The Thursday Show: Thibaut acquires Pindler. Plus: Warren Shoulberg on the state of retail

23:50Well, now that I'm constructing the new Upstairs Podcast Studio, I may have to ask AI as to how I can make it a little bit better, a little warmer. We'll see. A little less dark.

24:00Kaitlin Petersen:Yeah. Yes, exactly. Stay tuned for that, what they come up with. But in the meantime, let's move on and talk about the great art transfer. Last week, Bloomberg's Felix Salmon wrote about the nearly$1 trillion worth of art that is expected to change hands over the coming decade. And he explained why supply may far outpace demand. A few years ago, I feel like we were all talking about how millennials didn't want to inherit their parents' mahogany dining set, this brown furniture. And now this article comes out and says, they may not want your art collection either, in essence. Dennis, what do you make of all of this?

24:39Kaitlin Petersen:What did you think of this article? Well, you know, and I was always so eager. They didn't want their family's China, which I was eager to take off their hands, and their family's sterling silver, which I also, again, send it my way. I'm right here in Bronxville. I'll give you the address. But I think that the art, oh, wow, this is going to be an even bigger problem. And I mean, I wish that families were passing down invaluable art collections. But much of it, as we well know, Caitlin isn't. It's a little weird. Yeah, it's not what the kids are hoping for. And I mean, it really is quite a potential problem because what do you do with it all?

25:18Kaitlin Petersen:It's funny, the story breaks down how this$1 trillion is kind of the volume of art that's been collected by baby boomers that is expected to be inherited by their descendants in the coming decade. And the article breaks down the fact that there are not enough buyers, collectors, or institutional museum spaces to absorb the sheer volume of artwork that will enter the marketplace, which is sort of staggering. But the article also really kind of illustrates the immense burden of inheriting this artwork, for lack of a better way to say it. And really details that some of the people inheriting this work don't have the ability to insure it or store it or display it.

26:01Kaitlin Petersen:it's not worth what their parents promised them it was, but maybe it's challenging for them to sell it for pennies on the imagined dollar, even though there's not demand for it in the marketplace. And that it's just like a really sticky issue that's going to be rearing its head more and more and more in the years to come. Absolutely. And it's fascinating because it's yet another thing that we can point to, the massive acquisitions of the baby boomer generation. They just acquired a lot of art. But what was so poignant in the article was also some of it was the family created the art in the first place, which makes it even more emotionally complicated.

26:43What do I do with mom's art collection, which is actually the paintings mom did, and I can't let them go. And there were these sweet stories of trying to get local galleries to show or having little exhibitions of your family's art put up around town, but how much of that can happen. And the other thing, as you and I well know, and we were talking about before we came on air, much of this art is just hideous, Caitlin. And no one's going to want it. And what do we do about that? Coming to an estate sale near you, lots of people's front lawns is where we're going to find a lot of this art.

27:19Kaitlin Petersen:I think it's interesting, like, where does this stuff go? You know, we were talking about this before, but I do think, you know, if you love the hunt, one of my takeaways from this article is that you will likely be able to pick up some great pieces for a relative bargain at estate liquidators and regional auction houses in the years to come. It seems like there's going to be a lot of art moving through the marketplace. It also seems like maybe you're going to get a lot more clients who have inherited stuff that they do want to try to incorporate into their homes. You know, I think that's already obviously something that designers do, but maybe not at the volume that this article is projecting you will encounter soon, which is kind of an interesting, an interesting challenge, especially if it's art they don't love.

28:06Kaitlin Petersen:Well, I mean, exactly. And that, I mean, as you're just saying, so many designers are frustrated when they first come to a client and they don't have a collection to sort of design around or incorporate in. And many of them have to sort of onboard an interest in a collection with a client. Well, good news, they may come with their family's version of a big old collection and you may have to work that in. And their AI chatbot is not going to be enough to help them figure out what to do with it, unfortunately. So designers, we're looking to you to find clever and interesting ways to accommodate the vast amount of art that people are going to inherit.

28:46I don't know. It's a real problem. I hope to your point that there are some incredible opportunities to be had at an estate sale near you in the coming years. It's another reminder that there's just a lot that this next generation is going to inherit whether they like it or not. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a new American magazine from the team at Homes and Gardens, and a look at how designers can tap into the wellness boom to grow their business. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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30:45and we're back i'm joined now by our famed retail columnist warren sholberg warren welcome back thank you dennis it's a little bit of deja vu but uh i'm i'm up for whatever you want to talk about well i appreciate that very much and i'm i'm imagining that you can guess what i want to talk about, Warren. And that is the slew, that's right, you guessed it, the slew of retail earnings that we've had recently. And I'm eager to get your take on if there's some message, some takeaway, what you took away from William Sonoma and Home Depot and Lowe's and all these companies that have come out and told us how they've been doing recently.

31:30What do you make of it? So it's a bit of a conundrum because the home products market, whether it's home improvement stuff like floors and windows and kitchen cabinets or home furnishings like sofas and credenzas, is still not doing great. The housing market continues to plot along in negative territory. Warm material costs are up. And the consumer still is not feeling great about stuff as long as they are pulling into the gas station. And that price starts with the number four. They really aren't good about it. But the conundrum is that we're seeing a number of retailers in the space do pretty well.

32:17So it raises the question of what the hell does that mean? So I think you got to look at two factors. One is market share. So if you say the pie is not getting bigger, but you can say that the best retailers are picking up market share. You know, we saw that with the William Sonoma numbers this week when the CEO, Laura Alba, said it's market share. That's how we're gaining business. And I think other folks have said that, too, but they've been the most obvious ones about it. So I think you've got the bigger, better financed retailers, the ones that have their stuff together are just picking up share.

33:08And that's important. The other factor, and I don't think you can discount this, is that prices of all the wonderful things that this industry makes and sells are just higher. So if that blender was$2.89 last year and it's$3.19 this year and you're selling just as many blenders, that's kicking up your numbers. So you've got to figure that in. Is that inflation caused by supply chain, higher costs, and whatever else causes inflation? I knew I should have paid attention in that economics class. What goes into those numbers again? I don't know. Hard to remember. But that's driving some of these revenue gains.

34:01So those two things, I think you've got to look at them as those are the factors that are meaning a lot in what's still a tough and often flat market. Exactly. A tough and flat market, to your point, that shows little sign of changing or improving anytime soon. Is that the read that you get? It does. But then again, you've got Depot and Sonoma. You know, Depot says we're sticking with our numbers, which were for the year, which showed an improvement. And Sonoma says we're up in our numbers for the year. So they do feel better. I think what they're saying is we just need the slightest little nudge, whether it's interest rates or the war is over or something political happens or something political doesn't happen, perhaps it might be a better way to put it.

35:04the consumer might be in a better mood to buy something. So there's still a level of optimism out there that I don't believe is the result of psychedelic hallucinations. These guys really believe that when the year is over, their numbers are going to be okay. Yeah. And staying with William Sonoma and you referenced Laura Alba, the CEO there, who was nothing short of a bullion on this recent earnings call and eager to take questions and eager to explain all of the things that they appear to be doing right. I wonder what your perception is of what they seem to be doing so much better than much of their competition.

35:55Well, I give Laura a lot of credit. I think she's one of the best CEOs in the retail business of home furnishings right now. But Sonoma has got like a great business model. First of all, they've got a wonderful balance of e-commerce versus in-store. I think their e-com is about 65 % of their business right now. And for a long time, they were 50-50. And it really only tipped the scales during the pandemic when people were buying more online. But that kind of balance, nobody else in the home furnishing space has got that kind of balance. They've also got a terrific portfolio of brands. So, you know, they've got West Elm and Pottery Barn that really appeal to two different customers.

36:48And some customers may shop them both, but Pottery Barn is a little more upmarket than than West Elm, but that's balanced by the kitchenware division, which is Williams-Sonoma, which was their original business. And that brand has outperformed everything else in their stable over the last couple of years as people are cooking at home more, they're entertaining more, and they're still that homebody kind of thing. So you look at other home furnishings companies and even somebody like Crate, which is not public, so we can't see their numbers, and Crate does have a kitchenware component, but Sonoma has got that balance really well.

37:34And I think that's been an enormous strength for them. I think their only deficiency is in the home furnishings tier above Pottery Barn, which is where RH and R House play. Right. And Sonoma has a brand there, William Sonoma Home, but it's online. They've sort of defunded it over the last couple of years. They used to have stores. They don't. They used to have a pretty upscale catalog. If they do, I haven't seen it in a while. Well, and I'm so curious about that. And I'm glad that you mentioned that. What's your take on why they defunded it, why they've moved away from it? The CEO spoke about it and said that that division was actually doing better, but to your point, better without a lot of support that I can see.

38:26But yeah, right. It's a relatively small part of their mix, you know, but a huge opportunity for them, but enormous opportunity. Yes. And they saw that in 2007, which is when they really launched William Sonoma home. And when they had stores, I think they probably had about half a dozen stores. And then you may remember this thing in 2008. I think somebody called it a great recession or - I feel like it was a pretty rough time, if I recall. Yeah. And their timing was terrible on launching this. They ended up closing all the stores and cutting back on it. So it's a small part of their business.

39:06And on lots of their calls, including this one, they've talked about how this is a great opportunity for them, but they've been a little gun shy about it. And this is a little bit of personal. Oh, here we go. We're getting personal with Warren now. Okay. So not personal with me. I could care less. I don't have a credencer in this fight. But our friend, Gary Friedman, RH, was obviously used to work at Williams-Sonoma. And was in line for Laura Albers' job, and he didn't get it, and he left. And so there's no love lost between William Sonoma and RH. And they've got to be saying, why are we letting RH have all this glory when we know how to do this?

39:59And we've got the better systems and the better pedigree at this. frankly i don't know why they don't do it it it would require a substantial capital investment and i think they've been a little gun shy about that best example is is their launch of green row which was is their eco-friendly business and they've got what two stores and a catalog or some direct to consumer marketing but it's a very slow rollout they're not risk adverse because they do some things, but they're not willing to bet the farm on a new rollout. You look at their rejuvenation brand, which is another underutilized name that I think has enormous upside potential.

40:53And again, they've gone very slow on that. I've asked Laura Alba about rejuvenation, and she says, watch it. She said, that's going to be a billion dollar brand, but they don't break out the number. And Warren says, when? When was that going to be? Yes. I said when, and then she changed the subject. So I think, again, that's just their corporate culture, which may be why Gary Friedman was not a fit for them since he loves taking risks. But you've got to applaud Sonoma. They're just... No, no, I agree. And I think to your point, I think part of why Wall Street is loving Sonoma as much as they are is everything that you just described.

41:40So definitely one to watch. And I'm curious because we didn't get to talk about Wayfair, where we've also been saying for years, gee, kind of a slow rollout of stores going on with this brand. But I feel like they're starting to open up a lot more stores and a lot more announcements about stores. What's your what's your sense about about Wayfair? Well, I think that they are now up to 10 on the stores that are planned for the next, I guess, 12 to 24 months. They still, I believe, only have three that are open. So anybody who says that the more successful numbers they've had recently or driven by their stores, that's probably not there yet.

42:28When you're an$11 billion company, three stores are not going to make a difference. But they're up to 10, and that's significant for Wayfair. I think they ultimately, 50, it would be a logical goal, and maybe it ends up being 25, and that's not bad. So the stores are a factor there. They're well done. It's hard to do stores at that scale and make them effective. And I think Wayfair has been very good at that. The little trick that Wayfair has pulled off is that it's the vendors that are paying the freight on the products in the stores. Wayfair doesn't own those products. The vendors do. And that makes the cost of opening these stores significantly less when you don't have to buy the inventory for 150 ,000 square foot store.

43:25You know, when you think about it, this follows Wayfair's business model from the start, which is we don't own the inventory. The vendor does and they get paid when when a customer buys it. So it's the same way with the stores. It's very smart. So I give them a lot of credit. Yeah. And it's interesting that we're talking about the importance of stores at a time where many people thought that everyone was going to be moving away from them and it really didn't matter. And interestingly, they've also got now a couple of Paragold stores, and they've started to talk more aggressively about what's happening at Paragold.

44:01And it sounds like what's happening is pretty impressive growth numbers, obviously off a relatively low base. I get it. But still, it's a$400 million business now. Yeah. And I think exactly what you said is right. They're working off a very small base and where they say that Perigold outperformed the company in general, that's great. But again, let's talk about how much it really contributes in - Always the skeptic. Yeah, well, you know, I'm not convinced the earth is really round either. So, you know - So it's not just Wayfair that you're Not just Wayfair. No, I have a lot of theories. I'll share them with you on some other time.

44:45Yes, that's a different show that we'll do. A flatness show that we'll come back to. And I believe that will be your last show also. Exactly. That'll bring me down. But what I'm impressed with with the Paragold numbers is that it isn't even something that I feel they've aggressively talked about a great deal. So the The fact that they've built a$400 million business without really making a big deal about it. A couple of locations now, and I know that there are more planned. I don't know if Paragold stores will be rolled out with the same sort of pace as the Wayfair stores, but it does speak to their ability.

45:23And we'll see if they can win over the design trade in a meaningful way, because now we're talking about a lot of the high point brands and a much, much higher end sale and a much bigger AOV. if you're buying that kind of furniture. So we'll see. But it seems like it's working so far. What is your skeptic take on that one? No, they see an open space there where the shopper or the designer wants a store. And again, I think it's smart. I disagree with their strategy on Joss and Main and All Modern and the other brand that they have. I'm not quite sure what they're supposed to mean and why they don't just fold them up.

46:11Fold them all up under one brand. Yeah. Yeah. But I like that they've got Perigold. And, you know, they make a big point that Perigold is not in their big Wayfair stores and it's kept separate. And so to me, that's smart is is keep it segregated and and establish its own identity. Whereas Joss and Maine and all modern are in the Wayfair stores. So they've got something there. I'm with you. I want to see how many more stores they have and what they do with it and and and how they scale this thing up. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting having just had the conversation about William Sonoma Home. I mean, Paragold seems to be the solution, and I want to get your take on this, seems to be the e-commerce solution for a lot of these high point brands.

47:07And I get it. This is a way for them to have that kind of presence without appearing to be competition to some of their big retailers that they sell to. But clearly, the writing is on the wall that more and more of these old time big retailers continue to go away, sadly, if you feel badly about that. Although I understand that many of the owners that are finally closing up shop don't feel all that badly. So maybe my sadness is misplaced. But it does seem like I can understand the strategy. Does it make sense to you for these high point brands to lean so heavily into Paragold and Wayfair? Yeah, I think it gives them this kind of turnkey solution and also takes them off the hook.

47:53Well, we didn't do it. You know, you can't blame us. it's this other guy. And I, again, I, I give them a lot of credit and I think this works for some of the legacy brands and high point that are still just clueless about how to do it. So, yeah. Well, I mean, it clearly hasn't been their priority for a long time. Right. And, and I, And I get it on the one hand, and sometimes I struggle with the giant market model. And if you're just so used to having your customers come a couple of times a year to come see you in High Point, and then maybe you're also in Dallas, and maybe you're in a couple of these other big markets.

48:38And for a lot of these companies, for a long time, that's been enough. I don't know what your sense of that big show model is these days, and whether it's it's feeling a little tired or a little worn or if it continues to show resilience in a surprising way. I've always been a big fan of in-person trade shows. I think they serve a purpose and play a role that cannot be duplicated anyplace else. I agree. Now, the question is, do you need a 60 ,000 square foot showroom on the eighth floor in High Point? And I'm not sure you do anymore. I think that it's your go-to-market strategy that should change, not whether you're going to go to market.

49:24You need to be there. But what you do there is what's critical. And I think that's why you're seeing a lot of the big brands downsize their showrooms. They're moving out of the big building into the Hamilton Rent area or other neighborhoods. And that's going to continue. So the high point that that we used to have when Broyhill had a whole floor, that's done. And I don't see that coming back. But these guys need a showroom. Yeah, to be sure. And I'm I'm so curious. I mean, I I had the CEO of Baker on the show recently, Baker McGuire, and talking about bringing back some of the some of the great partners that they've worked with in the in the past, Barbara Berry and Bill Sofield and Thomas Pheasant's got a collection that's going to be coming up in a big way next year.

50:19And I wonder in this time, it feels like an even bigger challenge than in years past to try and reignite a brand like Baker and McGuire at high point. What's your sense of all of that? And what's your sense of what they need to do to bring that great brand back? Well, these designer brands that we've seen at High Point, this has always been the furniture industry's dirty little secret, is that you go into the showroom and there's a big banner and there's a cocktail party and you get your complimentary tote bag and little notebook. And it's prominently featured at the wholesale level. But once it gets to the stores, the consumer wouldn't have a clue that that's the Thomas Pheasant collection.

51:15You know, when Bernhardt rolled out Martha Stewart back in her heyday, and I don't mean to single out either one of them. That's just a great example. They did a terrific job in their showroom of presenting that product. And then when you went into a furniture store, you wouldn't know if this was Martha Stewart or Martha Washington. I mean, there was no follow through. Okay. Yeah. I think they need these brands. For a long time, the store was the brand. And you went into Pottery Barn and you bought Pottery Barn furniture. And now they've got half a dozen designers in there. And again, the presentation in the store may not be terrific, but they're marketing it as come in and see whoever it is.

52:10And it's great. It gives the consumer another reason to come in the store. You know, I got I never thought about going to West Elm, but or I never thought about going to CB2. But I heard that Gwyneth Paltrow has a has a has a fuzzy chair. And I saw it in online in, you know, on Instagram. And and I want to go see that chair. And I've never stepped foot in a CB2 before. So it's an effective tool. It seems like nothing that came out of these recent earnings gives us any meaningful signal about the housing market getting better, about really anything to your earlier point in the environment getting any easier.

53:05tariffs are back in a big way they're just as unpredictable as ever who knows what we're doing with canada now yeah changing the name of lake ontario and all of this and obviously we're we're mired in a in a trade war there nothing feels like it's getting easier anytime soon we just heard the federal reserve chairman give a a quite lengthy speech about how inflation is still a problem and we're going to fix it, darn it, which makes me feel like perhaps rates aren't heading lower anytime soon, certainly. What's your sense? Yeah, you didn't come away from anything with great confidence. And this nonsense with Canada is just got to be freaking out people, uh, whether it's a practical thing of, uh, Hey, I'm a company that imports, uh, you know, uh, 30 % of the wood America uses in home building comes from Canada.

54:05And, uh, you know, if I'm a home builder, I gotta be saying, Oh my God, like, I don't have enough problems already. And now you want to exactly like, I don't have enough problems already. Right. So, um, it's not a positive environment. And it's remarkable that the consumer is still out there spending. And, you know, you've got two generations coming along. The millennial generation is way behind the age curve on when they typically buy houses compared to previous generations. And there was a theory, and I subscribe to it, that as soon as they reached home owning a period, that the housing market will rebound just based on demand and just haven't seen it.

54:58So the millennials just, I don't want to say they've missed the boat, but they've sort of moved on and found other solutions. And now you're looking at Gen Z, which is entering that home buying period. They're starting families. The older ones are starting to go to soccer practice. And it's all the things we've seen previous generations do. And I'd be very curious to see if they follow what my generation did. And God bless those boomers, we don't seem to be going away. You have so much to answer for, you boomers. Oh, boy. Clearly. I just saw a headline today that boomers are not downsizing, they're upsizing.

55:53They follow bigger houses. You know, what I what I do think is fascinating to that point is we clearly didn't fully understand how boomers were feeling about their own longevity and their and their health. We had all of these assumptions just from previous generational models, right, that people would people would get to a certain age and they would start to downsize. And all of these different things were supposed to happen all neatly in order. and none of them are happening. And the boomers are buying bigger homes and they're living longer and they're spending more money on travel and they're spending more money in ways that we didn't even imagine.

56:32There's so many things that we got wrong in our assumptions about what was going to happen with this age group. And this is the age group, and I'm looking at you, Warren, that has all the darn money. This group has all the money. And until all of that sort of gets transferred and everything moves along, nothing really can happen. So I find myself feeling like, is this going to be years we're going to be having this same conversation about the housing market not moving in a meaningful way? Because how can it? We've all read these stories about we're about to see the greatest wealth transfer in the history of mankind as the boomers cash out and pass along their valuables to the next generation or the next couple of generation, it ain't happening.

57:21And we're going to keep seeing those articles. I don't know. This is way above my level of comprehension to figure out when it stops or if it stops. But you've got these boomers who we're going to be clogging up the works for years to come. So I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Dennis. If you want 10 bucks, I'll be glad to wire it to you. Well, I appreciate that. I'm hoping you'll take care of me in my old age. But I do find it fascinating because again, we've got to rework a lot of our assumptions around all of this. And that's part of what isn't being talked about enough. I don't think we're talking about how they're spending and how they have all the money, but we haven't yet really talked about how it's impacting everything else going on in the economy.

58:18And it's just a very different outcome than we would have imagined, particularly in the housing market and how it applies to all of that. As we wrap up, Warren, I know you have a long time relationship with the CEO at Ethan Allen, uh farouk kathwari i'd be remiss if i didn't ask you just to weigh in on on your thoughts around some of the drama that's that's happening there uh you and i share an enormous respect for for farouk and and what he's built over the many years that he's been running ethan allen and he's he certainly faced these kinds of battles in the past so this isn't new for him but but what's your what's your sense about this moment in time and and and what this might mean so uh you know i agree with you dennis i i i have enormous respect for him and i have known him for a long time and i think he's one of the smartest guys out there so i don't uh underestimate his ability to to pull this off and and to rebuild and and repel the barbarians at the gate uh this one is tough you know he's done it before um there are things uh that uh i think he should be doing um that uh would uh would uh help the business so far remains to be seen whether he'll do it um but this is a guy you can't count out and uh look what he did at ethan allen what a train wreck it was when he took over.

59:51And look how he's created the modern Ethan Allen company. And so he's not done yet. And I'd like to see what he does next. I'm rooting for him. Well, it's going to be interesting to see what does happen next. And as you say, he's faced this before. He doesn't seem to want to walk away. I'm sure it would help him considerably if he introduced us to some of the people who might be taking over in the future. And if we understood a succession plan a little bit better. And I think, you know, we talk about collaborations. I think Ethan Allen could benefit from some great collaborations. Absolutely. Right.

1:00:32Let some other people come in and help on the design side. There's a myriad things that could be done there. And I think that I hope that in the future we see some of them enacted. But in the meantime, I think come November, we might get a better sense of how this drama is going to be played out. It is definitely one to watch, but a remarkable figure in our industry. And he's, as you say, turned that company around and has led it for many, many years. And we'll see where it all goes, but I'd be surprised if this is the last chapter for Farouk Kuthwari. Warren, always a pleasure to talk with you.

1:01:16And I thank you so much for making the time. Dennis, enjoy it as well. Always good. So thanks, Dennis.

1:01:28And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Caitlin, what caught your eye?

1:01:37Kaitlin Petersen:A Curbed article caught my eye this week. Matthew Sedeca wrote about a new website suggesting that New Yorkers dodged the city's controversial pied-a-terre tax by offering their spaces up to artists. When you actually dive into this article, he's explaining how the comedian Madison Walser created this fake company called Aura Investments, which proposed pairing wealthy luxury condo owners with local artists to be live-in house sitters. This is a joke. It was all about, like, skirt taxes, house artists. It was not real. This was all a joke, people. Settle down. Settle down. People got quite worked up about this.

1:02:13Kaitlin Petersen:And then she got real applications from artists and homeowners. And so anyway, the article kind of breaks down this controversial, you know, this controversial pied-a-terre tax, how that's unfolding throughout New York City. You know, this comedian is now exploring whether or not there's a way to make this operation legit. But it's a really fun look at a joke gone really sideways. but also, you know, a fun and interesting response to a real crisis in housing, you know, and obviously New York City's current challenges in trying to figure it out. I just found this to be a delightful journey and a real fun way to take in some of this pied-a-terre tax headlines.

1:02:51I don't know about you, but yeah, I mean, this piece is, a lot of people took it seriously And a lot of people responded. And the pied-a-terre tax is causing a lot of fascinating changes in behavior. And we're seeing that people are coming to New York and renting$100 ,000,$150 ,000 apartments rather than having to buy at the moment, partially because there's not a lot of supply out there, but also because they're just so uncertain about this pied-a-terre tax and what it means. So it was interesting to see sort of a comical side of this.

1:03:29Kaitlin Petersen:I feel like, yeah, if you live here, you're reading all about this and sort of experiencing the effects of it in real time and being like, what on earth does this mean? How do I actually feel about this? What is this doing? And it was really nice to laugh about it. Yes, exactly. What got your eye this week, Dennis? A couple of things caught my eye. I saw that friend of the show, Michael Diaz Griffith, has finally come to Substack, and we salute him for that. I'm sure lots of people will want to check that out and have a read. Congratulations, Michael. But the other fun thing that caught my eye is earlier today I got to have a video chat with Rosemary Halgarten, who was kind enough to give me a sneak peek of the new dun-dun-dun wall coverings that Rosemary Hallgarten is doing.

1:04:18And it's just as fabulous as you might imagine. She did prepare me, Caitlin, by letting me know that, yes, there was actually going to be an ivory boucle involved. Oh, no. And you know what? I mean, you know how worked up I get. But if anyone can make it look pretty fabulous, and she did. And so I don't want to give it all away. But just imagine everything that is fabulous about the alpaca, rosemary, howl garden, the boucle, the textures, the raffia. I mean, it all comes together. And it's really quite beautiful. People that are coming to What's New, What's Next are going to see a big unveiling of it.

1:05:01and it's exciting, but she's been working on this for a while and it's finally coming out into the world. And it is beautiful. Again, could that help me here in the podcast studio, Caitlin? I'm just saying, sound absorption. A little bit of alpaca sound absorption. Some beautiful alpaca wall covering, I think might be just the thing. I don't know. We'll have to see. But congratulations to her. It's very exciting and it was lovely of her to share it with me and I look forward to seeing and hearing everyone's response. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com.

1:05:43If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. We're taking a break for the Labor Day holiday, but Fred and I will be back next week. Have a great weekend and we'll be back soon.