Remembering Hulk Hogan

0:03Peter Rosenberg!

0:05David Shoemaker: Shout out to Psychoglade. The major stick. Oh my goodness. It's professional wrestling. The major king. 24 seconds. Champions down.

0:18Peter Rosenberg: A thousand percent confirmed.

0:21David Shoemaker: M-mage. Stay mage and enjoy yourself. M-m-m-m-m-m-mage.

0:40Peter Rosenberg: Palat Tech

0:58David Shoemaker: Sweet, sweet Peter Rosenberg. Shout out to that guy, Greg. I like delicious chicken. It was repugged. It was repugged. It's professional wrestling. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Cheap Heat Live on Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7. We are certainly surprised that this is the show that we're going to be doing today, but here we are. We are going to be saying farewell to Hulk Hogan, the icon, passed away yesterday at 71 years old. If you've ever speculated on what kind of news it would be when eventually, because that is the kind of thing we would talk about here, how crazy a moment it would be. Guys, it did not disappoint in that regard.

1:50David Shoemaker: It was just absolutely gigantic news everywhere. We have a lot to talk about today. Hulk Hogan, in my opinion, the most notable iconic superstar of all time and also a very complex man behind that character. But let me start with you, Dip, Christine. Dip, how taken aback were you just by the news? We've seen so many of our favorite wrestlers pass away. but how just personally surprised and sort of floored were you?

2:22Peter Rosenberg: I mean, this one definitely feels like the biggest. There is obviously no question about that. You know, we've had Scott Hall pass away. We've had a warrior pass away. You know, Mr. Perfect, my other, you know, I'm talking about my favorites. And this feels like the, I mean, by far the most monumental and the most sad. and I mean for God's sake I have a painting of this man in you know facing Andre the Giant at WrestleMania 3 as the primary piece of art in the first floor of my home which is it takes up an entire wall of my house so you know as far as his his impact on the wrestling business and on wrestling the wrestling universe as a whole there is no one more monumental and more important in that regard for his contributions to the business than Hulk Hogan.

3:19Peter Rosenberg: So, you know, he's in my opinion, the most important match in the history of wrestling versus Andre the Giant at WrestleMania three and my personal dip favorite match of all time. And the most important to me, which is Ultimate Warrior versus Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania six. So what else can you say? You know, obviously he had a controversial life and, you know, that's something that we all know. But as far as his contributions to the business, there is no one more impactful.

3:59David Shoemaker: It's funny. You mentioned the warrior match. One thing that I do think we should talk about today is his actual work in the ring, like how he wrestled. Sure. For everyone who has something very critical to say about his wrestling, the Warrior match turned out pretty great. And I got news for you. Cover your ears, Dip. It wasn't because of the Ultimate Warrior.

4:22Peter Rosenberg: No. I mean, I just – but the presentation of that match and the highs and lows, the way it started with the – first of all, the entrances were iconic in my opinion. But then you had the test of strength. you had the double clothesline the crisscross oh no the crisscross was at royal rumble but i think you had a crisscross in that match too but you definitely you definitely had you know the double clothesline you had the end with the fireworks you know i mean the handing had the handing of

4:53David Shoemaker: the belt i mean it's no it's a it's a it's a really big moment and i just the point that i'm trying to make is if it's not hulk hogan in there i don't think warrior is having that sort of match The best Warrior matches, it's Warrior Savage, it's Warrior Hogan. It's the guys who knew how to get this guy to the finish line. Respectfully, where Andre was at that stage in his career, the Warrior Andre stuff is not great. No, no. It's almost like not even matches. It's like, it's just like. No, it's like clotheslines and Andre falls down and it's just crap. Crapages. But Hulk Hogan was able to, which must have been, by the way, interesting.

5:37Because when you hear about how complicated the relationship was with Warrior, I'm sure it wasn't easy.

5:44David Shoemaker: Their working relationship was not easy. But that moment was a huge, huge moment. SGG, we know your feelings about Hogan are complicated to say the least. You are not a fan of the man, Terry Bollea. But we always we do on this show, you know, talk quite a bit about Hulk Hogan, the wrestler. So just take, you know, take us through your initial thoughts when you when you heard the news here. We were literally just talking about like where he ranks and, you know, how important he was on the episode that didn't make it to air. So I'll be honest. Right. You used the word complicated to describe my feelings about Hulk Hogan.

6:27They're not really that complicated. Right. Because he's the character and then the man behind the character. But to me, they were one and the same. The Hulk Hogan character, because that character was such a hero to everybody, that's where the complicated feelings come up. Because the man and the character are so linked that their feelings about the man complicate their feelings about the character. And he just, you know, he, the man, just was not that guy. He was not that hero. That was ultimately the difference, right? That the man was just a great performer in the sense that he got everybody to believe that he was this hero with the virtues and the values.

7:20So it's not that complicated for me. I'm happy to talk about the hero with the virtues and the values, but the man made it so easy to just sort of contextualize the things that Hulk Hogan, the character, did. and for me, put it in a proper light, I would say, doesn't mean that he's not great, Hulk Hogan the character. It doesn't mean that his contributions to the wrestling business weren't huge and that the matches weren't huge. But for me, it just makes it easier to also say that, you know, when the rock and wrestling thing started, you know, Piper did have a hand in that and that the lowest attended WrestleMania is one that he main evented.

8:04while he was main event in seven manias in a row. Like this is Hulk Hogan, the character, right? And these are things that actually did happen. And so all it did was just, you know, knock him off a little bit of a pedestal for me.

8:17David Shoemaker: Dude, what was your favorite childhood Hogan moment? Was there a time in which you were fully in and you're like, all right, this moment is fully invested? So funny enough, right? I think it's the same answer that everybody has. It's WrestleMania 3.

8:36Peter Rosenberg: It was the Dungeon of Doom. I did watch the Dungeon of Doom. I watched them do that cage with the three floors, him and Savage. And like, it was nuts. But like Hogan, I think for a lot of us in our age group, it's not even just that he was the guy. It's that he was really everywhere, right? My first memory of wrestling is WrestleMania 3. I don't know that I watched it live, but I know that my cousin Kirk had the tape and we would go watch the tape after church. It almost became a part of that ritual, right? You go. I said my prayers. I took my vitamins in the morning. Shout out to the Flintstone vitamins that all the 80s babies grew up on.

9:18Took my vitamins. I went to church. I said my prayers. And then it was like, all right, after church, we go and we watch WrestleMania 3. And I seen him slam Andre probably more times than I can count. No holds barred. we went to go see a closed circuit television and then we would say because you know black people make a joke out of everything so what's that smell? Dookie said it all the time it's a line from the movie if you haven't seen it you know you get the groceries and you would fight for the plastic bag so you could put it on and then tear it because you wasn't tearing an actual shirt

9:56David Shoemaker: A you'd get in trouble and B you're not physically strong enough Yeah, no, it wasn't happening. But yeah, Hogan was Hogan was everywhere. So I think it's hard to say like what the Hogan moment is if you're of that era, just because the man really was between 85 and 90. Yeah, it was if you were not there, you really don't understand. And I mean, honestly, even both you guys, the age difference you have with me, you don't even have the exact level of reference that I have. I was eight in 87. I was literally exactly who it was for. 1987, WrestleMania III. I'm eight years old discovering really what wrestling was.

10:45David Shoemaker: And he was so, so much larger than life. And, you know, when Hogan and Vince eventually had their story together, there was the fight over who came up with who's responsible for Hulkamania. Was it Hogan or was it Vince? And obviously we know that the truth is both. but you do have to give credit to some of the you know aesthetic decisions that Hogan made about his character before he ever met Vince McMahon you know like the look that he put together before he was even in WWE was pretty impressive a lot of the poses

11:32Peter Rosenberg: you know the yellow and red came during WWE. He had... I think that was it. Yeah, that's my guess. He had white...

11:43David Shoemaker: He tries a blue and white. He tries a black and silver. But the mustache, the blonde, it's a weird look. You wouldn't have thought on paper that necessarily the bald blonde, you didn't know where that was going to go. And furthermore, we know he credits superstar Billy Graham, but there were not a whole lot of six foot seven, 300 pound completely jacked to the gill pro wrestlers.

12:09Peter Rosenberg: No. So funny. I never had a moment with him. I had one moment at the Andre the Giant documentary premiere where I met him. We peed next to each other. Oh. And then - Well, that might solve - Is that the most - I don't know if this is a story, but serious. Yes. Why not? Is this the most - This might be a serious XXXM story.

12:30David Shoemaker: Is this the most famous person you've ever peed next to? No.

12:35Peter Rosenberg: No. There's way more than that. Come on. Name one. Name one that's better. Bruce Springsteen. That's good. The bosses. That's good. I would say the bosses. I would say it goes Springsteen, then Hogan. And then there's tons of others. The Mount Rushmore of people I've peed next to. I mean, it's quite their Mount Rushmore.

12:57David Shoemaker: That's Los Angeles. All right. But in this great moment that I know I've heard actually dip that Hogan before he passed, this was one of the moments he was also speaking about when he met Dipperstein at the Andre premiere.

13:12Peter Rosenberg: So then what was what was the moment you had? We peed next to each other and then we washed our hands together. And I said, I've never met you before, but I'd be remiss if I didn't introduce myself. And he was like, oh, it's nice to meet you, brother. And that was it.

13:25David Shoemaker: That's all I got. he didn't say when I slammed that big nasty giant, he weighed North of 600 pounds.

13:33Peter Rosenberg: But if we had one more second, he would have brought that up. By the way,

13:38David Shoemaker: if he, if he had drank one more water, you're having that conversation.

13:44Peter Rosenberg: Yeah. I got it. Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking back now to all like the, like, you know, what Hogan meant to me. It wasn't one of my favorite wrestlers. That's for sure. Um, I was a warrior guy and a macho guy and a, uh, at that time but i think that goes back to what he was saying though about like because by the time we get into it there's so many other guys that wasn't an option but i was i was a monster and i had a lot of warriors merch in my house growing up but i i mean the hogan merch was was also crazy i had you know hogan's soap i never i know you know if anyone has that soap it was uh very old and it was you know the twist off the head soap hogan soap i don't even think of it.

14:23Peter Rosenberg: I can't even. It must have been 90, 91. I was three or four years old when we had that. So I still I have it in my garage. I never got rid of the bottle. Don't use it, by the way. No, it's it's it's empty now. But I mean, it's from the 80s. Lord knows what that soap would do. I had Hogan merch, color Hogan, color forms, Hogan banners. I had Hogan. I had Hogan shit all over my house.

14:49David Shoemaker: I had, from being a little kid, I think all I had, and I think I still have it somewhere, is the white Hulkamania headband. Oh, I have that for sure. But it's, we have so much to get into, so many different moments, so many different aspects of him to talk about. And at some point, at some point later in the show, we will definitely get into the troubling stuff later because I think to tell his story fully is to tell the whole story. And I think we are capable and smart enough, even though social media does not want you to be this way, I think we are smart enough to walk and chew gum at the same time and be able to talk about the best parts of someone's life and also talk about bad parts of their life and still have a respectful and honest conversation.

15:44David Shoemaker: So we will do that as well. but for right now we're going to focus on the pro wrestler Hulk Hogan and some of the things that, that happened in his great career. Yes.

15:52Peter Rosenberg: I mean, before we, Peter, if you recall at your lowest point, when I was with you, you know, uh, there, we did one thing in your lowest moment together. And I think, you know what that was, what did we, what did we do? What did we, what did we turn on the TV?

16:10David Shoemaker: WrestleMania three? No. we just talked about this recently and I'm forgetting it again Hogan Savage Hogan Rock Hogan Rock oh because you hadn't watched had you not seen 18 at that time oh no I had seen it I

16:26Peter Rosenberg: just hadn't watched it in so long and you were so emphatic oh yes I was telling you about how

16:31David Shoemaker: mage it was and you were like it was that mage and I'm like it's the highest level thing you

16:34Peter Rosenberg: have to see it right and and and we put that on when we were together in in that era of your life And it brought us back to joy for five seconds. Yes. By the way, I mean, listen, I watch a lot of Hogan.

16:53David Shoemaker: I watch a lot of Heenan. I watch a lot of Gorilla Monsoon. When you think about the names and voices in my head, a word to Randy Orton that I think about and bring me to my happy place, Hogan is certainly a primary piece of that. yesterday later in the day Vince McMahon put out a statement Vince said the world lost a treasure today Hulk Hogan was the greatest WWE superstar of all time someone who was loved and admired around the world he was a trailblazer the first performer who transitioned from being a wrestling star into a global phenomenon his grit and unbridled thirst for success were unparalleled and he made and made him the consummate performer he gave everything he had to the audience whom he appreciated respected and loved he leaves us with one of his favorite expressions train take your vitamins and say your prayers today we pray for him um they they will be connected forever um vincent hulk hogan those those two guys two two if not one and two the most important names ever in wrestling two of the top four I don't know they're absolutely monumental my position is Vince is always number one the most important figure there ever was in pro wrestling now could you make a case that without Vince Hulk Hogan could have still existed and been so big but how do you get there

18:32Peter Rosenberg: of course not that is not no chance They no chance. Well said. No chance in hell is right. Greg Vince created the phenomenon that was Hulk Hogan at its peak. And Hogan had the chops to do it to deliver on that. And so I think I think the big another, you know, the big argument today. Another big argument is is Flair and Hogan. You know, we're talking about the greatest wrestler of all time. He's the greatest ever do it. you know and then you have rick flair sitting out there sort of you know i don't i don't know i don't know you know what our people is are they one in two is that one in two i said on the episode

19:16David Shoemaker: that is on our patreon only the only two people i know for sure on the mount russian war to me are flair and hogan if you're talking about the tears of mage there is no doubt that hulk hogan

19:30Peter Rosenberg: and Ric Flair on Tier 1 in the Tears of Mage.

19:33David Shoemaker: Yes, well, Tears of Mage, something SGG aptly brought up yesterday as well. Maybe it's time to re-up the Tears of Mage sometime soon because a lot has changed. But listen, if you do not think about SGG, we know a lot of your thoughts on Hogan changed over the years. If Hulk Hogan's personal life never comes into question, I don't think there is a world where anyone is not putting him on the Mount Rushmore. I just I wouldn't believe it. Like it it would literally be like I mean the only argument you can make I suppose is if you have a Mount Rushmore of baseball. Maybe there's a world in which someone doesn't leave Babe Ruth on because like well it was a long time ago and he was up against pitchers who weren't very good.

20:22David Shoemaker: But the fact of the matter is Babe Ruth, a hundred years after he played, in which there is almost no real video of him playing. There's like very little video of Babe Ruth. I think he's still the most famous baseball player who ever lived. Of course. He is the number one name in the history of baseball. Babe Ruth. And still, like, even right now, little kids will know who Babe Ruth is. To me, Hulk Hogan is that of professional wrestling. No question. When people say to you, when we used to make our joke, and if you're new to our show, you may not know it. But we like to have a joke. We have a fake conversation here about when you run into someone who's not interested in wrestling and is trying to figure out what you're interested in.

21:15David Shoemaker: And you say, oh, I love wrestling. They will literally say, oh, like Hulk Hogan? that is he is kleenex that's he is what's the other what's the other item out there that quilted northern ultra plush no i'm not talking about toilet paper q-tips q-tips he is a he is q-tip okay he is that is the only word people may know and there have been a lot of other great wrestlers who've come along some that are better in the ring some that are better on the mic but from a recognizability impact all of those things I don't think there's anything like him now I happen to feel guys that at least around the time when I became a smart fan it was like very like part of the transition into becoming a smart fan was was being like you know Hulk Hogan like he's not really good like he barely has any moves like I'm not a Hulk Hogan fan.

22:16David Shoemaker: I like Bret Hart. I like Macho Man. I like this one. And then you get, I think SGG. You know, people love putting those things up on social media. Growing up is realizing blank. For me as a wrestling fan, growing up is realizing Hulk Hogan was pretty damn good in the ring. he was not Dipp's favorite wrestler respectfully Warrior was not very good in the ring there was nothing that he did that looked realistic or good it was like just a really jacked up guy who looked like a million bucks but he looked like a wrestler he looked like a wrestler after Hulk Hogan he looked like a wrestler here's the thing that people don't realize about wrestling and it sort of makes these conversations frustrating there's a difference between wowing me and being good in the ring many people can wow me it's very easy to wow me a lot of people can hit a move i've never seen before that was impressive i never saw that before that was dope being good in the ring is not about wowing me it's about that emotional hook that making me feel something that like damn i'm in i'm connected so when people say oh so and so is not good in the ring it's because they're not wowed but then also in those moments when you are wowed what'd you feel it's like nothing after the moment passed gone it's it's gone and there are some people who can wow you and also be great in the ring i think about Shawn Michaels.

23:59I think about my guy, Bret Hart. Your former guy. No, no, he's my guy. I think about my guy, Roman Reigns. But being wowed and being great in the ring is two different things.

24:14David Shoemaker: Hogan was underrated athletic. He's thought of as not athletic because he didn't do anything off the ropes. But when you go back, guys, I'm telling you, go look at a compilation of leg drops. I'm sorry. Someone who's not athletic is not executing that leg drop perfectly six feet in the air every single time like that over and over and over again. So he's underrated as an athlete. By the way, if you were to ask him, he'd tell you he's the greatest baseball player who ever lived also. So if his ability to sell, is there anybody that much better? No. That's where you want to talk about the difference.

25:04David Shoemaker: You want to talk about why I laugh off Dipperstein when he says that Warrior is his favorite versus if someone says Hogan. Warrior could not sell. He did not sell. I know. Savage and Hogan, both of them, I mean, they sold everything. The only reason the Hogan Hulk up works so well is because a couple of minutes ago when he was holding his back and falling down to his knees outside the ring, you believed he was actually in trouble. that's what allowed him to do the exact same thing right after every time because the path to getting there was such an emotional journey and dip i will say right now he's mount rushmore of working punches in my opinion love the hogan working punch oh you mean like the grab the head

25:57Peter Rosenberg: and punch thing you like that love i never liked that i never loved the working punch i get it i I get why someone could like it. For me, the, the head grab punch, not in love.

26:11David Shoemaker: You're not feeling it. I'm not feeling it. You're not in, you're not in love with the Hogan working punch.

26:17Peter Rosenberg: The greatest thing that he did in the ring was the Hulk up. I mean, that's, that's the greatest thing he did in the ring. You know, he, he, he didn't have any aerial moves. Obviously he didn't really, by the way,

26:28David Shoemaker: almost no one did at the time. If we're being, no, no,

26:31Peter Rosenberg: it wasn't popular. um you know it's sort of hard to pinpoint besides the leg drop and the boot and the hulking up he didn't really do anything in the corner he didn't really he occasionally chopped actually an occasional chopper very rare was he a chopper it happened and and you know it was all just a lot of pageantry i'm not really sure i could speak to his like incredible in-ring physical ability

27:00David Shoemaker: I would say no but again that's back to SG's point you mean from a doing things that wow you but when you talk about doing all the little things that make a wrestling match feel like a fight oh there's almost no one better ever that's what he did he didn't have no you're right if you made it feel like a battle a battle it was if you're trying to think about the moves that he did It was literally punch, lock up, body slam, leg drop, occasional chop, occasional suplex, clothesline.

27:38Peter Rosenberg: But let me just say the beauty of that. We're almost out. When he did a suplex or anything out of the ordinary, a Hogan suplex was like, that was very effective.

27:52David Shoemaker: It's such a great point. Like when he would randomly, sometimes he'd hit the fisherman suplex and hook the leg. And you'd be like, oh my God, he's digging into his bag. But then you go back. And if you go back and you watch his stuff in Japan, not to be that guy, but it must be said. You go watch the stuff in Japan and you're like, he technically for a guy who is 6 '7". Let me just put it this way. There are guys 6 '7 and bigger who are more athletic and even better in the ring. Razor certainly comes to mind. He's close to it, right? Him and Hogan are almost the same height. Yes. I believe he was 6 '6.

28:38David Shoemaker: Yeah, he's almost there. Could have been 6 '8. He was never as big as Hogan, but big. But guys, Hogan belongs in the category practically of giants. There aren't that many. Undertaker, of course, who's the number one freak of all time. Well, yeah. At 6 '11", Undertaker's probably the most athletic wrestler we've ever seen. Yes. Yeah. So like there's not a lot of guys with an incredibly diverse aerial moveset over 6 '7". So we hold Hogan. He would get held to the standard that I think I get it. He's the biggest name. When you're that highly rated, you absolutely deserve to be picked apart. But now with the hindsight to look back at it, this guy, I mean, meaningful stuff with, I heard JR with Coach yesterday.

29:34David Shoemaker: and what a great point J.R. made. He made one mistake though that I'll include, but he said when you think about people like Big John Studd and King Kong Bundy, how much did you hear about them in the other parts of their career that didn't include Hulk Hogan? Not that much. The only problem was he included Savage in that, and that was just pure hate because Savage is one of the greatest of all time. Stop yourself. His greatest feud is with Hogan. No question. Hogan helped him. No, there's no question about it. His career benefited because of Hogan. But there's no question, Hogan, when it was time for Hogan to be the other guy, you can look at WrestleMania 4 ends, and when Savage has his big moment, Hogan's still in the ring.

30:21David Shoemaker: And if you're a Hogan hater— On purpose, but yes. Of course. And if you're a Hogan hater, you could say, oh, look, even then he's in the ring. But they needed him there. there's a he had to be there for that moment that was part of it he he created and was the star

30:38Peter Rosenberg: of the biggest moment in the history of wcw which is the formation of the nwo he's the guy in that moment was there and and that is the biggest moment in the history of wcw

30:51David Shoemaker: end of story scg i want at some point i'm going to get get to you and ask you this question but right now for you, Dip, is there anyone else that it could have been as the third man that would have had anything close to the effect that it had with Hogan as the third man?

31:05Peter Rosenberg: The only person possible that it would have made one eighth of the impact is Sting. That is the only other person that, I mean, I at that point in my life was watching that. I definitely watched it live for sure at that time. I was 10. No, I was, I was nine in 1996 I thought that sting was going to be the guy in the NWO I never in a million years thought it was going to be hope that's not what any eight nine year old would ever think watching WCW at that time it was it was impossible to I also at that time had so I wasn't even thinking about Hogan I know that he was in WCW I gotta be when I was a kid I don't want to belittle you know I'm not, I'm not, you know, I don't want to say too many ill will things about Hulk Hogan in this conversation, but truly in kayfabe in, in the, in the, my mind of kayfabe at that time, I had basically written off Hogan when he left WWE.

32:06David Shoemaker: By the way, you're not, you're not the only one. I mean, it wasn't working. The skinny, the skinny Hogan of 94, 95 WCW was kind of a nothing burger. It turned out to be a disappointment at first.

32:20Peter Rosenberg: Yeah. I mean, after after the Slaughter Hogan feud in 91, I basically had written off Hogan as like a top guy even in my own in my childhood mind. It was just all about Warrior and all about Savage and all about LOD at that time. Those were like what I was excited to see on TV. and in WCW it was Sting and you know Vader and stuff like that that's what I was like craving every week wasn't Hogan Hogan the Hogan cravings ended after Wrestlemania 7 let's face it and listen you're not alone right I bring this up all the time lowest attended mania is that exact mania that you're talking about that they had to move to a smaller venue even though Hogan was advertised and he was presumably on his way to another triumphant WrestleMania victory.

33:17David Shoemaker: But listen, the fact of the matter is, and this is why it continued that way in 94 and 95 in WCW, and I'm not trying to make excuses for Hogan because he passed away yesterday, but I really do think, SGG, time had just moved on from what that character was. Like that, the kids, the kids who were seven when that was working in 1986, 87, were now 14. They didn't need it anymore.

33:45Peter Rosenberg: And it was time. I would extend the Sid feud. The skinnier he got, the less muscle the guy had on his body, the less I was interested as a child.

33:55David Shoemaker: By the way, has that really changed with you at all? No, no.

33:59Peter Rosenberg: But the Sid feud was interesting to me, I guess, leading up to WrestleMania 8. But then after that, I mean, you know, with the with the with the Yokozuna stuff and, you know, leading into nine and it just. That was, you know, and then when he comes back and is, you know, and he's the third man, it's like all of a sudden an entire new generation of wrestling fans have rediscovered him. And for those who were children, literally, when he was at his height in WWE, you know, he became like the cool guy. I mean, he became cool again.

34:36David Shoemaker: I have a question I'm going to ask you guys, and I want your answer on the other side. Who out there is as good as both a babyface and heel as Hulk Hogan in history? Think about that. We'll answer it on the other side. It's Cheap Heat Live. We're looking back at the life of Hulk Hogan right here on Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7. Well, ladies and gentlemen, here is the The champion of the world of the WWF, Hulk Hogan, who is preparing for his pre-match, while he will have King Kong Buddy with the giant Andri in his corner. Hulk Hogan, we'd like to wish you a happy new year! What do you mean happy new year, Pee-wee?

35:19I'm ready right now to crawl through the hottest desert, to swim the deepest seas, to climb the highest mountain. And the only way it'd be a happy new year for me was if I could wipe out Bunda Mania and get my hands on that big, nasty, stinking giant. So, ladies and gentlemen, he's ready. Back to you, gentlemen.

35:42David Shoemaker: Welcome back to Cheap Heat Live on Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7. We had lots of things we were going to discuss today. And by the way, you can subscribe to the podcast wherever you find podcasts. And we have a Patreon page, Stay Mage, Stay M-A-J, that you can find on Patreon. and please follow us there as well. We did do a whole other show that got scrapped, but that show does exist there. We talked about everything that's happened this week, a lot of stories. We talked about Goldberg. We talked about this, that, and of course all of that put aside now so we can talk about Hulk Hogan. I asked a question before the break and I want to get your guys' answers right now.

36:20David Shoemaker: The question was, who in the history of wrestling worked as well, baby face and heel as Hulk Hogan? Dipp? Shawn Michaels. that's my answer that's all right there he is that is definitive the only person i see a head nodding in the in the waiting room and it is our friend the masked man aka david shoemaker you were nodding your head shoe do you agree with that assessment that the the only other one who could do both so well was hbk that's the first one that came to mind for me can you guys

36:52Peter Rosenberg: hear me okay he's so crispy so crispy he sounds he's a professional talk about getting skinnier. This man is rail thin at this point. It's the lights. The ringer pays a lot for this lighting system and make me look as skinny as can be.

37:06David Shoemaker: Shoemaker, you didn't know you are among one of the only people who sees you and physically is jealous of you is Brian Dipperstein. I know people who are intellectually jealous, professionally, physically, it's just Dipperstein. It's true. Alright, so for those who don't listen to the Masked Man show, they do a great job over on the ringer and of course Of course, Shoemaker, one of the foremost writers and minds and producers when it comes to all things history of pro wrestling. I know you. I know you think about context and things that happen well before it ever happens. What had you thought that it would be like on the day that Hulk Hogan passed away?

37:49David Shoemaker: And how did the reality of yesterday sort of match up with what you thought it might be?

37:57Peter Rosenberg: um god that's a good question pretty good question well we had it we had a test run right we had that we had that bubble the love sponge rumor that hulk hogan was on his deathbed which may have

38:06David Shoemaker: been truer than we realized at the time yeah a couple weeks ago yep and i remember when that

38:10Peter Rosenberg: happened i said to i mentioned it to my wife in the other room and she said well certainly you already have this one pre-written of all of the obituaries you've definitely done this one and i I said, no, this is the one I've been dreading for the past like 10 years. You know, this is what I don't want to spend any time with at all. And then I said, you know what? You're right, though. I should put something down on paper. I didn't. So I've spent the whole day trying to get my thoughts down. And they're kind of a jumbled mess. But, you know, I do think that I, you know, I mean, it's whatever. It's an obituary.

38:48Peter Rosenberg: I think on the level, probably I came out much more, I wouldn't say positive, but sort of nostalgic about Hulk Hogan than I did angry about Hulk Hogan. I think it's kind of easy to be a prisoner of the moment. And look, I would have rather the last 15 years hadn't existed, you know, but but but, you know, like I said, like I was going through my personal Hulk Hogan memories. and it's just i mean dude i mean i was there in what what year was it uh uh when he came back to rescue sean michaels from muhammad hassan like i was at msg when that happened like jumping out of my seat you know like i like it was 2005 yeah it was gotta set that was a little bit later but yeah it was right that would have been and i i just i mean like we it had been teased so it wasn't like it was out of nowhere but to be at msg when that music hit at that moment was just like I wasn't excited about a Hulk Hogan match, but to be a part of it, it's like the Undertaker's entrance.

39:46Peter Rosenberg: You're just like, oh my God, I get to be here when this happens. I'm sure you talked about the time that we interviewed him. I talked a little bit about it on my podcast today, but I remember when we were interviewing him and we were waiting in the studio and waiting and waiting and waiting. Then finally, they were like, he's here. He just pulled up. I was like, I can't wait. I got to go to the bathroom. I got to go to the bathroom before he gets here. and I sprinted to the bathroom and I ran the door and he somehow was already there in the bathroom and I was like, I'm just going to pretend I'm not.

40:18Peter Rosenberg: Wait, because Dip has a peeing with Hogan story as well. No, no, Hogan was not peeing. What was he doing? He was looking in the mirror, putting in his hair plugs into his bandana. His what? Or his wig, whatever it was. It was hair extensions and I was just like, of course, my plan from the moment I saw him was to pretend like I wasn't, you know, I couldn't see it. I just snuck around. You don't want to see that. You don't want to see that. No, I don't. Nor did I want my introduction to him, my hello to be in front of the mirror, you know, in the bathroom. That's like grandma taking out her dentures.

40:51Peter Rosenberg: You don't want to. You don't know who wants to see it. We've all seen it, but you don't want to. Yeah, no. But yeah, I mean, but that's sort of it was a sort of perfect introduction to Hulk Hogan the person. He was just like my absolute, you know, one of my idols at that point. And just like that was maybe the most human moment you could have possibly, you know, seen him in. I hate that he was so he had the foresight to not go full, just like get the whole head of hair that he just went and got the pieces in the back that like he knew that he couldn't go all the way. So he went just with the piece.

41:27I hate that he was working that. Let me tell you something. Like on that. The man was a worker.

41:31Peter Rosenberg: Let me tell you something. We don't even talk about the fact that this man lived with a bandana on his head for 30 years. Yeah. I mean, I mean, David Shoemaker lives with a baseball cap on his head his whole life for 30 years. This guy lives with a bandana. He's constantly futzing. Do you know the amount of futzing this man has been doing his whole life? He's he's on the Mount Rushmore of futzers. didn't he wear the bandana i feel like he wore the bandana in the gawker trial and it was a it was a point he has the formal he has the formal yeah bandana

42:05David Shoemaker: the black one the black bandana is his formal bandana when he's leaving the house he's like honey where's my good bandana like that's now it's a conversation now shoemaker i want to try to find it um i don't know if i will do you remember what we talked about in that interview

42:22Peter Rosenberg: with him no i mean all i remember is that we that when we let when the interview was over you and i just sat there silent for a minute and then we were like holy shit and we were like running through everything we talked about and everything that we like that we had like five questions that we were like he's never talked about this before like we thought we had like broken all this new ground and we had and then either because that's what he had prepped for the day or because we, I think probably because we just put those questions, those answers in his head. He went out and did a bunch of other media that day where he just told the same stories that we got out of him over and over again.

43:00Peter Rosenberg: More. We thought we had like the biggest exclusive in the history of the world.

43:04David Shoemaker: Again, more classic, more classic Hulk Hogan. Yeah, he can't help himself. When he gets going, he gets going. Did you do?

43:15Peter Rosenberg: It's crazy to think though that when we did that interview

43:17David Shoemaker: and what was that 2000 uh it's it's it's the year before everything happened because yes it's it's because 10 years ago to the day of yesterday is when the horrible audio leaked this was the summer slam prior this is august 2014 yeah that we interviewed him and then in 2015 it all

43:40Peter Rosenberg: came crashing down well it seems it somehow seems even longer than that but it's funny that 2014 felt like the end. I mean, not like he was about to die, but we were just like, we got to get him because this is the end of his career. And every day since then has been like a version of Hulk Hogan that we're not excited to talk about. That was the year warrior died too. Yeah.

44:06He obviously is, to me, the most iconic.

44:10David Shoemaker: I don't know. Do you ever debate that there may be someone more iconic in pro wrestling. I know it's trite at this point, but he really is the Babe Ruth of professional wrestling. It's hard to think of who else is in that conversation. It's only Rick.

44:26Peter Rosenberg: Yeah, and it's only Rick because of his comparison to Hulk Hogan. I mean, I think I said on my show today, there's so many of the guys that we would compare to Hulk Hogan, not saying necessarily people are bigger, but everybody is just in comparison to Hogan. We love Macho Man in comparison to Hulk Hogan. You know, we like it's Ric Flair was so I mean, Ric Flair is one of the greatest workers of all time. Sure. But he was also known as such because he was so much better than Hulk Hogan. You know, he was like he like stood out in relief. I think Ric Flair has a case for transcendence, you know, just in terms of like whatever hip hop lyrics and stuff.

45:04Peter Rosenberg: But like but no, I mean, Hulk Hogan is the guy. He's just, he's, he's the guy on, it was on his back that pro wrestling became as big a deal of it as it is today.

45:15David Shoemaker: So when you write, when you finish this obit, how much ends up being about just how much his, the shitty off the field stuff, for lack of a better word, has complicated his legacy? How much time do you spend on that versus how much time do you spend on just the impact in wrestling, which is so great?

45:38Peter Rosenberg: Well, I feel like the, I mean, the thing is, my piece is going to be relatively short. I mean, not like brief, but, you know, it's not exhaustive in terms of the history. But I feel like I spend less time on the sort of drama broadly defined than I could have. But I sort of the over but overwhelmingly, I think the tone is certainly more downbeat than it would have been had it had that stuff not happened. Right. I mean, I think that, like, for instance, I'm more focused on his sort of lies and his inability to escape his own kayfabe than I would have been had this been just a purely happy story, you know.

46:11Peter Rosenberg: And I think that – because I do think that all feeds into it, like his inability to really like functionally apologize or grow after the tape came out I think is part and parcel with like his – I mean Ric Flair gets all the credit for just becoming the nature boy. But Hulk Hogan, man, I mean hair extensions aside was about – lived the gimmick about as much as anybody ever has.

46:36David Shoemaker: Well, yeah, but the interesting thing is, is that the Hogan gimmick is such a cartoon that to live it doesn't age well. And I said this with Dave LaGreca yesterday. In addition to all the things Hogan did that were a disservice to himself, whenever the decision was made, hey, when you come out on TV now, you're going to say or I'm going to say, let me tell you one thing, brother. Something. Not one thing. What did I say?

47:06Peter Rosenberg: I'll tell you something. Not one thing. Let me tell you one thing, brother. Trying to get past the copyrights out there.

47:15David Shoemaker: Yeah, I was trying to avoid us getting in trouble. No, ever since he famously said, I'd like to talk to you about something, brother. But once that became, let me tell you something, brother, was the way he had to start every promo. He immediately became uninteresting to me. I know, I know. It was like, it ruined it. It was like ruined it. It was death. I mean, look, you can tell I botched the line. Like that's how checked out I was on it even being, because it wasn't really a part of his great run. It was a made up sort of, let's sum up that whole old version in one catchy line. And it ruined him in addition to all the things he did.

47:58Yeah, I agree.

48:01David Shoemaker: And Flair aged into, We all know Flair is certainly an imperfect character, but he's more honest. And there's a real guy in there. And when he gets up and talks, you don't know what he's going to say when he lifts the mic to his mouth. It's not a generic written catchphrase.

48:19Peter Rosenberg: Yeah, but you have to like the. The strut, the Flair strut became crazy. It became crazier than. Oh, yeah. No, of course.

48:29David Shoemaker: You got to have your thing. But also Flair's look was always wearing a suit, which looks normal when you're 70. A tank top and the fake yellow hair starts to look insane. And I don't think that did him any services. Well, listen, we have another hour to talk about. And if you really want to hear a negative conversation about Hulk Hogan, Shoemaker has Bret Hart on his podcast next week. So there's a live show in New York. Where is it? Gramercy? At Gramercy on Thursday. Yeah, everybody's invited. Gramercy Theater Thursday night. Bret Hart will be on Masked Man Show with Kaz. So we'll see how Bret handles that moment.

49:08David Shoemaker: I'm sure it'll be very nuanced and low-key because that is Bret's style as we know. We have more to talk about over the next hour. Our friend Andrew Goldstein is going to join and we're going to talk more Hulk Hogan. All Hogan all day here today. It's the way it has to be as we say goodbye to the Hulkster right here on Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7. Let me tell you something, Hulkamaniacs. Now that I've had one more week to think about this thing, I'm glad we took on the so-called strongest man in the world, Dino Bravo. It was just one more chance for us to prove that the Pythons are the strongest and the largest, and that Hulkamania is the most powerful force in the WWF.

49:46But also, I had a chance to think about the darkness, about the warrior, that the fact that when the darkness prevails, they'll be static and there won't be a clear picture. You know, when I had Dino Bravo on his back, I was cheap-shotted by the Earthquake brothers. He tried to squash me like a grape, the life and breath almost out of my body. And then as I was regenerating myself, as I was stealing the energy from all my little holsters, the warrior hit the ring. Was it the natural food chain? Did he feel that I was wounded, that he could stalk this prey and make the kill? Or was it like my little holster said, he's just trying to protect you, man.

50:23He's not the enemy. I don't believe either one. I don't know what his mission is, but I know one thing, Hulkamaniacs. It was like a total eclipse of the sun. It was like the moon passed between the sun and the earth. I felt the darkness, and in the arena, there was a cold hush, and all of a sudden, I realized the Hulkamaniacs didn't like the feeling. Hulk Hogan didn't like the feeling. We live in the sun. We're positive. We're the training, the prayers, and the vitamins, and the darkness is not for us, but ultimate warrior just like the moon and the sun and the earth we're all as one we're an energy brother the only thing different now is we're divided on each sides of the fence the energy of the warrior versus the energy of hulkamania brother and just like the sun the moon and the earth we're all together and ashes to ashes just the dust at the end of wrestlemania it'll be the

51:20David Shoemaker: Welcome back to Hour 2 of Cheap Heat Live on Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7 here on Sirius XM Channel 156. Obviously a very, very complicated and long weekend that no one expected. And I will say, the timing in terms of at least if you're a wrestling fan, having places to go to have these conversations. What a cool thing that we have this channel where all weekend long people will be breaking down a guy who, frankly, whose life needs, you need time and you need nuance. This Hulk Hogan does not make for a good 30 second Instagram clip. He requires some more time for a lot of reasons. But a guy who is one of my first pro wrestling friends, a guy who my first friend I ever knew who worked in WWE when he had a, as he would put it, a cup of coffee on the writing team.

52:20David Shoemaker: Now, now way back, you know, almost 20 years ago, but a huge lifelong wrestling fan and avid supporter of the product to this day, friend of ours, friend of the show. So Andrew Goldstein is here. And Gold, you are the one, you tend to be the one who breaks terrible news on our group chat in general. And you dropped a bomb on us yesterday when you sent us this bit. But I know that you've been feeling it. So just take us through the feeling so far on this passing of Hulk Hogan. Well, first off, thank you for having me. Congratulations on the move to Sirius. It's extremely mage. Yeah, I appreciate the outlet.

53:06I mean, it's, I'm going to try to put this in where it's, you kind of, someone like me, I forget how much, I forget sometimes how much sort of being a Hulkamaniac has, was a, basically my entire personality for my, you know, formative years into like my 20s and 30s. because when something like this happens, my phone did not stop buzzing. And I'm not a relative. I worked with them in here and there, but would not say he even knew who I was. You know, my phone didn't stop buzzing texts, DMS, people responding to the few things that I did post. And so you kind of forget, like, I kind of forget that I've been this like outward Hulkamaniac for so long.

53:58And obviously it got complicated as relationships do with your heroes. But yeah, man, 1986, literally the last thing I posted on X before this news drop, you can look, the last thing that I posted was I reposted the clip, the anniversary clip of the Paul Orndorff turn on Hulk Hogan in 1986 to join the Heenan family, the clothesline, the pile driver, the celebration in, in, in the, um, in the dressing room. And that I always, I always say that's the angle that hooked me as a fan. But, um, and so it's just this like ubiquitous part of my life. I had the posters in my room. I went to matches at the spectrum.

54:41Um, I had the shirts, I had the dolls, uh, all that, all that stuff. And, uh, let me, let me ask you a question

54:48David Shoemaker: that I have gotten several times since yesterday when I was talking in different places where people didn't have much context and were trying for me to provide some on Hulk Hogan. They asked this really simple question that I think is actually super thought-provoking. They asked, what was it about him? What did his character say or do that made it work so much? Why did kids gravitate so much? And I think that's like in some ways a little more complicated than just the fact that he looked like a million bucks. Yeah, and that's what I wanted to get to. I was rambling. The reason I reached out to you was like, there's gonna be a lot of people talking about this and it's gonna devolve into lots of political and racial conversations.

55:43But what I wanted to put forward is just like, that moment in time that cult, like the fact that it was a almost global cultural moment, directly, um, targeted and marketed towards me as an eight year old at that time. Right. Like you can't underestimate how much of an effect as an eight year old, I would say like eight to 15 year old like that does to your brain like the SNL cast you grew up you grew up watching those are the goats to you right the quarterback you grew up rooting for that he's going to be the goat your entire life it's sort of the same with wrestling but Hulk Hogan was like a different level because we had never seen that type of superstar I mean wrestlers looked like Dusty Rhodes, right?

56:38Like Ric Flair was sort of the outlier. Everybody else kind of looked like Dusty or looked like Arne. They were these barroom guys with beer bellies and hairy chests. And here came this guy who was like six, seven, just like the 24 inch pythons, the weird like bald head, but long blonde hair, the handlebar mustache. It was just this confluence of things and decisions that he made in terms of his presentation. And obviously you add on top of that, the genius of Vince in terms of marketing him as, as a plushie doll, as an action figure, as a cartoon, as a pitch man, it goes on and on. And like I said, it's, it's hard to explain to people who were, who grew up after that, the cultural moment that happened.

57:26We all lived through Austin. We all lived through rock. We all lived through Sina. We all lived through Roman Reigns. But But to me, it just does not compare to that cultural moment, 1986 to 1988.

57:39David Shoemaker: Well, one thing that makes it particularly crazy is that if you had tickets to a show at the Spectrum, or in my case, the Capitol Center, or in Greg's case, though, his parents never took him to Madison Square Garden. Not once. Even though we know, in fact, his dad, they could have brought him. They just didn't want to, let's be honest. if you went to a show and he was not on the show that is a vastly different experience more so it would be interesting to even think of the closest comp in terms of if they weren't there you were like, I mean, it was cool, but the guy wasn't there because every other generation has had a multitude of stars.

58:33David Shoemaker: And eventually, you know, I think by the time you get to 90, you know, Randy's on the show. That's pretty cool. Like there are some people that you can go, All right. But there's a period, there's a window in 86, 87. You go to the show and Hulk Hogan's not on it. What are we talking about here? You know what I'm saying? Like, I just think that makes his positioning in the company unique to all of the other potential Mount Rushmore people that exist. to be eight or nine in the spectrum and real american hits that guitar riff it was it was insane it was like literally like mind melting to be to to be and see it live especially you know you watch it every saturday morning it's like i'm never going to be in this guy's presence And then you're like, you're seeing him walk out of the tunnel.

59:32And it's not the presentation that we know of today where the show is sort of the main event, right? Like all the WWE production, the WCW production became like, if you didn't like wrestling, you'd still go for the multimedia experience, right? Like people say that all the time. It's like, wow, this is a really fun show. Right.

59:48David Shoemaker: You can take a corporate executive to a WWE show and they can be engaged whether they care or not. But if you went in 87, 88, 89, you were there to see Hulk Hogan. There was no, like, yeah, it was cool that you got to see Ricky Steamboat versus Morocco. But you were waiting for that music to hit for real Americans. Well, here's the thing, too. In one way that it will truly never be the same again. And this isn't just about our nostalgia. This is a fact. when you see the baby face reaction that Hogan got in 1986 87 that look of pandemonium you know like I always picture the one where he's got the uh he's got part of his uh thing in his mouth yeah the Hulkamania things in his mouth and he's walking out that level of pandemonium cannot exist anymore people are on their phones it just isn't that like there will never be that There will be excitement and there will be passion, but that version of like legitimate pandemonium was also a product of the times that he happened to be the guy during the time.

1:01:03David Shoemaker: Think about it. It is the perfect moment in the space time continuum. Word to Doc Brown. When you still have the believability of the regional territory era before it hitting the big cable TV era excitement. We all knew who he was. Right. But with the innocence still. So he was also, in addition to the character, in addition to the look, in addition to Vince McMahon and everything they did, he also was the perfect star for that exact moment. Right. And so when Bundy crushes his ribs and then you go to your live event, you see him and he's got the taped up ribs. There's a belief that you're not like, oh, he's selling.

1:01:50there's a belief there that he's got three broken ribs but he's still hulking up and kicking out a

1:01:56David Shoemaker: two so seemingly lay up question but I want to ask you as a as a huge fan who is the ultimate rival for Hulk Hogan when you look at his career Here we go. It's a good question because obviously, I mean, I could be a nerd right now and tell you like the ongoing cycle of building Hogan heels just for Hogan to beat them and they leave the company, right? You could rattle them off. People will, you know, A &E will tell you it was Andre, but like that wasn't my experience.

1:02:32David Shoemaker: I've often said it's Heenan in the past because he was sort of the familiar face. I would get down with that just because he was the one bringing in the heels constantly. It was Hogan versus the Heenan family. Again, I make this argument about Cena. Cena's had many rivals, but he doesn't have one chief rival. We could argue that. Randy Orton, Edge, whatever. Hogan, it's sort of the same thing. People will also say Hogan Piper, but I don't think Hogan Piper transcended. It was a big deal and it helped catapult WWF to what it became. But I don't feel like Hogan Piper stood the test of time and they had these knockdown drag outfits.

1:03:18David Shoemaker: So if you were to picture one, if you have to picture one, it ends up being – If I close my eyes, it's Bundy. That's interesting. But it never – there's just two matches. You just destroyed all the goodwill of Hogan historian building that you did by going Bundy. well so what would you say sgg what's the one that you picture who is it i feel like piper everybody's overlooking randy savage but definitely piper right because you know rock and wrestling hogan gets all the credit but it really was piper's face on mtv piper did all that piper and hogan and wrestlemania one main event the cartoon hogan and the good guys piper's with the bad guys i guess my answer is that wrestling was very different back then there weren't i mean until you get to savage there was no elongated story beyond like the eight weeks where they told the andre story or the you know the two events where they told the bundy story or the you know half a year that they told the orndor story but i you know keenan macho man and then when you get to uh wcw you could probably go you know sting goldberg wrestles piper and wcw too they did yeah they brought it back they did bring that back i don't know i'm not i'm not great at these type of questions just because i know it's hard because they're stupid questions in the sense that being forced to choose one thing he's not this is not magic and bird he but it goes to the character that they built like right hogan was this destroyer this like baby face destroyer this like fighter of for good so anybody they brought into the territory i mean Kamala, a one-man gang.

1:05:07It's everyone. He beat everybody. That's why Ultimate Warrior was such an earth shift, because you had never seen Hogan get beat that way.

1:05:18David Shoemaker: What do you think is the most, besides The Rock, what do you think was the most fun or interesting Hogan story of the modern era? because he did end up in the post-WCW career having several really fun things. There's the Shawn Michaels. There's Randy Orton. There's tagging with Edge. He did a bunch of sort of fun stuff in what ended up being essentially the last run.

1:05:49I'll say Hogan and Carl Malone, Hogan and Rodman, that whole sort of like, you know, um, integration into the NBA finals thing. Like you look back on that. My friend Neil Ponce line went on a Pablo Tori show and broke the whole thing down. It was, it was incredible. Um, you look back on that and it's like, nobody else pulls that off, but, but Hulk Hogan, I mean, nobody gets Dennis Rodman to like leave practice in the middle of the NBA finals to go work for WCW unless he got to tag with Hogan. There's no one else of that stature that it means enough to basically F your day job.

1:06:31David Shoemaker: SGG, Dave LaGreca said something yesterday that I thought was really interesting. If Hogan's not the third man, what is the history of the NWO? and like is there is there anyone who could have walked out in that moment where nwo would have went to the heights that it went to not that it couldn't have been something basically nexus right like is there anyone you know what i mean the closest person was the guy he leg dropped i think randy savage was the closest person who has a shot at being the third man and making it But we had seen Savage as a heel. True. We've gotten to know him, but he was working super babyface at that time.

1:07:16David Shoemaker: But yes, we had seen it before. I don't think the shock would have been that. What about Stinger? I don't think so because WCW, right? He was a WCW guy through and through. I mean, maybe. But that invasion of the WWE guys was what it was. You had the longest reigning champion of the 90s, Kevin Nash, Razor Ramon, Hogan, who was the champion of the 80s, WWF, Benefactor, the next guy that pops out is Million Dollar Man, Ted DiBiase. So as they just rotate in these WWE guys, I think a WCW guy doesn't make sense in that spot. I think Dip would say Warlord. Well, of course. Goes without saying. it is it's it's a pretty incredible thing to think about and I think that what we got to watch recently with John Cena and who knows what's going to happen between now and the end of the year but unless something dramatic happens John Cena had an opportunity to say like here's the apples to apples comparison i'm gonna show you i'm better than hogan you would be hard pressed to say that so far he has won that discussion

1:08:39oh without a doubt he had a chance i mean the way that angle started dude it it rocked the world in

1:08:46David Shoemaker: a way that only can be compared to the third man yeah it was a third man moment for sure and and And since then, we can argue whether some people think it's better than others, but it certainly hasn't lived up to what year one of NWO was. Think about it. This would only be the equivalent of being like six months into NWO. Like it was still rocking at this point. So it is interesting that we just kind of got that comparison towards the end of Hogan's life. Peter, I have a question for you. Go ahead. If it's OK. I was thinking all day about, like I said earlier, a cultural moment, trying to find something that works as a comparison.

1:09:31I want to run this by you. Being, let's say, between 8 and 14 in 86, 87, 88, Hulkamania hits that whole moment, that whole feeling. the only thing I could come up with is being that in that age range now as a young female and being a Swifty like essentially like a year ago during the Aeros tour.

1:10:00David Shoemaker: I mean it is I'm too distanced from it to be able to make a comp but based on what I've seen that's that's what I'm going off of it's just yeah from the outside it looks like literally Similarly, if you are a 10-year-old girl, you know, if you're a 10-year-old girl in the suburbs, you are into Taylor Swift, period. Like there is just no other way to be. I would say it's probably, with respect to Hulk Hogan, considerably bigger. But that's fair. For inflation, you – Yeah, you have to add inflation. You have to add inflation. And I believe that in Hulk Hogan's prime, you could have seen him at the Spectrum for$18.50, and that same seat would be$458 to see Taylor Swift.

1:10:49David Shoemaker: But that's interesting. Taylor also turned down the George Foreman grill, little known fact. Do you remember any of the matches you saw of his in person as a kid? here's the crazy here's the crazy one and i always talk about this with my brothers is um uh my dad took us to see it was supposed to be hogan and steamboat it's actually a very famous spectrum card it was supposed to be hogan and steamboat versus morocco fuji and i and forgive me i forget who the other worker was supposed to be it was like let's say i think it was beefcake And that person didn't show up. So the match ended up being Hogan and Steamboat versus, oh, sorry, it was Hogan and Steamboat versus Morocco, Valentine, and Beefcake.

1:11:40But something happened with Valentine and Beefcake where they weren't there. So the match ended up being Hogan and Steamboat versus Morocco, Fuji, and Johnny Valiant.

1:11:51David Shoemaker: that is such a random house show match and as a kid you probably popped so big to see fuji working like having a match it was it's one of those things now like we're all smart and nerdy now and you're just like oh they were backstage and the agents were just like johnny get your sparkly jacket on because you're working in the main event exactly but as a kid you're like no friggin way. And he's doing like squats in the corner of his spectrum locker room. Like, ugh, are you kidding me? But that was a weird one. That was the time period. I saw Bulldogs, I saw Hart Foundation, all that stuff. Yeah, and you know, I've...

1:12:31What I remember is the mishmash match.

1:12:34David Shoemaker: I famously saw him against Killer Khan during that run at the Capitol Center. He took down every monster heel. Yeah, and apparently at points they'd run so dry that they'd have to go grab someone like Killer Khan and say, this is going to have to do for right now. Earthquake. I mean, his cage match with Boss Man, underrated. Yeah. By the way, there's – Earthquake, that whole deal. There's something – here's the thing about being iconic. You go from being overrated to being underrated. Yeah. That's like – because – and I mentioned this earlier on the show. Like the second you pass away. Well, but you, you, the second you become a smart fan.

1:13:19David Shoemaker: I said this earlier. I think the first smart fan take is Hulk Hogan's not a good wrestler. Cause like that was your way to tell people you were more into wrestling. Like you were like, no, I really like know about this. Like he's not very good. Like he didn't do a lot of moves. And that narrative got so loud that it actually started underselling. like he's pretty good in the ring guys he's six seven 300 pounds like no he was not climbing the ropes and doing crazy things that wasn't what his style was supposed to be but we always talk we always talk about this he was a master seller all the time like that's why the comeback worked so well because when you'd see him beaten up his nasty stringy hair he's like crawling around outside the ring he the reason the comeback worked is because he sold so well and then everyone undersold the athleticism of the leg drop which now when you watch a replay i don't know about you guys my thought is like how did he get that high up on the leg drop he was he was six seven 300 pounds there are times when it looks like he's five or six feet completely parallel to the ground I was such a nerd that when people made that argument, I was like, well, actually in the magazines, there are pictures from Japan where he's, you know, like the iconic pictures of him wearing the black hair with the silver Japanese letter on it.

1:14:49David Shoemaker: And that was the over nerdy comeback to the he can't wrestle thing. Andrew, thanks for adding your perspective. You're a super knowledgeable wrestling fan and Hogan fan. So we appreciate it. Thanks for having me. And yeah, if you didn't live it, man, you just don't know. You had to be there. Yeah, but watch the – but the docs do a decent job showing how crazy it was. It was pretty crazy. All right, we have more next, more people to talk to. And we are here in the middle of hour two as we say goodbye to the late Hulk Hogan right here on Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7. We know we've about had enough to hear, man.

1:15:31WrestleMania, the pressure, you know, all that coming down on my shoulders. Everywhere I go, it's always something, and especially the Boston Gardens, man. Every time I come here, something goes down, man. Well, I've had it up to here. The Hulkamaniacs have had it up to here. We want a winner and a loser, and enough of this gaga, man. Harley Race. Andre the Giant was easy. Me, brother, compared to what you did to me in the Boston Gardens. You know, some people make on-the-spot decisions, man. do crazy things, go to prison for life sometimes. And right now, man, the only thing I care about is getting you back in the ring of the Boston Gardens in a match with no rules, no time limits.

1:16:16I don't even care if there's a referee in the building. Hell yeah, man, this may sound crazy. World title on the line, King. And I don't care, man. If I can't beat you in that type of match, or if you beat me, man, I'll quit wrestling. I'll hang it up for good. I'll hand the world headweight title to Bobby the Weasel here. But we've had it up to here. Boston's not going for it. I'm not going for it. The Hulkamaniacs have had it up to here with you.

1:16:47David Shoemaker: Welcome back to Cheap Heat Live on Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7. I'm Peter Rosenberg. Stack Guy Greg is here. Brian Dipperstein, of course, at the Dipperstein. He was with us earlier. but had to go to agenting things. SGG, one of the most insane things that is not really getting talked about, at least in what I've seen, is the fact that yesterday was the 10-year anniversary to the day of the famous, infamous, you know, just reputation-crushing audio that came out about Hulk. The day that we first put you on the microphone or what of. In a real way, yeah. In a real way, where Cheap Heat truly became the version that it is now, at least the beginnings of that, was 10 years to the day.

1:17:42Like, the irony that the anniversary

1:17:48David Shoemaker: of the day that kind of just killed his brand and reputation, at least in the fullest way, that he died 10 years later to the day. It's just, I don't know what to make of it, but it is wild. The way I think about it is, you know, the tapes came out. We actually went and recorded that day, me, you, and Shoemaker. We spoke about it at length. I think that audio has been lost to history. If you have it, save somewhere. Please share it with us. would love to look back and hear that. Damn, you don't have a copy of your own first episode? I don't have it. No, I don't have it. God, I wonder if I do. That's crazy.

1:18:32David Shoemaker: All right, keep going. I don't have it. But the way I think about it is, you know, we talked about him sort of redeeming himself and coming back from this and, you know, with some accountability and some atonement. And he got a 10 count and he never made it back to the ring. it's you know it's it's fascinating because a lot of time has passed and it's kind of hard to remember everything that has happened um i was listening to some audio yesterday that i don't remember where it was from um apologies but i did hear audio in which he sounded he certainly sounded remorseful you know and not just on like i was caught as we know he famously in the um in the speech that he supposedly gave to the locker room the theme of it was like hey you got to watch out for those cameras brother the the audio that i heard from whichever appearance it was he certainly sounded more remorseful than that you know he definitely sounded like regretful of what was said and tried to make the case it wasn't representative of him but I also know there's a reason why a lot of people myself included certainly yourself included never felt like we got enough you know so that doesn't mean that he never said anything but I was always very clear not that I not that my opinion matters but I was always very clear on what I thought he needed to do I thought it was essentially he needed to go to the right platform and for lack of a better word and we're allowed to say this thanks to the lack of confines on satellite radio he needed to go to the right platform and eat shit that's the exact phrase that was in my head, by the way.

1:20:38David Shoemaker: That was it. He needed to do that. And it just felt like we never got that. And I really think it's heartbreaking because what I'm going to say now, I'm sure many people will not agree with it. And I'm sure certainly if you pulled it out of context, you could make me seem like however you want to make me seem. in spite of everything that he said that was absolutely horrible, I still don't know what is in the man's heart. I don't. I don't know what is in the man's heart. I don't know, did he go to sleep at night hating black people, not trusting them, not thinking black people are worthy? I don't know.

1:21:29David Shoemaker: But I know that's what he said, okay? I know that's what he said. And I know that at the very least, the ego of Terry Bollea prevented the forgiveness of Hulk Hogan. And that to me is tragic because there's a chance, and I know this is, some people will say, go F yourself, you're wrong. There's a chance in there he really did feel terrible and really did feel like I was in a, I don't know what the F I was talking about. that's not representative of who I am. But however he felt, he was not able to ever get in the right platform and say those words. Which is even more tragic. I hope he meant it.

1:22:18David Shoemaker: You better hope that he meant it. You know what I mean? Because as tragic as that would be, at least you just had horrible, disgusting views and you paid the price for them. But if you didn't even have those views and you just were too proud, SGG, to say, man, in that period of my life, look at me. Look at what I was even doing in the first place. Everything that was happening. Yeah, that's the wildest part is how, like, the tape that it's on. The tape that it was on. The whole thing is just insane. But I want to ask you a question. Now, when you say it's heartbreaking, do you mean for him or for his fans or like his family?

1:23:01Who is it heartbreaking for specifically?

1:23:04David Shoemaker: No, I feel it more for selfishly myself. Okay. I think that, no, I can't say it's heartbreaking for him because he never showed that he cared. You didn't show me that you cared. So I don't know that it's heartbreaking for you. I would say there's a chance for his kids, you know, for Brooke, that it's like a brutal thing to live down because maybe she had private conversations where she was like, what are you doing? I don't know. But I think for fans, it's heartbreaking because it messes up this awesome part of our childhood. Like that asterisk is such a sad thing that we all have to have. It's sad that you have to, every time a Hulk Hogan conversation comes up, and you're very good at putting it aside and having a wrestling conversation because, hey, what's on TV is a pretend anyway.

1:24:02David Shoemaker: But it still sucks for all of us that in the forefront of our mind is this, these horrible, unspeakable things that were said and that he never fixed. And we've all said this. He could have made it right. Even till now, he could have made it right. Yeah. He could have rocked it on his deathbed, just been like, you know what? I have one more thing I need to get off my chest before. before bro it just it's it sounds silly it's true it would have really affected people i i really i i feel for black wrestling fans and i also feel for all wrestling fans who are deeply offended by racism like it's it's just a it's just a really sad thing because you know when we recorded our an episode that is now lost till the to patreon it's not lost if you're a patron you can hear the episode we talked about hulk hogan on the episode moments before we found out that he passed and when we were doing that that was the first time i ever said i've realized that for me the only people i'm 100 comfortable with on the mount rushmore are hogan and flair that's me that's just for me everyone else to I disagree of course disagreed um but it's all on the page it's a good episode but to me for what he accomplished and how much he changed the game he is he is tier one he's on Mount Rushmore and I just uh I'm saddened that so much of the conversation today was about negative things that he did.

1:25:57David Shoemaker: And I hate that that's his doing. And it could have been a tiny little footnote if he had just done the right work afterwards. And I think there's a real lesson there for people about like, yo, listen, America does love to tear you down, but America loves a forgiveness and comeback story. Yeah. And look, I mean, unfortunately for him, he died with that being part of his legacy, right? Just like, and sadly, not even sadly, but it's probably at the forefront before people think about the wrestling and like, yeah, he slammed Andre and all that. They think about that. But for his fans, sometimes the lesson that people leave you is what not to do, how not to live your life, how not to get caught up in those same things and go down those same paths.

1:26:52And like, yeah, if you're somebody who has something that you need to atone for or apologize for, even it could be on the smallest scale, you know, you might want to take those steps before you get painted in that light. Like everything gets painted in that light, right? It's not like the girl who heat her pants and, you know, you bring that up 10 years later when she's in high school. This is huge. It's something that becomes a part of your character. Like, if you want to truly change, I would say take the steps.

1:27:26David Shoemaker: It's funny. The person who comes to mind who is like, I want to say, I hope you're paying attention to how this played out, Kanye. Except Kanye has now went to this whole other place because like the Kanye equivalent would Hogan would be. Not only did he not give a good apology, although you can make the case. Let's not get into that part. but to be like nah in fact I'm I'm actually I I consider myself a slave owner that's who I am now you know what I mean so so Kanye may and by the way if I'm being honest though even if and I've said this here before if Kanye did the right atoning you know how much people like me wish we didn't have to think about that we want to just enjoy I want to listen to my beautiful dark twisted fantasy and not think about Hitler the same way SGG wants to watch WrestleMania three and not think about racism.

1:28:25David Shoemaker: We don't want that. No one asks for it, you know? And, and just to, just to, you know, cause I know it feels like we're talking out of our ass here. Just like, Oh yeah. Apologize and everything's going to be all good. Eddie Murphy, right? In the eighties, he had that those hit iconic comedy specials, Ron Delirious, homophobic slurs all over those specials. And then in the early 90s, he apologized. Every time it comes up, he apologizes. He distanced himself from it. And then now he gets to be Shrek from Donkey. He gets to bring back the iconic Akeem character from Coming to America. He gets to do all these movies and he gets to still be a beloved comedy icon because he realized that was wrong.

1:29:15that's not who I am I'm stepping away from that and in the chorus of legendary comedians who say oh I wish you could do this and you can't say that because it's woke he's one of the few that's like no just elevate your funny right and I should have

1:29:30David Shoemaker: and hey my stuff was not that stuff was not cool it's a really good and interesting comp listen at the same time everyone is everyone should handle this the way that they're comfortable I'm sad about the way things went at the end I also have great enjoyment in what he did give And I also, you know, I do believe people are complicated And I believe when all of us go to our next place As cheesy as this is Short of you, you know Short of, there's very little that I would say Prohibits you from this It's not my place to judge someone except to say that people make bad choices, people do disappointing things, and people also maybe do great things in their life as well.

1:30:19David Shoemaker: You know what I mean? And there are horrible people out there who had a moment where they were just, yo, in that moment, they looked out for this person, they were the best ever. And in every other moment and dealing that they had, they were absolutely horrible. Just like you shouldn't laud that person as being great because of that moment, I don't believe in burying someone because they had terrible moments also. I look at the full picture. We analyze who they are. I talk about the bad things and how they were bad. And I talk about the great things and how they were great. So the legacy of Terry Bollea is incredibly complicated.

1:30:55David Shoemaker: To me, the legacy of Hulk Hogan, the professional wrestler, is that of the most iconic superstar that the business has ever seen. and we'll be talking about the things that happened in the ring for a very long time as well. So when we come back, I do want to talk a little bit more about the modern era of Hogan because I had a few things that I really loved in the post-WCW run that if you were to go back and watch now, you would, I think, be surprised. Especially someone like Dip who was kind of out at that time, you might be surprised at some of the things that happened. It's SGG. It's Rosenberg.

1:31:30David Shoemaker: It is cheap heat live here on pro wrestling nation 24 seven.

1:31:37The whole world is a stage now. Man, we look good up there. We're styling, man. We don't have to sneak around anymore. We don't have to hide in the shadows. The NWO way to go guys. We are the champions of the world. We've got the NWO belt. Ha, ha, ha. We left the giant land, and now the whole WCW is going to fall on our feet. We hit a home run after I beat that big, nasty giant to the WCW belt and turned it into our belt, you know, the NWO belt. He was crying. And then a couple days later, I beat the so-called dirtiest player in the game. He was crying too. The WCW, the world crybaby wrestlers, doesn't work anymore.

1:32:38In war games with the WCW's finest. The so-called establishment of the WCW. In the cage with us, brother. Sting will be stung Woo! All my little stingers Just doesn't work anymore Luger will be hung Flair won't even be there Woo! In styling and profiling You shouldn't brag about that And Arn won't be Arn anymore, brother Because the NWO Will take care of all the NWO business On that day is you gotta change with the times, man. But when we get you in the cage, brothers, we're gonna bring you up to speed just like my two friends brought me up to speed. I know what works now. You gotta take what you want.

1:33:33You gotta bond together for business reasons only. Sting, Ugar, Iron, and Flair. The way you guys bonded, the way you guys made a deal, It was touching. It made me cry a little bit. But it was real. Real weak. I mean, to see you guys out there appeasing each other, talking about what you'd been through together, about the old days in the WCW. Well, you know what? Times have changed. What you gonna do in war games when the NWO destroys? anything less would be civilized. As we wrap up here on Pro Wrestling Nation 24-7,

1:34:29David Shoemaker: Cheap Heat Live, Peter Rosenberg, Stat Guy Gray, and last segment, we got into some of the heavier stuff that I think we needed to get to about how complex Terry Bollea the man was. But also, you know, on a day like today, I think it's a very good time to talk about the wrestler Hulk Hogan, obviously, and the things that the man did in the ring. And some of the things he did in the ring, SUG, there are a lot of people who really never saw anything after, you know, the NWO. I'm sure there are a lot of people who really missed out on when he came back to WWE. And I mentioned some of the things earlier.

1:35:14David Shoemaker: I forgot to mention Brock Lesnar, Triple H, mentioned Randy. The Shawn Michaels thing was a lot of fun as well. We finally got the Hogan Shawn thing. Icon versus Icon with The Rock. um what was your favorite story of the post wcw hogan in wwe the story even though you mentioned it right randy orton even though i feel like the legend killer didn't get his due on that one um the hogan randy orton story but you know because he got got, I'm going to have to give it to Brock. Because I just think of that moment of Brock wiping the blood off on his chest. And it's like Hulkamania was dead in that moment.

1:36:13And then Brock just forever had been the boogeyman to Hogan. I think about his birthday celebration that they had on Raw. And it was all sweet until Brock showed up. And then it got real quiet in that ring. It got real spooky. It got real spooky for Hogan.

1:36:34David Shoemaker: Man, you go back and look at the Wikipedia page for Hogan. And man, his career just goes on and on and on. Of course, there's the rock thing very early on, which they got to right away. And it's almost like they move quickly, SGG. Like, if we don't get to this rock thing, are we ever going to get it? they probably weren't well but that was because of the rock you know Hogan turned out would be around is it the rock is gone by that off that summer very shortly thereafter because that's that's 18 that they do mania and then rock comes back for 19 but rock comes back for 19 he comes back in the tag match the rock and sock match for 20 but he's done.

1:37:27David Shoemaker: Yeah, like we're at the end of the line there. We also didn't mention Hogan feuded with Kurt Angle.

1:37:40David Shoemaker: We didn't mention Undertaker, which has, of course, some of the most hilarious, terrible moments of all time with Hogan not being able to ride the motorcycle. And then getting dragged by the bike? We, SGG, we didn't mention Vince McMahon.

1:38:02He really, he really did a lot. I forgot about that.

1:38:09Like, I forgot about that. Him and Vince went to Mania, if I'm not mistaken.

1:38:13David Shoemaker: Damn sure they did. Him and Vince had a bloody knockdown drag out at WrestleMania. and then of course he has the TNA run now did you realize that in October 2003 Hogan went to NJPW and I feel like I did know that and had a match with Masahiro Chono at Ultimate Crush 2 in the Tokyo Dome I don't know who he fought but I feel like he went to Japan a couple of times. I think him and Flair did something in Japan again after Flair retired. Then he was going to go to TNA originally. He didn't. He goes back to WWE for that run 05 to 07, which is when you get the Randy. And just some really obvious fun Hogan moments like when Eugene is getting bullied by Muhammad Hassan and Daivari and Hogan comes out.

1:39:15David Shoemaker: The Randy story, which is based around Brooke Hogan because that's when the TV show is launching as well. So a lot of fun stuff there. Him and Carlito. A lot of fun stuff. And then, of course, he ends up going to TNA in earnest in 2009. And that was by far up until right now. Love it or hate it. Up until right now, SGG, that was the biggest TNA moment there was. When they went for the Monday Night War again. And listen, I have to thank Hogan for this. When he left the WWE in the early 90s, Vince, everybody saw the writing on the wall, right? The guy up next was Bret. And so when he decided that he was going to take TNA and put them on Monday nights, shout out to Vince for being like, we need Brett again.

1:40:19Because if they don't go to Monday nights, I don't know that we get Brett on, I think it was what, January 4th, 2010, returning to WWE and just mending that relationship. Because that's what people forget. Bret Hart came back because they needed Raw to be must-see. And they went, all right, it's time to break glass in case of emergency and call out the hitman because TNA is going to be on Monday next week.

1:40:48David Shoemaker: That is a great point I did not even think about. Oh, man. And to think about the way it all ended on Netflix, that was just a crazy, like, SUG at no point did I think that's going to be the last time we see Hulk Hogan. I didn't either because he had beer to sell. Let's be real. I thought he was going to be back. Yeah, and like at some point it would be addressed and be like, well, hey, we got to come up with a different way to do things because obviously we don't want that to be the way things go. So unfortunately, we're never going to know, you know, what that would look like. And as much as the guy had a ton of mileage on his body.

1:41:36David Shoemaker: And man, you really think about the irony. For so long, people would talk trash about the leg drop. All he has is a leg drop SGG the leg drop Did so much damage to his body You can probably Draw a direct link Between the leg drop and his passing Yeah like I mean you talked about The hang time he got when we were discussing it With Anggold And he was just compressing his spine Every time he Came down from that height Right like I'm at the age where if I don't count all the steps and I don't realize that there's an extra step at the bottom that six inch drop just rattles through me you're talking about five six feet of that like the it multiplies by the distance that is what shoots through every time he hits landing on your lower back it's It's listen, guys, as we close out here, we appreciate everyone joining.

1:42:44David Shoemaker: Make sure you go subscribe to the podcast, GP, wherever you find podcasts. If you want to hear our Patreon episode, we did a great episode that will live on Patreon only. We did that as well. Patreon dot com slash stay mage. But stay tuned. Coach is going to keep this thing going next. And all weekend there will be conversations and people talking about the incredible career. and complex legacy of Hulk Hogan. Thank you guys so much for joining us. Next week, a special pre-Summer Slam show. We'll all be together in New Jersey with some great guests. We'll see you there. Have a great weekend on SGG Stay Mage.