The Thursday Show: What happened at High Point? Plus: Why designers are advertising on Instagram

25:06So I do see if designers truly embrace this and they find success with it, then I do think that this, you know, shifts the landscape subtly and even takes even more power away from we sad people in the traditional media industry. But I don't know, time will tell. Time will tell. Interestingly, we've moved past some of the Instagram fatigue conversations. Maybe this, right, maybe this shakes some of that off and say, no, wait a minute, I love Instagram now that it becomes this big business generator for me. And And listen, maybe it will. I hope designers will share and write to us about experiences that they're having, because I think we're going to be talking about this a lot in the future.

25:44All right. That's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a roundup of the latest showroom openings and a look at how tariffs may impact retailers' plans for the holidays. We'll be back in a minute. But first, a quick break.

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27:16And we're back. I'm not Dennis Scully. I'm Fred Nicolaus. I was one of the poor souls who did not make it down to High Point, North Carolina for spring market this year. But BOH had some superstars on the ground, and we got three of them here to talk about what happened in High Point, starting with Editor-in-Chief Caitlin Peterson. Thanks for being here, Caitlin. Hi, Fred. Thanks for having me. Our retail columnist, Warren Schulberg. Warren, thanks for being here. Morning, Fred. And we missed you terribly down here. I'm sure. And Dennis Scully, I'm not familiar with your work, but it'll be great to hear from on the show and hear more about what you do.

27:48I'm kind of new coming up in the business. I'm excited. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for the opportunity to be on this show. I've heard a lot about it. I'm a big fan. It's launched a lot of stars on this show. You could be one of them. Let's do a quick vibe check in a word that isn't tariffs or a couple words. Let's hear what the mood was like at High Point this year, starting with you, Caitlin. What's the vibe? The mood was uneasy. It was hit or miss. You'd go from showroom to showroom and you'd get kind of this different sense of panic or sort of restrained panic. But nobody was just like, oh, don't worry about it.

28:23Things are going to be great. There was just always a sort of this dark, gloomy cloud of uncertainty, of discomfort with what's coming next, whether it was tariffs or the economy at large. Restrained panic was the name of the band I had in college. You know, somebody, I know we're going to get to tariffs later, but I walked into one showroom And I was like, how are you doing? How are you feeling? And the CEO looked me dead in the eye and goes, we're just freaking out. Yes. If listeners, if you've been playing the drinking game of taking a shot every time we say the word tariffs, I would urge you not to play.

28:57I got you off to a great start. Don't do that today. Yes, exactly. Warren, what's your vibe check? What's a word to sum up High Point Market? Well, Caitlin stole it from me, but it's freak out. You know, as a child of the 60s, I've seen people freak out and that's what they were doing here it's chaos it's confusion and um it's not pretty okay dennis it's not give us give us a ray of sunshine here well so here's so here's what i'll say that'll sound that'll sound a little bit more what should i say well so mine's hyphenated mine is battle hardened so so i feel right so i feel like a lot of people to their immense credit tried to put on a really good face.

29:40They get it. And I spoke to a lot of people who said that when they got the showroom ready and they got the sales team together, they said, listen, everyone's going to come in here and give you five minutes about tariffs and full of anxiety. But then it's your job to turn that conversation around, right? And say, listen, but let me tell you about what we got on the floor. Or let me tell you how much of our product is coming from America and you don't have to worry. And so I feel like a lot of people feel like, listen, we got through COVID. We got through the incredible boom in business and then the bust in business.

30:09We are battle-hardened. We're going to get through this too. And then there was lots of gallows humor. There was lots of like we're all in this miserable fix together and somehow we're going to come out the other side. So attendance, we actually got some official numbers from the High Point Market Authority. Caitlin, what do attendance look like on the ground? Well, I think the interesting thing actually looking at these numbers is that they don't 100 % match with what the show felt like on the street. I think everywhere you walked, in addition to tariffs, most people were sort of like, oh, it's really slow, don't you think?

30:42But in numbers from the High Point Market Authority that does not include badge scans on Wednesday, buyer companies were off fall market by 3.9%. The interesting thing about that is that buyer contacts, like the number of human beings, was only down 0.2%. One of the interesting things that the market authority flagged was that there were fewer companies present, but a lot of them brought more teams. And I think one thing we probably saw was a lot of buying groups, buying for retailers, really fanning out and looking for new resources as they're realizing that the companies that have been their suppliers historically may not work for them as the tariff situation unfolds.

31:28Only other thing I'll say that was pretty interesting, designer traffic was down more than retailer traffic this market. The market authority said that by the end of day Tuesday, stocking buyer companies were down 0.4%. Non-stocking buyer companies, so that's designers, were down 6.6%. So we did just see, you know, there were more designers this year that decided to sit this one out, decided to stay home. Dennis, how does that compare to what you sort of saw on the streets? Yeah, I think to what Caitlin was saying earlier, so many showrooms you walked in and I feel like attendance was one of the first things that they pointed out.

32:03Often, even before the tariff conversation got started, right? Yeah, it's like, God, it's slow. Yes, yes. And people, there were some showrooms on Saturday or Sunday who were like, we're down 20 % off of last spring in badge scans. Yeah, so some people would immediately say, oh, the Canadians didn't come, for example. Perhaps there aren't as many Chinese at market. Hey, no surprise there. And what's funny is by the end of market, several people sent me sort of updated notes saying, oh, you know what? It didn't turn out as bad as expected. Or, oh, you know, things got better. One of the things that I struggle with in thinking about my own perceptions about High Point, I'm often just so happy to be there.

32:43And I'm so delighted to sort of see people that I don't normally get to see that I worry sometimes it kind of clouds my judgment about what the mood and tenor really is. But so that's why I was asking so many people to sort of send me their own thoughts and notes. And by the end of market, a lot of people said, oh, you know what? It started slow, but actually we got a lot more traffic by the end. Or, oh, you know, people weren't as full of anxiety as we thought they might be. So interesting. And it sounds like you heard the same, Caitlin, a little bit. Oh, I think actually what you said, that designers weren't as full of anxiety as anticipated is 100 % true.

33:20That energy was absolutely coming from the brands exhibiting. and not as much from the designers walking the show. I felt that in a big way. By the way, you referenced kind of the international buyers. That was the one stat I skipped before. I think, as anticipated, the international buyer traffic was down 14 % from market. Down 14%. Wow. So that's a big number. That's the big drop. Yeah. We did see, obviously, a lot of folks from abroad deciding to sit this one out and stay home. So Warren, you're much more in touch with the retail side of the industry. There's been this sort of bifurcation in the high point where the retail buyers go early, the designers come over the weekend.

33:57What was your sense? Were companies sending their people in droves? Was it a little bit light? What was your perception of those kinds of people and how they were attending market? The big stores were here. They came in as early as Tuesday and Wednesday of the week before market. And they were essentially gone by Saturday. And so my sense is that they brought the usual number. You know, if you want to say top 100 furniture stores, I think they were here. Not sure how active they were in buying. I think it was, you know, some of it might be a little more time with domestic manufacturers. I've heard a little bit of that and a little bit of what do you got that's here that I can buy immediately.

34:44that's pre-tariff. So I don't think there was a fall off in big stores. Well, let's stop putting it off then. Let's dive right into tariffs. So let's do a kind of fun timestamp here recording this Wednesday, April 30th, 1021 a.m. At the moment, there is still this huge 145 % tariff on imports from China. That's got to be probably the biggest hurdle for these companies to overcome. I'm curious, Caitlin, what did you hear about people who have a heavy manufacturing base in China? Or did you not hear that at all? What was the impact of the 145 % tariffs? Yeah. What I ended up talking to people about a lot was fabric, actually.

35:21And I think even CEOs of major designer trade-focused manufacturers saying that as these tariffs rolled out, they were looking at their line and surprised to realize how much of their inventory of fabrics was from China. I heard the same thing. Yep. Yeah, me too. Yeah, we haven't had to take a close look at this before. You don't think about where all those graded-in fabrics come from. And it turns out a lot of them are coming from China. I think there were a couple different ways that they were talking about addressing that. Some companies just said, look, we raised prices 2 % to 7%. That'll cover sort of the volatility of some things are coming in higher, some things are coming in lower, and we'll be okay.

36:03I saw a lot of companies saying, we're going to put a surcharge at the bottom of your invoice. we know exactly how much the price has gone up because of these tariffs. And we're just going to stick that down at the bottom of your invoice, it gets taxed, just like the rest. And the plan is in that case that, you know, when the tariffs change, if the tariffs go away, that surcharge kind of rolls back off the invoice and prices go back to normal or to what they were before all of that. The one other thing that actually really impressed me maybe the most was at Rowe. They looked at their entire line of in-stock fabrics, realized that a lot were from China, and instead of just kind of raising prices across the board, in a very short window of time, have re-tagged all of their fabrics with what they're calling a textile volatility scale.

36:51And so if they have domestic textiles, those were labeled as low volatility. They then looked at their imported textiles and assigned them either a moderate or a high volatility rating, and basically said, the best thing we can offer to our designer customers is clarity. I think that was very smart that they did. I do too. I was, it's really interesting to kind of say, this is, this is the best we can do. This is all of the information we have. And if what you want is really information to give your clients or, or guidance for your clients, you know, here's the best we can offer you. There was one upscale upholstery company that showed a, a new sofa, obviously created before most of this started and um it was a chinese fabric on it and uh the company said we have enough fabric on hand to make 10 of these and so if you want this fabric you need to buy it like right this minute uh and they said once uh once we've made these 10 that's it so um That's an interesting tactic.

37:56And I think you are going to see this kind of surge in pre-tariff products that people are grabbing because they know once it's gone, it's gone. Yeah, I mean, I think to that point, and I had a couple of different conversations with companies that placed massive orders ahead of time, and really thought, you know what, I'm going to, I'm just going to take as much as I can. And when that inventory is gone, it's gone. But rather than try and reprice everything right now, I'm going to focus on what I have on hand. And then I just leave everything else and see how this plays out. And I think when you spoke to companies that are selling on price, and we talk about this all the time, the lower price companies, they're suffering the most in this.

38:44They don't have the margin that they can swallow. You saw with some companies, wow, they must have quite a margin on some of these products because some companies felt like, yeah, I can eat that. 145%. Yeah, I can work with that. I can work with that. So I'm thinking, wow, what is your markup if you're fine with that? And many companies said, you know, if in the end this ends up being 25, 30 percent, you know what? I can work with that too. To the point of is this really going to have an impact on China? Everybody that I spoke to had some kind of a plan where I am going to be moving X percentage out of there.

39:21That's been going on for, I mean, six years at this point. Of course, exactly. And it's only been accelerated in the last 100 days, which is why those early Vietnam tariff numbers caught so many people off guard because they thought they were doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing, which was everyone spending time in Ho Chi Minh City. And that's what you told me to do. I want to just quickly talk about Ho Chi Minh City for a second, because, Warren, as you pointed out, there has been a lot of movement of case goods and upholstery out of China already. but you know there are these impending quote-unquote reciprocal tariffs on countries like Vietnam that may come back in you know whatever 90 days is from April 2nd how are companies thinking about that are they thinking oh we really are going to get those really high percentage tariffs on countries like Vietnam and Cambodia because you know the furniture industry is so reliant on those countries and I have to imagine you know that 90 day window is weighing on them while they make decisions in the moment.

40:13The majority of people I talk to believe there's going to be a political solution that's going to make places like Vietnam acceptable. And maybe that's 10%, maybe that's something under 20%, but they think it's going to be worked out and that's not going to be a problem. They live in hope that there's going to be a rational solution to things. and those of us who are a little more skeptical think that perhaps they need to have a plan B. So they're not making decisions around the assumption that, oh, it will be 45 % on Vietnam in 90 days or whatever. They really think it's going to come down to 10 % for most of the countries in the world and that China will end up being somewhere in the 30 to 40 % range and that they can live with that somehow.

41:16But again, I don't know if these are informed opinions, and I think they're wishful thinking more than educated research. One of the interesting things that I heard from a couple of companies was this idea that so much of the manufacturing that is moving, for example, from China to Vietnam, it's the entire Chinese company moving their own operations, their own equipment, their own facility, basically, to Vietnam. And I heard a couple people really expressing concern, given sort of the fixation, especially on China, that Chinese-owned companies in Vietnam might be especially vulnerable in whatever the next phase of the tariff conflicts are.

41:59And that even if you're relocating your manufacturing, if you're doing so with Chinese partners, you might eventually be at risk. Well, let's take it back home here to the USA and talk about the domestic manufacturers who do show at High Point, did they really see a boost or a surge in business? Were they sort of touting their USA bona fides? I saw a number of companies that had banners, and there was a bit of that. It wasn't overwhelming, but companies that manufactured domestically were absolutely shouting it as loudly as possible. So was there a perception, Dennis, that these companies actually saw a boost in business, or was it simply advertising that they were domestically made?

42:42What was the actual impact? Well, that's the big question. I think people were definitely using this as a talking point. I didn't get the feeling from any of the companies that I spoke to, and Caitlin, you tell me if you disagree, I didn't get the sense that there was this tidal wave of orders that were coming their way as a result. I think they were having a lot more conversations, to be sure, and the American companies were very happy to be able to have this messaging at market. And the few showrooms that had a couple of items, oh, some acrylic that still needs to be made over in Asia and a few metal pieces that come from India.

43:19But I think they were happy to be able to talk about it. But I didn't get the sense that it was moving a ton of new business in their direction yet. I think they were happy to be positioned as they were. But go ahead, Caitlin. I talked to a couple of brands that do a lot of private labeling for some of the big retailers, you know, the Pottery Barns, the high-end Wayfair brands who are domestically made. And they had a ton of people coming to their showroom saying, I'm so sorry, I've never returned your emails before, but do you think we could work something out? Let's be friends now. Wow. I mean, I think interestingly, you know, I think there was a little bit of holding that at arm's length and saying, you know, that COVID rush, you know, we're not going to work like that again.

44:07We're going to do this in a more measured way. We're going to stay with the partners we've had before. And, you know, really just like take this at a little more steady, slow and steady way. How are designers talking about tariffs? You guys earlier mentioned that designers were in a good mood and that obviously High Point definitely has a bit of a party atmosphere, especially for designers. What were their takes? Caitlin and Dennis, you guys both had conversations on stage and I'm sure off with designers. What was their tariff vibe? Caitlin, what do you think? I think a lot of people at market were pretty busy, but weren't necessarily confident that they were going to be able to sustain that level of business looking towards the end of the year.

44:42I completely agree. I think you were having a lot more pipeline discussions with designers than we've had in the past. They weren't focused on tariffs, but what they were focused on, supply chain, tell me, can I get this? Should I buy this? Or is this really not coming? And also, all those emails I'm getting about price hikes, tell me what's real, tell me what I can expect, tell me what I need to tell my client. And many of them said to me, honestly, I've stopped reading the news altogether. That was something I heard actually quite a bit of market because honestly, they are so focused on their business.

45:15And so many designers came to market with very clear goals in mind about what they needed to achieve. And they had their head down. And I think, Caitlin, and we'll talk about this later, many of them didn't come looking for a whole bunch of new product inspirations and all of that. It was really with my existing partners, what's really going on? What should I expect? And I think they wanted to ask them how they saw business in the next six to 12 months. But doesn't that kind of amount to the same thing to say that they're not worried about tariffs, but they are worried about the overall economy, price increases in the supply chain?

45:48I mean, it's kind of all part and parcel of the same thing, isn't it? I think it can feel really different, though, right? You're like, oh, you talk to manufacturers and they're looking at numbers and what that means for sort of the component cost of their product. The designer's like, God, I just have to justify that this sofa is$500 more expensive. Or I think if you think about sort of the overwhelm factor, right? I think a lot of vendors did a good job of saying, we want to tell you as much information as we can. I think at some point that veers away from clarity and confidence and towards just like, well, who the hell knows what's happening with prices?

46:20How am I supposed to figure this out? I think there was a real sense of like that there's been so much information that isn't necessarily that helpful or that's very hard to keep track of that you're just sort of throw your hands up and you're like, well, gosh, I hope this works out by the time I have to buy that thing. I think beyond tariffs, one of the things that I think is also important to keep in mind is that I spoke to a lot of first time visitors to High Point and a lot of designers were excited to be there, discovered a lot of new product. I mean, what market is supposed to be all about, which actually isn't talking about tariffs all the time, what market is supposed to be all about, which is designers coming and finding new resources and learning about new potential partners.

47:03There was still a lot of that going on, and I don't want that to get lost in all of the anxiety and the stress and everything else. There was a lot of good old fashion. Hi, how do you do? Let me show you my fabulous sofa collection. And so that was also a lot of the conversations I was having with people beyond tariffs, Fred. So Caitlin, for you, what lay beyond tariffs? I think a lot of new and refreshed showrooms. There was a real sort of vitality in that space and sort of the investment that brands are making in that space. Probably most notably was the fact that Bernhardt opened in the old Klossner space.

47:38It was huge. It was all white inside and out. It was very striking. They threw a rager of a party on Saturday night, people dancing on tables. It was a good time. Not me, but it was a good time. And that's a really big shift in sort of a really strong brand being in a different neighborhood slightly, you know, leaving IHFC. I think you kind of felt the impact of that just kind of down the street from them. Idrana Hoyos and Burton James were among the brands that had opened in Hamilton Place. In IHFC, Curry and Company completely revamped their showroom. They like tore out a bunch of doors, put doors in different places.

48:15And I think that was a really good example of just like a smart investment in changing the way that people experience your showroom and move through your space. The Universal redesigned its designer's lounge. It was super chic and swanky and moody and dark. There was a lot of investment in real estate, in making showroom experiences that were meaningful and memorable. And that felt notable to me. Do you think a lot of that had been done under the auspices of survive till 25 and then thrive? I don't think that most of those decisions were made starting in January, for sure. And I think there was a little bit of a sense of like, oh, we hope this works out for some of them, for some of those big investments.

48:56But I think it's just, as brands evolve, as market attendance evolves, as certain brands are shifting their focus increasingly towards the trade especially, I think they are sort of putting dollars into their businesses, into their high point experience to make sure that how they're showing reflects who they want to attract in and how they want to interact with them. I hope that continues. I think it's smart. What about new product? You know, one thing we've talked about during COVID was that it was really difficult for brands to bring new product to market. I feel like every time we have one of these recaps, it's like, well, there wasn't as much new stuff as we'd hoped.

49:29Was there a big surge of newness this market? What do you guys think? Not to continue the dark cloud analogy, I think the introductions to this market in a lot of cases felt very safe. I think brands looked at their assortment and said, we're really good at X. People like X from us. Here's a little more X. You didn't necessarily walk into a showroom and think, oh, my God, I've never seen this before, or I didn't expect this from you. Or when someone says to you, what's the most exciting thing you've seen at market? you kind of drew a blank and you're like, well, I've seen a lot of nice things, but I don't know that there was a lot that was so incredibly memorable that you'll look back three years from now and be like, oh my God, do you remember in spring of 25 when so-and-so launched whatever?

50:15I don't know that anyone really had, there are markets like that, but I don't think this one was one of them. What I will say, and Caitlin, you tell me what you saw, but I was pretty darn excited about what I consider to be a pretty considerable drop in the amount of ivory boucle. Yes, yes, the voice of the Business of Home podcast has been heard. And I want to give a shout out to Eicholtz, for example, which in previous markets had been perhaps the ivory boucle capital of High Point. And you had to search for the ivory boucle in that showroom. And I got to say, it was pretty impressive. And so lots of people found other boucle-ish materials to put on there.

51:02So we don't hate boucle-ish, just ivory boucle. No, no, no. And boucle is fantastic. But it was clear that they needed to move on from the ivory boucle, and they did, and in so many spaces that would have normally had a lot of them. So I do think that that was a big statement and interesting. And I think to Caitlin's point, I mean, there were a lot of the companies that have really great partners, you know, Chaddock showing a really great Mark Sykes collection, for example. Right? That was a beautiful, and it was so perfect for him. What Carrier and Company introduced with Century was elevated and lovely and made a lot of sense, and you didn't feel it was this massive new 800 SKUs, but it was very tasteful.

51:50a beautiful bar, a beautiful dining table, really, really well-executed pieces. Celery Kemble's collection with Woodbridge, again, tasteful, lovely. Several designers reached out to me to say, make sure you go see that. So I think to Caitlin's point, there weren't these massive rollouts, but the companies that had the great partners, I thought that Kim Scodro's stuff at Hickory Chair, right, was beautiful, and I think speaks to a moment in time that we're in right now. And I think that moment in time is actually very feminine and sweet. Yes, exactly. There were so many different ways to pleat skirts, but skirts were everywhere.

52:30There was a lot of scallops. There were a lot of delicate trims. There was a lot of kind of sweet tufted and channeled items. It was just very fringe. They're like all different kinds of chunky bouillon fringe, like really delicate fringes, but big fringes. I think a lot of little fringed kind of contrast welts. There were just these sweet details that really defined a lot of the showrooms that we walked into. And again, voluminous skirts. Yes, exactly. So much tailoring detail. And that was really interesting. And in a way, Caitlin, I mean, tell me how you feel. It felt very soothing. It felt very comforting.

53:12It felt very warm. It felt like you were going to be taken care of. There was a lot of like, oh. Yes, exactly. It's so cute. It was like we were talking about little baby ducks or something. You would walk in and just be like, oh, this is lovely. And I do think there is something very comforting about that. There is something that meets the moment with a lot of those details that we saw in the showroom. Yeah. And a lot of color. Yeah. Right? I mean, I think there was a lot of color. And again, moving on from the ivory boucle. And I celebrate it. Did you guys make it over to 313 Space? That's a building that debuted last fall.

53:51It made a big splash at the time. Everyone thought it was cool. Is it still cool? It is even cooler, I think. Cooler. I think, I mean, right when you're new, they were new last market. Everyone, it was sort of the talk of the town, but it was a very like, have you seen it? And now it was, have you been there yet? You have to go. Yes. And so I think, you know, Pookie is a great example. They had been in Interhall for the two markets. those last two markets. They moved into 313 space. And I think they did say, you don't get quite the volume of foot traffic, but they were blown away by just sort of the caliber of designer that was consistently walking through 313 space and were very sort of heartened by the foot traffic that they were seeing there.

54:31I think that building has managed very quickly to become a destination for the high-end design trade in a way that's pretty extraordinary. I agree. And Alfredo Paredes showed up there and he's got a nice space. It was so funny. Herber has a good space there. Yeah. I mean, it was so funny to hear the people who had seen it last market were sort of like, oh, you haven't been there? Oh, my God. Like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, oh, you should totally get that. So, I mean, it did have everybody talking. What was so interesting was to see people pulling big executives over. I saw CEOs of so many companies being brought over to the 313 building saying, now imagine if the entire market felt like this 313 building and you had a restaurant downstairs and everybody was like, oh, yeah, no, I could see.

55:21So, I mean, that was interesting too. On the first floor in the Shuang showroom, they had this giant dining table setting that had a giant wildflower meadow in the middle of it. It was beautiful and evocative and extraordinary and kind of reminiscent of something I saw at Salone like six years ago. And the merchandising there is so elevated, is so kind of above and beyond what's happening in a lot of market in the sense not to say that other merchandising isn't good, but in the sense that it's so not traditional. It's not about creating room sets. There's something a little more conceptual, a little more cutting edge about some of the displays that are happening there.

56:05And I think that's maybe part of what feels so electric and exciting and inspired, is that there's a little bit more room for imagination when you're walking through that building. And I was impressed with the 313 space as well. I had not been there last market. So very cool. You know, we'll see how it maintains the cool du jour factor and whether something else comes along to replace it. But it shows that creative things are being done here and that there's a place for that. So I thought that was impressive. Well, I think that's a great place to end it. We've gone from restrained panic to the cool new building at High Point.

56:47I'd love to go out on a high note, so we will. Thank you guys so much for being here, Caitlin. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Warren. Thank you. And Dennis, I'll talk to you in about 20 minutes. Hey, thanks for having me, Fred. I look forward to talking to you again soon. I hope this does great things for your career, Dennis. Yeah, fingers crossed.

57:07And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? The Dallas Market Center caught my eye because this week they put out a statement against tariffs. And I don't know, I know, you know, we just talked with Warren and Caitlin about tariffs for quite some time. But, you know, it's pretty rare for an organization like the Dallas Market Center to put out a statement that has anything resembling any kind of political dimension to it. So I think it's, you know, it's very striking to see to see stuff like that, where they're, you know, they're coming out against, you know, this trade policy.

57:43And I, you know, I don't certainly don't think anyone's done Trump administration is like, What does the Dallas Market Center think? But I think it goes to show you how real this is getting for a lot of businesses in every industry. And I just, you know, I think people are already tired of hearing about tariffs to some degree, but I don't think the real effects have quite been felt yet. And I think that stuff like this is an example of where we are really starting to feel it. And, you know, that will only increase in the days and weeks ahead, assuming there's no drastic shift in policy, which, you know, certainly could happen.

58:12I agree. What was striking to me was that it's not just a statement. It's a petition. And they've asked for people to go online and sign, and there is quite a lengthy list. So, I mean, they're really quite concerned about all of their retailers in that space. And with good reason, Fred, as we've pointed out many times. What caught your eye this week? A couple of things caught my eye. One, I wanted to just quickly mention the El Decor piece that Catherine Hong wrote about letting AI design my home. You and I have talked about AI quite a bit in the design space. But what I thought was interesting, and it made me think of the expert in the conversation that we were just having, towards the end of the conversation, she shares that what she actually found most meaningful was setting up essentially kind of a design consultation with ChatGPT.

59:00And the ChatGPT actually had some pretty good advice for her. So interesting to see where these tools might go. But that was an interesting piece and one worth checking out. The other thing that I wanted to touch on was I got a note from a listener who's actually not a designer, but a woman of some means who lives in San Francisco and wants to hire a designer. But she's a little bit nervous because when she listens to the designers on our show, Fred, they often talk about how they really don't want their clients to be very involved in the process. Yes. And this nice woman wants to be involved and wants to make sure that the space is very personal and about her.

59:48And she said now that her architect has started saying, well, now these are just suggestions. But of course, this is really all about you. And that's made her feel better. But she's a little bit leery because she feels like designers don't want her to be involved. What do you think? Well, two things. One, I think she has to understand that this podcast is a safe space for designers to really speak their mind. This is not a marketing channel for them. But I mean, second of all, I think like in as much as many people, many designers do say that I think a lot of them really do get that, you know, clients these days are really interested in the process.

1:00:19And I think it's they like that when it goes well, you know, when there is a fun dialogue where you're showing things back and forth and when the client, you know, respects your expertise, but also adds their own flavor. I think most designers would say their favorite clients do give a lot of input. I think it's more when the client gives a lot of bad input that that's what they don't like. Or when the client is, you know, hired a designer but largely wants someone just to place orders. I don't think that designers hate working with involved clients. I think they hate working with the wrong involved client.

1:00:49That would be my that would my take anyway. I completely agree with you. I think most designers would tell you that they are trying very hard to create very personal spaces. They enjoy nothing more than learning everything they can about a client and wanting that home to really represent them. That's when it really is the most meaningful for them. But it's always interesting to hear from people who aren't in the design industry who are listening to the show and what their perception is. So I was so glad that she wrote in. And I encourage more people to write in or DM me or, you know, Fred, leave me one of those voice messages.

1:01:26I don't mind, Fred. I know you're here. Write us a review. Write us a review. There you go. Write us a review. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, look at that. Write to us at podcastatbusinessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday. you