Big E on Life After Wrestling

0:03Peter Rosenberg! Shout out to that guy, Rose.

0:10The Majestick. Oh my goodness. It's professional wrestling. The King of the King. 24 seconds. The King of the King. How do you even pretend? Confirm. Not Majestick. Stay mage and enjoy yourself.

0:27it's cheap heat with peter rosenberg featuring stat guy greg and dip well no stat guy greg and no dip today folks this is special because i mean it feels very long overdue to do an official i mean you've been on the show before but an official official proper proper cheap heat with just me and my guy, Big E. How are you? I'm good, man. And I feel like our relationship has grown now that we are coworkers. Yes. We work directly together. So the last couple years, I feel like our relationship has really flourished. You know what? I was going to talk about this as well. It has. We've been friendly for a very long time.

1:11We have, yeah. Like, as I was just telling you off the air, you are still Big E Langston on my phone, which means I met you, I guess, Do you have any recollection when we first met? I'm trying to remember because you've been working with the company off and off. I feel like you had like a toe in and out. You've had for a long time. Well, I was first. I first had my first cup of coffee was in late 2016. But you'd already been there at that point for a few years. Yeah. No, I was on the main. I got called up in 2012. So this probably goes back to interviews prior to that. It might have been because I was I've actually been thinking about a lot of my friendships in broadcasting.

1:44So Adam Hopkins, who isn't with WWE anymore, but when he was, there was a point before the New Day where I was kind of getting bored doing media. And he's like, hey, are there any other things that you're into? I was like, I'm a hip-hop head. I really love hip-hop. So that's how I met Sparks. I met Sparks through, I did an interview with Complex. And I want to say Sparks led me to Kaz. And it might have been around that time. Same window. I can't remember if it was around that early 2013, 2014. Yeah, I'd have to look and see when the first interview was. But the thing is, I don't think we did a Hot 97 interview until you were champion.

2:19Okay. So it wasn't until 2021. But I think we did interviews probably at WrestleMania and in different places going further back than that. But then, to that point, then of course we got friendlier during my time with the company. Of course. When I became friends with all the New Day. But then over the last five, four years, when did your in-ring career end? uh 2022 march of 2022 2022 and you officially started doing the broadcast work in 24 so yeah the was the vegas press conference before wrestlemania 40 that was my first panel so yeah it was uh two two years and change ago i can't believe that's only two years i know in some ways time goes so fast and in other ways you look back i'm like that's only two years it feels like we've been doing this together for a long time and i wasn't on that that's right i wasn't on i i was i was very jealous i saw it i was like oh they're having big edu stuff and i was and then you and i I didn't get to do stuff together.

3:14At that time, I really wasn't doing very much. I had a several-month period where I didn't do very much. And then, of course, people figured things out, thought better of it. And here we are today. And now we're locked in. And now we're locked in. I feel like me, you, and Tess, and Jackie, have sort of become like the staple desk people over the last couple of years. Which is really nice. But we've added graves recently as well. Recently. And Wade, of course, has done a lot of great stuff. I'm not usually out there with Wade these days, but he's done a great job as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, I love, the nice part is I think we have a really great group and I love everyone that we work with.

3:49You and I, we've just talked about having a more like this, we know this is the roster. And there's been a lot of moving parts. And that's not to say I want to push anyone out, but it's just nice to have a cadence. Who do you want out? Let's get him out right now. You know what I'm saying? Don't do this. Let's name names. Don't do this. Graves gets on my damn nerves. Let's get Graves up out of here. No, Graves is brilliant. Graves has recently been talking shit about me on commentary whenever he can, which I really appreciate. The thing is, though, you're the easy target because everyone knows you'll play ball.

4:20You're not from the—you didn't take bumps. I didn't take bumps. I'm the outside guy. No, I love it. No, I truly—I texted him recently and thanked him because when I'm not on the show, I'm not on Raw. So for him to take shots on me on Raw, I love that. I love feeling—listen, the reason I do this stuff is because I love it. So when you're at home and you're watching the show and you're referenced, I'm like, ah, I love being part of this universe. Which I get. It's interesting. I have the opposite reaction. When I'm at home watching and I'm not expecting to hear my voice or hear my name mentioned, I'm always like, oh, I bristle.

4:51I'm disgusted. What's wrong with you? Well, it breaks the wall of this is me on one end of the screen. And I am here watching a piece of entertainment that I do not plan to be involved in. And it's weird when that chasm between the two worlds is broken and now I'm being inserted into that world. Yes. I don't like it. Well, I told you this over text and I'll tell you in person while everyone's listening. You have gotten so good as a broadcaster. Thanks, man. It has been an incredible evolution since the very beginning. If you were to go back and watch, I say this respectfully, and I compliment you all the time.

5:29If you go back and watch your first, the Vegas one, you're going to be like, wow, I literally didn't know what I was doing. Well, I didn't. I didn't. And I think too often in our industry, people want to jump on talent or performers too early. When you have someone come up, and this is the first time they're doing this. Look, I'm very experienced having a mic in my hand, cutting a promo. It is not the same muscle. And it's something that we talked about when we have talent on doing the pre-shows and post-shows. is so we talked about it's very easy and more natural when we have people on our post shows celebrating their victory, talking about their loss.

6:06But then I don't want to name names. We've had some, especially younger talent. We had some talent on the last PLE and they were asked to essentially be analysts. And afterwards we talked and I was like, this is not the best light to put these talent in. Because one, in your career, you're so invested in your stuff, in your program, in your feud, in your promo, all the things that you're doing. I had to tell our bosses that oftentimes, and this is not because you don't care about the rest of the show, but oftentimes as talent, you're not watching the rest of the show. You're not involved in it.

6:39And even just the aspect of let me sit on a desk and having the ability to eloquently talk about what's going on in the show. So this is a muscle I just didn't really exercise as talent. And that's the point I'm making. Like, you're completely right. So it's been amazing to see not everyone would turn into what you have turned into. You happen to really have it. Like, it wasn't a gift. I knew you could cut a promo. We know you know the business. When you get up there and you do your first thing, there's no, as much as I like you, I don't watch you go, oh, I know for a fact he's going to get this.

7:11Because I've seen people get up there. I've seen veterans of the industry don't get it. But you just, as time has gone on, and I noticed it yesterday when we were doing our show for, we did a preview show for Night of Champions, which of course we're going to get to here today on Cheap Heat Live. But when we were breaking it down, I pride myself on being so comfortable on a microphone and in front of a camera. And when I looked over to you talking like the first time, I was like, oh man, he's comfortable. I got to get to where he, I'm being a little bit overly, I'm being a little bit overly polished here.

7:45You're like, you had this comfortable, real, like we're having a real conversation. And I was like, I need to get more like you. Oh, you stopped. I swear. That's how good you were. Well, it's interesting, too, because I often think the setup as well leads into the way the conversation feels. So sitting down in those comfortable chairs just lends to that more conversational vibe. But I really appreciate you. But I think a lot of that comfortability is being around. You and Tess have been doing this at such a high level for so long, for decades. Very kind of. And being around you, being able to work with you, I've been able to learn, oftentimes just through osmosis and being able to better understand it.

8:24So just being around polished broadcasters, same thing, like I do the raw recaps with Sam and Megan. No, and in spite of that, you still continue to grow. Okay, speaking of Sam, I'm glad you brought up Sam. So you're going to do an interview for Not Sam after this, right? And I asked you what time, and your answer was... Whenever. Sam said whenever. So I told Sam the schedule. It's like, hey, I got to do Hot 97 in the morning. I'm hopping over to do Sirius with Rosenberg. And then afterwards, is there a certain time I can drop by? It was whenever. And I told him, I don't know how long I'll be sitting down with Rosenberg.

9:00It'll be for whenever. I was like, what a life, just to pop by whenever. And I said to E, I blew some... I'm not going to name names. but I blew minds in the room when I said, including mine, including when I said, Sam is in my phone as Sam, the Jew Roberts. Let me just say to people out there who are not Jewish, that's not an appropriate thing to have in your phone. Okay. It's, it's, I don't want to liken it to an N word pass, which doesn't really exist, but you don't want to just put the Jew in your phone. Okay. Don't do that. As a Jew, I felt comfortable. Sam had a Jew fro when I met him. So I put Sam, the Jew Roberts in my phone.

9:40because I didn't know. We were brand new. I didn't know who he was. This is forever ago. Yeah. And then I found out like the next time I met him or whatever, he's not Jewish. And when I told you guys that, the shock and awe was crazy. Yeah. I'm trying to walk a thin line here. Yeah, I know. Why did you assume he was? What traits made you think he was Jewish? But I remember the fro as well. Of course. And just know, I mean, he's here in New York. He's here in New York. He's got a Jew fro. He likes to talk. he's got a tone about he has a very you know it's not sam wrestling here yeah emilio outside come on in emilio no but no you're very you're very right so i don't want to jump to conclusions but i too thought the same thing so so i eventually changed it and he was no longer sam the jew roberts in my phone and and what the joke i was trying to make was if you want the ultimate proof that sam is not Jewish.

10:34It is the fact that he is married with three children and Big E could say when should I come over? And Sam goes, whatever. Not a Jewish married man thing to say. That is not how it rolls in my house with one Jewish woman who's, when I say Jewish, I mean in actual bloodline only. But it's in there. It's in the DNA. I mean, you can't just be whatever. There's going to be a schedule. The baby has to do this. There's going to be that. But Sam just lives this Gentile life free. He can do it all. Whatever. Jess will roll with it. Why does Jess care? Jess is only working, taking care of three children, doing all the things.

11:14Right. What a man he is. And the kids, too. How do you just hop by whenever? I don't. Listen, you were with Kaz earlier. Yeah. Kaz has two young children. He's a great father. No one is outside more than this man. Have you ever seen anything like it? He just showed me he was at the World Cup with Mero. Bro, he was at the World Cup the night before that. I was making fun of him for being outside so much at the Jay-Z celebration. Before I blink, the next time I open my eyes, he's in the stands at the World Cup. Of course he is. You know how annoying it is to go to the World Cup? How much work it seems to take to have to get to go to the World Cup?

11:52He was at the parade. He traveled with the team. I mean, the man. You know like Mr. Wrestling and Mr. Wrestling 2? Yeah. I believe Kaz and Mero are Mr. Outside and Mr. Outside, too. The both of them are so outside. And Mero, forget it, Mero has five, four, I think four kids. That's a lot of kids. And outside. Listen, props to y 'all. I try to get outside. The last couple of weeks I've been pretty outside. So here's how we're setting the table today. This was just an intro. You know, how's the back of your belly for a sleigh ride? What's going on, Biggie? Check it in. I like it. I want to open the phone lines for the day, at any point for anyone to check in with your thoughts, your questions.

12:37You just want to give love to Big E because we're going to talk about his book, How I Got Over, In and Out, Side of the Ring. Correct? Yeah, that's right. That's right? The full title? I bought it. No, I mean, there are other words, but - No, no, it's How I Got Over, parentheses. Yeah, Getting Over Depression and Psychosis and Finding Joy in and Out of the Ring. Something like that. It's a lot of words. It is a lot of words. Just stick with the How I Got Over. It's How I Got Over, which, by the way, is a great name for so many different reasons. Thank you, and we'll get into it. No, it's really good.

13:06People may not even realize how many ways it's good. But we're going to get into that. But the phone line is 877-344-4893. From now until 2 o 'clock, if you want to talk anything pro wrestling, of course, but specifically you want to show love to E, ask questions, maybe you have a longstanding beef with him. I don't care. Whatever you have for Big E, it's very possible. You've been so many beefs over the years. maybe people want to exact their revenge on the air so we'll talk to you guys throughout the day but also I want to talk to you about the book we'll talk some about Night of Champions just about life in general some of the things that you do get into in the book you have obviously been very forthcoming about the challenges in your life mental, physical recently of course with the injury back in 2022 so there's a lot of different things we're going to get into and you're down to hang out for as long as we have you Sam doesn't care This hand does not care.

13:58Yeah, let's do it on there. I'm keeping you. I'm keeping you until 2 o 'clock. So he's sticking around for the show. We got Big E here for the show. Hey, Emilia Sparks is here. Hi. How you doing? I am the definition of not being outside either. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is very true. You are beyond. This man is inside. This man stays inside. You make me look like Kaz. The reason why I came here was because of E-Tour. I know. I figured you... Well, it was your idea. You said E-Tour is doing this book stuff. Yeah. We should do a proper thing finally. Yeah. Bless you. and I'm glad you said that because now here we are.

14:27I'll forever rep my guys. You really do. And it's perfect for me and E because we're only doing three shows together this week. It is a lot this week. We have a lot. We did a Thursday ESPN preview show then tomorrow we'll do the countdown show and the post show. So we'll be together all day in Stanford and then we're doing today. But I got to tell you, I saw a clip from your interview from Chris Van Vliet that I realized, it made me realize how little I had ever like talked to you about the moment of the injury and i found it really interesting that you in the moment in which you were injured in that belly-to-belly suplex uh gone awry that you didn't think it was that bad in the first moment no because you know you do the oh let me wiggle my fingers and toes all good uh i didn't go out at all so i didn't have a concussion um i didn't have any searing like nerve pains you know you don't you check in with your body real quick yeah not that bad i i felt like okay maybe there's some contusion or this is how little i know about neck injuries i thought it was something like that but i you know and especially with bone if there's no nerve stuff and there's no muscle tears or ligament tears and it's just a bone break they're really you don't there's not a lot of pain um so yeah i really didn't think it was that bad in the moment i just knew i should probably stay down and honestly when they started like checking on me and like calling people for the stretcher.

15:53It's like this, this feels like we're doing a lot. This, this feels like we're, but I get it. You know, you want to be, you know, precautious. But you could have moved in theory. I could have moved. I felt, I knew there was something going on with my neck. So I think the idea of standing up and walking around, I was like, this probably isn't the best idea. But I didn't, I didn't think it was that bad. And so who was the ref that night? Oh, that is a great question. I don't remember. I keep replaying this thing in my head over and over, and I don't remember. Because the thing is, that's the last thing I take in the matter.

16:28That was the last thing I was supposed to take anyways. So I'm on the floor, and everything else is just happening in the ring. Oh, you're supposed to be done at that point no matter what. I'm supposed to be done. So I feel very divorced from what's going on in the ring anyways, because I'm checked out. I'm done. And so how quickly does medical come talk to you? It was super quick. So Dr. Michelle Piscasio, a fellow Tampanian. So she sits. We always have a doc or a trainer. That's a thing, huh? Yeah, someone from Tampa. Wow. I was today years old. Tampanian. All right, so doc from Tampa comes over.

16:58So she's sitting in around like that bellkeeper area where Berkeley usually sits. So she's really close. And that's one of the great things that WWE does. And I think any professional wrestling company should have is have someone who is trained, whether it's a trainer or a doctor ringside. so they're not looking at a monitor, but they're getting all the visuals. So as soon as something happens, they're able to identify it and take the proper precautions. So she saw it right away and I felt like before, I felt like as soon as I landed, it felt like she was by my side. It was very, very quick. So she was there and then just started kind of coordinating everything.

17:32But I have to give so much credit to her, the EMTs, to everyone else because everyone else acted so quickly and acted so smartly. And the beautiful thing is, I kind of joke that if you're going to break your neck as a WWE employee anywhere, do it in Birmingham. That is true. That's where Dr. Jeff Dugas, who is, I believe, our head of medical, that's where he's at. They have such a great, renowned orthopedic clinic, and they have great spine specialists there, too. And the arena in Birmingham, I think, is like a mile from the hospital. It was such a quick ride to the hospital. So all in all, I feel like from the time I landed on the top of my head to the time doctors were seeing me to get me scanned and everything.

18:13It was very, very quick. Do you remember any other interactions between it happening and getting to the hospital? Not really. It was, I remember being, I mean, I was awake the whole time, but it was so fast. So I remember being placed on the stretcher, being, you know, I'm starting around the bowl. They're pushing me through to the back. And I just want, I think I did the old like thumbs up. Hey, I'm good. I didn't want people to worry about me. I'm all right. You know, this is not life threatening. I'm not paralyzed. We're all good here. And then I was quickly shuttled through Gorilla into the back and they had an ambulance already waiting up the ramp.

18:51So it was just very efficient, very quick, no delays at all. I remember I was sitting, Dipperstein and I were having dinner in LA at the Focacta club that Dip is a member of that I'm forgetting the name of, where you get like overpriced crudités. Soho House? Not Soho House. It's a newer, very LA version of that though. Similar deal. And you, you know, fancy people sit around eating overpriced food and we were sitting around having a beverage or whatever. And, you know, my brain is always off on wrestling time when I'm in L.A. So it's five o 'clock or whatever, you know, nine, six o 'clock L.A.

19:33time. And my phone, I started getting text messages that like, oh, did you see E? And then I remember us seeing the clip on social media. And it's just the fortunate part was you were so this sums up you in a nutshell. you literally allowed people to find out that you were okay so quickly that you really prevented any sort of like massive worry because i like a hush fell over our table of like oh god um and you were already friendly with dip at that time too like we were we were just like this this is awful and then very quickly we found out you were doing okay amila you guys are very close. Where were you when you heard of the injury?

20:19I was watching TV live. I was watching. You're a wrestling fan for God's sake. Of course. We think it's great. You're not missing SmackDown. No. Especially when he's doing it. That's right. My man. I was watching it constantly. So when he landed first, we were like, alright, that's a little janky but let's see what happens. Then he wasn't getting up. Then they panned the camera and I was like, oh, okay. This is a little... Then my phone blew up. Then the first person that hit me up from WWE was Skinny Nikki. Yeah. And then Kofi texted me. And he was like, once we get more information from the hospital, I'll give you a call.

20:52And then literally like four hours later, like you said, he does this really good thing where it's like, hey, no, I'm good. So how quickly does it cross your mind? That's probably it for me, though. Actually, the first thing. So when the doctor comes over to me immediately, I kind of joke, I need to find a new job. Were the first words I said as soon as she came over. And I was half joking. So initially, the plan was once I got to the hospital, got all the tests and everything, docs were actually fairly optimistic. They told me, look, you were very close to things being very, very bad. Stroke, paralysis, death.

21:26You were this close to all the above. So, you know, at the moment, you know, that was definitely something that was, you know, top of mind. But initially, the plan, I think it was either four weeks or six weeks of being in a brace and then we'll get the scans. But their thought was, look, if this thing heals the way we think it should heal after four to six weeks, if it if it forms new bone and your C1 looks great, then all right, you'll be there's no nerve stuff. There's no they also test for ligament damage. So oftentimes there's I believe it's the transverse ligament. Sometimes when the neck and I think it's I think whenever the neck is broken or maybe just to see one, sometimes there can be damage to the transverse ligament.

22:05So you might need surgery just to repair that ligament because they have, and I thought it's a bit of a silly name for something so serious, but you can have bobblehead. Essentially, your head, it's not stable. If that ligament is damaged, you can't really keep your head straight up and down. Great wrestling gimmick, but not what you want. No, not at all. Not at all. You need that thing just to stay up. My God, it's bobblehead. But you don't want that every day. No. So I was like, okay, the ligament's good. So they tested to make sure that was good. So initially the thought was, hey, after a month or a month and a half, there might be a potential for you to be good and return to the ring.

22:38But then the issue was my C1 wasn't ossifying. So it's broken in two places in what's called a burst fracture or a Jefferson fracture. And oftentimes a lot of people who have, you know, who die when they're diving into a shallow pool or they think there's water in the pool and they end up just kind of crashing at first. That happened to a family friend, yeah. And it happens. There was, I believe, a tight end at Oregon, a really talented player a few years ago, who died that way. Christopher Reeve as well. Yeah, Christopher Reeve. That's how he died. Yeah, so it can be very, very scary. So that was the issue was they realized it wasn't healing the way they wanted.

23:13Instead of forming new bone in between those two breaks, it was forming like cartilage, which is fine for my day-to-day life. But to return to the ring and to deal with the rigors of taking bumps, that just was not acceptable. And then I was really grateful. I had TJ Wilson who had to me an even worse neck injury. Like he's fortunate to be alive. He had, I think what they call a hangman's fracture where he was almost decapitated internally from his injury. So he connected me with Dr. Juan Uribe, I believe in Arizona. And he looked at my scans and like the way this man spoke to me. Awesome doctor.

23:49But he was almost pleading for me. like look even if you someone clears you or you get to a point where eventually your neck does look better like please and when i eventually i took some time i thought about and i got back to him and i said you know what i think you're right i know what's up he he like i felt this sigh of relief from a man who is who is at the top of his profession as a spine specialist and then talking to a few other doctors i thought man i and it's an analogy i make in the book but it often it felt like you live in a dangerous neighborhood. You know, there are dangers. You hear gunshots from time to time, but you know, it never happens to you.

24:24Maybe you, it happened a couple of doors down, but eventually when a bullet comes through your front door and whizz it like nicks your ear, you realize, Oh, this danger is real and can come from me. So my thought is, man, I'm able to come out of this thing unscathed. I have no issues. I'm not in pain. I talked to, we have one of, one of the medical professionals we have on staff. She broke her neck in high school. She's like, 20 years later, she still deals with constant headaches. And I thought, man, like I'm able to avoid even that. I don't have any atrophy. I don't have any issues. So the idea of getting back in the ring now, you know, in my late thirties, as the injuries start to pile up, you know, as you get older, it just, for me, the, the, the gamble wasn't worth it.

25:06Um, it seems like more recently you made like a more final decision. Like it was, you know, it was kind of a never say never. and it seems like recently, at least from being around you, it's gone into full never. I don't know if it's the getting engaged part and seeing that there's more to your life and all these things. But am I right? Did it transition from like, oh, maybe I do one thing possibly to nah? Yeah, no, it's, I, in much the Cena way, Cena's been very much like when I retire, that's retirement with a capital R. And oftentimes, you know, in combat sports and pro wrestling, retirements mean nothing and they're so flimsy It's just like, hey, I'll take a break for a little bit and then I'll come back.

25:48When I said I'm retired, my thought was when I say I'm retired, I want to mean it and be done with it. And that's it. So I thought, you know, there was one point where I was like, maybe I want to leave the door open for a Royal Rumble. Maybe one more match, whether, you know, if the Goldberg match was on the table. And obviously, you know, that's dead and gone. So I thought, OK, maybe for something special, possibly. But to your point, man, there's a lot of calculus I was making. One, I had always seen the old timers and so many of them are hobbled. So many of them who aren't even that old, who don't move well.

26:23And I told myself, man, I put my body through a lot. I don't want that to be me. I want to be able to live my life gracefully in my 40s, 50s and beyond. And already I came into the wrestling business playing college football in two and a half years at Iowa. Tore my left ACL, tore my right ACL, broke my right patella in half, tore my left pec. It's like I put my body through a lot. I also ended up herniating a disc in my neck a couple years prior to the broken neck. So it's also wanting to escape all the football, amateur wrestling, pro wrestling, everything I've done to my body. I want to get out feeling good, being mobile.

26:58And then also thinking about my lady, man, the idea of her. She already worries enough about me getting on planes and doing this stuff, going international. The idea of getting back in the ring with a neck that has already been severely broken, even if someone were to clear me, for me, it just wasn't worth it. Do you ever think about how crazy it is, though? Like, what a blessing it is that you got to have your true singles run, win Money in the Bank, win the world title. It all happened before. Like, you really can't have many regrets on the table. Yeah, it feels like kismet in many ways. But I feel very grateful because a guy like me, a lot of guys like me, super talented guys, never get an opportunity at the world championship.

27:38And the fact that I got to have this magical run, I'm so grateful for the New Day run. But then to get to have the singles run, to win a second IC title, to get to become a world champion, you know, doing the stuff with Seth. You know, I dropped the title to Brock. I felt like, man, you know what? If I were to call it, I got to be a world champion. I got to be in a tag team. The WWE itself named its greatest tag team of all time. Second ever NXT champion. And for a guy like me who is not six feet tall, I don't come from a wrestling background, to have been able to do what I've been allowed to do in this industry, I'm so grateful.

28:15So it felt like, you know what, if I'm going to put a bow on the career, this isn't a bad time to do it. You can pre-order Big E's book, How I Got Over, and lots of other words right now. I pre-ordered the hardcover, beautiful, beautiful hardcover. Can't wait for it. we are going to do a lot more with Big E we're also going to talk to you guys 877-344-4893 if you have questions or just want to give Big E his flowers, it's GP Live Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7

28:47I can't find my confidence I can help follow me

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29:26It's Jeep Heat with Peter Rosenberg. featuring Stat Guy Greg and Dip. All right, you got to let the verse play a little bit. Did you tell them to do this? Okay.

29:45If you want quintessential, like what music plays in the heart of a backpacker from the 90s, it's this song. Shout out to Rest in peace Tame One by the way Shout out to Elder Sensei This is straight Newark, New Jersey Sure is But it's like Straight nerdy White boy Backpack rap Not that only Nerdy white boys Like this But we were a big Consumer of the genre Yeah But that's what Like That's what Really I fell in love With hip hop I love backpack And that's like When me and Sparks Like first connected Was just talking about Hip hop We gotta get together Just talk hip hop Yeah That's some of my Favorite conversations Even with you Because we very rarely get to do it.

30:30And, you know, one of the things that he told me when we first started kicking it was my dad used to break all my hip-hop CDs and would throw them away, right? Yeah, no, I couldn't listen. We were just gospel in the household. That's all, gospel, maybe like classical music. We were not hip-hop at all. In fact, you remember, do you ever watch all that? I remember all that. Okay, you're too old. So when all that was popping, you know, had the hip-hop intro, which was dope. We couldn't even, like, I had to turn the channel. Anytime my dad walked by, we had to turn the channel and just guess at the, you know, about a minute and a half and come back.

31:01Because even, and there's nothing dirty in those lyrics, but hip hop not allowed whatsoever. Secular devil music. Absolutely. So how much, you know, you and I have only spoken sparsely at different times about your pops. How much do you get into your relationship with him in the book? I talk about it a lot because it, honestly, it is the most important relationship in my life as far as the contribution to my depression, to my mental health. You know, for me, writing this book was not about pointing fingers or assigning blame. and in many ways I was like I don't I didn't know if I wanted to ever really talk about this stuff until my pops was no longer with us my dad was born in 1937 like he is an old man but he's but he's still here he is he's still alive and kicking um but for me I just felt more urgency with wanting to tell the story but he's 90 almost 90 he'll be 90 next year yeah and and not in you know he's not in a facility not in a home like you know he has some ambulatory issues but you know he walks with the cane but he still gets around so without giving away your whole book what was what was so complicated and challenging about the relationship with your dad so my dad is just a very scary human being uh jamaican immigrant both my parents are immigrants from the caribbean and uh he's someone who he would talk about his own father and he talked about his how his dad had another family and he would like dote upon that other family but my dad and his siblings wouldn't be given proper clothes or shoes.

32:31Your dad's father doted on the other family. On the other family, but not my dad and his siblings. So my dad always thought because he doesn't beat us all the time, because we do have shoes, because we do have a roof over our head. You have a good. Yeah, we have a great, I'm a great dad. So my dad is just a very, you know, there weren't often, we didn't see him smile or laugh or say, I love you. he's just a very stern man. He did laugh a little bit. But just for the most part, there's a lot of anger. We all walked on eggshells in my household. So a lot of that really just contributed to a lot of my poor self-talk, to the way I spoke to myself.

33:11So that was something that me and my sisters, we talk about now. My sisters, we're all about a year apart from each other. So we're all in like a two-year window. And we talk about how we all had to go to therapy. We all had to work on ourselves. We all had to learn to deal with the trauma that we were dealing with as kids because so much of that stuff just continues to manifest as we get older. So, yeah, I think my dad and just the way he dominated our household. And it's like he had the ability just to suck all the air out of a room. And if he was unhappy, everyone else had to be happy. Your parents stayed together?

33:46They stayed together. There was actually a time where, when I broke my neck, actually, my mom informally just kind of separated from my dad. I live about half an hour from my, or used to live half an hour from my parents. So she actually stayed with me for about four months. And I was trying to encourage her to find her own place. And she's a registered nurse. She's made great money. She was the breadwinner for all of our childhood and continues to support him. And essentially is almost like his servant in many ways. But they're not together romantically? They're two people who never should have been together.

34:18But because they came up in the same religion, they thought our faith will bond us. So they've been together for about 41 years. And I think for so long, my mom was afraid to leave him because, you know, she didn't want to break up the household. But also a lot of that has to do with the religion we came up in. I grew up apostolic. For a lot of people who don't know, they might have heard of Pentecostal. But very, you know, very strict in dress. Like the women in our household didn't wear makeup. didn't wear earrings, didn't wear pants. We lived in church. I'm talking about four to five hours on Sunday, another two hours on Wednesdays, another two hours on Friday.

34:57When I'm home, I'm reading the Bible. But my dad was a preacher and just someone that, you know, that was the most important thing in the household. So it was a tough time to figure out how to manage my emotions, dealing with becoming a teenager, even just dealing with like, hey, I got all these feelings, these lustful feelings. And in the religion, you're not supposed to have any of that. So hitting puberty and trying to navigate all of that, you know, it was just a very tough time as a kid and I felt very alone for a long time. Regardless of what your sexual interest is, when you have a family, a household in which sexuality is villainized, yeah, whatever feelings you have sexually make you feel guilty.

35:36Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, depending how lucky you are can really mess you up in a variety of ways. They did for a long time. Honestly, I didn't have my first kiss until grad school, graduate school, legitimately. There was no dating because we were not allowed to date people outside of our religion. So I didn't date at all. I barely talked to women or girls through high school. Even in college, I'm still in the religion. And it's such a, I didn't really meet any other women in the religion. So who am I going to date? Who am I allowed to date? so for me as someone who was trying to i grew up in this apostolic faith and trying to carry this faith forward um it was just very difficult for me to find romantic partners so i feel very stunted uh in many ways so i was i'm playing catch up on just being comfortable talking to women even dating but the fact that that turned into some version of healthy relationships and now obviously you're in a very healthy engagement that in and of itself is such a blessing bro i i've been talking about this on my podcast recently I feel I had like a little t trauma because I did not kiss a girl until I was 14 the year between 13 when I like liked all these girls in middle school but they weren't interested and they friend zoned me but the year plus between that and when I then started dating one of those same girls.

37:06And then six months later, lost my virginity. We're talking about a year and a half window. Right. I believe I was stunted because of that. Like, I felt like very, oh my God, am I ever going to be with women? I want to, but I like, so for you to go till grad school, you're not 22 years old. 22, I was 22. And that wasn't even my first, yeah, my first sexual experience wasn't really until like my mid-20s. you know and that that's that's that's late that's really late so just so dealing with all these feelings of of being inadequate of not being lovable the that was a lot i had to deal with that and work through that you know through my my 30s i the idea that i am now in i i love my fiance so we have such an amazing relationship we laugh all the time uh we communicate so well I never fathomed that I could get here not just hey I can be with a woman who I could see myself living with and this works and we we can navigate our our arguments but being in a place of where our relationship is really flourishing and and it's beautiful I feel like just continues to grow and get better and better it's it really is and for me that really is just because of doing the work and that's it and did you what was the most serious relationship you had prior to meeting her because you were one of those friends that I remember when you told me you were dating her.

38:32I remember it being like, oh, well, I didn't think of you as like dating that much and being super active. You know, it was one of those things where you're excited. Like, oh, cool. Right. And then very quickly, you're like, no, this is kind of serious. And I remember running into you guys together at WrestleMania or something like that. So, yeah, did you have did you get anything close to a serious relationship prior to her? It had just been dating. Nah, so Emilio and I, I feel like now, because life's gotten busy, I'm on the West Coast now. West, West. So, yeah, we don't, it's just hard keeping up.

39:00I was talking to Kaz about this. It's just hard. At this age, with family, with everything going on, and when you're juggling a lot, it's hard keeping up with people the way you used to. But for, man, I feel like for a good decade, Emilio and I used to talk every day about everything. And then, God rest his soul, but Brody, Brody also joined the group. And Brody was, and I'm telling you, we were lighting this thing up every single day. And we're talking about wrestling. We're talking about the locker room. We're talking about women. We're talking about dating. So a lot of this stuff, like, Amelia was my, like, he's my therapist, damn near, for so much of, man, my time.

39:33We're lucky this thing got on the rails. Hey, don't knock it. I'm a certified yoga instructor, you fuck. Like, I know what I'm doing. But look, so I would talk to Amelia about a lot of this stuff. But you know what? Like, for the most part, it's like these dalliances or long-distance relationships. ships, a lot of starts and stops. You think, oh, maybe there's something here and it fizzles out. So many. I mean, there was, I mean, listen, I also think he's also downplaying his ability because when he glowed up and started to kiss all the faces and go on all the dates. Kiss all the girls and make them cry?

40:07And go on all the dates and hold all the hands. You know what I mean? He definitely caught up and, you know, made sure that he wanted to. But there's still a difference between that and then, you know. Well, can I share something? Go ahead. So one of the things that both of us would always talk about was, and especially him, when he was ascending into his career and it was just like this wild roller coaster, he was always concerned with, because I live on the road so much, I don't know if I'm going to find my person and maybe they can't understand this weird and insulated bubble that I lived in.

40:37That was a major concern of his. And I told him, and this is the guy's honest truth, I told him, dude, when it slows down for you and you're done, your person is just going to pop into your life and it's going to change your world forever. And when you know that this person is your person, the whole world is just going to become quiet. Did it become quiet? No, you know, spot on. And that's how it happened. But look, look, you also have to understand what the schedule was. He's a very wise man. 200 hours. Under all that hair. Look, we did five shows a week. When you're on those raw loops. So when I'm coming home, I'm sleeping.

41:14I am repacking my bag, getting my sushi, watching a few shows, and I'm getting out of here again. The idea of, and I will tip of the cap to Kofi, to Austin, to all my coworkers who are married, who have kids, doing that schedule. Thankfully, the schedule's pared down a bit, so it's not what it once was. but the idea of trying to maintain a relationship living this where we just lived on the road that that's who I felt like I was married to so it was very difficult the idea of and I think what was different for Kofi and Austin is they met their wives before they got to WWE so they might have been doing the indies but they were able to build that foundation earlier trying to start something new when it's like hey maybe I could see you once or twice a month uh the idea of it was just you know just didn't make a lot of sense to me yeah that made that that i totally get that you never considered dating in the locker room like so many other people do i have been tempted before and there have been some i don't know if near misses is it but there have been some don't stop we're not doing there were people you were interested in before yes and thing yeah but i diva's era or post diva's era um butterfly belt or or or blue or blue when maybe when things were transitioning And thankfully that, let me not say too much.

42:30But nothing happened. Nothing happened. And these are women that I am dear friends with now. And I'm glad nothing happened either. And we're talking about just very early stages of something that might even resemble courtship. But you know what? The idea of I'm so thankful things didn't blow up. Because I've seen instances of these relationships that blow up. And then you have to see this person all the time. Do on-screen stuff with them can happen. It's a lot. It's the worst. But I will say I do a great job. I've turned a lot of the dalliances or almost relationships have just become genuine friendships.

43:04And I always think, you know, that's what I always want. I think first you should have that foundation of friendship. Is this someone when, you know, when sex is completely off the table, when you're just out? Is this someone that you actually like hanging out with? You want to go to the movies with or go to the park with? And thankfully, like with my fiance, with Kristen, we have so much fun together. So we have our little bubble days that we do where we just stay in the bubble. We stay in our bubble. We don't leave the house. We have DoorDash, you know, and we watch our movies and our shows.

43:33And those are some of my very favorite days on Earth. Do you try to make any sort of phone policies on days like that, like to avoid scrolling and things of that nature? That is we've had more earnest conversations about that. And I think just intuitively we know and I know as someone who is gone often and on the road often when I am home, I am going I'm damned if I'm going to be someone who robs Kristen of that time with me because I'm on my phone and I'm busy. She should work from home three days a week. So there are times where I'm able to do other things. I'm not saying when I'm home, that's all I do.

44:06But when it's our time together, maybe like, babe, I'll send a quick text. I'm so sorry. I'll put it down. And that's it. So I really think being present is so important. And when we honeymoon, we actually, one of the things we're talking about is putting our phones on airplane mode, not accessing Wi-Fi, maybe just using our phones to take pictures and whatnot. And maybe 10 minutes a day we'll respond to text or maybe not at all. And actually, I'm kind of excited about that. That sounds great. Because I don't know where you guys are at now in life as well. We need our phones a lot because we all work in media.

44:38But I've been thinking more and more about going analog, man. I'm telling you between all the misinformation, between all the AI, I just feel fatigue by being on my phone oftentimes. Natalie said to me yesterday, like, oh, what are you doing? And I was like, I'm literally, I have no fucking idea. I'm looking at stuff I don't give a shit about. I said, I'm literally looking at stuff right now. I'm glad you asked. I'm wasting my time. I'm scrolling. I don't know what, I don't care. I'm angry now that I'm even, like, what am I doing? Anyway, so this morning, I'm on my way to go into ESPN, and I was like, I was texting with my boy Olu, who produces Validate Me for me, and I go, he has my login to my Instagram and the Validate Me.

45:23Emilio has the login to Cheap Heat. I'm deleting Instagram off my phone for the weekend. I don't need it at all. Like, we do this pretend thing. We're like, well, I need to promote that. No, I don't. I got news for you guys. people are going to watch WWE tomorrow, whether I promote it or not. Right. I mean, with all due respect, I went on first take. I'm going here. I'm doing all the things I need to do professionally. But I think we lie to ourselves a bit with the it's our job. We have to do it. Yeah, but that's not why I have to scroll aimlessly. Right, right. And that's how they get you. It is.

45:56You're scrolling aimlessly. It's hard to stop, man. And like we expect kids to be able to do it when we we didn't even grow up with the Internet age and we still are addicted to our phones so i've made a more concerted effort to actually have i'm not a big kindle or e-reader guy and look i'm gonna i have a book and i want people to potentially we love e-readers we love please don't do that anymore but what so i've i've been this year i have been more intentional about reading books so that whenever if i have that desire to just randomly scroll but let me grab this book instead and sit down and thankfully I'm at almost 30 books.

46:34Mind you. That's incredible. So 10 of those are August Wilson plays that you can read in a day. So that's, I'm kind of cheating a little bit. Count them. I am counting them, but I found that it's helped me a lot because it's, it feels a lot like smokers replacing that desire to put a cigarette in your mouth. And this is not me being judgmental of you. I'm so sorry. But instead it's replacing like, you know, people who put it like a pretzel or something else. So I feel like it just replaces that desire to have my phone in my hand. I'll put a book in my hand instead. Do you, are you addicted or do you have any inkling towards anything addictive besides the gym?

47:09Which, by the way, is definitely legitimate addiction for you. It's not, it used to be. It used to be a problem. You struggle to like, hey, want to grab dinner. I have to get a lift. And I'm like, you don't. I have to get a lift. And hey, bud, me and you are here. I haven't seen you in four years. What are you doing? Let's get dinner. I would love to man but I gotta lift because my titties need to titty so hold on so that's a really important question though where is the line on that because you've passed up many a good time sure you know actually last time you went out which was nice which was a rare occurrence I think I worked out in the morning because you'd already worked out so but in all seriousness where is that line like yes working out is healthy but when you're like no I literally can't do anything because I have to get a lift okay but I'm not in the gym for three to four hours.

48:01It's not like that. I'm doing my 90 minutes. I only lift four days and I do two cardio days and I'd have one off day. Here is my perspective. Wait, so that means that six days total or four you do, in two you do both? It's six total. Six days total, one off day. My perspective is, look, my dad has had diabetes and was 30 pounds lighter than me and didn't have a big sweet tooth. Now at 40, I am just concerned, not concerned, I am someone who's keeping an eye on my health. I'm already, I'm like 260 pounds at 5 '10 and change. I don't know. You know, it's a little, even then, I'm trying to slip down.

48:35But can't you lean down? I can't lean down. So anyways, my thought is if I want to age gracefully, and I'm a big believer in habits. I think once you say, eh, I'll take a day off to go hang out, then there's building the habit that I'll take another day off. I'll take a week off. Maybe I do have to address the idea that this is - It's just an idea. It's more of a, let's go with compulsion. It's more of a compulsion. But look, this has been my life since I started working out. My dad got me some like an old rusted bar with some sand weights when I was around 10 years old. But I learned to work out for real, for real when I was 12.

49:10And I fell in love with the gym at 12. And at the time, I was someone who'd be in the gym for legitimately four to five hours a day, six days. I fell in love with it. But in many ways, it was also my refuge from a very chaotic household. A lot of those things. I don't know if it's an addiction, but now you do have me questioning it. Because I can't imagine, for me, the idea of let me not work out to go do something social that's not advancing my career, that's not hanging out with my lady. The idea of that, for me, is very hard. But think about that. Think about what you're saying. What's more valuable than doing something social with people you're friends with?

49:45Is it a control thing as well? Because when you can't do the gym, it's a lack of control. And then it throws off the rest of your day. So what happens is you're robbing yourself of just being present within the moment and just hanging out. let's say Peter wants to get a delicious steak with you and you can't go get the delicious steak because you still have to go lift the weights. It's a tough line. I honestly do think it's a tough line. And I say that as someone who's, you know, big workout guys have not, have not prioritized it enough. Although I will, I'm three weeks into working out at 6am three days a week.

50:14So I'm trying my best, but it's clearly not, it's not in my DNA. Right. So certainly me bringing it up isn't the same as you, but I do think it is interesting. Like, cause you, the thought of it's not advancing my career and it's not with my part my wife my my wife to be so it's not it can't be more important than the gym like that is a faulty way of thinking i'm not saying are you gonna die and go i wish i'd spent more time in the gym like will you think that only if you die because you weren't in the gym enough and that ain't gonna be why you die all right we're talking we're talking at a big E.

50:48If you want to talk to him, 877-344-4893. It's Cheap Heat Live on Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7. Promotional consideration paid for by the following. Whew, that was a tough match. I need some of this. Yeah, doctor says we're pretty low on the rainbow right now, but it's pretty common this time of year. Oh, yeah. Hey, Woods, can your boy get an assist? I just want to make sure I'm 100%. No problem. oh

51:23feel the rainbow taste the rainbow baby how was the process of of writing the book i have thought many times about the idea of writing a book and i get completely overwhelmed at how you end up being able to go through your head and really come up with all of the stories and memories, et cetera? Yeah, so actually, last year, I decided, so a lot of this really, for me, started with the Players' Tribune article, Sour, that came out December of 2024, actually the same day that we did the New Day heel turn. That article dropped. And for me, that process was really enriching because I had so much feedback.

52:05So many people reached out to me and said, this was really moving. I actually saw something on Reddit where someone read my article and had been struggling with alcoholism and decided to go get therapy. And for me at this stage of life and career, making art or writing a book or writing an article that can shape people's lives positively, that can get them to go seek help, that for me, that's the juice. That is real impact. And I feel like my suffering, my struggles have a purpose if I'm able to now reflect my story and people see themselves in my story. So that really excited me. But I decided after that Players Tribune article and I was really fortunate.

52:45In fact, you know, one of the things that really kind of blew me away is my article is the only one ever to be included in this prestigious book called like the best sports writing pieces of each year. They do this annual thing. And I talked to the people at Players Tribune fairly, fairly regularly. And they told me there's still so much internal discussion about the article. So anyways, it got so much love. I thought, you know what? Let me actually sit down and finally do this. And I feel like I've had conversations with friends like Emilio and other people who mentioned it. I just wasn't ready at the time to sit down and write it.

53:18But this felt like the time. So I started on May 6th of last year and actually finished on Juneteenth. So I took about six weeks, wrote every single day except for one. And I was just really inspired to get it all down. But the nice thing is I really not that the neck break was the best thing in the world happened to me. But the positive thing is I felt like it gave me a very natural narrative because I had all these injuries in college that all led to my declining mental health. I got worse and worse. And now I have this even more devastating injury and I'm in a great place. So it just felt like where I was at in life.

53:54It felt like the right time. I knew my career was over. I had the time and ability to do it. So I thought this is the right time. And I also, you know, when Sparks and I were first having discussions about, oh, maybe, you know, one day talking about your mental health journey, what you've been through, I still carried so much shame for so long. Just about having any issues to discuss at all? Well, I mean, being in a psych ward for a month, like being in a gown where they take your shoes, they take your, you know, you don't have shoelaces. The idea of telling people that I thought I would be discredited.

54:29I would be. How old are you when that happened? I was so unfortunately the marker for my time anytime if I forget when I was so I was so I was in there when the Virginia Tech shooting happened that the horrible massacre and I just thought this is what people people are going to see because a lot of the discourse around that was the shooter was someone who had these struggles with mental health he was on antidepressants and whatnot. And I would think, oh, this is what people would think of people like me who have severe mental health issues. And that was April of 2007. So this was, I think I was, yeah, I was 21 at the time when I was in the psych ward.

55:04So I did a week just to try to, you know, essentially it was a last resort presented to me by my psychiatrist. And I've been on medication for years. That wasn't working. What was the space you were in in the time leading up to that? So it was a lot. So I was dealing with, so I was diagnosed at 19 with major depressive disorder with psychotic features. So essentially, I was just so depressed, I would start to hear voices. And I could acknowledge that these were voices. I knew I had hallucinations as well. So I was in a space where I knew these things weren't real, but that didn't mean they stopped.

55:38I could still hear them. I also dealt with night terrors. A lot of people have severe depression. you have these very vivid dreams where you're doing horrible thing like unspeakable things or or or those things are happening to you and it just feels like every day you don't even have an opportunity to set yourself up to have a good day when you're waking up with these horrible vivid things floating in your head so i would deal with that i would deal with this constant like constant headache this just dull like tension feels like your head is in a vice grip I dealt with dissociation as well. What's dissociation?

56:15So one of the things I liken it to for a lot of people who don't really know much about dissociation or know what it is, is do you know that Spike Lee double dolly shot? It's one of the things I love is in Malcolm X. You see this this moment before Malcolm X is is assassinated, but that it has this floating feeling. and uh so the dolly and the actor are are both sorry the the camera and the actor are both on the dolly so it gives the appearance of of the character that's in frame is just floating through the yeah and that's that's very much how i felt is like i am floating through life in many ways i felt like people like there are times where it felt like no one almost like people couldn't see me like i wasn't there like i couldn't even feel my feet on the ground like i didn't feel connected or rooted to my body or to the world around me.

57:05So dissociation is kind of like not feeling like you're in your body. Which is terrifying and can give you like a lot of insight into probably how like people end up doing, you know, terrible things. Like I would have to imagine that would be a symptom of people who are, you know, end up doing things that are unspeakable because they feel separated sort of from everything that's going on around them. You had a myriad of these things and it was over a period of how long would you say? Like, did it come on quickly? So it, I'm trying to remember all of the timeline. It wasn't all at once. So obviously, and a lot of this was spurred.

57:47So obviously, I had the stuff with the dad, but then my dream was college football. And that's really all I feel like I have. I'm doing okay in school, but don't have great relationships. So for me, this I'm all in on football and my freshman year, I was number eight in the country. We have an incredible D line. So it was a very senior late in defensive line of the defensive lineman as well. Coming in as a freshman. My first year, we had like Jonathan Babineau, who went on to play for 11 years with the Falcons, was in that Super Bowl where the unfortunately the Patriots came back from 28 three.

58:19He had a great career. Matt Roth was drafted by the Dolphins. we had another J-Rob we had another defensive end who unfortunately passed away D-Rob Derek Robinson so he played for the Chargers for a bit anyways my point is we had a great defensive line and I was going to get an opportunity to play as a true freshman not start but to be in that rotation and I tear my ACL and then to come back the next year all those guys leave and there are a crop of guys that came in with me and they're getting better and better and I'm rehabbing, I get another opportunity to play. I feel like that gets taken away again.

58:56I tear my other ACL in camp. I don't even get to play a game. And that's when things really started to get worse and worse. I end up, I feel like I'm getting better and I'm rehabbing, then I tear my pec. So it's just, it feels like I'm making progress. Something bad happens. I make progress again, something worse happens. And you get to a point where you just, you start to really believe like you're just a failure. Like you can't do anything right. Right. Like like you're this is what life is always going to be. So so things really got worse at 19. I got the diagnosis. I was on medication. But then the other injuries that came after that also made things worse and worse.

59:36But my last injury was breaking my patella and I took a medical hardship. So I was done playing football and I truly felt like I had nothing to live for. Like the one thing I was invested in was football. I was doing fairly well in school, but I didn't want that to be my life. I didn't have a I didn't have a girl, wasn't close to family, didn't care about myself at all. So when football was over, that's when things really, really started to decline. And also and I think one of the reasons I want to write the book as well is so many athletes I know quietly struggle with this is this loss of identity.

1:00:09because when you're an athlete or when you're in any profession that that's, it's that demanding, it requires so much of you. We had to sign this letter, which we would always laugh at, that the NCAA would send us to say that we would only commit to 20 football hours a week. That was the rule. And it was a lot closer to 40 hours between tape study, practice, everything we do, rehab. So this is, this is our life on top of doing school. So when all that's gone, that stability, that structure that community and tip of the cap to my strength coach he still made sure he said hey even though you're done playing come lift so i still worked out at the facility i still felt some connection but in many ways like my dream was gone my community in many ways was gone so i felt very lost for for a long time so things got worse after definitely after i broke my kneecap and a lot of like the dissociation a lot of the paranoia uh you know there was a time where i walked around i walked around but i would drive around i'm in iowa city there's no crime no one's trying to do anything to me but because of the psychosis and the hallucinations and the paranoia i just would i had a knife that i would just keep in just a kitchen knife in my glove compartment and i would worry like i felt like the cops were following me i had all these delusions and by and i i know i know you know this better than anyone that is the beginning a black man in america not doing great walking around with a knife we have seen that end in horrible ways in this country a million times.

1:01:32Absolutely. And those things, unfortunately, there was a show that I really love called Wyatt C-Next Problem Areas. And he talked about a lot of one season was just on policing. And one of the things that was suggested is oftentimes in these mental health crises, whether they're unhoused people, whether people who are going through a manic episode, it's oftentimes this and this is not a shot at the police, but the police are not equipped to deal with someone who is schizophrenic and, and who just needs meds, who just needs. So, so having one of the things they suggested in the show was having a cop paired with a therapist, someone who was trained to do this work, to go out on these calls, because you're absolutely right.

1:02:12And unfortunately too many people of all codes, but especially black and Brown people too many times, like all they really need is someone to, to put them on medication, to be in a facility, to get everything situated again with their brain chemistry. But unfortunately, if a cop has someone who is dealing with these delusions with a weapon charging at them, it too often ends in tragedy. Was there one particular medication that ended up being the lifesaver for you? So I went back and forth on different antidepressants and antipsychotic. The last one that helped me a little bit more was nortriptyline.

1:02:51was, and that's, there's a couple classes of antidepressants. One is an SSRI. This is a, what I was on, nortriptyline is a serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. So it's a little bit different than I think Lexapro's and SSRI and a lot of those. So there's a couple different classes. So I was on nortriptyline and an antipsychotic called Risperidol. But I think, and it wasn't immediate, but I think what really made the difference ultimately was going through ECTs. So that was, I did the one week in the psych ward, went home and I realized actually I'm not any better. I need to go back.

1:03:26So when I went back, they did over three weeks, we did three rounds a week. Is it electric shock therapy? Yes. Yeah. And I don't know if you've seen One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. They talk about that, but it's, it's used as punishment in that film. This was used to hopefully change the chemistry. And it did. It did. And it took some time. It It wasn't immediate by any means. But I think eventually I got there. But it's, you know, it's a lot. You know, you're put under. They induce a seizure. That's what it is, is you have a seizure. They put a bite block in to make sure you don't bite your tongue or hurt yourself.

1:04:04And you have a seizure. So I don't remember the actual procedure. But something I talk about in the book is actually one time I came to and I couldn't move my body, couldn't open my eyes. And that is that's one of the scariest things that happened to you is you're alert in your body, but you can't move at all. And you hear people talking around it. So, yeah. And then afterwards, every single session, intense nausea. So they would just kind of wheel me into this room afterwards, the sitting room. I'd go back to the psych ward after the ECTs and I would just sit there and I'd have to suck on ice chips slowly to hydrate because I was so nauseous probably for a good hour or two.

1:04:43And you're doing that three times a week over three weeks. And did you end up land? Is there a permanent medication that you landed on? So I stayed on no tryptoline and risperidol. But, you know, I didn't really once I got signed to WWE at 23. So the ECTs were in 07 and I got signed in 09. So I was I was able to return back to school. I made up the work that I missed. I graduated, spent a year in grad school and I was eventually started feeling better. Still depressed, but it was a lot more manageable. And then at 23, when I got signed, I went down to Tampa, left grad school, and I was taking my medication still for a few months in Tampa at 23.

1:05:22But on my own, I just thought, like, I don't want to be on medication forever, especially if I don't feel like I need it. So I decided to go off of meds at 23. And yeah, and thankfully, still managing the waves of depression, but never reverting back to the worst of my depression from, like, ages 19 to 21, 22. But I guess you'd have built in things to keep an eye out for. For some reason, you were like, thoughts came along or feelings came along that you hadn't felt in a long time that you'd have awareness to be like, I need to do something about this. Right. At least, you know, I'd gone through therapy, so I knew I could call my therapist or I could call someone who could connect me with another therapist.

1:06:01So I knew if things went went south again, I knew the avenues of help to seek. But, you know, when I was 19, I didn't know anything about therapy. I had to be forced into therapy. My defensive line coach, we had an amazing human being I'm so grateful for. Marvin Sims was essentially kind of a life coach, but also a therapist. So my defensive line coach sent me to Marvin. And the great thing is, you know, Marvin was just such a great man. Unfortunately, he passed away in short, when I was in FCW, I want to say around 2010, I believe. He passed away after a bout of cancer. but seeing a black man in Iowa who was able to sit me down.

1:06:41And in many ways he didn't force me. And that's the thing I grew up in a household where we didn't talk about our problems. A man doesn't talk about what he's going through. You have to be strong. You don't cry. So that was, that was what I was taught as a kid. So I didn't even know, I didn't have the language to talk about what I was going through. So it took a while, but Marvin was really patient with me. He allowed me the time to slowly start talking about childhood, to start talking about what was going on. So it took a long time for me to be able to open up, but I'm so glad I did because I truly believe if I wasn't forced to go to therapy, I would not be here right now.

1:07:15I said we'd talk to the people, 877-344-4893. Let's finally do that. Let's start out with Rob in Iowa. What is going on, Rob? Hey, what's going on? Go Hawks, Biggie. Go Hawks. Yes, sir. I can't believe it's been, I think, 20 years now this year. since the goal line stand against Syracuse, I believe you played a role in. That's right. Just one play, though. Oh, well, yeah, that was probably the difference that they would have scored there. But as a Hawkeye fan, I just wanted to say, who's also a crazy wrestling fan, thanks for Big Noon Saturday in 2021. Just seeing you as the WWE champion out there in the bibs with that crowd, with the number two ranked team in the country, was maybe one of the proudest moments I've had as a fan of both.

1:08:04So it was just really cool, and I just always wanted to – it stuck with me. I just always wanted to let you know that. And just thank you for everything and representing the Hawks. No, I really appreciate it, man. Actually, that was one of my favorite days in my career. Thanks, Rob. So I'm WWE champion. My alma mater, Iowa, early in the season. We're playing – Penn State is number two in the country. We play Penn State. We upset Penn State. But I didn't even get to be there for the whole game because after the first quarter, I have to hop on a jet, go fly straight to Vegas where Tyson Fury is fighting Wilder.

1:08:39Their third fight, which a lot of people were like, there wasn't a lot of demand for the fight, but the fight ended up being a classic. Fury gets knocked down twice in one round, comes back to knock out Wilder. But I did the intros for that fight. I remember it. So for me, so I was in Vegas, I think a couple days prior. I think we just shoot the intros in Vegas on Wednesday or Thursday. I fly back to Iowa on Friday. Sit down. I'm having, and I'm a huge college football. That's my thing, man. Believe me, I'm aware. I know. Backstage at WWE, the crew, there is nothing bigger among the crew than college football.

1:09:18Yeah, it is huge. And Big E is right in there among the biggest college football talkers backstage. Absolutely. And me, Grogan, Grogan, one of the cameramen, and Dawkins, we have a group chat. We just talk. We're all obsessed with college football. But anyways, so I go, I fly back to Iowa, and I'm sitting down. We have a dinner. So Big Noon kickoff, Fox, they do a dinner with the hosts and the guests. So I'm sitting down with Matt Leinart, Reggie Bush, man, just some of the biggest names. Brady Quinn, all great dudes. And then we do the show. We have the dinner Friday night. We do the show Saturday, fly to Vegas to watch this classic fight.

1:10:00And I'm sitting next to some, like, I got great seats for this incredible fight. Just a very, very cool sports day that I'm involved in. And as the champ at that time, it's funny, right? Like, for as much as, and obviously we didn't do a lot of wrestling today, so now we're going to have to do another thing. But fortunately the book's coming out in February, so we have another series. But, like, that is one of the things that's very real about the title, right? Like when you are champ, people can say what they want. It's very real. That's the real part is the access. And for me, like there was a lot of frustrations.

1:10:31I didn't love the booking. I'm proud of the matches. Like I really, I think the world of Drew as a professional wrestler had a great match with Drew in Saudi for the title. So I'm proud of that part. But the book, you know, it wasn't a great run. And a lot of people say so online. They're not wrong at all. It wasn't a great run. But the great thing was the access, the things it opened me up to. I don't know if another wrestler had done the Breakfast Club before. I don't remember ever seeing anyone do it. I don't think so. But shout out to Chanel for that. Oh, Chanel did that? Yeah. That sounds right.

1:11:02Yeah. So Chanel was the reason. She opened me up to just doing a lot of, not just media, but a lot of black media, a lot of New York media. And shout out to her for all of that. And that was what I was so grateful for the title. And it really just gave me the confidence. I'm so used to doing stuff with Kofi and with Woods. But now it's just me. And I get to talk about the things that are important to me and that I'm passionate about. and knowing like, okay, I belong in these spaces. That for me just really encouraged me to keep doing things outside of the wrestling sphere. Let's go to Rich in Nebraska.

1:11:31What's up, Rich? Hey, Big E, I have to say you are in my top five favorite wrestlers, only to be preceded by Big A, Big B, Big C, and Big D. Oh no, that's just, come on. But I did want to say, I did enjoy seeing you back September of 25. You were in Nebraska when we were playing Colorado. Saw you decked out in Cornhusker gear. Despite being an Iowa player and Nebraska-Iowa have their differences, but I'll put that aside. My question is, you've already said that you've let go of the actual in-ring process or wrestling. But do you see yourself ever doing any sort of managerial roles? whether it be with the New Day, wherever they may land, or in WWE?

1:12:25That's a great question. It's something I've considered. I think after years of being on the road, like I said, when I first started, it was five shows a week, every single week. And there's so many other things that I'm excited about doing, especially things in college football. It's very difficult to be on the road every single week and still juggle everything, still try to be a present partner when I'm home. So it's something, I think if it was a limited run or, hey, we're going to do this for a short amount of time, I'd be excited to do that. But if it's something like we're going to do this every single week, every Raw, every SmackDown, every PLE, I think just being that involved with the product again, I'm not sure I want that regularity just because it doesn't allow me the time to do those things.

1:13:12Does this current setup kind of work perfectly for you? This is ideal, where I'm still involved with the product. It's once a month, once every three weeks or so. But then, and I told the company, too, I'm so grateful. Michael Cole pulled me aside a few times and said, hey, I think you'd be great at commentary. We loved, and I told him respectfully, I don't know. I don't want to be on the road weekly like that. But I had an opportunity to host Rock Classics for Netflix when we first started with Netflix. and that idea of being a host for a shiny floor show, that was fun. I love doing something like that.

1:13:45You fly down to Orlando, we'll shoot for three, four days, you go home. I'd love to do more of that. So I'm definitely down to do that. And my current role, if they'll have me and the money makes sense and everything's good, I'll continue to do these pre-shows and post-shows because I'm having fun with you guys. And I really do feel that, and shout out to the team at WWE who's really prioritized our bosses, Lee and now they brought in this guy Baron who's tremendous and Pomerico all these people have now started to really prioritize these countdown shows for a long time you know Baron brings this up a lot that for a long time they were kind of just like these throwaway add-on things yeah we're gonna do it because there's a show we now finally have people who are dedicated to these are shows right the countdown and the post show are shows and we want to make them great and so it makes it really satisfying It's now you're a part of something real.

1:14:42You're not just like showing up and jumping on before the show starts. Absolutely. I mean, you know, Lee was heavily involved in building College Game Day. That's what it is. Lee fitting. Yeah, and that's become a big thing. So if we can have something like that, that's the goal. That's some semblance of that? It would be amazing. E, I love you. It was a pleasure. We'll bring you back in February. Everyone go pre-order the book, How I Got Over Today. Love you, my man. It tore you in, everyone. Stay mage. Enjoy yourself. Shouts to Emilio Sparks. uh sug and dip who of course off today kelly and andre for holding it down have a wonderful weekend we'll see you on the countdown show tomorrow at 11 a.m on espn