Jimmie Johnson, 7x NASCAR Champion: 'Has the Rise of F1 Been Good For NASCAR?' (Ep63)

26:35That is an incredible set of achievements. How did you actually get into the sport? I grew up in Southern California. I grew up racing motocross. My grandparents owned a motorcycle store and my dad ran the service department for them. And as I was a kid coming along, my dad would spend his weekends at the tracks helping clients. And then before we knew it, I had a bike to ride. My mom would run the snack bar and that was kind of our life. Two younger brothers that both have been in and around racing, but I had more breaks than they did. And it's somewhere there in kind of my mid to late teens, I was able to transition to four wheels and started racing off-road buggies and then off-road trucks.

27:16And so in the US, you have a big outdoor racing series that has the Baja 1000, which you may have heard of. There's also some indoor stadium off-road racing. And in that little world, I was spotted by the folks at Chevrolet and they guided my career from when I was 16 up until recently. Quite a lot of motorsport gets critiqued for being quite elitist and the opportunities. It's very hard to access unless you have money and finances. Was that the same with NASCAR? No, and I don't even think it's that way for Formula One per se. It is once you decide to make it your chosen profession and you want to climb the ranks.

27:53But as an entry point, you know there it race tracks around the world you have blue collar families where the father's mechanically inclined and it's something that the father looks after and maintenance is the the go-kart of the vehicle during the week and on the weekends the family heads over to the track and goes racing so the cost of entry isn't steep enough to stop anyone from getting involved i think initially it is more about the mechanical aspect that that puts parents off than it is the financial piece because my family didn't, my mom was a school bus driver and my dad worked in the motorcycle shop and then was a heavy equipment operator and drove a tractor.

28:29And so he made things work, but he had to work on it himself. And that's probably the part I think initially. And as you get more serious, yes, it costs money. There's no way around it. It's not like having a basketball in the backyard and a hoop and you shoot or a football and you kick it around. So it's kind of a mixed bag. Speaking of the money side, in terms of sponsors, what does that look like you said there pens oil so for us we have different sponsors that was an example for mr penske but for us you know one of our major partners is toyota we have family dollar which would be maybe like pound town is it pound town what do you guys call it pound shop pound shop pound land pound land pound land which in the states that term is just hilarious what pound not everything is also a pound i i see the naughty side of it yeah family dollars most of it is not a pound it cheats it's not a pound the company that sponsors us dollar tree family dollar is the same thing it's budget shopping but it's not a dollar for everything that's in the store what's it called dollar dollar tree there's two two businesses under one roof and it's dollar tree and then family dollar are there two businesses again unlike a team having a set sponsorship i I saw someone describe it when I was looking at stuff before.

29:41This is like a rolling billboard. Things can change really quickly. So you can have like new sponsors in two weeks time. Absolutely. When I was driving full time, it was very common to have one sponsor pick up everything. Now it is more common to have a five to seven race schedule with a given sponsor. And so it creates some vibrancy at the track and new opportunities. And I think more comms for us and more content for us to push out. although it's put a big burden in a lot of work on our marketing department, sales department to pull it all off. Is it better money or worse money doing the more frequent changes?

30:16It's turned out to be slightly better. Once you staff up and get it efficient, it's probably single digit better. Initially, we thought maybe double digit, but once you have to staff up correctly, it's back down single digit. Is that a good investment for them? You've got to sell a lot of dollar goods to make back. Generally speaking, is it like a$5 million,$10 million to sponsor a team? How much? I would say the going rate for a large primary is that 10 to 12 range. 10 to 12 million. Is that a brand play then for them? It is. And they're a national brand. So they want that exposure and saturation across the country.

30:55Now to scale it, when I think back to my days in, I had Lowe's Home Improvement as a sponsor. They were spending$35 million a year back in the day. So again, yes, on our team. Wow. Did you go home to your wife and say, I'm a$35 million man? Mr. Hendrick did. He owned the team. I negotiated like hell to get as much of that as I could. But it just, again, referring back to like the early 2000s where we had the peak of money in the sport, everything's contracted and it's down to a different place. But there's still great opportunity. And I think the opportunity is still growing. You said you won five in a row.

31:26Did that impact the business of the team that you were driving for? Certainly, we had kickers in the contract for certain performance initiatives that were met. And then we also had a renegotiation. Fortunately, it fell in the middle in there and allowed us to continue to change it again. So we tapped out on everything we could in there. How was it for you? Quite often, dominance in sport isn't necessarily received really well. Did that become a problem if you continue to win? Yeah, I think it worked against me. And from total fan popularity and transcending the sport like some other names, I took my job very seriously.

31:59I trained like an animal at a very polished, straightforward approach. Always took the high road, even when I had to bite my tongue and it was difficult. And I was labeled vanilla, a corporate robot, all these other elements. Some people said I was too nice or I was too good. And I found a lot of it to be complimentary. So I just kind of smiled and just kept going on about myself. The business of the individual now is such an important thing we talk about the celebration of like athletes and brand when you were driving were you in the social media era were you in the opportunity to build your i was a portion of my career was yeah and you know we i activated in all those areas we put content out but again it was predictable and straightforward and i don't know i was just raised work hard play hard and maybe don't let your sponsor see how hard you play and i just kept doing that as i went through life we share the that sponsors prize money because i'm like consistently shocked by these numbers what do you get if you win yeah i think if you have you know a big year you can take that 30 30 30 and make it you know maybe 45 in in prize money in the prize money bucket so you can significantly change the bottom line so the year when you're crushing well seven years when you're crushing like what's the prize money that the team gets for winning a race during that era we weren't in the franchised charter system so it was much different and the the prize money would change from race to race in an event like the daytona 500 to be the winner of it i think it was like almost two million bucks to win that one race wow and now they've taken that prize money that was shared across all 38 races pushed it all together and then redistributed and loaded the bottom half so that these smaller teams that have less commercial appeal can stay in the sport, have nice equipment, have competitive equipment and be in it.

33:54But what's interesting is the better you do, not only the more prize money in this existing system do you raise, but the more commercial potential you have. And then your rate card and the rate in which you sell your sponsorship for each individual opportunity and sticker on the car continues to tick up. And so as you pull yourself up into a tier one program, which we're not in yet, we see a pathway to profitability in our third year of existence, which isn't bad for a startup organization. The licensed merch side, what does that look like? People just buying hats? How's that 30 % when we look at the others being such large numbers?

34:30So the licensed merch thing is probably not 30%. Back when I first started, it was. Where it is today, it's interesting how it's compressed and it isn't as rampant as it once was. Why is that, do you think? There are so many factors in play which we can't quite get our arms around. And when I first started, granted I was a rookie, but I made more money in licensed souvenir sales than I did in driving the car. And then call it 2010, 2012, somewhere in there, it flipped and started going the other way. And the fans are still there. Our numbers are still up. I just don't understand why. So it's the consumer spenders down.

35:10Consumer spenders down on that stuff. And that stuff is pens and hats and jackets and t-shirts, that sort of thing. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Is the profile of your consumers, when it comes down to that, a concern? People seem to think it's an aging demographic. It's not necessarily speaking to the young audience who are now so commercially important to sport. There is that argument. Our stats would show that a lot of the changes NASCAR has made to the format, a variety of other changes in race venues and markets and promotion have shifted that. And we actually have a robust 18 to 24 market now, which is diverse, which is great.

35:45Not only race, but also gender. So there's a lot of effort and energy being put into it. And it's making a difference. How well is the Netflix series done for NASCAR in elevating that profile further? I think it's been great. I think it's been less impactful in the States, maybe, and more impactful abroad. Just like Drive to Survive was more impactful for the States and fans that weren't aware of and knew of Formula One. Amazing. and maybe less in Europe where it's popular. But yeah, people just love to watch Trainwreck. They love to see behind the scenes. It's been great. Has the rise of Formula One in the US been a problem for NASCAR?

36:19No, it's only been better. Motorsports is not a niche sport, but the success of one helps the other, without a doubt. The popularity, the interest, the fandom, the cool factor around fast cars and going to these events, it helps all, absolutely. How important are engineers when it comes down to those cars? Every bit of it. So your engineering team is seen as the highly valuable competitive asset, just like it is, again, in other races? Absolutely. Yeah, it's 80 % of our makeup. Right now we have 135 employees and 80 of them are engineers. 135 employees in your team? For two full-time cars, yeah.

36:58Wow. Yep. And 80 % are engineers? Correct. Wow. Lots of overhead. Good car, good driver. What's more important? Man, I'll take a good driver any day. They just see things differently, think differently, can lead the team differently. There's just long-term sustainability in a good driver. A good car, they come and go, unfortunately, right? Like, it's just part of the engineering journey. Do you think that's the same in F1? I do. Those same names continue to just march on. You moved across motorsports. Yeah, I did. How feasible is it? How different is it when you're sitting in NASCAR and then you go and race in IndyCar?

37:36It is such a different discipline. And I think you just need enough time for a fair evaluation. So I spent two years in IndyCar after 20 years in NASCAR. Well, you're just like, I won it all. Who cares about number eight? Seriously, you're just like, oh, I've done it. I chased it, but the grind of the NASCAR schedule had taken its toll on me. and that fire was fading, you know, that burning fire was fading. And I always wanted to be a single seat driver. That was my ambition as a kid. I didn't know of NASCAR growing up on the West Coast of the States. It was IndyCar and Rick Mears and Mario Andretti, all these other names were my heroes growing up.

38:17So I had a chance to go IndyCar racing and I took it in 21 and 22. And by the end of 22, I could run 12th to 15th on a street or road course in an IndyCar race. So, I mean, I got into the mix. The ovals, I would race up at the front and did fine. But again, it just got to a point where it became a lot. Was that challenging for the ego? Like, you know, you're a seven-time winner, and then you're like, not winning. My give-a-shit meter was broken at that point. Like, I was... I'm not surprised. I was the 40 million years. I went IndyCar. I'll be in Portofino, baby. What other people thought, I could have cared less, but I still went to Portofino for that one-off weekend and had a blast.

38:57or Capri or wherever it might have been, you know? Wonderful places. I wanted to try something different and I didn't give a shit what anyone else thought. This was for me. And I always wanted to be in that next level of high performance vehicle. And so the IndyCar really was that opportunity. How difficult is it to drive? Are they really different cars? Completely backwards. The best way to describe it, when you have an oh shit moment, like you have a default wiring how to save yourself in racing, you just do. and the default wiring in IndyCar versus NASCAR are complete opposites. So when you get into that oh shit moment in either car and you respond and try to save yourself, you just make it worse in your crash.

39:35And so I had to work through that whole process in IndyCar for the two years and finally got it right. I'm so sorry. I didn't even have a driver's license. You're going to be like, oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah, I know. We didn't need one in London, but how are they different? So the easiest way to describe it is a formula car creates its performance based on airspeed over the vehicle. A NASCAR vehicle, the shape and body, the aerodynamic properties do not provide the grip. It's more mechanical grip. It's the tire and the springs and the shocks on the car. There's a feel and a commitment in braking technique and techniques in general, where in a formula car, when in doubt, go faster and nine times out of 10, it's better.

40:17In a NASCAR vehicle, when you have a moment, slow down. You've crossed over the level of available mechanical grip you have to pull it back what was your biggest oh shit moment and i had a bunch of them i'd say the biggest one that i did did not turn into an underwear change moment was qualifying for the indy 500 i knew the car was geared to run 246 miles an hour and i turned into turn one and hit the hard rev limiter so i knew i was doing 246 and had a moment and lost it into the corner and i gathered it up like a mill from the wall and didn't hit the wall are you dead at that point no not it depends there's a lot of things that need to go wrong in today's racing for that to happen but ultimately there is a scenario and some mods for yes but certainly bruised up and hurt so safety now pretty good around both around both disciplines yes very very very good yeah you said about high performance there and you said something earlier which i wrote down because it really just resonated with me you said you trained like an animal what did that mean like what was involved in training like an animal for me whenever i was relaxed and felt like my job was secure i usually gave my worst performance and so i had to find a way to to create this hunger and competitiveness and my the leader of my specific team the 48 car that i drove he became like a brother to me and he knew how to push my buttons and keep me honest and through that evolution I also found that triathlon and competing in either 5Ks or half marathons triathlon would keep that competitive thing going for me and keep me honest and created a level of accountability and I was never comfortable.

41:56What's the ideal physique when we did a show Nick and Rosberg he said he got to the stage where every gram that he had on him mattered so he stopped cycling because he actually needed to reduce the weight in his legs he changed should paint on his helmet. So it was 80 grams lighter because it made him go quicker. The differences in NASCAR, are they that specific as well? Maybe not as specific. The gross total weight of the vehicle is so much more. And in our racing, the majority are on ovals. And where the driver's positioned, you're going to put ballast right in that area as well. So it's not as important.

42:30And I also think during that generation of driving, the body weight of the driver was not factored into the gross total weight of the car. So literally every ounce you were carrying was a penalty. And in formula racing changed that. And I can't recall exactly when. I know in IndyCar, it's when Danica Patrick came along because she's a mighty little strong thing that could hang onto the steering wheel. There's no power steering in those cars, but she's 5 '2 and small. And you'd have somebody like Graham Rahal, who's 6 '2 or something, just a big dude. And he's carrying another 100 pounds, you know, 50 something kilos around.

43:01And she had a massive advantage. So then they started making sure that the car did include the driver weight. Have you ever driven a Formula One car? I did. I tested for McLaren in Bahrain in 2018. Actually, that's where I met Nico was at the race in Abu Dhabi beforehand. I did his podcast and then I was on my way to Bahrain the following day to drive. Good to see you stepping up in the podcast world. Yeah, yeah. That too. Was it really different? Because your car is much higher, right? Oh, everything about it was different. So being that close to the ground, did that completely change your whole perspective?

43:35Oh yeah, the clutch was on the steering wheel. I was used to a foot clutch, and now I've got to use my pinky finger, which you don't realize the lack of dexterity that you have with your pinky finger until you're supposed to use it. I was so clumsy and kept stalling the car. Open cockpit, I'd never been in an open cockpit vehicle and it was wild. Can I ask one thing that I get so much now doing business and sport is I get so many athletes who are thinking about financial planning for a life post the sport, post their career. When you were winning seven championships, how was your mindset towards finance preservation post career?

44:11It really was preservation focused. I think looking back on it now, I would tell myself to do it a little bit differently. What would you tell yourself to do differently? I feel like I made some acquisitions in personal real estate that I thought would do better in time. And maybe I needed to sell at different times, but an apartment in New York and some other residential places that I thought, man, I love to be here. And I think that prices are going to go up and I'm going to buy this place and hang on to it and flip it at some point. But when you really factor in the carrying costs and taxes and all the stuff at the end of the day, I had a low yield on parking a fair amount of money in one place for a long time.

44:56And I think there was more potential there if I kind of kept a smaller footprint and allocated those funds to more traditional investments. But now you've pivoted and you've gone, I'm going to get back into NASCAR's ownership side. How did you get into that? We were talking before and you were saying it was a real IP play for you and there was a value opportunity there. Can you tell us a little bit about that? When I went IndyCar racing, I finally realized my brand's value. I drove for the biggest team in NASCAR and, of course, knew we commanded a lot, but myself personally making phone calls and trying to find sponsorship for the IndyCar.

45:31In eight days, I was able to land a sponsor in Carvana, which is a company that sells used cars in the States. And in eight days, we had our deal put together. And so you realized the weight of your phone call and you signed them in eight days. Correct. The weight of the phone call, that led to a potential opportunity in owning the IndyCar that I was driving at Chip Ganassi Racing. I'm like, man, if I'm going to get into this, IndyCar doesn't have a charter system. Maybe I need to go back home to NASCAR. And then I found the opportunity I did to join, which was Petty GMS. And so my former partner, Maury Gallagher bought Richard Petty's IP and racing operations.

46:11And there are three seven-time champions in NASCAR, myself, Richard Petty, and then the late Dale Earnhardt Sr. And so at Legacy Motor Club, we have two seven-time champions that are kind of the foundational piece of it. And we're trying to build a lifestyle motorsports brand on top of that, moving into other championships, expanding once with, or first of all, within NASCAR, but then in other championships as well as time goes on. What does that look like? Sorry, So expanding into other championships, a lifestyle brand around it. What does that actually mean? The popularity of motorsport worldwide is it's going through a moment.

46:44I don't know how long it's going to last. But when you look around at the amount of amateur racetracks being built and the auto enthusiast and their spend on high performance vehicles, it's unlike anything that's ever happened before. And so many people have these amazing cars in their garages and know where to drive them. And so you're seeing these tracks come to life and these tracks are turning into country clubs. And there is a moment here for us to use our competitive spirits and accolades on track to tap into a bigger audience and build a lifestyle brand and create offerings and experiences for people.

47:20The thing I just don't understand is like consumers have finite wallets. Yeah. And they are not really expanding, as we're seeing in recessions in multiple different countries around the world, a contraction in consumer spend. But Taylor Swift's concerts sell out faster than ever. There is fandom for pop stars, sports teams like never before. When we are seeing more and more dollars allocated towards NASCAR and NFL Super Bowls and concerts, who's on the other end of that? Who are the losers? I can't figure this out. Is it MLB? Is it cinema? Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't thought of it in that perspective and it's coming from somewhere.

48:01But, you know, my first response is the rich have gotten so much richer. You know, that upper that top 1 % continues to just pull away from the rest at a rate that's not been done before. And the spending in there, especially in this world that I'm I see such an opportunity in in motorsport and these guys that are collecting these cars and need a cool track to drive them on. And then, oh, yeah, let me bring Richard Petty and Jimmy Johnson and whoever else out to the track and spend a day with you and create an experience. You know, for that, the spending is crazy right now. But your 100 ,000 has turned out on the weekend, right?

48:35They're still going to drive the sport and they're not what you would class as the rich. Correct. So they're still choosing to spend their money here, not put it elsewhere. How much do you pay to go to one of the races? It depends on track, venue, you know, different elements. But the big shows are just as expensive as going to a Super Bowl. I mean, it's the same thing. Well, like, I don't know, Super Bowl's like$500. I've never bought a ticket to go, so I don't know. Hundreds of dollars. It's not$30. That's expensive. Yeah, no, it's expensive. And who gets the ticket revenue? Because in sports, we spend a lot of time, I'd say, football, cricket, or rugby even.

49:09But ticket revenue is an important part of that business. Who gets the NASCAR ticket revenue? The track owner. Which NASCAR owns the tracks. And there's another group called Speedway Motorsports Incorporated, and they own the other half of the tracks. Wow. Who owns Speedway? Let's see. It's the Smith family. Bruton Smith founded it, and his family runs it. So there's three sons and a grandson waiting in the wings. But a great family, NASCAR family, lovely people. I mean, they've just created a juggernaut, and good on them. Could you take NASCAR Global based on the facilities that exist in other countries at the moment?

49:47You could now. So both track groups I just spoke about were publicly traded five, eight years ago. The families took them back private. And since that time, they have been taking off tracks that were underperforming and moving to new markets and even to tracks that they didn't own. So this year, we're going to Mexico City for the first championship points paying event for the top series ever. They took one of the races to Chicago. There's a street circuit in downtown Chicago. Chicago. So as we look forward and there's some rumors about NASCAR someday selling a portion off and becoming more of a league.

50:23And we're all waiting and think that there's a real potential there. And as we become a league, that's when all ships in the harbor, I think, will rise more. I'm going to say it because you probably can't. As great as it is to have two families like this, it feels like an antiquated structure for a new age of media and a new age of sports. Correct. It is antiquated and there's not enough transparency to negotiate in arm wrestle over terms. And again, back to the TV viewership numbers, I believe we are so undervalued. And granted, you cannot directly compare us to the NBA. We don't have a stadium that half of our races are in and that is an asset for our valuation.

51:08but they trade in the billions. We're trading at 40 million right now. There's a long way for the sport to go. How do you change it? I think it's a slow evolution. And I think a lot of the heavy lifting has been done. We've weathered an 11 year charter system, just had a renewal that went from 7 % to 29%. And another seven years, it opens back up for negotiations again. And on top of that, we have a litigation taking place, which I'm not sure if you guys have heard about. We can spend another two hours discussing, but two teams of the 15 decided to not sign the new charter. So Michael Jordan owns a NASCAR team.

51:43And then there's another gentleman that's called Front Row Motorsports that decided to not sign and they're claiming antitrust. And so that litigation is bouncing around right now. And so what's that problem? A lot of different things have been discussed but ultimately the the way we were the ownership group was asked to sign the the contract on a particular day at a particular time has sent this into an antitrust lawsuit are the teams at odds with the governance of nascar governance from at track on the competition side no governance of how funds are allocated yes so and just in negotiation so in in the more i dig in the more I understand this just happened in Formula One.

52:27This happened not long ago in the NBA. And I just think we're following the same trajectory where it's going to become a proper league and it has to evolve. So is private equity the salvation then for NASCAR in the same way that some would say it was with the transition of ownership from Bernie Eccleston to Liberty Media? That's the way I see it. Yes. I don't know if it has to be hostile in a way because, you know, again, to break the structure, it's so difficult. It's so entrenched in what this sport is and you almost need everyone to get on the page that's that's the thing nobody nobody's gonna willingly just give up you know large sums of money and there was a process and we had higher expectations we thought we were going to be more around the 50 mark and then as the negotiations continued on it seemed like every time the teams negotiated with nascar there was less offered less offered and we negotiated our way down from around 50 to 29 and a half but also if they have the real estate they kind of own you i mean they really own you you need to start making your own but what good are their tracks without there were a lot of discussions around countermeasures and if the charters were pulled you know does nascar start their own series because they provide the cars as well and do they pull the charters and then sell them to you know essentially no name people so the the teams are like there's no way they're going to succeed if they don't have the stars to go and be there.

53:47So there were discussions of, wow, if NASCAR hit the nuclear button, it would go this direction, and then the teams would have to go in this direction. And so the other half of the tracks that are out there aren't owned by NASCAR. And you would think that if the nuclear buttons were depressed, the popular teams and drivers could go race on the other tracks that are out there. But fortunately, we never got to that. It's so interesting that it seems like there's this fundamentally huge tension, but actually you both realize the power that you both have. So none of you are willing to press the nuclear button.

54:18Correct. Or better, two did. Two did, essentially. You have the... And what happened to them? They, they're still trying to, they keep, well, let's see, what's the... Are they racing every week or not? They are racing every week and they are trying to make sure that they can race within the charter system until a ruling is made because you know it's going to take ages for this thing to play out. I'm guessing the fact is Michael Jordan's team as well. It's pretty bad PR for NASCAR. they can't be happy that one of the real high profile athletes in this is taking it so far the argument over if they can compete under the charter has occupied probably eight months in time and one ruling is in favour of the teams the next one's in favour of NASCAR and then it's back to the teams and they just keep delaying the process or the litigation that still needs to take place.

55:07Do the teams speak to each other? Is there any chance here for the class action movement is the rebels will try and get everyone on side i mean how does that you would think in there as we talk to our lawyers and say like how does this play out every week it seemed to evolve and change but it seems that a lengthy litigation would be quite expensive and not make any sense and then does nascar really want everything that's been held in private for so many years to be revealed and what they're earning it so that there is some logic around mediation but i i have no inside information or know if that's really what will happen if i gave you a magic wand and you could change one thing about the current structure of nascar governance you name it what would you change i think for me it would be the the revenue share needs to encapsulate more of the entire business right now the race winnings and the championship winnings and then there's a third category that comes in that is a three-year average and so those three revenue streams are funded by US media rights only.

56:09That's it. Not track sales, not sponsorship that NASCAR earns, not new monies that are developed, gambling in general, international rights. We know that there are races on - Wow, so that segment is all split off for the families. One thing only, US TV rights. And that's kind of the core of the thing. We know our sport is more than that. We want to share in all of these things. Wow. That's incredible that they've segmented those off as a separate revenue stream and then just include the media rise yep we're private contractors we understand the terms we've signed the charter the contract and again it went from seven to so it's directionally going right we have cost caps coming in popular sports going up i think for me if i didn't get in now and i didn't have the partners that can also see this not only from nighthead and their their involvement to our corporate sponsors on the cars The sport is really on a rise and there's a lot moving in the right direction.

57:10And the possibilities are massive. The opportunities are massive for the sport. Quickfire. That's amazing. My mind has been blown in so many different ways. I'm still so shocked by the travel. Nuts. Four regional jazz. Yeah. Put it. We got to move 20 people per car number. So for us right now, that's 40. And then we hope to expand to a third charter. so that 60 people every weekend gotta get to and from. And so you literally own those jets though? The team I drove for did, yes, Hendrick Motorsports. We're now using this charter system. There are 17 regional jets that are in the area and that service the NASCAR industry.

57:49Wow. So whoever owns that business is probably doing great. Yeah, the chartering business is a great business. Okay, let's rock and roll. What can F1 learn from NASCAR and vice versa? I think that NASCAR needs to learn how to put on a better event and the times in and around the race itself can be cooler. Is there much experience to a NASCAR? Depends on the venue. Bigger markets, yes. So you have four to six races that offer that and then the rest, it's missing that element. And a lot of the corporate dollars that are on those race cars come because of the access that you cannot experience anywhere else.

58:31The access that you receive to go to one of these events and you're in an F1 race rubbing shoulders with people that you can't get to otherwise. And so the investment in the way, and I'm not corporate America, but worldwide corporate entities are paying to be on those race cars, is paying to be a part of that hospitality so they can be in that room that needs to happen in nascar for it to grow next what have you found out as an owner that you didn't know as a driver just how much day work it is i i was the athlete man i had the the best job the least amount of hours required and the biggest pay where is the work so wait so i've gone to the side so you've increased your workload you decreased your pay yeah and probably increased your time required.

59:14Correct. Sounds like a good deal. I'm an idiot. I did not have a real job for 49 years of my life and now I have a fucking job. I'm an idiot. Where's the workload in being an owner? I'm trying to find my way in that space. I felt like with my years as the driver, I would be very focused on the competition department of our racing operations. But our biggest problem has been revenue. And as I learned in that experience, finding Carvana, if I make a phone call, I can get to a C staff person in one or two calls. If I have our sales team do it, they're going to land in the middle somewhere. And who knows if we ever get there.

59:52And so from a revenue standpoint on the business side of the house, that's where I've spent all my time. So I've not spent time where I thought I would. And it's been much more about flying to places and being with people in person is way better than being on a zoom or on a phone call, but just constantly working the lines, emails, text, phone calls, flying somewhere, face-to-face, building relationships. I had one here, which was if you started out driving today, how would your experience be different? It'd be poorer. It'd be poorer. A travel commercial. I would say honestly, though, it's growing up in a home simulator.

1:00:28Really? All championships are allowing the teams less and less track time. if it's on a race weekend or the time in between races to reduce costs. But there's very little governance on simulation and simulators. So it's moving that way and trying to bridge the virtual world to the real world is tough. And my generation of driver does not do a good job with it. These younger kids that grow up on these gaming consoles and then drive the real car. How similar are they? Visually, very, very, I mean, like spot on. But from the cueing and the feedback in the car and how you make your little microsecond decisions, it's been tough for me to figure that part out.

1:01:08Did you have a sleep routine the night before? Because whenever you have big athletes, before the big Daytona race, did you have routines, sleep patterns, times of going to bed, breakfast cycles? What did that look like? Yeah, as I mentioned, the training like an animal bit, that all built in a schedule that just made it simple for me. I've always had a tough time sleeping or staying asleep and through training I found if I'd finally exhausted myself I would knock off and get enough sleep and so hydration diet training all of that and I would try to treat each week as is a way to where my peak fitness would hit on Sunday and so recover on Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday were pretty tough days and then a bit of tapering and letting the body recover and sleep tough days you're in the gym style you're running you're doing weights all of it all of it so from for me i felt like it was most effective cycling doing the long rides my body was was better conditioned for the heat that we experience in the cars and the mental strength required to stay tuned in and so cycling was one of the best things races average four hours four hours four hours yeah some tracks are more physical than others Do you lose a lot of weight in sweat?

1:02:21If you do, you're in trouble. Yeah, you just got to drink that much more. Do you drink during the race? Yeah. We have an in-car drinking system, and then they hand in bottles as well. Wow. Three liter in-car system, and then grab a bottle or two as you go. Most of the force. You don't ever eat, do you? It's not like a drive-thru, like an in-and-a-half. No, I don't. Yeah, I'll have fries, please. I had a little door pocket, and I would put Clif bars in it. And so we had pre-opened the Clif bars, and you couldn't have chocolate because you'd just make a hell of a mess with it. But I'd eat two to three Clif bars a race, a couple gels, and then I also had calories in my fluids.

1:02:56Most of the force physically on your neck, was it your head having to take the brunt of it? Yeah. You know, NASCAR-wise, you have all the left-hand turns, so you can build a head-neck system to support that. But road course racing, you can't have that same system. And so we have six road courses, but the rest are just ovals and left, so you can support yourself quite a lot. That must be really weird, wasn't it, when you first have to turn right? Totally. Just to make a funny remark out of this, I've spent my whole life going left and when I hit a golf ball, it goes screaming right. So it's trying to balance me out.

1:03:28Amazing. I love that. The one thing with NASCAR that people can't quite see is you're at these high speeds. And yes, you're turning left, but every time you turn the steering wheel, you're putting drag or resistance in the car itself and slowing it down. And so the optimum way to drive the car is where you're actually turning right, catching it. So the car is in a bit of a drift around the entire turn. And in order to manage that and the horsepower that the vehicles have, it's really quite interesting and fun to sit there and just dirt track a car around and slide it around these circuits for four hours at a time.

1:04:08Which corporate sponsor do you not have that you'd love to have? man I would probably say my new I'd say my favorite beverage which is coke wow full fat coke wow and I only like them when I'm hung over but it's like the best I call it a red ambulance worldwide I love Jimmy in a world of like Brian Johnson and don't die he's like I call it the red ambulance like it's my hangover drink I'm like your whoop scores in the drain it is it totally is that's why I don't wear it on that day I put it on when I'm on that I got pissed off at my sleep I wear the aura ring and it just gives me bad news even when I feel like I slept well and I wake up and I'm like oh I can't wait to see my score and I see it and it's like you slept like shit you just ruined my day yeah yeah and then you actually train differently because you're like wow it says I'm tired so I'll go easy I totally agree stop wearing them yeah I did stop wearing them did you stop wearing yours yeah just have this the Apple Watch the Apple Watch is gentle on you yeah It's nice.

1:05:11Little nudges. It'll say, you should probably stand now. I love when it says, it looks like you had red wine or alcohol last night. Yes, I did. How do you, like, what's the secret to sustaining a great marriage when you're traveling the whole time and it's just really intense? Yeah, that's, it's certainly a challenge. I have to say that as my career wore on and our eldest started, had to go to school finally, you know, eventually at some point they got to check in for school. And then the little one, we have two and our youngest Lydia came along and my family's ability to travel changed. That put a strain on us and I didn't last the full-time circuit much longer after that.

1:05:56That's It's when I was like, you know what? I've accomplished what I've wanted to. I've chased eight for a period of time. I want to be with my family. And my wife and I were very intentional when we wanted to try to start our family and wait till I was further into my career. Because when I get into something, I am so focused and on it. My wife has an art gallery in North Carolina and is very focused and runs her own business as well. And thankfully, she's had great flexibility in her schedule and great commitment to helping me, you know, do what I need to and have wanted to. But when kids came along, it really made that tough.

1:06:30Not that I was experiencing any pressure from her, but just on my own heart. Like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to be away from my family. Was it tough getting team ownership through? No, it's my headspace as a team owner is so different than it was as a driver. I don't have to train, spend time with engineers, be in the simulator, recover, massage, be in bed at an early time. My schedule is so much different now and I'm such a different, more relaxed person. I think I was a real pain in the ass to be around for a long time. I was just so hyper-focused on all the things that I needed to do and now I'm just different.

1:07:06As an athlete and as the best in your business, you do have to be selfish if you want to win. Sleep at this time, eat at this time, focus here. It's not particularly collaborative. Right. Totally right. But the trade-off is often when we speak to athletes is then what happens post-career yeah and that's where it's interesting now you know you go back into it well the trade-off is 40 million bucks a year like i mean i'm straight and i'll marry him but i know that my question to you is what's the most lavish purchase that you spent on in the crazy times i bought a couple boats just lake boats i bought a boat that It was a, do you know what pickle fork is?

1:07:45Boat, like a catamaran race boat. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I bought one of those and owned it for two weeks and almost flipped the thing over. Almost died in it like 130 miles an hour in this damn thing. Survived 20 plus years in this car. Yeah, it'd be a real bummer. Put it on the trailer and sent it back to the dealership. Did you? Come pick it up, guys. I almost died. So it's amazing how much value it lost in the two weeks that it was in my possession. That was a dumb purchase. How much was it? It was a lot at the time, but it was$150 ,000. It was right when I first got started. So it wasn't overly lavish.

1:08:20But relevant to the bank account, it was considerable. Returned that tweet for$15 ,000. I would say probably dwellings. Bought a place in New York, had a great apartment there for a long time. Had a place in Colorado and stuff like that that we've been able to kind of sit in and enjoy. Those would be the lavish ones. And now London. And now London, which we didn't buy here. We just rented. but live a parallel life and still have our u.s assets it's not cheap over here what do you find the weirdest thing about the way brits do operate live i don't know if there's anything well some of the some words i get wrong fanny to us in the states is something way different than over here in the hard way i was not expecting that maybe i shouldn't say that i'm sorry i'm still like used You all take shoes off in the US.

1:09:11Very strange. What? When you go to someone's house in the US, you take your shoes off. We would in our apartment in New York. And I try to here just because the streets are used for bathrooms. But in our place in North Carolina, I don't. Like dogs and everything. And they pee and poo everywhere. A friend of mine said about San Francisco, it's the only city in the world where a dog will feasibly step in human. So I'm not going to have that about London. It's not that part. It's the dog part. I have a dog that's out there all the time. I'm going to clean his paws on the way in. I'm like, come here, buddy.

1:09:40Clean those things up. We have better food. Which is crazy to think. We do. Way fresher food. Fresher, yes. Fresher. No one's arguing with that. It's funny. Coming over here, everyone was like, oh, you're going to hate the food. And granted, we're in London where there's such great food. It's been awesome. The food's been incredible. And from a fresh standpoint, completely different. So much fresher. We shop once every two or three days. We just walk down the street and head our local spot and go back. We're in the States. Bulk shopping, not the case. The love of sausage in this country. Yeah, we love sausage.

1:10:13Wow. So Fanny's got a new meaning and you guys all love sausage. Do you not like sausage? I'm not driving that one. Do you not like sausage? This is what a title for the show. I found out what Fanny meant and you love sausage. I told a friend of mine, we were skinning up the mountain of Verbier because the snow wasn't great. We're all skinning up. And my friend's wife had a fanny pack on. And I said, that's a lovely fanny pack. And she looked at me and said, do you know what you just said to me? Not a clue. But it is. Yeah. That is what it's called. From a nation that loves hot dogs. That's fascinating.

1:10:52Can they be classed in sausage? Hot dogs? Yeah. What do you know? But bangers and mash? Bangers and mash. That's phenomenal. Yeah. oh with onion gravy that's fantastic yeah i agree with you all right what's your final one i don't have one you don't have a final one i'm just i'm so cool i'm flustered you're flustered by sausage and fannies but believe me he's just had a baby he's used to such excitement yeah that's true talk about it he's charlie he'll come back again soon well back to hockey i mean that's got sorry final one for you when you look forward to the next 10 years what do you most want to achieve When you sit down and go, you know what?

1:11:28I'd love to be able to say I conquered this. What's the next I conquered? That's a great question. I've never built anything and I feel like I'm building something right now. I was able to be a part of many great teams and great systems and franchises and their brands, but we now have a chance to build that all ourselves. And stepping into this opportunity, I've always had a vision about the bigger play and the brand and racing and multiple championships, not just NASCAR, but of course, being as strong as we can in NASCAR and expanding to, you know, the right limits there. But then is there a chance in IndyCar, sports car, off-road racing?

1:12:10There's a lot of different offerings within the motorsports world that are super cool and can help build this brand. And so it's that journey of building something that I've never done this before. And I'm partnered with people that are excited to build and see the same opportunity out there that I do. Jimmy, I don't think we've ever managed to fit so many sexual references into a short five-minute segment. Dude, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining us. Loved it. Appreciate it, guys. Thank you so much to Jimmy for coming in and joining us in the studio in London. It was amazing to do a show like this in person with an American sporting legend.

1:12:47It felt a little bit like imposter syndrome, but we always try and push ourselves and have the conversations that aren't necessarily the ones we may be the best versed on, but we want to learn more. It's all about being able to understand how this industry ticks from the multitude of perspectives of the people that we speak to. And that is a very, very different conversation to one that we have with someone owning a football club. It's an incredible sport with a hugely passionate fan base. and understanding that and getting a bit of an insight into how NASCAR actually works from someone who has been so successful in that discipline was a great opportunity for us.

1:13:19So thank you again to Jimmy for joining us and I hope you enjoyed it. Now if you want to hear more from today's show, you can do so by going to YouTube and typing in business of sport. But before we leave you, Oroco are the leaders in AI for pro sport. Their algorithms help make the invisible visible, providing advanced warning of illness and injury risk for some of the best athletes on the planet. We can all see that the demands of elite sport have never been greater. More games, more minutes, more travel. This intensity results in more injuries, impacting earning power and hurting the fan experience.

1:13:51But what if AI can help provide the solution to this expensive problem? Imagine if it was possible to see signals in data minutes before the player pulls a hamstring or tears their ACL. This is now possible using computer vision, biomarkers and AI. Orico's Agent AI, with their PhD scientists in the loop, is built on a decade of research and development and proprietary data sets for both men and women's teams. They are trusted by winning owners, athletes and agents in the Premier League, WSL, NWSL, NBA, NFL, PGA Tour and Olympic sport and backed by leading VCs in Silicon Valley and London. Orico's evidence base supports hyper-personalised training and nutrition suggestions, helping accelerate recovery, optimise performance and prolong careers.

1:14:36You can get in contact to find out more on humans at orico.ai, that's O-R-R-E-C-O dot A-I, and the link is also in the bio below. So talk to them before your competition does. We're living in a society which increasingly understands the importance of pre-emptive healthcare. You don't need to wait until something goes wrong to take action. So if you're looking for answers or just more information about your health, I'm delighted to introduce you to scan.com. They're the UK's largest medical imaging network making it easy to access a wide range of scans including MRIs, CTs and ultrasounds near you No more time consuming referral processes and waiting weeks for inflexible appointments With scan.com you can book online in minutes have an expert clinician consultation in hours and get your scan in days With no waiting lists and next day appointments available at select locations it's a fully managed service taking you from referral to results in under two weeks.

1:15:35You can take proactive healthcare steps with their range of screenings, from breast cancer checks to prostate cancer checks to full-body MRI scans. Whether you're an athlete, a weekend warrior, or just want answers about your health, scan.com is on your side. You can find a link to scan.com in the bio below, so take control of your future health today with scan.com.