Mamdani’s poster designer breaks down modern political aesthetics

24:56It's not just a poster. It's not just social media. It's sort of this all-encompassing communication between the campaign and the people who you're hoping to reach. Yeah. It's just any way that we want to tell the story of the politics that we represent and any number of ways that can represent itself, you know, visually on the internet or not on the internet, honestly. So I want to get into some of that, but also want to frame up this conversation because we thought right now would be a really good time to talk to you. You had a small but I would say very important role on the Zoran Mamdani campaign.

25:33You created the poster for Mamdani that I see everywhere living in Brooklyn. You know, it's based on the branding work done by the team at Forge, which is really, really great. You know, it has all of these visual callbacks to the city with, like, the MetroCard yellow and the Mets blue and the fire engine red. But I would really like to understand from a design mind, someone who actually creates these assets, why you think this brand and this poster in particular has been so successful. To my mind, it took me going to New York once the poster was out there to kind of understand why people were vibing with it the way they were.

26:15And to Forge's credit and Dinesh, who did the whole brand suite, it's kind of like a love language to the bodega visual aesthetic. And so there were visual cues, there was references to the New York Post and their visual languages and just their logotype. There are visual cues with the hand lettering in the old school bodegas and how the New York signage used to look when they would hire individual hand painted sign letters to come out and do their signage. So there were all these old references and I just kind of downloaded that and then put a little bit of kind of like Bollywood aesthetic in there with a nod to Zoran's mom in there as well.

26:58And just kind of pushed that all together and it came out how it was. There were like 12 drafts before it and we stumbled upon this all together and Zoran was very involved in it as well as one of the deputy campaign managers. We all work together on it, but I think it just represents the city pretty well is the short answer for it. It just feels right in the windows. This is obviously an audio medium, so for anybody who has not seen this poster, I actually think Tyler should do this for us because he created the poster. Can you please describe for us what it is you made? Yeah. So the poster is just like, just to kind of audio, like audibly walk through a visual thing here.

27:44It's a poster. It's orange, I would say, like yellow-orange, I would classify kind of. And it's got a thick blue border, very bold type at the top, Democrat for mayor, candidate's name, all caps, Sohran, and the logotype, the kind of hand drawn. And then Sohran's headshot in the middle with vote June 24th and the original primary date off to the side. And then for a New York you can afford with his URL down at the very bottom, Sohran for nyc.com. And then if you flip over on the back or some bodegas have been hanging them side by side, there is a very transit-inspired backside to the poster with the MTA plot points inspired with the platform of everything Selran has promised to do as mayor of New York City with everything that a lot of folks have memorized and have very much internalized.

28:44So that was really helpful. I think people might have a better idea of what we're talking about now. But what strikes me about this is that I think intentionally through your work, but also the work from the team at Forge, like this does not look like any sort of political poster that I have seen in the past. I think that like there are some hallmarks of progressive politics that we can get into in a little bit. But to me, the reason this took off is because it's totally unique. It speaks to the city, as you just said, but it also, it's an aesthetic object, too. It looks really nice in a way that most political posters just fall flat, in my opinion.

29:24And also it's like kind of 3D, right, with that giant extrusion that really sucks you into it and makes me think that so much political branding is like just flat. Yeah, I mean, that was kind of the, I was playing around a lot with this kind of approach in typography and like other projects. And I finally landed on, like his logo was, like it had a little bit of the drop shadow effect already. And I just kind of just really went overboard with like maximalist extension of it. You were like, go flat or go really, really, really deep. Yeah, we had dialed it back so much. And I was like, you know what, I'm just going to throw this in here and they can tell me like, yo, this is too much.

30:04But they loved it. And it helped that it like drew them in. Like it draws the eye to Sauron because like if no one knows what he looks like or who he is, that's what he was struggling with at the time. Like he was he says it all the time now, but he was literally losing to or tied with someone else, like the name someone else in the polls at the time when he announced. So he needed his name to get out there and people didn't know who he was. But you know what's interesting to me is that when we were talking to Michael Beirut for our first episode, he was talking about the Obama logo and how that team had apparently, you know, they were coming up with ideas for the visual identity for Barack Obama.

30:46And they presented him with something that felt a little bit too corporate in his mind. And the argument there, at least at that point in time in history or political history, the argument was basically like nobody knows who you are. So nobody's going to confuse you for like the corporate suit that's running for office. Like what you need is something that signifies that you are trustworthy. You're familiar. You people you're friendly. People can trust you. And I think it's interesting that, you know, Mamdani is not a known quantity, and yet he sort of leaned into that as opposed to going in that corporate direction.

31:23Yeah, I'm just going to speak from personal experience. I'm really, really, really, really sick of the corporatization of visuals within politics and especially within the democratic brand of politics. And I think it just kind of, without banging people over the head, it just kind of conveys a politics and it kind of tells you what you need to know about Canada already, about what they believe and what they stand for with what they say visually. If they look like a corporate logo, it kind of tells you where they're going to be coming from as far as where their money comes from or who they stand up for or who they're with.

32:06If they look like a corporation, it's like, you just kind of know intrinsically, that's probably not for me. You really think that's true? There's a direct line between a corporate-looking logo and where people get their money or where their heads are at? I mean, maybe not for the money thing, but like, I think it's to like, just the snap decision to the mind. Yeah, I think that's kind of people draw that link. There was a period there were some logos and like some, honestly, just some stuff on social media that you were seeing for a while. Like, I couldn't tell you if it was like, you know, a yoga studio or, you know, the guy running for governor or Congress.

32:42Who knows? It was just sans serif typeface, slight gradient, and happy person off in the distance. And what is that? Is this a reason that so much of your work outside of Mandani, like, really leans toward, I think, retro aesthetics and, you know, I think different visual languages than, you know, just sort of political brand or corporate brand? Yeah, it really started with the 2020 Sanders campaign. We drew a lot of that from the LBJ presidential effort and that we kind of wanted to look for like, when was the last time the nation did and tried to do really huge things? And what was the visual language looking like when those efforts were enormous.

33:31And that was him and one of FDR's vice presidents, Henry Wallace. Those were the two biggest visual language draws for me in the team on the 2020 Sanders campaign. So I always look to the past of like, who's already done it well, and then like, where can we take it? Obviously, Liz and I are big believers in design and sort of, you know, the ability for design to make an impact. And you mentioned earlier how Mondani's poster really brought him to sort of prominence in a way he hadn't been. But I am curious how much you think design can sort of move the needle with politics. And rewinding to our conversation with Michael Beirut, you know, I had asked him, you know, if he felt his logo for Hillary, which was incidentally very corporate, right, as you know, was a miss and it cost her the campaign.

34:22And, you know, his sort of conclusion was like, no, we don't really have that much power. But I feel like based upon everything you've said today, you feel like maybe there is more, you know, more impact design can make, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Yeah, no, I don't think it, I don't think it has that much power, no, but I do think it has power. It definitely, given the right time and the right space, it's very much like the stars have to be aligned, but if the visual is right and it lands in the right moment and all the things up to that point are visually aligned, then yeah, absolutely.

34:55It can do the right thing. It's the same as like a video or like, it's the same. It's like a five finger glove, right? If everything else is doing its job, and then the design is also doing its job, then it's one piece of the whole thing. That metaphor totally fell apart. But you know, no, no, no, I get it. It's the part of like the communications toolbox. It's not going to win the whole thing, but like, it's definitely going to help a whole lot. And I think that visuals definitely speak a shorter language or simpler language than a lot of these other pieces of media that campaigns are putting out.

35:30For all the attention that video gets, they still take three minutes. And the shorter our attention span gets, and not everyone's wearing their headphones on the train. Or some people are driving, and they're going to miss that tweet because it's gone, and the algorithm is burying it anyway, because who lets left-wing tweets get up there anymore? Or they're not on X, or they're not on Facebook or they're not on Blue Sky or whatever millions of platforms we have to divvy up now these days. But, you know, maybe they saw this meme because it's on Reddit or like it can travel in a way that video can't.

36:03You have to kind of in the spirit of like all of these weird platforms that were on these days, you have to put your message everywhere and design has to be a part of that. And it's just part of it. I don't think it's going to like it's not going to crush everything, but it's definitely going to be that one extra piece that's going to help you. And And, you know, why not have your stuff look the way you want it to look while making positive change? I feel like that has to be true, right? Like, it has to make some difference, especially in a highly visual culture. But I would also say, like, perhaps some people on to the liberal end of the equation doubt it because we're just have been so bad at it for a while.

36:43Right. Like, and I would say there's no doubt that the MAGA hat has has benefited the right. right as a really powerful sort of design statement that is really coalesce the message behind one powerful identity i'm in the i don't know that i'm in the minority but i'm definitely of the opinion that donald trump's branding is actually quite good um and uh like they know their audience i'm not saying i love it but in the does it work is it effective does it do what they're trying to do. Yeah, it does. Every step of the way. It pisses people off. It sings to the people it's trying to sing to. And that's what they're trying to do.

37:24So they know what they're doing. Those hats sold like crazy. They're still selling like crazy. Yeah. And with like with every person who impersonates them and makes a blue version with a counterintuitive message on it, they're just solidifying their message even further. Yes. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Liberals are so bad at a Parody and appropriation. Yes. Yeah. It just doesn't do anything. Like, it just further compounds the Make America Great Again message in people's alternate brain. So, like, it's just, yeah, Trump knows what he's doing. One question I have is, what is the Trump brand, though?

38:01Because, sure, it's the MAGA hat, but it doesn't really say Trump on there, right? No. And that's so powerful because other people get to claim it as their own. It's their movement. It's not just Trump's movement. For anyone who sort of buys into that perspective, does the left have anything like that? The seeds of anything that powerful, that uniting? No, not yet. Not yet? Not yet. I think there have been people to try, but it just hasn't happened. And why do you think that is? I don't know. You know, I think there's an aversion to commercialism. There's an immersion to the capitalist impulse that Trump has because Trump started selling those hats to make money.

38:48It wasn't to build a movement. It just so happened that his movement was called Make America Great Again, and he was selling hats that had it on there, and he was making money hand over fist on it. Then a whole bunch of people took it and started selling hats too. He's like, all right, cool. It just kind of like one served the other, and that's just how it went. So capitalism finds a way. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, for a New York you can afford is like such a good phrase if you like sort of, I don't know, if you generalize that a little bit. I don't know, like you have the acronym. Right.

39:22Right. Potential there. But like you do have a slogan, right? Like and I think that that's sort of like co-opting what the right has done, you know, like the affordability as a center point of a campaign. And like, you know, I guess where I'm going here is that like what would it take for the left to find its version of I don't want to say the MAGA hat, but just like the general idea of this like central idea of an ideology. This beautifully umbrella term and idea and brand that can mean a million things to a million people. Exactly. But very much help one party in particular. I mean, isn't there an agency there out there for that?

39:57Like, isn't that what we're paying branders for? Well, I mean, not to like skip back a foot here, but Make America Great Again is not original to Trump. It was Ronald Reagan's first. And so if you want to like if you want to unlock the potential on the Democratic side, I think you kind of have to do what Sanders has been doing. what Ocasio-Cortez has been doing, what Mamdani is doing, and just get back to the roots. Go back to the roots of the Democratic Party and fight for working people. I think that's where you'll unlock your full potential. I think that's where the Democrats have lost their way.

40:31I think the rest will follow is when the politics start first. It's like, not to undersell design again, but the poster, I'm glad people like it, but I think people are responding to the poster because the message at the bottom is for a New York you can afford. And people like what's on the back, like what it says. It just so happens that it looks nice while doing it. If it was like a corporate platform, people would hate it. If it said for a New York you can eventually afford with, you know, a loan that you can repay within six years at a 2.6 interest rate. I'll take 2.6. Yeah, I'll take 2.6.

41:09Put 2.6 on the poster. Yeah, I think I think you'll get some voters. But you know what I mean. Like these like half, like these mealy mouth liberal approaches that people do. It's like, no, it's simple. It's easy to understand. It's like anyone can get it. It's affordability. It's simple. It's for everyone. It's universality. It's that kind of stuff. So if politics are right, then the rest will follow. Then the people will come. It's politics first and the rest falls into place. So just like get that house in order and stop trying to gloss over it with glitter and frosting and sweeteners. I mean, I would say speaking of glitter, you know, I've been thinking a lot about how the right has been using AI branding and sort of, you know, AI-based commercials and visuals who I think dog whistle a lot.

41:53And most recently, we watched Trump and like Air Force One like literally drop, right, like crap onto protesters. But I'm wondering, can the left count to that in any way? Because everything you're talking about is inspirational. We'll all like rising tides rise all boats and all these like beautiful inspirational things we hear every four years at different like dncs but i see like the day-to-day sort of war that's that's playing across social media is just like opposite it's like trump dropping shit on everybody so where are your thoughts on that on ai or on sort of i think countering two things one the rise of ai based branding within politics and then two going low the rise of ai in politics is It's not surprising to me and it's also very sad and shameful.

42:43But the countering of going low is, I think, needs to be met with enormous aggression and also an immediate alternative. That's the only way to handle it. Like you can't just fight fire with fire. You also have to fight fire with fire and then put it out. That's all it is. Call it out and then just give an alternative vision and just be done with it. It's like editing it. It's like addressing and offering rebuttal and moving on is what you're saying. Exactly. Yeah. Like, just don't let it drag on because that just calls attention to the original point, which is what this guy threads on is attention to negative.

43:19So to your point, you don't parody the plane. No. Right. You don't make the plane drop anything else. No. You just let that plane land. You don't make it drop anything. You let the plane land and you move on. Yeah, this AI trend, the fact that, to bring it back to mayoral, like Cuomo has been doing this too in the last week of the campaign. It's just like all AI slop all the time. It's just disgusting. Yeah. I'm curious where something like the work you've done for Ocasio-Cortez and Sanders, like, you know, the Fighting Oligarchy Tour, for example. I don't know what role you played in coming up with that branding, but I really want to understand that branding.

43:57Like, what was the thinking there from both, like, a messaging perspective but also a visual perspective? Because that's, like, a real—it's an interesting brand in my mind. Sorry, that's a long-ass word, right? Yeah, fighting oligarchy. Yeah. So an important thing to understand about Bernie World is the naming of everything as it pertains to Bernie and his events comes directly from him. So he named it Fight Oligarchy. So I was involved in just like creating that image. And when it was brought to me, the Fight Oligarchy podium sign. And like when that came to me initially, I didn't know that it was going to become like a tour and like a continuing thing.

44:41Just like we're doing this event, we're going to call it Fight Oligarchy. And it was just a one off thing. So I traded as just like, oh, it's just one off, like it's one event. And then as I figured out, like, oh, these are going to be, like, very special individual city-by-city things, I started assigning, like, individual city-specific imagery to each one. When you have something like, you know, you can say fight oligarchy or any other branding that you might be creating or messaging you might be creating for progressive politicians, how do you ensure that it's not just speaking to the people who you know is going to reach, but to people who you might want to reach or to people who don't know they want your message?

45:25How do you get outside of the bubble? Well, I think to a certain extent, you have to, with the people that I work for, a lot of it is just trusting that the message is strong enough. It's very much the if you build it, they will come mentality is mostly what we're relying on here. and with our approach in on social media I do a lot of studying of the algorithmic return on Facebook and how the graphics themselves are actually performing so I will go in to the back end on Facebook every month or so however often the data actually like gives me that knowledge and I'll study like what's doing well and which colors are performing better and like how am I placing type here?

46:17Where's the like where am I placing the subject in the graphic? With Bernie it was where is he? Am I showing the back of him? Am I showing his face? If his face is showing is he happy? Is he frowning? Is he angry? Is there a crowd with him? Is he zoomed out? It was very like granular and we were taking notes this entire time like especially during the presidential campaign. And we built all this knowledge and then we just kind of like shipped it and sailed on that for the entire rest of the campaign. You talk about Facebook and sort of breaking down demographics you're reaching. And I know a lot of your work is social media forward, visual representation now.

46:53But at this point, if you could delete the algorithm, would you? The current one? The algorithm. Like the algorithmic based social media platforms we have now. If you could get rid of the algorithm, would you do it or not? In their current forms, yeah, I probably would because they are so far skewed. But in the last like 10 or so years, 11 or so years that I've been in politics doing social media and design, the algorithm has skewed so far from like the center of where it was and like no political skew at all to just being completely off the rails to the right. and it was so gradual at first from when I started like I had the reins of a Facebook page for the first time in like late 2016 early 2017 it was kind of teetering at that point and then into 2018 it just really skewed to the right and to the point where anytime I spoke to Facebook it was just really hostile towards us as a left-wing organization and then now it's just like I mean you can just kind of see proof is in the pudding anytime you read the comments.

48:02Like there's obviously like no moderation to the point where like I think they've even said we don't moderate comments anymore. So yeah, I think I would. I think I would turn that off. Get rid of the algorithm. Me too. Because it's like whatever they're doing isn't helping. Well, Tyler, this has been a really fun conversation for us to have. We really appreciate you coming on. Thanks so much. Of course. Thank you for having me. We are back with our Hot or Not for Design, where our producer Cody Nelson walks us through a few design projects from the past month, and we give our take. Hey, guys. First thing this week, six-pound iPhone case.

48:45This is a design that was featured in Fast Company recently, and it is exactly what it sounds like. It is a six-pound iPhone case. And for that price, you get to ideally use your phone a little bit less because it is a giant hunk of metal that weighs six pounds. This design was created by a social media producer who apparently wanted to reduce their screen time. Hot or not to the six pound iPhone case. I'm going to say not because you can just simply use software to make sure you're not using your phone as much as you are. I mean, I don't need to be caring. I think it's creative. I think it's a very interesting solution.

49:28It looks like the cyber truck of phone cases, which I guess is kind of cool, depending on your perspective. Dang, you just made me want it. I mean, yeah. Look, I think aesthetically it's very interesting. I think functionally, which is obviously not the point, it's a not for me. Yeah, you know, I'm going to go with a not on this one. It does feel like it was designed by a social media producer. Like it feels like it's just a product meant to go viral. You know, so I think it's an interesting conversation point, but we're going to not. Yeah. I'm so out on all these physical items trying to get you to use your phone less.

50:02I tried one, really hoping it would work. And it did. It probably made my phone addiction a little worse. You know what really works? Just leaving your phone outside of your bedroom when you go to bed. Yeah. That has also been the only thing that's worked for me. Okay. We're going to go to a trio of brand updates next. And I think we might be getting some of our first hots of the day in here. Right. Rebrand time. We'll see. We'll see what the energy is. So let's start with Long John Silver's. They have a new logo for their chicken. It's a chicken instead of fish now. Yeah. So they replaced their fish in their logo because it is a seafood restaurant with chicken.

50:43I think conceptually, this is hot for me. Execution wise, it's a not for me. I think it's very clever. I know it's a little gimmicky, but they're trying to lean into the fact that people just really like to eat chicken. Chicken is like the number one seller on every fast food menu. So they sell chicken, too. They want a piece of that. So I would say I'm reversed. Conceptually, I'm a not. Wait, what were you? No, that's right. I was conceptually a hot, execution-wise a hot. Yeah, I'm conceptually a not and execution-wise a hot, I guess. And so what I mean by that is, look, I was a kid who didn't eat fish but would go to Long John Silver's and be like, you got to try their chicken.

51:26So there's a long lead here, the justification of this rebrand. I just feel like the name is weird. Like the name clashes with the chicken. And I feel like if they're really going to do some, they're clearly fighting themselves over how they evolve their company and their brand in a way that makes sense. but like dudes named Long John don't sell chicken. So like that's where it breaks for me. Yeah, it breaks. And it's also sort of like, I don't know if this is a long-term thing or if it's a short-term gimmick. We reached out to them to ask. They never got back to us. So we'll see if there's still a chicken in the logo next month.

51:55If it's just a gimmick, zero. Like very not. I'm like, yeah, I'm just safe. Yeah. Spit out the chicken, sorry. All right, let's go. What's next? What's next, Cody? This has to be a hot. I think it looks awesome. The Domino's brand refresh, Domino's. They put a couple extra M's in there. They got Shibuzi to sing a Sonic logo for them. But probably most notably, they updated their color palette, packaging, and font for the first time in over 13 years. There's a bunch of new pizza boxes that are a lot simpler. They're Domino's. They're Domino's. They're not full of text anymore. And the other thing is like they have premium menu items that are going to have like a gold foil box.

52:47Okay, okay. That's so barely part of the brand. It looks sick. Sorry, go ahead. No, that's where I want to end it. Hot or not, Domino's. Yeah. Oh, there's like some stank face being put out by Liz right now. No, no, no, no. I think it's a hot for me because I really like the hat. They have this hat with, they have a red hat and a blue hat, and it has a domino on it, and I think it looks cool. Which hat do you wear? I would probably wear the blue. Red's not my color. But I think they did a good job with this, right? Like, it's a classic logo update or brand update, and they executed it well. I think it looks really good.

53:25It makes me want to order dominoes. So, mission accomplished. Yeah, so this is a hop for me. I have one big asterisk, though, which is the, my favorite part of the brand is like the big domino style like pizza boxes. And they did that in the UK. JKR made that design. And that was years and years ago. And they just like didn't sort of articulate that the US. They like tweaked it a little bit. But it's very much like an idea they've had going. It's just a good idea. Let them own it in the US. I'm saying they can. It's hot, but I'm just saying it's not entirely new. All right. That's all. That's all I'm saying.

54:02Okay. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, fine. I like it. Last of our trio of brand refreshes, we have a new design for Lay's potato chips. Mark, you wrote about this. I'm going to have you explain it. Yeah, so Lay's basically wants to have sort of more farm to table or just like actual produce look to it. Definitely eating chips at my table. So they're putting potatoes on all of their packaging. And believe it or not, it was only on one flavor of potato before. And then beyond that, there's obviously a new cleanup logo you know other visual branding updates Liz what did you think though? You never really told me your take I don't think Yeah I think it's a perfectly fine logo update branding update I think it's very humorous that the whole reason they did this is because they want people to remember that Lay's potato chips are made with potatoes A majority of people do not apparently They just don't People don't know that So you know insofar as they wanted to communicate that idea I think this was a successful rebrand.

55:03It looks pretty similar to what they had before, just like a little bit more modernized. I'm going to give this a hot. Yeah, I'm going to say, look, if I just look at the brand elements, like I look at the logo redraw and everything, I'm pretty mad on it. Like, it's fine. It's a cleanup. But I do think when you look across like all of their chip brands and all the photography work, all the work is rooted in photography and how they expanded that across like literally hundreds of global flavors, I give it a hot. No AI slop here. Not yet. AI flavors, new from Lay's. I mean, fuck, I would try it.

55:36I would too, yeah. Unfortunately. God, I hate myself for that realization. What would it taste like? What does AI slop taste like? Malort. Malort. Malort. Okay, next up, we have J.P. Morgan. This is a hard pivot from brand updates. We have a new J.P. Morgan headquarters that is open in New York. The goal is a full return to office for the company. Liz, this is in New York. You're our New York correspondent on the show. Tell me about it. Yeah, I can take this one. I don't know if this is a hot or not for me. It's a really ambitious building. They have been working on this for the better part of a decade.

56:22It is altering the skyline of New York City. To your point, they're trying to bring people back. This is, you know, with the idea that if you build a building that is enticing enough, it will make people want to be there. So this is a Foster & Partners design building. They also worked on it with Gensler. It costs$3 billion. Will that be enough to bring people back? I don't think so. I think that this, you know, RTO culture is so rooted in choice. And, you know, having a nice building is great, but I don't think it sort of solves that fundamental question around people just want to work differently now.

57:04So is it a hot or not? I think it's a not for me. I'm going to very, I just want to say something, and I don't mean this as much shade as it's going to come off. This building looks like it was made by AI to me. But this whole design, I look at it and it's like, I feel like I could build this in an AI generator. And so like, I'm sure like the amenities are great and it might be nice to work there, yada, yada, yada. But like, that's just my take on the architecture. I really, I have to say, though, if you look at images of this building, the stairway, like the lobby entrance with all of those, that row of lights.

57:38Yeah, the actual like that base layer of the building is very interesting. That's nice. That's interesting to me. But it's such a flex, right? It's such a flex for a different period of time. They tore down an entire building to build this. Like, it's incredibly wasteful. Bank builds Gilded Age-looking skyscraper is just like, I don't know. Yeah, that's a knot for me. Right. Couldn't agree more. I'm going to call this the last thing. Last item this week, Airbnb has rolled out social features because the world needed more options to connect with people on the Internet. So this is basically the company's attempt to get people to talk to their fellow travelers.

58:16This is attached to Airbnb's experiences feature. Basically, you can communicate with people who sign up to do the cooking class or the walking tour with you. That's essentially it. That's it. Mark, you wrote about this. You go first. Yeah. I mean, I talked to Brian Chesky about it. I think so as an Airbnb user, social is all very not to me. Yeah. Like, I want to be as anonymous as I can. I've stayed in dozens of Airbnbs around the world. I've met some interesting people. I've met some really shady people. So I would say generally not. What is hot is that it is opt-in. It does not opt-out. So I am here for that aspect of it.

58:52Yeah, I am. I'm kind of a not here as well. I appreciate the effort. I think the thinking isn't generally the right place. But from my own personal experience, like Mark, I'm generally going to an Airbnb on a trip where I want to, you know, like it's my own thing. Like, I don't necessarily need to connect with people down the street or someone who I went snorkeling with. But I think that I will say that I think that this will be useful for a lot of people. And it makes a lot of sense for Airbnb to be moving into this space. Yes. It's a hot for others, I think. It's a hot for others. Yeah. Not for me.

59:35Hot for everyone else. Except Mark.

59:42That's all for today's episode. Our show is produced by the six-pound iPhone case-carrying Cody Nelson and mix and sound design by Nicholas Torres. Our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you get your podcasts. And we'll see you next month.