The Thursday Show: Why Jill Cohen made a design book you can't buy. Plus: Inside the AD100

24:35You know, one of my favorite details is you see Peter Marino when he first comes on the list. He's very preppy. He's got a little terrier dog in his photo and slowly turns into the, you know, leather God that he is today. But, you know, you also can sort of step back and like look at the list of data. You really see like there's such a concentration about half the firms are from New York, for example. Probably not a shock, but you really do see that in the data. The other thing that, you know, is maybe not a surprise is that the list is skews male, especially in the earlier years. There was the very first list.

25:03There was only 22 women out of something like 112 principals all in. You know, the balance has certainly gotten more equal over the years, but especially in the early decades, it was definitely male dominated. And, you know, it's it's just too bad in an industry that has so many strong women in it that it's been that way. But it's it's moving towards more more equality in that regard, to be sure. Well, so speaking of of where it's moving, what what do we think is the is the future of this institution that we call the AD 100? Yeah, I mean, I'm really curious about that because I think, you know, in the 90s, it had this incredible power because it was just the only game in town.

25:37This was the most powerful list of high-end residential interior designers by the most glamorous magazine. And now there's so many ways for people to find designers. I do think it still matters, though. It's a very useful, it has status, especially in the industry. I mean, how many people just say like, oh, yeah, we're with the 8100. It's like, it's a very useful and impactful shorthand. You know, I don't know that it has quite the same, you know, economic impact for designers. It's difficult to study that. That's not on the spreadsheet, but I think it still matters. And I think it's up to the editors of AD to sort of keep it culturally relevant.

26:09And it's very valuable for them. I think it's valuable for the designers who own it. I know there's a lot of skeptics out there, but after, you know, spending a long time putting this together, I feel like it's got legs. Well, I was surprised in recent interviews, we spoke with both Seth Kaplowitz and with Keith Granite, who both weighed in on their takes about the AD100. And both of them sort of downplayed what they thought was the significance of being on it. But I think when you ask the average designer, even though Seth said that designers show up in his office and don't even mention that they want to be on that list, I find that hard to believe that that's not a burning desire of most up and coming designers and most in the industry.

26:51That for all of the talk, I think they do still want to be on it. And I do think it's important. I hope people enjoy the piece. It's always fun looking back at Paige Renz's reign. Moving on, we're going to talk about House Beautiful, which posed an interesting question. Can you actually teach good taste? Yes, the magazine's editorial director, Joanna Saltz, asked that very question to a panel of design experts in a recent video series with varying responses. I just want to talk about this one because it's such a, in a weird way, it's kind of like a cocktail party conversation, but it's sort of a profound one.

27:28I know you put this up on Instagram and got some interesting responses, right? Sean Yashar was eager to send me a piece that he had written a while back that I think we might have talked about at the time entitled, you guessed it, You Can't Teach Taste. And a lot of people weighed in feeling the same way. But I do think that you can expose yourself. I do think that art history education, I think that design history education can inform you. But I do think that so many of the conversations we've had about design criticism have often led to the subjective nature of what is good design or what is a great room or what is good taste.

28:12I think a lot of people would say, well, who are you to tell us what good taste is, right? Well, I am nobody. I am definitely the wrong person to tell you what good taste is. I think people can learn. I think you can be exposed to a lot. And again, I think that in a way, this is a big part of what is central to the fears around what artificial intelligence might be able to bring forward in the coming years. And I think this issue of can you actually teach taste? I wonder, can a machine learn taste? And is it right now as we're talking, Fred? Is it going to NYCID? Is Claude at the Metropolitan Museum of Art right now just learning taste?

28:58Yeah, well, we got tariffs. Now we got AI on the podcast. I'm glad we have it. I think it's a really profound question, though, because it gets at the central question of what is taste. And I think there's so many very knee-jerk reactions. Of course, AI has no taste, like the stuff is cheesy and bad. And I understand that because the results tend to be generic when you put something into an AI engine. But honestly, it has better taste than I think I do. I don't know if that says a lot necessarily. Well, it's interesting that we've spoken to so many people recently who talked to designers saying that they should stress the fact that, okay, sure, you might be able to find all of these things online.

29:40but only the designer can really procure them and install them and all of those elements where it used to be you were hiring that person as much for their taste and the design style that we're going to bring. And so it's frightening to think of someone going online and hiring that chat GPT design firm to do everything for them and then turning to the designer and say, okay, now execute this. Yeah, that's a future that definitely no one wants. Right? Yeah, that's not good. Yeah, that's the fear. So we look forward to talking about more of the fears that the design industry faces in the future. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including the latest showroom openings and an update on the long-running Burke Decor saga.

30:32But first, a quick break.

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31:24They're also hosting exclusive showroom events, including one with designer Amber Lewis. If you're attending High Point, book an appointment or connect with your Lolloy sales representative at LolloyRugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I, Rugs.com.

31:46And we're back. I'm joined now once again by Lux Editor-in-Chief Jill Cohen. Welcome back, Jill. Thank you for having me, Dennis. It's always a pleasure to be here with you. Well, so much to talk about, and I'm so glad you're here. We're going to ask you to put on your book publishing hat before we talk about Lux and everything that's going on there. Listeners might not recall, but before Jill became the editor-in-chief at Lux, actually Sandow had purchased Jill's long-running book publishing company. Remind listeners about that, Jill, and how that came about? I've known Adam Sandow for probably a decade.

32:26And several years ago, he approached me after we had earlier meetings about joining forces. And I think it was post-COVID, I was really interested in hearing what he was doing. And Material Bank was just booming. And whenever we get together, it's just kind of an embarrassment of riches with ideas. Both of us are big idea people. And when we got together, he talked about all the things he wasn't doing, you know, and books were one of them. And the other thing that really interested me was Adam has had for a long time, the exclusive distribution rights to the private airports, the FBOs, through his company Media Jet.

33:08that anyone who flies private will see. There's a rack that really just contains the Sandow Design Group. It's kind of a secret sauce of interior design and Lux and Metropolis and all of his great brands and several other magazines and things he's involved in. And it's an unbelievable opportunity because the reality is it's the most exclusive marketing channel there is. I mean, you know, what really divides the world are on the haves and the have-nots. Are those of us who fly private and those of us who don't. And so I'm in the don't category, but I hear amazing things about those who do, Jill.

33:49They seem to have a lot of homes and a lot of income. Well, at$10 ,000 an hour and, you know, the net worth of over$100 million, this is really a group that is elite. But one of the funniest things was that Adam asked me when I was doing books, he said, I want to know why do people come to you for the books? All these architects and designers, they want a book. What is it? Do they want to be celebrities? They want visibility, licensing, whatever. It was all of that. But I said to him, the reality is by the time somebody comes to me for a book, they've been pretty well published. Some of them have licensing.

34:29but really what they want is they want that that one big client and when adam and i started talking about this it was like okay you know we were both energized by the opportunity of what we could do for the private airports and we had a lunch where i brought lizzie and melissa my book partners and you know we started brainstorming about all the different ideas so once i got to lux and i got myself settled, which took more than a minute. Once I got settled, we started really focusing on how we do this. And we basically did the first round of invite only. And what we did was we were looking for people who already had significant and impressive work, who already had this type of client.

35:18And we spent a lot of time thinking about what would really entice somebody to be part of a group book? What if we made sure they were the only one in their region? What if we made sure their number one competitors weren't in with them? What if we made sure they were kind of the master of that category? And it was like, okay, who's the best classicist and who's the best southerner and who should we get in Florida and who would be a great landscape? And we immediately had calls from the first people who wanted in. And I have to say, the funny thing is you heard exactly what we thought would happen.

35:58Guys like Tom Kligerman or Ed Hollander were like, oh, this is my client. I'm in. No persuasion necessary. No persuasion. Frank Kirkpatrick, this is my client. I mean, Errol DeAger. It's like, these are the clients that my client flies private. I want in. And what was so interesting was I had been shooting in Nashville for Steve Giannetti, a big house he did, Bliss Farm. And he wasn't sure that this client would allow the house to be in a magazine. But he introduced me to the owner who was really controlling this big build for years. And he said, oh, this is Jill Cohen. We're shooting. She does my books.

36:37But she's editor-in-chief of Lux and is interested in running this house in the magazine. He said, Lux, oh my God, I'm at the airports. I grab all the regions and bring them home to my wife. Yes, I'll go in Lux. So for the private air traveler, first of all, it's male-dominated. Books in the retail world are purchased 85 % by women. But the private airports, it's 65%. Men, 35 % of them hold two or more board positions. They are the decision makers. And our idea was, let's get the books in their hands. And once we had the first five people, we knew the level we were working at, and we also knew who would fit.

37:22And it was the hardest project. It took us a year to do it because really you have 15 people and everybody's thinking, what is my chapter going to look like? And of course there were 15 opinions. Oh, too many pictures, too few pictures. I don't like a grid. I do like a grid. And we wanted some level of uniformity so it didn't look like a hodgepodge. And then we had the challenge of, what are we going to do about a cover? Like, everybody's going to want a cover. Sure. Their project on the cover. Sure. Right. And how do we sequence it? And what do we do if two people are in the same region? And what was great was, especially because so many of these clients, like Stan Dixon or Coleman and Kravis or historical concepts, would say, look we want to show you a bunch of houses which one do you think is right and really what i was going for was well where do you want more of your work you know maybe you're based in atlanta but you're doing a lot in palm beach you want to put in a palm beach house or does somebody else have the palm beach spot you know uh so um and then what i did in the back was every firm had a bio page and we selected four or five houses that were nothing like what they showed.

38:35It was either from different regions or different styles to kind of say, hey, we're not a one shot. And really, the letter that I did in this book was an invitation. Reach out to these people. It's like, here's your private tour. This curated selection is the best of the best. And they do different things. You're going to find somebody here that interests you. Take me back, Jill, because one of the things that I'm so curious about and I would love for you to expand further on is what you outlined as the challenge with the book distribution system that exists today. So as you were saying earlier, people reached for a book for a lot of different reasons.

39:21And you and I have talked about this in the past. So some people use it as a branding tool, right? Some people say, we've arrived at a certain level, we have a coffee table book, here it is. But we don't need it to do a lot more than that. Other people, to your point, are targeting this, they assume and they hope, wealthier client that's going to get their hands on this book. But to your point, how is that wealthy client getting this book in their hand and how is it making the impression that you want it to? Well, the book industry, like many industries, has suffered from massive consolidation.

39:58Right. Okay? So number one, we don't have 50 publishers doing coffee table books. We have six, seven. Sorry to the others that are there, but let's say six or seven that I work with. And the margins in the book are so small. It's expensive to print. It's expensive to ship. It's expensive to produce. Paper's expensive. Photography's expensive. Okay, so everybody's spending money. And then what do we have? We used to have 70 ,000 bookstores. Now maybe we have 5 ,000. And they can't stock everything. The business model has always been a challenge. The business model is 100 % consignment. I mean, what kind of a business is that?

40:41It's like, it's on the shelf for three months. It's not moving. I'm sending it back. I mean, honestly, when I was at Random House, I'm not going to say how many decades ago, but it was a couple. I remember we had some major insider in economics come speak to us and say, you guys are like the movie industry. You get one hit, it pays for 100 losers. And what's changed over the years, and fortunately for me, it helped me grow my business when I started JCA in 2006, is that the publishers had to get a lot tighter. And they had to start realizing, you know, we're focusing on, you know, a handful of wholesalers and Amazon and BNN.

41:26And how do we make money that way? And what they had to focus on were brand name people. I mean, kids' books are written by celebrities now, right? You know, and coffee table books, we sell them now when somebody has a big enough name and a big enough platform where the publisher and Amazon feels comfortable enough that, okay, they've got a following, enough of a following to buy the number of books we need to break even. And so, you know, it's a challenging business. It has always been challenging. And now it's double challenged because social media, you can see free pictures all day, all day long.

42:09And I think the biggest change in the last five years is where people are questioning, Do I need to spend$60? If I can see that if I'm on this person's social media, they're showing me pictures every single day. And, you know, at Rizzoli, you know, where we'll be, you know, meeting with Charles and the team and talking about bringing in an author. It's really, we really focus on what do they have exclusively that we can hold for a while because we have to reveal something. We can't, we can't do a portfolio of what's out there. Everybody's seen it. So, I mean, it's always going to, I think it's always going to be a business for the interior design world to look at each other's work and be inspired by it and get new ideas.

42:49And I think that's, that's great. It's, I, I don't ever see it ending, honestly. I mean, I have to laugh how many years ago when eBooks came out, everybody's like, oh, that's the end of your career, Jill. And then it was like, okay, well then Instagram, oh, that's the end of, that's the end too. Well, maybe it'll last out. Yeah, and that's the amazing thing about that vehicle, and even with so much crowded media. I want to talk about Lux because another big project that you've been working on is this big research-focused issue. Oh, my God, yes. So let's talk about that. Okay, yeah, this is where I'm really going to punish myself.

43:31Like, let's do something we've never done before. Please stop me from ever saying that again. But last year, you know, you know, Erica Holborn and Bobby Bonet are Erica's our CEO and Bobby's the president. These guys are fast. They're drivers. They're brilliant. It's like, what are we doing this week? OK, new initiatives all the time. And so we decided last year, let's blow up one issue next year and make it like a national. OK, let's do one cover. and trust me, I have two weeks to figure out what that cover is going to be. And I'm really stressing. I am stressing out about it. Okay. One cover across the whole country and 100 editorial pages that are new.

44:17No template. Okay. I'm the one who complains like, oh, we have a template. I don't want a template. Now we don't have a template. It's a bad. It's bad because I have my entire editorial team going, well, where's it going to go? And what are we saying? So what we did was last fall, when I had this idea, we put together a survey to a thousand design professionals. Everybody that's done a book with me, everybody that's done books, everybody's on, that's on all the big lists and all of our gold list features. And it's a luxury report. So I just went to the high end and we sent out to a thousand people.

44:48And what was amazing to me was our respondents, 95 % of them were the principals of the firm. And what we wanted to know was how these people are making decisions, how they're spending their money, what's their priority, and everything down to color palettes, regionality, indoor-outdoor, entertaining, whatever. And then what we did was we went through and said, how are we going to dispense this information? At the same time, making a beautiful, spectacular magazine. Nobody wants to just read data. So our hundred pages are divided into every one of our regions in the front, showing houses and significant things like, I'll drop one hint, like SoCal, the average house,$11 million.

45:30And what are they putting in it? It's pretty extraordinary. And the Rockies are right behind it. 75 % of the respondents say that their clients have more than one home. I mean, it's a lot. And of course, this is really in our regions. And you know, we only distribute to the wealth pockets of America. So these regions, you know, I will tell you, Some of it's expected, some of it's unexpected. But what fascinated me was the results that go across the country. And the whole well is going to be about 50 pages of incredible images with the stats of where they're spending their money. And it's a wow.

46:11I will tell you that universally, oh my God, kitchen is the priority everywhere. Really? Yeah. By far the number one investment in a home. Now, number one, it's the most public area of the house. Somebody's dropping by and coming in to pick up their kid. They're in your kitchen. They're looking at your countertops. They're looking at your accessories. They're looking at your appliances. This is where everybody stops in. If you're throwing a big party, everybody's walking in there. They're seeing it. It's very, very visible. and also if you're interested in technology and you're interested in entertaining and you're interested in pulling people together this is where it happens you know i mean the living room is a big priority and i was surprised to see that you know everybody talks about the art market being down on these clients they're spending as much on the art and accessories as they are on their furniture and in the public space in that living room they're not worrying about their budget the words on the survey came immune to the budget there okay but when it comes to the kitchen everybody goes over budget they want what they want but and what is so what are they going over budget on what are they i mean oh my god all these new induction ranges is it i mean what what are people going crazy it's everything i mean i just yeah i just went to c next in kbiz And I will tell you, it's eye-opening to go to these shows where it's kind of unlimited everything.

47:50So you've got everything from the new technology, the downdraft, the gigantic slabs. It's a show-off area. It used to be like, oh, I'm going to have a two-inch marble island. Forget it now. Now it's got to be double that. It's got to have a waterfall. and it's got to have an image on it. And then inside of it, you have to have kind of built-in refrigerator drawers and steamers. And then there's the coffee thing on the side. And then there's the extended rooms where the pantry is not just a pantry. Oh, that's the other thing. Like 90 % of these houses, the kitchen is like, that's visible, but the cook's kitchen is behind you, where they're making a mess.

48:34Right. So the catering kitchen, There's that because the front kitchen is very clean. And then, of course, God forbid the kids open the real fridge. You got to have the drawers under for them to get their own snacks out and all of that. And the breakfast nook. And then the, you know. No, and not only that, but now the whole thing that we talk about now is the appliances are all over the house. Nobody has a primary bedroom suite anymore unless there's, you know, the coffee and tea area in the morning. There's like maybe a little, you know. Oh, and the other favorite thing in the survey was this.

49:10The kitchens aren't, you know, stuck in the kitchen anymore. You know, they expand out to the connecting space between the kitchen and the living room where there's a big bar and the wine cellar often that's not in the cellar anymore. It's out because it's beautiful. But with all the talk about people not drinking anymore. I was just going to say, Jill, tell us. Okay, 95 % of the respondents said that the homes they do, 95 % of them had a bar and a high percentage wine cellar. That's more than the percentage that have a home gin. Ben Johnson said to me last week, we did a panel the other day and he said, listen, we just finished this house and the clients don't drink, but they had an exquisite bar and wine cellar because it's like if we're going to have a party, we need it.

49:58Right. The other astonishing thing that came both in the survey and at the conference was outdoor, so many of our regions, outdoor living. It's nine months of the year. Well, so that seems to be, of all the things that came out of COVID, the growth of outdoor seems to be the trend that has stayed with us and even expanded. I feel as if the outdoor category is bigger than it has ever been. 100%. And the interesting thing is it's no longer just like the pool. That's not it. Right. They've got the bar stools outside of the kitchen window because there's that. Then they have the entertaining place by the pool house.

50:36Then they have another section with a table and the outdoor grill, maybe even like, you know, more accessories out there. but what's exquisite and we're showing more and more of how they're tying the aesthetic to the inside of the house so that you might see this kind of beautiful stone and wood and whatever outside and it's more rough and iron and really interesting materials and then you see it more fine-tuned inside so that they've connected these areas you know how it used to be like your kitchen looked like one thing and then your outdoor was another not not in these houses this is just so cohesive.

51:14And also lots of interesting things about wellness. Everybody talks about wellness and everybody thinks, what is wellness? Is it like the sauna in the bathroom? Is it the cold plunge? What we're seeing from this survey, and this is a very interesting insight, is that people want the red light therapy, the sauna, the steam, all of that. The prediction here on these high-end houses is that these are going to become spaces like gyms. They're not, it's too much to put in a bathroom. There are some people that are building and they're putting it all in the bathroom. Right. But it's almost like a sanctuary space is next.

51:54Wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wellness technology and, you know, kitchen and bath. It's like, there's a lot of toys, a lot of toys you can have. Well, that's so interesting. And does aging in place come up in any of these conversations? Is there more preparation for people being able to stay in their homes for the rest of their lives and all of that? Yes. Well, here's what's happening. And this is really, really to the luxury living reports of this is to the uber wealthy, but really what's happening is more and more family compounds. And I think this happened to COVID. So the parents would have a house in Nantucket or somewhere like that, you know, and then And the kids came and crashed out with them during COVID.

52:40Then it got too crowded. Then the neighbor sold their house. They bought that for the kids. Then they start connecting those houses. Then they have a central pool in the middle of the property. But what's very interesting is that we're seeing, when I was out in Deer Valley, what we're seeing when you listen to the owner's reps and the builders is that these new compounds and new houses that are being built, it's so many of them in a family trust. And the planning is in place. you know it's no longer downsizing it's like the older generation that has the money they're going to do a right size house they don't want everyone sleeping in there they're giving them the guest property the whatever and the family is planning how that's going to play out and um you know i remember seeing one in the hamptons last summer the summer before i shot it with andrew kogar and they had a big house and then they had two houses for the kids and their families.

53:35And then they put one in the middle that was where everyone was going to dine. It was the big kitchen and the big dining room. And it was the eating place so they could be together for dinner. I mean, that's luxury. That's luxury. Whereas my kids, one's on the West Coast, one's on the East Coast, I had to Photoshop a grandchild into another picture so that I could look at them together. Anyway, it's pretty funny. But in this world of luxury, let me bring it back to something. We're not gushing over how the privilege can do all these things. What I'm trying to bring attention to are the hardworking firms that are really working day and night.

54:26And this is a very hardcore service industry. This is not easy. And everybody travels and services like crazy, and they deserve attention. And so these books are being done to bring attention to the people that have put in the work. So the Market Intelligence Report comes out. You're making a cover decision, it sounds like, in the next couple of weeks. So when's it coming out? It's the July-August issue. Okay. It's 100 editorial, brand new pages. I mean, we're doing a lot of... Like, here's the thing. Once in a while, we get an extraordinary house. It's just sitting on a cliff in the Pacific Northwest, and it's unbelievable.

55:13And I want everyone to see it, and only people in that region see it. So some of the things that we're putting in this center of the book are extraordinary Mary House is that we've had the privilege of publishing and that everybody hasn't seen. But then also showing a range of ideas and regions, I think of balancing all of our regions. What's fun about that is you also see the common thread. Like one of the things that really struck me in the survey was about materials. How universally across the board, people want materials with patina. They want unfinished brass. They want soft plaster. They want treated plaster.

55:53New York, California, Texas, there's a uniformity in that and comfort. I don't think we're ever not going to, we're never going to see the end of like the boucle chair. No, we're not. Are you breaking that to me? Are you breaking it to me that we're not going to see ivory boucle go away? Is that what this research study shows that it's alive and well? Yeah. Now, okay, well now I'm cutting this off. Now we're wrapping this up. It did not specifically say boucle. It said incredible comfort, incredible comfort. Okay, yes. Lots of ways to achieve incredible comfort. But I'm a big fan of unlacred brass, so I'm glad to hear that that's leading the way.

56:31And everybody wants their dogs to be on the couch. Oh, see? And I want that too. So what does that mean? More performance fabric because everyone wants a dog? Yes, 100%. Yes, everybody, no matter how wealthy they are, they want things that last. Does sustainability come up at all, Jill, with all these rich people in these conversations, caring about the environment? Does that come up? Yes. And what's really interesting is it's not, how do I say this? They don't call it a number. Oh, they don't call it sustainability. Wait, they don't say it's a number one priority. Right. But they say they want things that last.

57:09They want things that have very high quality and craftsmanship. They want personalization. They want things that aren't going to need high maintenance. They want natural materials came out everywhere. Natural, organic. So, yes, so we read it as a high level of interest and sustainability, but they're not looking at it as, you know, everything recyclable. Right. But the way they describe what they want, there is a high priority there. Although they still want a 16-car garage.

57:47Yes. So there you go. That tells you a little bit about the priorities. Well, it's fascinating to get such a view into this world. And as you said at the beginning of this conversation, so many of these design firms are chasing after this billionaire client. And I get it. It's a huge part of what drives our industry. and I'm eager to hear how the book does in the private airports. And I'm eager to read through all of the research and hear more about what you've learned in the July-August issue. So I will have to wait for that. You are the first call I will make. Well, and I appreciate that. Love that about you.

58:27And I'm interested in all of this. And I love that you're diving into all of these different worlds and figuring out what is driving so much of the industry. So I'm eager to hear more. I'm grateful for you making the time this morning. So thank you for that. Thank you so much, Dennis. And thanks for keeping everyone in the industry informed on everything that matters.

58:53And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? A cool article in the New York Times got my eye this week, Dennis. You know, we've talked about this, you know, silver tsunami phenomenon of so many baby boomers, you know, aging in place and how was the design industry going to react to that. There was just a great article on, you know, that the Times did where they did this almost infographic about how to make, you know, a home better for aging in place.

59:22And it's just talking about it is sort of silly. I'll just will include a link in the show notes. You can go look at it. But it was just a beautifully executed list of guidelines, some of them kind of unexpected. And I think it's something that designers should be thinking about and really a well-executed piece of media. We'll catch you this week, Dennis. Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that because I think that's a subject that we will be talking about a great deal more in the future. And I wish companies were doing more to address this aging at home issue. As we mentioned earlier, I was at the NYCID Gala last evening.

59:55And a couple of things came out of it that really stuck with me. First, our board chair at NYCID is Ellen Kravitz from the Kravitz family of brands. And she was talking about some updates to the curriculum that are coming. And one of the things that was striking to me was the inclusion of ethical AI integration as part of a course study that they'll be doing at NYCID in the future. So I'm keen to hear more about that, and I think it's really great that that conversation is being had in school because this is an important part of the future of design education, to be sure. But the other thing that really stuck with me, Fred, Bill Sofield was receiving an Albert Hadley Lifetime Achievement Award last night.

1:00:45And he is a remarkable man on many levels. And I would encourage everyone to study not only his great work, but also his character. Because one of the things that he left people with in his remarks was he talked about how over the years he weighed what was more important, being smart or being kind. And in the end, he decided, be kind. And I thought that that was such a great message. And there were so many people who turned out last night to celebrate this man who has had such a huge impact on so many people's lives. So many people in the industry work for him at one time or another. And they all have a story to tell about the impact that he has made on them.

1:01:30and we raised so much money for scholarships in part because of his involvement. People wanted to give and show up. So I think we talk so often about people's work, but I think just as importantly, it might be good to study the character of some of the great figures in our industry and he is certainly one of them. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, Visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com.

1:02:07This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.