a lot of the tension is right now. The attorneys who argued this lawsuit have said, this is absolutely in violation of the settlement.

32:47The National Association of Realtors has said, no, it's not. All the settlement says is we can't talk about commission on these MLSs. So we're not even clear yet how the rules can be bent and if they can be bent and what will happen if people continue to bend them. So is part of the problem that the outcome of all of this, there weren't clear percentages established? It sounded like they wanted to leave it to the market and because market forces were just going to address this. Is that part of the challenge in all of this? Is that they didn't just come out and say from now on, it'll just be 2 % that you pay to a buyer's agent and that's the law.

33:23Yes. Part of the problem is that they said what you can't do, but they didn't say what you can do. So they took away the key function of the real estate industry when it comes to agents paying each other. And real estate agents, like anyone else, deserve to be paid for their work. And if you take away the way that they communicate payment, they're going to try to figure out another way to get paid because this is their livelihood. But the settlement basically went halfway. It said, these are the things that are not allowed. and then someone needs to come in and say, okay, well, this is how we're going to do business.

33:53Whether that is the individual brokerages who set rules for their agents or it's the National Association of Realtors or it's individual agents who work as independent contractors, they could decide for themselves, this is what I'm going to charge. All that is fine, but none of those rules have been defined yet. So, I mean, I really think what's going to play out is we're going to see, are buyers and sellers willing to keep paying 6 % commission if there's an opportunity for more competition in the market? Or are they going to say, hey, I don't want to sign these buyer agreements. I don't want to pay a buyer's agent.

34:21And that's going to open the door for someone with an alternative business model to really come in and thrive potentially for the first time. Which is what many, it sounds like in the real estate industry thought would be one of the outcomes, that perhaps some new player would come up with a model that made sense to everyone and find their way into the marketplace and establish this new dominance, if you will. But that could take quite a bit of time. And in the meantime, we're having a hard enough time, Deborah, in the housing industry right now. We're challenged with existing home sales and low inventory, as you know so well.

35:01Does this further complicate all of that? And does it just make it even harder for this industry that's trying to climb their way out of what was such a challenging year last year and continues to be this year. It definitely does. And I also think in many ways, it removes the focus from the conversation because real estate agents, they're scrambling and they're scared and they're really focused on how they're going to get paid, understandably. But as a result, agents who might have been more willing to work with first-time buyers or willing to work for less or people who are thought leaders in the real estate industry who could potentially bring forth some new solutions to the housing crisis, a lot of that energy is being shifted to deal with this crisis, which is the industry itself is in disarray.

35:47And one potential really damaging drawback of this settlement, if it's not managed properly, is how this will affect first-time homebuyers and also buyers of color and buyers from disadvantaged communities who are less likely to be able to buy a home, much more likely to be a first-time buyer. And when you are just working so hard to scrape together your down payment for your first home, realizing at the end of it that you now have to pay potentially 3 % commission to your buyer's agent because you signed a form that maybe you didn't really know what it said because you were confused or you were just trying to find a home.

36:20And that is a fee that used to be covered by a seller, but now there's been this settlement. For many first-time buyers, a lot of people in the industry are saying this is going to hurt them. Now, there's a flip side to that conversation. And many people who are for this settlement have said that's actually not the case. And in the long run, this will make the entire system of buying a home more equitable and more transparent and potentially may also lower home prices across the board because when sellers thought they had to pay 5 % or 6 % commission to their agent, home prices were inflated as a result to kind of absorb the shock of that additional cost.

36:57So if those commissions come down and sellers no longer have to pay the buyer's agent, the price of the home that the buyer is purchasing will also go down. So we really don't know how this is going to play out. What we do know is right now, there's a lot of question marks, and agents in particular feel that they don't know how they're going to get paid, and they don't know how to move forward. The guidance has not been clear. So it's very chaotic. Let's take a step back for a moment. So the National Association of Realtors loses this enormous case, much to their great surprise. They never thought they were going to lose this case, right?

37:31They were on their back foot for various reasons. They were facing some internal turmoil and some leadership changes, to put it kindly. And we should remind listeners of the enormity of this organization. They're still claiming 1.5 million members, though I'm guessing that number might have come down in recent months. they once had a billion dollars in their coffers. I don't know how this huge settlement has affected all of that, but this was the organization that was setting the tone, setting the rules for all of this. And now their lack of leadership seems to be part of what's creating this chaos in the industry.

38:14Is that how you read it? I think it is fair to say there are many people who believe that the lack of leadership contributed to NAR losing this lawsuit and then they had to roll out to the settlement. So just to give your listeners a quick refresher, they're now on their third president in less than a year and their second CEO. So there's been a lot of changes at the top. And yes, NAR even now still is one of the most powerful organizations in the United States. They do still say they have 1.5 million members. Their most recent tax filings, I believe, still put them at a billion dollars, although I would have to check that.

38:47And in addition to being the largest trade organization in the United States, they also run a very massive, very influential political action committee called the Realtor Party. And the Realtor Party has state and local subsidiaries as well. So just like we have realtor associations at the federal level, the state level, and the city level, we also have realtor PACs at all of those levels. And all of those smaller groups are fundraising, they are lobbying, there is a lot of power and a lot of just boots on the ground behind this organization. So the fact that this has been so chaotic is surprising for many people.

39:24And there's a lot of anger among real estate agents because, again, remember, to access the home listings that you need to access to sell homes, you have to be a member in most places. That's how the rules are written. And if you're required to pay dues and you're required to be a member, but then your involvement in this organization then consigns you two rules that prevent you from earning a commission, you feel as if your hands are tied behind your back and you can't do your job one way, but you can't get paid for doing your job another way. So there needs to be some sort of new clear path forward that has yet to really be defined.

39:58So that's the biggest issue is there is a lack of clarity about the new path forward. And that's what I was hoping you were going to provide that clarity for us today, Debra. I was hoping having you on the show, you would just be able to explain the new world order in the real estate industry. But it seems the problem is there isn't yet an established new set of rules and commission structures specifically. NAR, I am sure if you were to ask them, would say the path forward is very clear and we can operate just as we always did. You simply cannot make offers of commission on the multiple listing site.

40:36I mean, I asked their head of legal this exact question in an interview right before my reporting about the rule changes, and she said, we intentionally carved out in the settlement language that preserves the right for us to talk about offers of commission on venues other than these MLSs. Now, the confusion comes because I then went and spoke to the lawyers who argued this case in court, and they said, no, we actually will come after you if you try to betray the settlement in other ways. And in addition, the Department of Justice has been investigating NAR back and forth for years. And in June was able to reopen a massive investigation, also looking at antitrust violations, which just means anti-competitive behavior at NAR.

41:18And this is precisely the sort of behavior that they are currently investigating. So you do have two realities that are at odds with each other. You have NAR saying, it's business as usual. We're fine. We just can't use the MLS, but you can call up the listing agent. You can put three cookies on the table. You can do whatever you want to figure out what the commission is. Everything's okay. But then you have other very powerful entities saying, we are still looking into this. We are not done. And we plan to take people to court if they continue to operate in ways that we see are anti-competitive.

41:48There's also a third layer of complication, which is, as a reporter, something I'm definitely watching. And that is that we are now seeing lawsuits against NAR from real estate agents. There have been four in the past couple weeks. One of them was filed and then removed, but I presume it may be refiled later. And all of them are from either companies or individual real estate agents accusing NAR of anti-competitive practices and saying that the rules that exist have stifled competition or in some other way prevented them from doing their job properly. So it's very interesting that in In addition to having home buyers and home sellers file complaints, you now have the very people who belong to this organization saying, wait a minute, we're also being screwed and we're also not okay with this.

42:36And if the momentum continues and more and more lawsuits are filed, every single lawsuit takes manpower. It takes time. It takes money. It's a distraction for the organization. It's something they have to deal with. And it prevents them from helping to be a partner in solving the housing crisis, which is arguably the greatest problem facing the U.S. economy right now. Looking at the winners and losers, when we first got this announcement about this great big settlement, it seemed like, oh, happy day for the seller, right? Minimally, they were a winner, clearly defined. They were no longer going to have to pay the buyer agent commissions, or so we thought, even though it seems that in the months since then, everybody seems to suggest, well, it's probably in their best interest to pay the buyer's commission anyway, because you want some good buyer's agents coming and showing your property.

43:25So I mean, it seems - Well, yes, but that's steering. I mean, that's true. But that practice that requires you to have a buyer's agent, to have the buyer's agent to be paid, really is unethical. I mean, we shouldn't be allowing a system that allows agents to steer clients to homes where they're going to make more money. Steering is a real problem in the real estate industry. We see it with commissions. In the past, we saw it with issues like race. And you don't want real estate agents working in their benefit, which means steering clients to homes that they want them to buy. You want the agent who's a fiduciary working for your benefit because you're paying them.

43:58So if they are being incentivized to show you certain homes based on the amount of commission that has been communicated, be it on a database or through some back channel, that's problematic because then they're not showing you the home that's best for you and the one that you actually should be in. So many of the highly established real estate agents, and I think of Leonard Steinberg, for example, from Compass, who was quite outspoken about all of this in his whatever weekly videos that he puts out, saying that the press has it all wrong about all of this and that everything that we've been saying is inaccurate and really nothing is going to change, nor should it, because all of these fees make sense.

44:37All of these commissions make perfect sense. And if you want good service, and as you were saying, if you want someone looking out for your best interests, then you have to pay them accordingly. And so he and others like him have suggested that it is naive to think this is really going to lower the cost of homes or that it's really going to change the industry all that much and the dust will settle and things will look very much the same. And I think looking at some of the articles that you've written, there were economists said, if you looked at the commission structures, it ended up being 5.73 % or something, if I recall.

45:14And so that's pretty close to 3 % on each side. And he and others, I gather, don't really think that's going to change in a meaningful way. I think it sounds like a lot of people you talk to think it is likely to change, particularly on the buyer's side. I mean, real estate agents are experts at selling real estate, but they are not economists. And what it really boils down to is what consumers are willing to accept. So the commission structure stayed the way it was for so long because there were rules in place that made it so that consumers, based on this lawsuit, did not really know that there was another way.

45:50We now know that there's another way. It was proven in court. The judge agreed. The DOJ also agrees. They're looking into it. And now the rules have to change. How significantly those rules change and how much consumers demand based on commission, based on percentages, those prices go down remains to be seen. but it's really going to be what are people willing to pay? It's going to be up to the American home buyer and the American home seller. If they think a real estate agent is worth 3 % commission, they will continue paying it. If they feel that they don't, they will say, I want to pay less.

46:24And someone is going to say, hey, I have a business model that now I can offer because these rules have changed. Work with me. That's competition. That's the whole point of this lawsuit. So I do think it's a bit naive to say nothing's going to possibly change because we know how markets work. And when competition enters, you have people offering new models of service. It sounds like you think someone is going to come along and create a new model around this that will bring downward pressure. I mean, I will tell you that one of these four lawsuits that I mentioned a few minutes ago that has been brought against NAR was brought by a flat fee commission brokerage who tried to offer a new model.

47:03And they were stopped from doing that because of agents talking to each other on these multiple listing sites saying don't work with agents who work for this company. So the lawsuit alleges that they used these databases through these backdoor channels to make sure that this new model could not enter the market. That sort of communication is now not allowed. So it would be naive to presume that that sort of situation is not going to play out again, but now with a different result. And I think that there is a lot of anger at the media over this story. And we don't always get it right, for sure.

47:37But a lot of that anger is not so much about the fact that the story has been reported wrong. It's that the story has been reported. Buying a home is a very emotional, confusing, stressful experience. And as a home buyer or a home seller, I've bought and sold a home. You are handed stacks and sacks of paper, and they are filled with all sorts of information. And it's really easy to just say, hey, I like my agent. I trust them. Whatever you say is fine. But as a result, you're signing on to things that you may not realize you're signing on to. So there is a lack of education among consumers. The reporting on this story is changing that and agents are understandably angry about it.

48:14That doesn't mean that what we're reporting is false. It simply means that they don't like what we're reporting. That's not always the same thing. No, I'm sure. And the likelihood of you being invited to the holiday party at the National Association of Realty, I'm guessing is slim, Debra. So I don't want you to - No comment. I don't want you to block out that date thinking that they're going to invite you at the last minute because I really don't think they are. But I'm wondering to that point, I'm wondering what we think becomes of that organization. It seems as if much has to change for them.

48:48Yes? It would be surprising to me if they are able to survive the way that they always were. I don't think NAR is going away. I really don't. And I also want to be really clear that I think NAR is a very important organization and they serve an extremely useful, necessary purpose for the housing industry. But I have spoken to many, many sources who talk about a lack of focus among some members of leadership, and that's actually what led to the sexual harassment allegations that I reported on last year. And a sense that there's been so much chaos and confusion that actual solutions for problems are not always being brought to the forefront.

49:26You know, I think for many agents in the rollout of the communication about these changes to the commission structure, NAR has done a really admirable job trying to educate people. They've had webinars, they've put out literature, they've held trainings, and yet so many agents still have no idea what to do. And there's so much lack of clarity and so much confusion. So something is being lost between the idea and the execution. And this is an organization that is really very expensive and very powerful. And they could do better, according to many people that I've spoken to, in terms of serving as a real advocate for the agents on the ground.

50:03That's at least what I'm hearing from sources that I'm talking to. So the answer to can you spell out the specific changes that are taking place starting August 17th is that no, no, we can't right now, really, because there isn't uniformity or there isn't agreement about what these changes really, really are, it sounds like. There's two big things. The one thing is if you're shopping for a home, you're going to have to sign a buyer's agreement. What that agreement says and how often you have to sign the agreement, completely up in the air. It might be that with the agent that you talk to, you have to sign a new buyer's agreement at every single house you go to.

50:34So if you ride around with them in their Chevy and go to seven houses, you're signing seven agreements. With a different agent, a different brokerage, a different state, you might be signing an agreement that's valid for 30 days or applies to all the homes in a certain zip code. So even the language of what these agreements say is not uniform. The other thing is that if you're selling a home, your agent cannot communicate an offer of commission to a buyer's agent on the multiple listing service. That we know for sure. whether or not they're going to try to communicate an offer of commission another way and what that amount is going to be, still not clear.

51:09Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes it. It makes good sense. Okay. Thank you so much for making the time to talk with us. I really appreciate it. It's great to see you again. Same. It's always so fun to talk to you. This was fascinating. Thank you for hearing me out.

51:25And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, We'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? A little bit of archaeology caught my eye this week. You know, it has been, as we were talking about earlier, a little bit of a heavy week. So I thought it would be fun to talk about something a little bit more lighthearted. But a few weeks ago, a clay tablet was found in Turkey, 3 ,500 years old, very old record. And archaeologists apparently discovered that it was a furniture receipt.

51:54I don't know if you saw that. This was one of those stories that pinged around social media a little bit, but I just loved how Indiana Jones goes into the temple to uncover this tablet and it's three wooden chairs, a table, a stool. Yeah, no, I did see that. I thought that was so great. I'm wondering what the memories that people will dig up of the design industry. Now we have some insight into that. Yes, exactly. The argument between the designer and the client over the markup on that stool was lost to history, unfortunately. But maybe a future archaeologist will uncover the mystery. What caught your eye this week, Dennis?

52:31There were a couple of things that were interesting to me. One was the cover of the real estate section in The Times had a story about why frames cost so much. And I'm always a fan of these service pieces. And I think it's great for people to learn about why it cost$3 ,000 for you to run down to Jay Pocker and get that picture from your vacation framed with multiple mats. And but it was I know so many designers have talked to me about this issue that clients just have no idea to have something properly framed, both how worth it is to spend the money, but also how much it is going to cost you and how often they experience sticker shock when they when they tell them how much a real framing job costs.

53:21But in Bronxville, there are literally five framing places as you just walk the main street. So, I mean, framing is a big business and clearly seems to be doing well. Yeah. And we should just quickly scaffold for listeners that Jay Parker is like the Upper East Side's hoity-toity-est framing shop. This is a place where if you want to spend a lot of money on a frame, go to Jay Parker. But yeah, it's a funny business. I mean, it's funny because people have been trying to, quote unquote, disrupt it for a long time. There's that company Framebridge that has been in that game for a while. But it's resilient.

53:52It's a local business. It's a tough business. There's a lot of weird margins in it. And I like that article as well. It's always fun to understand where the costs come from. Yeah, no, absolutely. And interestingly, there is a Jay Parker and a frame bridge right on the street here in Bronxville. So we'll see. They're going to be duking it out. So stay tuned for that. The other thing that caught my eye, a couple of different designers sent this to me. And I'm really curious to hear your take because it's come up in conversation recently. So there was a piece of furniture from Walmart. It was a birdcage little piece that it seemed like you assembled and put together, and it looked like it could have been white boucle, which is probably why a bunch of people sent it to me.

54:32But what was interesting is that several people have said to me recently in interviews or other conversations, hey, I wonder if Walmart and Costco are also part of the reason that so many of these furniture retailers are losing some business. We don't talk about them or think about those big boxes as being big sellers of furniture. But so many people have remarked about how their furniture is actually looking a lot better. And this Walmart piece honestly didn't look bad. And it's obviously very reasonably priced. So I'm curious and find myself wanting to learn more. What do you think? Well, I could just make up an opinion right here.

55:10But what this is leading me to think is I need to go to my sources and get a real answer for you. So maybe we can come back in a week or two. I will say this. I don't think many designers are shopping at Walmart, so they may be gobbling up some of the market share at the lower end. But I'm wondering if Alexa Hampton is doing a whole lot of browsing on Walmart.com. Probably not, would be my guess. No, I agree with you, but I do know that a lot of people go to Costco and there's an awful lot of furniture that's shown on the floor in Costco. So you're going in for your inexpensive platters and steaks.

55:41And I don't know, do some people pick up some white bouclay furniture? I'm guessing that they might. So I want you to do some research on this. And listeners, we want to hear from you. This is exactly the kind of thing we want to get some listener response to. If you've bought a giant pallet of side tables in bulk from Costco, please write in. Please let us know. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com.

56:17This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. We're actually going to be off for Labor Day, but we'll be back with you next Thursday. We hope you have a great holiday.