Tom Gorringe, Swansea City CEO: ‘Why Did Snoop Dogg & Luka Modric Invest in Swansea?’ (Ep93)

0:00The thing that really attracted Snoop to the club was he could see the connections between Swansea and the areas where he grew up and he liked that story of us being effectively an underdog and him playing. and his part in trying to make us compete. It's more difficult for Luca because obviously he's got playing commitments. He is the most dedicated athlete you'll ever meet, the best role model you could ever wish to be associated with from a playing perspective and that provides with a real opportunity to drive that performance on the playing side across the club and the academy. We went through line by line and ultimately just put pressure on individuals to justify every area of expenditure within their budget.

0:33Huge amount on external cleaning of the facilities, window cleaning. A huge amount being like 50 grand? 300 grand. Yeah. I specifically said the quote in the meeting that I'd rather have dirty windows and get promoted. So our sponsorship income last season was 2.4 million. Wrexham's front of shirt this season is 10 million. What? Yeah.

0:58Hello and welcome to The Business of Sport, the show that takes you behind the scenes with the industry's leading owners, operators and athletes. The celebrity investor coming into football as part of an ownership group is nothing new these days, but there were more than a few eyebrows raised when it was announced that Snoop Dogg, alongside footballing legend Luka Modric, had become a minority investor in Swansea. Now, Swansea is a storied club with a hugely passionate fan base and a recent history of Premier League football, and both elite player and manager development. Getting to the bottom of what facilitated this high-profile involvement is one thing, but CEO Tom Gorringe is facing all the usual challenges of creating an elite playing environment, delivering results on the pitch, whilst trying to ensure the business is exceeding expectations of it.

1:43There are some statistics in here that shocked us, some conditions that have to be taken into account that are unique to this club. But when reflecting on this conversation, this is a team absolutely moving in the right direction. Let's get on with it. We're delighted to welcome Tom to the Business of Sport. Ever wanted to invest in sports? Ever thought about owning a stake in football, cricket or even Formula One? Well, Stride makes it possible, starting from$5 ,000. For the first time, you can now access exclusive sports investment opportunities from a world-class football club to emerging paddle ventures to the next big thing in cricket or golf.

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3:06Tom, it is so good to have you in the studio. So thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. I fall down some pretty deep holes sometimes when I prepare for these shows. And I fell down one here when I was looking online and found a couple of the fan forums. And I want to start here because it's the essence of this show. One of the fans posed a question to you on the last one. And well, it wasn't a question, actually. He made a comment saying, firstly, I want to thank you so much for doing these forums and talking about the impact that they made. So the first question really to ask you was, why is that openness, why is that level of access to fans important to you?

3:43I think ultimately as a club, we have to operate in a way that the fans buy into and understand the rationale behind decision making. There has to be a level of trust there that we're doing things for the right reasons and for the betterment of the football club. We set out, when I came into the football club, our kind of five core strategic pillars. And the first one of those is authenticity. And that is all around communicating authentically, telling our story authentically. But ultimately, the fans are at the heart of everything we do. We're making decisions that we want to improve the football club to drive us forward to reach our goals.

4:19And they have to play a part in that process. So it's a hugely costly exercise to support a football club, particularly one that's based where we are geographically and they have the right to ask those questions and we'll always be as open and honest as we can in answering them what's what's the question that you could get that you most dread getting uh i don't really dread those things i've obviously been doing it quite a long time now i quite enjoy the sessions um there isn't really any we haven't got any secrets there's nothing to hide we're operating in a way where uh we feel we are moving things forward and driving things forward and making decisions that we think will help us in that journey.

4:59So there's not really anything you dread. There's difficult questions, there's ones where supporters at certain times might not like the answer or might not agree with the rationale behind a decision but everything we do is to make improvements and hopefully to achieve our ambitions and move things in the right direction. Do you have to find the balance between opening the door and letting them walk completely through it to an extent but the reality is we all want the same thing um there's there's not one person within the building uh that doesn't want the club to be successful the fans want us to be successful and i think having an understanding of what the route to that success looks like and it isn't just spending money on players continually because it's impossible to do that within the regulations.

5:45So we have to have a clear strategy and a plan. We have to be able to communicate that. There has to be an understanding of all the aspects of what success looks like and fans play a key part in that. Ultimately, if we're operating in a way that doesn't provide a great experience, if we're not offering good product on the pitch, if we're not operating in a way where they have an understanding of where we're going and what we're doing and what it looks like, then they won't come. They won't support the team. they'll become more distant they'll become more disengaged and I think the club seen that in in recent history so they'll play a huge part in our journey moving forward and the only way we'll be successful the only way we'll get to where we want to get to is if we're all pulling in the same direction that's supporters that's staff that's ownership that's the players and it goes across the board so that togetherness it really underpins everything that we do one of the other pillars that we put in place was kumdithis which is a Welsh word which kind of means fellowship but for us we saw that as that real like community unity pride of the local area and the fans are a huge part of that fans will obviously have a greater emotional connection to players but but we have that as well uh internally the people we see every day looking at the depth of that what are you actually responsible for in the job so i'm responsible for the day-to-day running the football club so that covers all aspects football side and on football side.

7:04So I split my time across our three sites, predominantly at the stadium and the training ground. I'll have meetings with the manager, obviously all of our core department heads report into me. And ultimately it's really trying to pull all of those people together to make sure there's a real clear vision. I think when I came into the club nine months ago, you go obviously through an initial phase of assessment. What are we doing? What's working well what's not and there were some really core themes that came back through those discussions around not understanding what the club's strategy was not having clear visibility of what financial controls were in place and ultimately not really feeling a part of what we were doing those those two things had become detached and so that's probably been one of the biggest challenges over this period is to try and bring everybody together to make them feel a part of the process to understand that doing your individual roles whatever that might be whether you're a cleaner where you work in the commercial team, you work in the ticket office, you play a part in us moving forward and getting to where we want to be, which obviously is competing at the top end of the championship.

8:08So you are looking across the performance side. You are looking across the business side. You had Richard Montague in place, who I saw a big part of some of those fan forums when I was watching, but he's no longer there now. I read that those responsibilities for the sporting director or whatever the official title was have been split now between you and the head of recruitment. So why does that happen? Do you think that a total focus on that performance side wasn't necessarily required within this current structure? Yeah, I mean, the reality is the club changed a lot over that period of time.

8:42Rich was recruited under the previous ownership and the club model changed through that period of transition. The chairman left and the way we operated changed significantly in that time. Adam was always responsible for recruitment. He's done a really good job in attracting the players. And obviously my role in that process is to do the negotiations and make sure we're getting the right deal for the football club. What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you joined nine months ago? If you could call yourself up and say, Tom, you should know this before you start. What is that thing?

9:14I mean, we've been on a crazy journey. And to be fair, this is probably the first time I've had an opportunity to stop and take stock of where we are in nine months. we've obviously had Luca join, we've had Snoop join. How does that happen? Our ownership group are obviously predominantly American based. They've got a large ranging business network and one of those associates is a guy called Scott who oversees a company called Legends and he made the introduction to both Snoop and Luca and bought into the vision of the club. In terms of that process with Snoop, it obviously started through that introduction.

9:52There was a number of meetings that took place predominantly in America. and our ownership group obviously had some dealings with his team and then eventually with him. And yeah, he was extremely excited about the project from day one. He's a huge sports fan. He loves the idea of owning a football club. I think particularly in America, there's very few African-American owners of clubs and he sees that as a real privilege. But he also wants to be part of creating a winning team and a winning environment and whatever role he can play in that, he's really excited by. So, yeah, those discussions took place.

10:27We were speaking to his team for, it felt like a long time, but in reality it was quite a short period of time. And then he bought in in the summer. So, yeah, his son's been over to a game recently, which was a great experience. He really enjoyed his time with us. And, yeah, we ended up with Snoop on FaceTime in the tunnel after the game, just talking about the game and when he's going to come over and all that sort of stuff. When is he going to come over? Next year. And Luka, I mean a bit harder for Luka. Yeah, it's more difficult for Luka because obviously he's got playing commitments and he is the most dedicated athlete you'll ever meet.

10:58You don't play at the level he's playing at at the age that he is unless you commit your life fully to that pursuit of excellence all the time. And obviously that is one of the reasons why we wanted to bring him on board. He is the best role model you could ever wish to be associated with from a playing perspective. and that provides with a real opportunity to drive that performance on the playing side across the club and the academy. What is it about Swansea that makes Snoop Dogg and Luka Modric want to invest? I think they're probably slightly different. I think they're both excited by the project in general.

11:33Luka is obviously getting towards the end of his career. He's really interested in the business side of the game. He's obviously lived a reasonably sheltered life in that his whole focus has been on playing and performance and being at the best possible physical shape he could be to be able to compete. I think as he gets towards the end of his career, he's interested in all the parts of the game that he's never seen before. How do football clubs run? What does it look like? And what is that next step post-retirement? Whereas Snoop just loves sport. Like I said, he loves the idea of being involved.

12:06He loves watching the games and loves the fact that it's his club and he can come in and wrap the fans up and hopefully play his part in our next phase of our success. From a business perspective, is it a needle mover having Snoop? Do commercial partners want to partner with you more? Do more fans want to come? Do more shirts get sold? Does it move the needle financially? Yeah, all of those things. Yeah, so our total audience, if you look at the club's social following, Lukas and Snoops is more than any club in the Premier League. We've got 281 million followers that we can access within a few minutes.

12:41and so it gives us a huge huge audience that we can market to a global audience that we can market to but it's also opened up to bigger brands to new opportunities and our job now really is to navigate what's the best route for us to take how do we have the biggest impact on the club and do they give you access to their socials so does that i mean if you if you're going to nitpick which i would do if i was listening to a podcast like this 281 million how much of that is swansea yeah i mean we can we can as long as it makes commercial sense for the football club we can do collaborations with snoop and with luca wow and they'll do that yeah we've done quite a few snoop already and what are the results huge i mean we've had a we've had a record three months for retail and we're also just about to launch this new retail range with defro as a collaboration which is dropping tonight um huge amount of excitement already the manager's been wearing some of the stuff and there's a real interest i think not just locally but globally um and yeah it just provides a huge amount of opportunity i mean the sponsors we're speaking to now uh we would never have been able to access before there's we've had offers for deals uh that in one in one sponsorship arrangement would be more than our total commercial income for the last year wow a traditional way of looking at football now particularly with if i can call it an infiltration of outside cash that comes with big personal profiles and brands purists can look at it in a negative light but if you do it right it's the needle mover to release some of the pressure that you have as an operator in a football club where you now have to continue building a better business right yeah and the reality is uh i think first of all it comes down to whether you do things in an authentic way we want to be respectful of the club the city we want to celebrate everything that makes Swansea special we can't lose that through these partnerships and how they work but also the reality is there'll be anywhere between six to nine clubs in the championship every year with parachute payments we've now got Birmingham and Wrexham coming up the other side with equivalent financial resource and we can't physically compete financially within the regulations unless we generate more income so tell us about you got that great example this will come out when death rose is fresh yeah for anyone that can't see on the cameras it's on the jacket tell us about that deal how does that work so um stoop's obviously a hugely commercial guy himself uh he's got a large number of brands that he already works with and he's made a number of introductions to us through those um death row is his record label um he's been involved with it for a large number of years he's also got a death row pictures that do um obviously videography and tv projects um and we've been working with them directly on some collaboration ranges with the club the point of partnerships always is like authenticity how is that like an authentic tie-in i don't mean that rudely but like if you have whoop you have performance there's like death row records i'm struggling to see the the alignment here yeah i mean some some of the stuff we do will be telling stories some of the stuff we do will be brand building uh this is one of those it's uh some some things we'll do just because they're quite cool for example snoop's going to have a lounge at the stadium and that'll be used to invite his guests and create a space that we can create content in and do some other stuff um but uh yeah i mean that that ultimately is the business model is how can we utilize uh the names and the profiles of the people that we have access to to generate income for the football club.

16:21If we don't adapt then the club will stagnate and eventually decline so we have to be able to generate incomes that surpass what we can do locally. We can only charge so much for tickets, we can only charge so much for shirts, we've only got a finite fan base on the ground of being able to expand those horizons to attract more people to the club to do stuff that generates interest. When we launched our kits it was shortly after the announcement had been made. One of our fans posted on social media that had been stopped by an American fan who said, oh, is that Snoop's team? And that kind of shows you the impact of these changes and the opportunity that that then brings.

16:58Does that change how you think about pre-season tours, doing more in the US, having a more US brand? Potentially, yeah. I mean, there's obviously a large amount of global interest in the football club. We see that as a means to, like I said, grow the brand, grow the opportunities to generate more income without having to put additional pressure on our local fan base financially. And there's opportunities to do things like pre-season tours in America for sure. I mean, the World Cup will obviously be there next summer. Snoop's going to be a big part of that, as he was with the Olympics. He's also playing a part for the Winter Olympics for the US national team.

17:36And he's currently a coach on The Voice in America, and all of his team on the show have all been wearing our shirts. so there's a number of tie-ins there but I think when you talk about authenticity the thing that really attracted Snoop to the club was the fact that it was a working class town it was an industrial town he could see the connections between Swansea and the areas where he grew up and he liked that story of us being effectively an underdog and him playing his part in trying to make us compete It was what Wrexham did so well if you're looking at the application I guess of the celebrity versus the history and the reality of what it was to support or what it is to support a club that isn't necessarily sky high in the Premier League.

18:22And what that has also showed is, yes, there is a media side, there's a growth commercially, but that can have massive knock-on effect because players that otherwise maybe wouldn't want to come and play for you, there's more to the club than just a traditional club. So for this, for you now, if you start doing these things, it does open up significant opportunity on performance that goes beyond money just from an attractiveness perspective. Yeah, absolutely. The attraction to the club doesn't really hold any bounds. It attracts better members of staff. It attracts better players. It attracts more fans and ultimately allows us to generate more income that we can continue to invest in the team and hopefully move forward.

19:01How much do you benefit from where you are? So you've got Swansea and Cardiff in Wales, two teams that have been in the Premier League very recently. you capture I'd imagine a huge proportion of that local area how much does that drive the opportunities that you have to develop the business side of the club yeah I mean we've got a huge catchment area we are obviously the most westerly professional club we're a one club city I think from a branding perspective the fact that it's a one club city it's very rare that you've then got obviously the logo being a swan and being Swansea, it's a huge opportunity for us.

19:43The fan base is large. I think you naturally, when you come out of the Premier League, you get, unless you go straight back up, fans get more and more disengaged over time. And ultimately what we hope we've done within the last nine months is provide that hope back that we're moving in the right direction, that there's something they can get behind and ultimately something they can be proud of that comes with responsibility. And also, I think location provides us with a huge opportunity when we're talking about players. Everybody who comes to Swansea generally moves there. We don't have players coming in and commuting large distances and spending a lot of time away from their family.

20:22They generally move their families to the area. They integrate in the community. We are a family club at heart, and you can feel that as soon as you come to the stadium. I felt it from my first day there. It just felt like home. It felt like a really welcoming city. And yeah, it's a great place for us to celebrate. Speaking of the community and them rallying around, ticket sales often a big revenue stream for a lot of clubs. 21 and a half million in 2024 turnover. I just have to understand, what does the makeup of that revenue look like? What's the number one revenue driver today? We were second from bottom in the championship for matchday income last season.

20:59It's because your ticket prices are so cheap. Prices are low. It's a working class area. And that's a balance that we have to strike as a football club. We want to, and that's the reason for us doing stuff further afield, is we want to be true to that. We want to offer a product that provides value and that people get behind. But also we want to be able to generate the income that enables us to compete. So our sponsorship income last season was 2.4 million. Wrexham's front of shirt this season is 10 million. What? Yeah, so there's a huge opportunity there for us to move the dial. We're already on course to have a record year this year in terms of partnerships.

21:36How much did it cost to sponsor your partnership? Significantly less than that. I mean, that 2.4 million is our total sponsorship income for the whole club for the season. Okay, so we've got 2.4 mil from sponsorships. You've got 400k per game from tickets. What else are we missing? In terms of income? Yeah. So you'll have hospitality on top of that, about 2 million a year. We effectively have about 2 ,000 hospitality covers a game. Stadium is one of our biggest assets. Currently looking at the opportunity to purchase that, which will give us some more flexibility. You do much out-of-match events.

22:16The big thing that everyone wants to do is, like, we want capacity when there's no games. We want weddings and everything in between. Yeah, I mean, we do a large number of events at the stadium. They're tied up with an arcade agreement. The big area where we see us being able to move the dial in terms of the stadium is around the building of a new fan zone. So we've had a large number of discussions on that. We're due to go to the council we're planning in the next few months. And that will see us create a new, effectively an event space on the south side of the stadium with a large capacity that we can use to improve the match day experience to start to drive some of those numbers up in terms of secondary spend, but also as an event space that we can use on non-match days to attract more people to the stadium.

23:01How big is your content team? We are currently at five members of staff and we're recruiting for two. Because I'm just like, what we said is that ticket prices are too low. We're not going to get that much more money out of them. the value extraction is harder versus plowing money into content becoming a media company and monetizing the shit out of a global audience that snoop and luca modric allow why would that not be the go-to that that is effectively the business model but that content isn't being produced by our team on the ground we're working with uh external partners through um some large broadcasters in america and through death row pictures to create that but do you think that's right what do you mean well i i would want training sessions captured behind this we're doing that as well so yeah so there there's currently um two new videographers that we're advertising for to create more content on the ground and that'll form part of our content strategy moving forward so those those five have been supplemented by two additional videographers and we've also invested in kit uh over this period so i don't know if you saw in the build up to the man city game we put out uh an inside the swans video which is affected like our kind of internal docu-series view of matches and we've now started included within that content from pretty much meetings and from the dressing room so there's cameras that are fixed within those sites to enable us to get content so that that series showed effectively that build up to the game so it It showed some sessions from training.

24:33It showed the pre-match meeting. It shows, obviously, the highlights from the game and then what was said to the team at halftime, which ultimately led to our comeback in the second half. Because your biggest challenge now, like many football clubs, is everyone looks at media as this massive opportunity, and it is. But you can't just rehash what's already been done. You can't just do another welcome to Rexon. Yeah, and the club has been built on being different. That's what ultimately led to our success initially. It was a different style of play. And ultimately, now that is the challenge, is how do we match a business model that we know works with the story of the club and do it in our own unique way that makes sense that is authentic that people buy into and understand that is the challenge and the daily decisions that we have to make across the board you have a fragmented ownership structure now i mean we talk about luca we talk about snoop and then there's obviously kind of more concentrated holders as well how does that communication look like between you and then what is a fragmented shareholder base yeah i wouldn't say it's fragmented at all we have access to a large number of individuals that are on the board all are hugely successful in their own rights all are hugely engaged in the football club ultimately we have two primary shareholders that oversee the kind of core decision making on behalf of the board and that's jason and brett but i speak to all members of the board regularly at differing levels they're all engaged they'll come to games you had a board meeting earlier this week and they're all active and and having their input in the club in the direction that we're going in and if you bring all of the economic discussion together what it nets out is as you said 21 and a half ish million uh on the last counts but still a 15 plus million deficit yes so like many clubs a significant problem to run because that, I would imagine, has to be owner-financed.

26:21Yes. How did they come into this trying to look at changing that? We're working towards becoming more sustainable. Obviously, that's a difficult task. The first part of that was an operational review, which I undertook over the first six months of my time at the club. That's led to us saving$3.9 million year-on-year in terms of OPEX saving. How? That's a mixture of restructuring, so some of that will be people. It was a line-by-line budgetary review across the board. Obviously, when you've been in the Premier League and without those strong financial measures coming out of the Premier League, a lot of those habits and behaviours have existed over time.

26:59And it was a case of asking the questions and saying, does this make us more competitive? Was it mismanaged? I don't think it was managed financially as tightly as it could have been. no i think what happens when you go to the premier league is uh the small decisions become less important particularly the financial ones and you become obviously my backgrounds my first club was portsmouth i joined when they're in the premier league i was there on a year's placement originally and three months into that we went into administration and that obviously focuses your mind on every penny spent had to be invested in the club to make sure that we survived that was my background that's what's kind of stuck with me all the way through the various clubs i've been at i think when you go into the premier league and you're talking about hundreds of millions in central revenue and players on 30 40 50 60 grand a week the decision around whether you clean the windows or don't or whether you have however many vehicles or you don't become less important because they're compared to much larger levels of expenditure seeing a club go into administration is a rare purview to have for anyone yeah what did you take away from that experience especially being so young and formative yeah well it happened twice so i was there for four years we went to administration twice so i joined as a placement year originally so i went in and the agreement was i'd work in every department which i did for a period of time uh quite quickly a club went into administration um so they did they pay you yeah so i was it was a paid placement i was getting paid even when they went into administration yeah so I got well kind of so I was getting paid peanuts and they basically called all staff in individually and they called me in said I always remember the phrase he said you'll be getting more out of this than we will so you'll probably lose your job when we do the the rounds of redundancies for whatever reason I ended up staying so I survived that initial administration I continued to work there through my final year actually provided me with a great opportunity because obviously the more people that left the business, the more work that was required and I ended up effectively taking on a load of additional responsibility at a really early age.

29:09Was that just financial mismanagement? Yeah, I mean the club, I mean no other Premier Club probably ever will go into administration. So yeah, it was just effectively overstretching and overspending on players. So I ended up staying there, did like a joint year for my final year of uni and then went on full time and we were rebuilding the club to try and get back in the Premier League in the Championship at the time were reasonably competitive and then the club went into administration again that time it was issues with ownership and then effectively not being able to continue on the investment plan that they'd put in place and they quite quickly left and we were left having to try and pick things up again and ultimately the club ended up getting taken over by the supporters.

29:56So what do you take from all of that experience now if you're looking at the job that you do right now for Swansea and what you did in Bristol Rovers what do you take from that experience that has helped you I think the first thing it gave me was a real appreciation of how lucky you are to have what you've got one to be able to work in the industry but two to be able to to have a an appreciation of the financial decisions that we're able to make and a real kind of sharpness on is that required does that affect our ability to compete or even exist at that point. It gave me a broader set of experiences in terms of how club operates because I was thrown straight into the thick of things and I normally when you'd come into a role particularly an entry-level role you would be limited in terms of what you are exposed to whereas within that first four years I'd been exposed to pretty much every aspect of the club.

30:45By the time I left I was the sole person negotiating their front of shirt deals and all sorts of stuff in my early 20s so So we restructured all those deals. We effectively found a way of making them more commercially viable and increasing the profitability of all of our sponsorship arrangements and what did that with the views for keeping the club alive. So when you went through that line-by-line review at Swansea, you ended up saving$3.4 million. $3.9 million, yeah. Sorry. I was actually going to say not the biggest. What was the craziest? Lots of strange expenditure, huge amount on external cleaning of the facilities, window cleaning, um huge amount being like 50 grand 300 grand yeah yeah i've got a window cleaning business 250 grand yeah it's a lot of windows um so uh yeah football club yeah what are the window cleaners doing i mean i specifically said the quote in the meeting that i'd rather have dirty windows and get promoted um so that's the caption for the whole chat so we went through line by line and ultimately just put pressure on individuals to justify uh every area of expenditure within their budget and that led to some some really interesting conversations but actually it was it was a process really that i expected uh a lot more pushback on from staff but the reality is a lot of it was conversations that they were excited to have uh how much did you spend on food on food yeah for like the players training so we we cut we cut the um the budget slightly for players so again i don't know the exact amount that we were on before um but we uh they were going into the training ground and they'd have options of five different meals on a daily basis and now they have two or three.

32:41It doesn't make any difference. The food's still great, but it's far more economical. We also merged more of the academy operation with the first team. So we've moved the 18s now up to Fairwood, which enables us to merge the two kitchens. So the chef will provide food for effectively all of our players that need to be required for. So there's a number of efficiencies like that. Can we apply all of this then from the financial side into the thing that fans care most about, obviously, which is how you run the playing staff and the team on the pitch. Your transfer model looks like you utilize every single tool at your disposal.

33:17Loans, undisclosed fees, transfer fees. You do a$7 million deal without a meter, but if it was$7 million. You do a money cash deal. Can't tell you that. You do a cash deal or should we say something that does require an outlay versus your use of the loan system going to places like Brighton in the Premier League. How do you look to build that squad and where do you find the balance between what you will spend and what you will put into, should we say, short-term development? Yeah, I mean, it is a case of balance. We came into the summer transfer window with a really clear plan of what we wanted to achieve.

33:53I think we ticked the boxes in that area.