The Tiers of Maj

0:03Peter Rosenberg! Shout out to that guy, you guys.

0:10The Majestick. Oh my goodness. It's professional wrestling. The Majestick. 24 seconds. A thousand percent. The firm. M-Mage. Stay mage and enjoy your song. M-M-M-M-M-M-M-Mage. également.

0:58Sweet, sweet Peter Rosenberg. Shout out to that guy, Greg. I like delicious chicken. It was Rapport. It was Rapport. It's professional wrestling. SGG showed up in the nick of time, and he showed up wearing a CM Punk shirt. So I know that means he's here to bring the drama. Welcome, welcome to the show, everyone. My name is Peter Rosenberg, your forever 24-7 champion. as i just mentioned uh in los angeles you have 38 to 35 dipperstein and in philadelphia uh clad in a cm punk shirt you have the physically large stack guy greg hey hey guys how you doing how are you i'm doing great i'm doing great i i hope it's not too much drama but it feels like this shirt might compel me and dip looks so intense and and i don't know what dip is trying to get into right now.

1:53I know he won't talk about some things. I'm not going to spoil anything. I'm going to let him do it for himself, but I feel like this might be a Greg Dip fight episode like he's been waiting for. Well, Dip is also very... You're confused right now, Dip, because I just sent you a link to go somewhere. You went to the place, you made it there, and then you disappeared immediately and you're gone. So there's a lot happening for you technologically that's hard. Well, I was hearing myself... I was hearing everything twice and it was very distracting and I couldn't figure out why. So sorry. Can't wait to the last minute.

2:23And also can't work with someone who's 117 years old and can't figure it. I'd have to send a person to TI-82 if we hope to make anything happen. Technologically. A TI-83 is where my where I started. A TI-83 and a beautiful calculator at that. One of the great calculators of all time. But welcome to the show, guys. There is a lot that's been happening this week in the world of professional wrestling. and we haven't spoken that much in our group chat about what many think is the big story of the week. I don't think we'll be spending a ton of the show on it at this point because it's been done a lot over the course of the week here on the station and that is the carrying cross of it all.

3:07Carrying cross no longer in WWE. We I have to admit this has surprised me and sort of evolved in ways that I didn't expect. Carrying cross had a lot of momentum. As we knew, there was a certain segment of the fan base that was super, super into carrying cross. Anyways, here is carrying. He was on the aerial how one he showed the other day. And here is carrying saying that he is not working right now. This, that the whole conversation was a real thing. he's not in character are you working us right now no no i'm not answering questions today as a character this is legit yes this is this is kevin yep okay um am i first of all i'm deciding whether i'm bothered that ariel asked in an interview are you working right now i don't i think that may bother me it's like i know ariel ariel's not working for wwe so like it's not his obligation you know what i'm saying though dip it does like hurt my soul a little bit to ask are you working i i don't like he did preface it a lot by like it was it pained him to ask but i gotta be honest he set that up okay good i have never heard anyone ask that question that is like the next level of of unreal it's like that's like that's like the next level of now when people who are not involved in the business are asking people if if if you're working now it's like where does it end where do we go wait so sgg where do we go from here how much did he preface it sgg before asking it was a lot he mentioned that he's been doing pro wrestling interviews a long time that his first the first time he interviewed a wrestler went back before he even got to syracuse and he's done a ton of interviews he said to my knowledge i've never asked this question i've never even used this word in an interview with a pro wrestler that's a good setup all right thank you for a lot of clarity he did set it up right he said in the seth rollins thing i have to ask because fans it's on everybody's mind and then he went he went for it now listen the beauty of professional wrestling of course though is that the answer to that question means absolutely nothing it that's the best that's the best part of it i mean we live in a wrestling world now that is so meta that if the person responds of course i'm no i'm not working right now this is all a shoot that's the best kind of working here's the deal here's i'm gonna say i don't want to talk this this subject matter is being beaten to death it is already the carrying crossing i mean it's enough is enough i i i i wish the guy was still around but it's it's a you know if he's not going to be around it's enough speculation already we may see him in three months maybe we don't i have no idea but it's it's it's either there's one thing it's either he's working or he's not working and that's it what else is there to say it's done because i guess now well i do have to admit right go ahead yes last time he was on area hawani show i believe you were in the room they mentioned it So I thought Because I knew that he had been around you I thought it was a work For sure You're talking to Dip, not me I'm talking to you, Dip What do I have to do with this?

6:32I thought it was a work I thought there's no way Dip is not going to get me twice This one is a work

6:41I have nothing to do with it I have no idea I would love to see it be a work Because I have too much respect to ask you about what's going on with you, when I see you in a room with somebody, I'm like, Dip's got another one. No, no, no, no, no. I have nothing to do with this, obviously. I have no idea. I would love it to be a work. It'd be great. I love a work. Who doesn't love a work? Yeah, we all love works. We live for works. We live for works. We love works. We love works. here's the thing though about this particular you know work or non-work as it were the setup for this when you go back a couple of months it certainly appeared like the path it would be on would be something like this because the Karrion Kross character became this very meta complaining about his you know the way the office treats him it was all inside baseball so him leaving would make perfect sense as part of that story.

7:45Many people have pointed out, though, how does that work in the post-R-Truth world where that already happened? To which I would respond. To which I would respond. And I'm saying this with respect to R-Truth. It has nothing to do with him. Who cares? The way that story's been treated, I don't even know that it matters. You know what I mean? Like that moment now has been sort of not something we're talking about very much. Listen, it's not what I believe. It wasn't my choice. I would have liked to have had him jump right into a meaningful story, but that's not what's happening right now. So I think if they'd wanted to do that, you still could do it, and you could do it in a real way.

8:24Like what I would have done if this were a work would be that Karrion Kross becomes Matt Cardona-like except in three months he walks right through the door. but I don't I'm not getting the sense that's what's happening here I'm getting the sense this was the end and then the question for me becomes because let me let me play one more clip so we can give you some clarity here because in case you have not been listening all week uh to the station and you just listen to cheap heat every week maybe you haven't heard this yet um Ariel asked him about the contract and here here's Kerry and explaining the contract and what came in and why he was frustrated.

9:01Truth of the matter is, I mean, you've already stated like, you know, my contract was up last week. I never actually received a contract like an offer until last week. So... Do you remember what day? So your contract expired August 10th, which I do believe was Sunday. Yeah. I think it was Tuesday off the top of my head. Okay. you know i i got the offer uh i wanted to know how they came to the valuation of that offer just wanted you know like some information some metrics some analytics that's supporting to hey this is how we got here when i inquired about that they were unwilling to provide that information and told me i had 24 hours to agree to the offer or they were rescinding it so you know the next day we talk I ask if they have the information they don't and I said I can't make an informed decision without the information and I'd like to keep the dialogue open taking that all at face value it's obviously an interesting situation I'm not going to get into the business because you guys know I'm a hack company shill but more specifically and honestly I work for WWE so I'm not going to get into grading the way they're negotiating with people if that's true.

10:20But what I will say is this. The 24-hour window thing would be interesting. I don't know that I recall hearing about anything like that. And number two, guys, I'd be curious to know what the offer was to which Carrion said, how did you come to that? Because there's one version of it in which Carrion is like, yeah, dude, that's exactly what you do. You tell them, how did they come to that number? And you deserve better. And then there's a flip side to that coin that we hear the number. We go, why didn't you just take that? You know what I mean? So because we don't know what the number is, it's honestly a sort of silly thing to analyze.

11:00We're missing the biggest piece of the puzzle. Everyone's analyzing the decision and what he's going to do next. But the fact is, even if we take it all at face value, guys, we have no idea what his offer was. Listen, Karrion Kross is a guy with a lot of potential that most of us feel has not yet been fulfilled. At the same time, just being fully honest, he also is not R-Truth, where when he disappeared, the crowd was going insane each night until he showed up again. That hasn't happened either. So it's a situation that has some room for interpretation. Dip, go ahead. Here's my take on this. We're spending too much time on it.

11:36That's my take. I understand. I know. We're giving it 11 minutes out of two hours. It's been the most talked about thing in wrestling the whole week, Dip. I'm just saying how I feel. He does it. It doesn't sort of 11 minutes out of two hours. I think it's an interesting. I mean, I think it's I think it's the biggest story in wrestling this week. And I understand. I agree. I would agree with that. Dip. Listen, we love that you are the listener. You are not everyone listening to our show right now has done nothing but listen to pro wrestling nation every moment. They've been in the car all week.

12:11By the way, then they're crazy. That's all they should be listening to. It's one of the greatest channels in the history of radio. I understand. But could you be influenced? Could you be influenced by the fact that every moment you've sat in your car, you've listened to this topic talked about? That's all I'm doing. You know, I spent a lot of time. He's heard. Dip has heard every variation of hosts on this channel discussing this subject. I have. I have. I have. Sam Roberts. I get carrying cross. I could hear his name just, his head swirling in my head. The last professional broadcaster, Sam Roberts, has this to say on Karrion Kross.

12:50Feelings, people, feelings. All right, no, but I do want to move on because I don't think it's the be-all, end-all this week. There is a lot of other stuff going on in the world of pro wrestling. By the way, we're going to open the phones on this Friday, 877-344-4893. three. There's also a Naomi situation to discuss, which again, we don't have lots of information, but we know she was supposed to have a match against EOS Sky that she didn't have, and what does that mean for her in the future? We want to talk about what's next for Bayley after her very interesting promo on Raw this past week. We also have to get to the John Cena of it all.

13:31We haven't even talked about this yet. John Cena and Logan Paul. That's what we're headed for next. Not Brock Lesnar. Now there's speculation about an unknown PLE that's going to pop up in September, but that has not yet been confirmed. And then the main thing I think we want to get into, because this isn't a show that's driven by the headlines, we write the headlines, all right? We want to get into our own conversation that comes up quite a bit, but we haven't done a lot of it yet on the airwaves here on Pro Wrestling Nation, which is SGG and others who have the assertion that Roman Reigns is the actual goat.

14:11The conversation about people like that versus sane people like myself and Dipperstein who don't think that's the case, and then where the actual truth falls between all of us. So we want to get into some of that as well and just have some fun on that subject as well. and looking back at, in addition to John Cena's match with Logan Paul coming up, taking a look back, the heel turn is officially over. We have 11 dates left. I think it's a good time, guys, for us on this Friday to kind of analyze what's been happening with the Cena of it all. So Cena, we find out now, Cena's going to go to Paris and take on Logan Paul.

14:49We obviously expected, I think, to get right to something with Brock Lesnar. That has not happened. So two things. Go ahead, Dip. I see you chomping at the bit. Go ahead. Do you know who I think could show up at Clash in Paris and we should talk about it for like an hour? Karrion Kross. What do you think?

15:09Can you imagine?

15:13Karrion, tell me right now. Tell me. Are you working and will you be working in Paris? So we get Cena and Logan, which is interesting, particularly considering they were on the same tag team a few months ago but now since john has changed his mind and he's a good guy they will be up against each other in in paris um first off sgg do you think we're getting this rumored about september event in which we would then get cena and brock is that what you think's gonna happen here i think so i think so honestly because the reason that that rumor popped up was because I believe AEW has a show on that day.

15:57And lately, you know, WWE has seemed to be into the idea of a competition and giving wrestling fans an alternative or counter-programming or however you want to think about it. And so I think, yeah, I think they're going to do it. I think that they're going to look on the calendar, see a big show for AEW and say there's no reason for us to lay out here why don't we also have a big show on this date is that what you think tip is that you think we're gonna get some random thing I by the way I just want to let you know I don't give up a lot of information about what I hear working there I have not been told anything about that I have a work date September 20th or whatever.

16:44So as far as I know, whatever, I don't know about it. I don't know. I mean, I look, I, I would have liked to have seen Brock Lesnar show up on SmackDown on Friday to confront John Cena. I, I, you know how much I like Logan Paul. I'm very into Logan Paul. I think he's a great wrestler. I'm all about him. Yes. But I don't know, man. I don't know this with the, when, when Cena and R-Truth, that little backstage thing, and then he turned the tables or whatever, it was good writing and it was cute, whatever. But I, I like now that we're just pulling the curtain back, on everything i gotta hear what the explanation was for just completely like you know flipping like just completely flipping his character i need to like give me the explanation what happened what was the choice who made the choice we got it no we didn't i think we got it he said he these people aren't showing up i'm left holding the bag the fans aren't enjoying it because it's subpar and i mean look out of k fit when did he say that i'm sorry that i missed the he said that a promo a few weeks ago.

17:41I know. He said that in kayfabe. What part of that is not accurate, though? I don't know. Barack and Travis Scott have not shown up. They haven't been. Hold on. I think we're misspeaking. We're misunderstanding each other. Dip. He did give a kayfabe reason that SGG is saying is hinting at the shoot reason. Are you saying you want a reason on TV that makes more sense? like you want to know what the character or what are you saying of course i want okay i'm gonna tell you i want both i want a kayfabe reason that makes sense and i want an explanation as to why they did this in in real life i want both i'd like to have both i can separate it at this point in my fandom i can separate it in my head and i'm fine with it but i need an explanation on both because it's very confusing to me.

18:37Fair. That part's fair. I want this. Look, there's 11 dates left. I'm not saying that those 11 dates are not going to be amazing. You know, maybe he puts on, he's been putting on, I'll tell you this, the match at SummerSlam was one of the best matches he's ever done in his life. I agree. I was there. I was watching it intently. It was, my heart was pounding out of my chest. It was the best in-ring work of maybe of his career.

19:07And, you know, story-wise, though, obviously there's something to be desired. And I'm not saying they can't make something compelling happen in these last 11 appearances, but it really begs the question not to jump too far in the future. Who is going to be this final competitor in December? You know you're going to get Brock. You know you're going to get Logan Paul. who i'm already looking past that at this point because i know like you know december is five minutes away you guys all right sg what do you think for you it's what for me that final opponent he has two options and it's either he has his eye towards the future and it's him and carmelo hayes and they build to something big for carmelo hayes or he takes his eye towards the past and it's him and the rock and we get something that ties the get together everything that's happened this year but I'm not holding my breath for The Rock, quite honestly.

20:03I feel like - I'm not holding my breath for Carpello Hayes. Not just with John Cena, but just with, for the past few years, people have gotten their hopes up about The Rock is going to show up and do this. And he wasn't at Dallas. He wasn't at Hollywood. He bailed on this year. He showed up for 40, but that doesn't negate all the other stuff. And I'm good if we never see The Rock again because the final draw comes up he gets us hype and we fantasy book and we say this is this means something big and then it falls flat you know what I'll tell you who it should be you want to take a guess of who I think it should be can I take a guess I'm going to tell you go ahead it's the only thing it's the only way to go it's the only way to go by the way please I hope obviously I'm joking.

20:59I want people to critique me the way dip just critiqued John Cena. I have never seen someone heap that much praise on something before ultimately saying they're immensely disappointed. That was, that was a beautiful, I mean, it was true. It was true, but you just, you call it, you painted it very nicely. You love the SummerSlam match. Everybody did, but there's no getting around this. Like for people who have always dreamed about him turning heel, you have this heel turn that's epically shocking. Now, there are some people, I know people, who it was ruined for by the presence of Travis Scott. That alone was like, what are we doing?

21:45I don't understand. I didn't feel that way. At first, I felt that way. And then when I went back and watched it again, I went, as silly as the Travis Scott thing kind of is, it works. Like, it worked for that. It was so heelish to me that it worked. And let's just be honest. The entire world was talking about it. It was the most culturally relevant in-ring wrestling moment in so long. so to your point dip and sgg to then follow that up with we're gonna do this thing i'm ruining wrestling i'm having clunky matches i'm cheating i'm finding a way and then in the end yeah well they they didn't want to show up anymore and it was bad for what am i even doing so that's not me change the tron back come that can't be yeah it's like i need an explanation for that can i say something about that too yes that was almost disrespectful to the fans and the ww universe that john cena does his heel turn right way back i think it was in february he beat coley he beat cody bloody with his dead father's rolex yep and then the turn back with cody standing two feet in front of him is just a promo where he just like undoes everything like it wasn't just that he punched cody in the face with the rolex took the title from a mat mania with the low blow changed his finishing move to a title shot to the head was ripping apart audiences including this kid that was front row full kit and john cena gear and then he takes it all back with a promo like we don't nah that you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna say it right now make that a promo Kelly that is the SGG point of the week you that is such a great under point that has not been made yet the the heel turn was so brutal and old school so brutal your your number one baby face bloodied with his dad's watch and then the turn back is just I changed my mind and Cody's okay with it they shook hands he's standing in front of him and like it should have been a double turn like people said but we get it like okay sure cena's gonna do his best work because he does it as a baby face but the way he got back was horrible it was not fitting of the turn itself i i yeah it's it's it's a fat it's it's a fascinating fascinating moment in time but guess what there's still time left 11 dates as you mentioned taking uh john out now do we know i think it's going to end for John at Saturday night's main event is that now official yeah I hope they swerve us with that too but that's the rumor it's announced it was announced that Jace I mean I think that's I would love a swerve there too by the way can we get one can we get a I don't know maybe that's not the last appearance or maybe like something happens during that appearance that like changes things you know what I mean I don't know for the record this conversation I love the man.

24:58John Cena is a wonderful man. He's been, he is a pleasure to have in the business. A credit to the industry. But this is ultimately why when Dip puts in Mount Rushmore, I push back. Because here we are at the very end of his career. The very end of his career. And we're still going, oh, if they just do this one thing just just do this maybe that's not it maybe maybe maybe it's just it's there's so many maybes and i that's why the the heel the turn back even though people like sam who are very smart and can hear things in a way that the average wrestling fan doesn't hear and you can listen to a sam or and and a few others pontificate in a way where you go wow you know what cena really did say a lot there wow but the fact of the matter is when you watch it live, I don't want to have to get a translation of every promo.

26:02I want to feel what he's saying. Why couldn't, if it's really about The Rock, if he's really angry about The Rock, I just wish John could have called it out in the ring. Why not? Are they really not going to be able to mend it? These guys are all pro wrestlers, man. If he had called out Travis by name and The Rock, all those things, it would have been such a big deal and so awesome and guess what it's all business i know it's all gonna turn into money who cares i don't know this we should be talking about cena at this at this moment with 10 day 11 dates left on his thing as like he is in this crazy story right now for like control of the company or like it should be on that level it should be like he's you know if cena loses his last match this one takes over the cup like we should this should be old school attitude era like high level company things you know like big stuff it should be a remember we always talked about years ago one of the like the first points we ever like bonded over with wrestling is like we missed the a plus storyline you could have people wrestling for the title but then there's always that one storyline above it that really makes you tune in every week it was like you know No, no.

27:17That's what the Vince stories always were. You always had McMahon stories. Right. I think that's what the set story is right now. McMahon, Helmsley era, like control of the company, like they come out. But that's what the final boss was. We had it. It was right here. Right. You know what the problem is, too? That's what we should be talking about right now. That's where Cena should be. This Cena story has become Shane McMahon's lockbox. Remember that? Dallas Mania, Vince and Shane, and Shane has had some information locked away in a safe, and he was going to reveal it. So Vince called out The Undertaker, and we were like, oh, what's in the box?

27:59And then The Undertaker wins, and we never hear about what's in the safe again. that's i feel like that's going to be the legacy of cena's heel turn this big thing that fans got teased with and then when they ultimately got down to it it was just like came and went there there should be some big secret revealed that he was always playing for this like i don't know like i need some i know it was there but dip it was the crazy part and this again this is the part where it may not be on cena maybe this is more about the rock that's what we were on pace for we had John Cena with the final boss the rock up against the huge baby face we had the a a plus story it was all there and for what reasons we don't know about it went away and now we have John Cena don't get me wrong him and Logan will have great promos and have a great match in Paris I will be there with bells on I can't wait for it but in terms of it being an a a plus storyline We've sort of been robbed of that, and we don't really know why that is.

29:04And I do want to say that in being critical, it's hard because I think everyone loves John and knows he's such a credit to the business. And the hard part about tearing down stories sometimes is that it feels like you're tearing down the person. And sometimes it's really not about the performer or the person. But what we do, we are wrestling nerds. We analyze these stories, and we talk about whether we like them or not. you know that I feel like the old head putting someone over is like not a thing. I don't personally feel like it's really an effective thing. I'd rather see John Cena win than lose.

29:39Come on. It doesn't matter to me if Buh-Buh-Buh gets the win over John Cena. Who cares? I want to see John Cena. Just the fact that he or she or whatever is in the ring with the John Cena type person matters. John Cena should win his last match. Yes. Disagree. we love John Cena. We love wrestling. We think he's great. We think it's great. We appreciate his work. And at his last match, he is going to get the applause. He's going to get his flowers. They're going to build a whole show around him. Probably he's going to feel the love. And then he needs to lose because on Monday night or Friday night or at the next PLE, I am going to be there and he will not and somebody else is going to be there and he will not and that story is going to need to continue for whoever his opponent is and they need to be able to say I beat John Cena to carry it forward for them because if he wins in his last match and we know it's his last match it's not just him that it's not just his career that dies that night right it's his opponent too because they couldn't beat John Cena and they have no way of redeeming that because he's gone i'm split between you guys like i disagree fundamentally with dip that putting someone over is not a thing no i think it very much could be a thing you know like to the point sug i think we we originally had talked about carmelo being cena's last opponent a long time ago because we know how much carmelo loves cena the the boston in connection, we thought that would be an awesome thing.

31:22It doesn't feel like, based on where things are right now, that's in the cards. But, Dip, you're telling me you don't think it would be meaningful if Carmelo Hayes got a shot at John Cena in his last match and somehow shocked the world and beat John Cena? You don't now be meaningful for Carmelo Hayes as opposed to doing it and just losing? I don't. I got to be honest. I think him having a great match with John Cena And then losing would be just as good as if he won. You know, because you like what's, you know, by the way, this is never happening. By the way, I love Carmelo Hayes. Totally believe in the guy.

31:59I think he's a star in every capacity. I just don't. I don't. I don't even. It's never. Here's what I think about Dips idea of the winning. I definitely feel strongly about Cena winning if it's against someone who's not a youngster. Like if he's up against Randy, if he's up against. No, no. I'm agreeing with you. If he's up against Randy or The Rock, John should win his last match. There's no reason to have him face another opponent from his past and have John not win. I see some value to him losing if it's someone on the younger side. But I just think it's not every situation here is the same.

32:36Each situation is specific and different. I think there can be upside to someone losing in that spot. I think there can be upside to them winning. Now, here's what John has left. A week from tonight, he's in Dublin for SmackDown. The next week, he is in Lyon, France for SmackDown. Then he's at Clash in Paris. September 5th, SmackDown in Chicago. Here's a fun one, guys. September 15th in Lowell, Massachusetts. That is Sina country. That would be the perfect place for a Sina-Carmelo just raw match. that would be the more likely thing I think final match that ship has sailed but give us the ball damn well guess what they would both have to be switching brands for that I was about to say but neither is John Cena so does it really matter but it's John Cena he can go where he wants I think he can make a call for that and then you have then you have Perth October 11th so there's a big gap there guys September 15th to October 11th then you have Cena in Perth.

33:43Then another big gap as of right now, Cena at Survivor Series. And then December, the retirement match. Was that 11 dates, though? Because he did say 11 dates. Yeah, it's 11 dates. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. No, that's eight of them. So you're right. There'll be a couple more filled in there. Mr. Cena appearances. I said during SummerSlam week, I don't know, I was arguing with somebody about who Cena should face last. I think if The Rock is not going to be involved in Cena's final situation, it could be the only thing that makes that could make a final match feel really big is if it's John Cena versus Cody Rhodes versus Roman Reigns in a triple threat.

34:31That to me is like a big that feels like a big match. You know, it's I know it sounds so obvious, but it's like. It's like, yeah, it's who else. What else is there to do? Maybe that this face turn was a work and he's going to go back to heel and then he's going to face baby face Cody Rhodes. Yeah, I just think him and Cody's done. That was the to me. I think we saw the end of him and Cody. That was it. The story has been told. Cody should have been the last match. Okay. You pass the torch to the new John Cena, Cody Rhodes, and that should have been the last. Cody should have lost. No, I'm not saying.

35:06No, not necessarily, but sure. So I will say, why did we have to get back to Cody John at SummerSlam? Why couldn't Cody John have been the final match or near the final match? Because I do think that was the real story to tell. But again, we don't know yet. Hopefully, we'll get more information in Unreal, and we'll get some insight into what happened because it is very strange. Should it be a lumberjack match where all the A-list wrestlers of yesteryear and that are still around and today are just like it's a big lumberjack match between him and somebody else? You got Undertaker out there. You got Triple H.

35:48You got Austin. All these people. It's a big lumberjack match. The Rock won't be there. Get Travis Scott in there. You got Rock versus Cena in a lumberjack match, and all the legends are around the ring. I dip dip literally just wants to throw any sort dip like dips booking SGG is like the worst impulses of Vince McMahon. It's like, well, damn it. We'll just have some big guys out around the ring. I mean, he just wants the biggest names all stacked together, smack them all together. And that's how I would like there to be some sort of story here. I mean, I know. No, of course. That goes without saying him, barbarian, warlord.

36:34I'm going to tell you what would be the incredible fantasy in my mind, the best case scenario if they did something like this. If you had Cena versus Roman Reigns. All right. The way to end the Cena run if this is the final match is to use this as a vehicle to turn Cody Rhodes heel. Okay. He costs Cena the match, and all of a sudden you get the real double turn. And that is like the big meaningful beat that Cena goes out on. That could make sense with what SGG said earlier. From the standpoint of Cody accepting John becoming a good guy again, it's like, no, he didn't. He didn't accept it. He did the right thing in the moment.

37:21He had the match. He won the title, but he never forgot. and in the end, Cody screws John, it would be fun. It would be great. And then you take it a step even further. Yes. If you want to take it a step even further, if we really want to talk about The Rock, maybe then he sells his soul. And that is like the ultimate selling of his soul. I mean, that would be so awesome. And now we know Dip is truly living in fantasy land. Yeah. I know. Cody Rhodes joins the bloodline that is now again taken over by heel Roman Reigns and heel rock. And it's like he sells his soul to the bloodline, to the family.

38:06And then we're back, baby. OK, I love it. I love it. I love it. Anyway, it would be a great it'd be a great vehicle to turn Cody Rhodes heel. That's that would be great if he screws Cena in Cena's last moment. He becomes the ultimate heel. But the reason, Dip, that what you're saying is absolutely laughable, they just had the moment. It was sitting at SummerSlam. They didn't do it. So they don't want to do it. That was it. It would have been the easiest thing in the world is that over the course of that match, and this is why I think a lot of people are frustrated with the Cena promo. It was unnecessary.

38:42He could have turned Babyface naturally at the match, and no one would have complained. and then SGG as Cena naturally over the course of the match becomes it's Rock Hogan all of a sudden you're rooting for Cena Cena's busted it worked so perfectly Cena had fought such a horrible ground-and-pound boring style as a bad guy that all he had to do in this match even if he'd come out with the black and white Tron, old school, I mean, looking like heel Cena, if as the match went on, you saw him questioning, like, oh, do I want to start doing the fun Cena stuff? And then he started doing it one by one, where by the end he's hitting, you can't see me, the crowd would have organically went insane.

39:34Right. And you could have then, they do the entire thing, Jon plays the new colorful Tron at the end. Cody shakes his hand, blah, blah, blah. Reversal kicks John right in the nuts. Cody's done. Cody kept an incredible run going as being a cheered baby face. In this era, it was an epic run. Like you don't do two years of straight baby face like he did. It was awesome, but it's time. It has nothing to do with him. This is the era we live in. You can only cheer people like a baby face for so long. Let's be honest. A lot of the Cody accoutrement, the blonde hair, the suits, the style. What do you want to talk about?

40:20It leans heel. It's who he is. His nickname is the American Nightmare. I got news for you. That's not a baby face image. Everything about Cody is heel basically, except that he's the son of a son of a plumber and he's a really lovable guy in real life. but everyone's ready to boo the guy you can hear sort of the struggle in the live crowd that they're ready to go my thing is what parts of the story justifies that right like what parts of the stories justify us us turning on cody at this point i don't see it i don't it's not i could see if this happened you know in the run-up to wrestlemania hollywood right where he was undefeated and even after he lost against roman in the run-up to that where he was still at the top still running through guys.

41:09But SGG, that's the frustration. Sorry to cut you off. That's the frustration that they didn't do it at SummerSlam. Because he would have had an impetus to do it because of everything that Cena had done as a bad guy. But if he had done it after Cena had become a good guy and the crowd boos him, now he goes, really? Really? I don't have the right to defend myself? This man's this. This man's that. He would have had the early enough the impetus at least early on to have turned on everyone yeah it was there though right like it was there but they didn't take it they went so now right so now he's just getting booed it's like and now it's almost like we got to create the situation if they want to do it dip and i dip i'm worried i'm a little worried that they're going to do what they did with john which we've seen in the past which is just kind of keep trying and we all remember there were periods guys where they were they were vince would not stop pushing john cena as a baby face and it was clear the crowd was ready to turn it's your your moments of your you're a couple months away from cody rhodes just being booed completely out of the building i i can i can smell it a mile away it's there it's all it's already happening you could tell this guy in canada in ottawa wherever that is by the way i don't know there's no one that knows less about where things are in Canada.

42:28To me, Canada, it's a big, giant place. Somewhere is Vancouver. There's Ottawa, British Columbia, Toronto, Quebec. I have no idea what's left, what's right. I have no clue. North, south. I have no idea. But I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you straight up. We are months away from a Cody Rhodes heel turn in organic heel turn. And that's sad because we could have done something really big to just make it happen right in front of our eyes. And dip rather than get upset with Cody because I saw your look of disgust that he teased it. Cody is trying to get ahead of this changing landscape of how wrestling is done.

43:08And I think that believe me, everyone listening knows our opinions on the press conference that used to exist and that we think it's great that it's gone because did not love the idea of breaking the fourth wall the second a show ends i just don't think that's ideal but i think to say something about that when you finish with thought too by the way sure but i do think cody is trying to navigate how you do interviews how you discuss these things can you tease heel turns it's all things that are very uncomfortable to some of us who are you know who liked the old school style but everyone does have to adapt uh sg what were you gonna say the amount of people who got so up in arms about because you were clipped i don't know if people realize this if you read the dirt sheets you saw that your quote got clipped halfway through and i wouldn't even say halfway through a third of it got clipped and it was like the most inflammatory third that seemed like you were attacking wrestling media nobody bothered to get the full quote look at it in context and see that we weren't even talking about wrestling media.

44:19We were talking about the energy of the crowd and the atmosphere and which situation really was befitting of being called the Thunderdome. Was it being in a room with no audience, with wrestling media interacting with the wrestlers or the wrestlers being interviewed in front of the live audience? And you were talking about your experience being on the job where you have to go in between the press conference and the live crowd and having to manage a crowd's energy going up and down that's the context the amount of people who saw that and said well i was in that room he must be attacking me if what is he saying doesn't apply to you then don't take it to heart how how old are we that somebody needs to say that like if it doesn't apply let it fly if you don't have the context then you don't you shouldn't even be chiming in like what do we even what what happened with wrestling media well how about this week that people got so up in arms about that because well listen because the the headline that was written was uh or that i saw was the line that they used that that i said people pretending to be media right and i certainly see why that would offend people but guys there are some people in there who were writing articles about wrestling doing lots of interviews and listen i have overall thoughts about the idea of wrestling media even being a thing okay with very few exceptions of people who only write about the business of it.

45:44Most of it to me is all entertainment and content creation, including everything I've ever done. So I have mixed feelings about the idea of wrestling media when you're interviewing wrestlers who are in and out of character. But all of us know there were some people in that room who were there trying their best to ask journalistic questions, and there were people who were trying to get their shit in so they could get a viral clip up. That's not media. I'm sorry like I get it has a place good for you get your views but like we all have to pretend like all those things are equal there are definitely people in that room guys Bill Apter has been in that room you know what I mean like there are people who really have done wrestling uh journalism work who are in that room for sure but there are Bill Apter is not offended by what you said right because Bill Apter is not insecure and he knows where he stands in all of this and that really is what it boils down to is you said something that touched on somebody's insecurity and then they tried to make it your problem.

46:43It's not our problem. Go find yourself a friend like SGG. My man will walk through the gates of hell backing up his guy. It's not our problem. I appreciate that. Yeah, I certainly didn't mean to dump on anyone. That was not the goal of what I said last week. But obviously it ruffled some feathers, and I'm sorry that that part happened. Let's get into a little bit about the Roman Reigns conversation and then a broader conversation that we've been wanting to get to here and bring it back in the serious era, which is the Tears of Mage. It is time to revisit. The Tears of Mage was a concept that came about when once trying to do a Mount Rushmore because we were basically frustrated that the Mount Rushmore conversation is so limiting.

47:32You know, you're talking about four people to sum up the entire history of this great art form. Let's be honest. That's like an ESPN talking head debate conversation. It's not a real pro wrestling fans conversation. So we created the Tears of Mage so we could go a level deeper. So instead of just having four people up top, you go, let's talk about who's in Tier 2. Let's talk about who's in Tier 3. and so on and so forth. And that is what we want to start doing here on the show. And one of the reasons it came up is because Stack Guy Greg and others, I know O'Shea Jackson Jr. feels this way and others, want to have Roman Reigns not only on the Tears of Mage but Tier 1.

48:24And I mean, I think SGG would say Seat 1, Tier 1 in the Tears of Mage. Is that an accurate way of describing How you feel, SGG? That is 1000 % Correct, and the last time We did this, our long time listeners, it was about a few Years ago I believe I had Roman in tier 3 Because I let You guys bully me and Influence my decision This was 2022 Okay That's alright, to me it seems Not when we first started doing the tiers that's not the that's not when we started doing that was the but yeah that was the tears so um i think it was yes it was it was it was that was the year we yes really yeah it was before that roman was still the tribal chief um the bloodline was going strong and i let you guys bully me and i had him tier three and i i am here today to say that now and going forward roman reigns is going to be tier one on my tears of mage.

49:33And I really don't care what anybody has to say about it. This is a man who was in the greatest faction of all time. And then follow that up by being in the greatest faction of all time. I'm talking about the shield and the bloodline, multiple WrestleMania main events, hardly ever has a bad match and it's just like he's on a god level run right now and just in terms of entertainment value I mean he had the greatest championship run in the history of wrestling not just in WWE but that single championship run from that 1000 however many days it was he locked it in for me he locked it in number one and that's what I was talking about the things that fans shouldn't even be talking about.

50:29Like, oh, the box office, this many tickets, and this much merch, and this many stadiums. And they made a billion dollars for the first time. Netflix deal. All that is true. I don't care about none of that. I'm talking about what Roman does on the TV screen, and what it makes me feel as a wrestling fan. Tier 1, seat 1, Roman Reigns. the ramblings of a crazy person have come to an end and now i'll pass it to another crazy person dip i was gonna say it's gonna get it could get even crazier you know you know how you know by the way um it's so funny you're talking about the tears of mage we did originally make it march 23rd 2022 i'm looking at it in my notes app that was the first time we really wrote this down and in that tears of mage roman is in tier my the one that i made for me yeah roman is in tier four I will tell you right now, he has definitely moved up since then into tier two.

51:30OK, he is definitely in tier two at this point. There is no question that he is tier two. My tier one, as we all know, if we are just counting it as a Mount Rushmore, as the four people is Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin and John Cena, the four people that have carried the torch for wrestling in all the different eras, modern eras of wrestling. and then it goes from there. I would now put Roman in tier two. I don't think he touches. Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan, we've already established, are tier one there at Mount Rushmore. I agree. Stone Cold Steve Austin and John Cena as the other two.

52:06I'm not sure Roman Reigns has punched through Stone Cold or John Cena. I'm sorry. Well, that's you saying that it has to be four. I don't agree with the metric it has to be four. Okay, that's fine. The point of getting rid of a Mount Rushmore and doing a tier is that you can add. And I do think that the criteria for adding should be very hard. I also agree. I do not have Roman there yet. I think his closeout to his career is important. I think the work that he did during the pandemic and coming out of it was stupendous. I also think his body of work has slowed down tremendously. We have to see what, to me, what does this next run look like?

52:56Dipperstein obviously has not punished John Cena at all for the return, even though you haven't particularly enjoyed the return. We finally got a look at heel John Cena, and guess what? Based on what we've seen, it wasn't a speed that he seemed to have. At least not in the way the other people on that list did. I mean, Flair and Hogan both worked incredibly well as both. Austin is interesting. Like, heel Austin to me is... I wouldn't say Flair worked incredibly well as a babyface. What? I wouldn't say that. Come on. But aging babyface Flair, you don't think it worked really well as a babyface?

53:40Like, I think it worked pretty well. Maybe in his prime, he didn't really work that off. In his prime, he was a horrible babyface. We're arguing Rick Flair right now. Even when he was going against Eric Bischoff and getting fired, and they were playing with his family, and David Flair turned on him, I didn't think that really punched through as elite babyface work. You felt sorry for him. It tugged at the heartstrings, but I don't think Flair ever did elite babyface work. Isn't the irony, S.U.G., not irony, But knowing that Terry Balea was not your favorite human being, the people on that list, Hogan is the best in terms of you can say how great he was at both.

54:19Hogan's number one with a bullet next to Austin, Flair, and Cena. Hogan is the best baby-faced and best heel in terms of his ability to do each really, really well. 100%, for sure. Which is kind of surprising because I just wouldn't have ever guessed, looking at the beginning of Hogan's career, like he did such sort of, you know, there were some silly things he did that I never thought would have worked well as a heel. But you look back at it now and you're like, damn, he just, he did it iconically well. Now, by the way, I'm not saying that that has to be the number one criteria for your tiers of mage.

54:56the way I rank people always was how are they as a heel, how are they as a baby face what kind of people can they work well with can they work with everybody these are the sort of things that I look at and that's why I love Savage so much because to me, Savage incredible baby face, incredible heel put him in with Andre the Giant, put him in with Rick Rude put him in with he could work with anybody and make it look good but but here's the interesting thing about the tiers of mage if you're defining someone as mage does he go in tier one is randy savage who i love as from you know top to bottom would you put him in tier one of wrestling in the annals of time randy savage is tier one he is in he is there with hogan and flair and well this is why the argument's so frustrating because are we talking about in terms of in terms of how long they had the ball to lead the company right we're talking about we're talking in terms of one because there's a generation of people who when you say wrestling to them it's he's one of the images that flashes in the head but i know i know that no nothing just wrestling it's people's here's i judge it like in the annals of time who is the most mage i don't say i love i love mr perfect is in my Mount Rushmore of wrestling.

56:20So you're saying, then we have to revisit this entire thing. Are you saying mage is literally only in terms of how famous they are? How influential. To me it sounds like you're saying how famous they are. Even famous and influential are not the same thing. Important. Still, that's the third different thing. And by the way, how would you then do that if that's the criteria and not have The Rock in your top tier. He's the most famous. He's gigantically important. For the era we live in now, he is gigantic for us getting to here. Ready? Not only that. I have him. I don't know if he even mentioned Bruno.

57:02Bruno, I don't have that at all because I think we cut it off at Bruno. We didn't include Bruno at all. No, we decided to do Modern Era. We decided to not include Bruno. I mean, we love Bruno. Your list has Harley Race in tier five. So Modern Era, I wouldn't say that. Oh, you have it good. I do have Harley Race in Tier 5. But Harley Race wrestled until like 1991. Yeah, no. Harley Race and Dusty are later than Sam Martino, dude. I mean, Sam Martino's problem was my grandfather's wrestling, for sure. Bruno Sam Martino, I think, retired in 85. Yes. I believe. It was in the mid-80s, for sure. Or 86 at the latest.

57:37Bruno Sam Martino retired in 85, and Hogan is wrestling in 85. How does Bruno not make the cut off? SGG, you're being a lawyer. This doesn't matter. Who cares about Bruno Sammartino for Christ's sake? He's the greatest of all time we know. He's a book about Rushmore. This is why I'm bringing up Bruno. He's not in the modern era of wrestling. He's not in the modern era. Bruno is gigantically important because 14 years of WWE is under Bruno. So is George Hackenschmidt. We're not talking about George. We're not talking about 14 years of WWE as Bruno as champion. There's so many other things There are things that you guys can argue about.

58:14Why are we wasting time on Bruno Sammartino? Because Greg is nuts. Because Greg is nuts. We know that Bruno is Bruno. If importance is a real criteria, then we have some people. If you want to revisit changing the entire scope of it, we can. None of us are going to debate how important Bruno is. I don't think any of us disagree. It's just about where the line of delineation is. I just am trying to establish whether or not Dip is talking about how great they are, or are they just famous and were at the front of the company? That's more into my, like how I define mage. I would say, what? What's so funny about that?

58:53What is so, what? It's how influential and important their run as a pro wrestler was. How's that? Okay, but then just get ready to add Roman Reigns. SGG, you should be happy about this because that means a lot of the - He won't be. Well, then he will end up tier one, whether you have him tier two now. But so it makes it to me, it takes away almost even the subjectiveness of it because you're buying into now, who did they tell us was the biggest one? They told us it was John Cena. Now they're telling us it's Roman Reigns. Then we can add Tony to tier one. And that's why I can't get Jimmy with that because importance and influential, it sounds like it nails down the issues, but that is really kind of vague because what people think is important It is different for everybody.

59:41Peter, who is in your, who is your tier one, tiers of page? Today? I don't know. He's. I don't know if I, I don't know if I have my mind. Do you have mine too or no? Say it right now off the top of your head. Well, I can, I can make it up, but I don't want to not reflect. All right. As you have it from the past. All right. This is from back then. What did I say? Your tier one is just three people. Oh, okay. Rock, Austin, and Brett. What? No, that can't be right. I'm looking at it from you. I only have my tiers of mage. This is the overall tiers of mage with everybody's aggregates. Sorry, I don't have yours.

1:00:24Okay. I would think my tier one would have been Hogan, Flair, Austin, Savage, Brett something like that that's what I'm guessing Goldsteins I see Matt man Brian man's I don't have yours you're putting you're putting Brett who is in my tier two and Macho who's in my tier two in tier one with Hogan and Fleur well because again again I wasn't this is where we have to get clarity if we're going to do this moving forward if you mean in terms of fame and mainstream influence, then no. I would remove Bret, certainly. Although, Macho Man, I will say, when it comes to professional wrestling and what the man's name connotes to the average person, take this, Savage is bigger than John Cena and Roman Reigns.

1:01:22How about that? Ooh, yeah, and Snap into a Slim Jim has lasted longer in the mainstream lexicon than anything Cena or Roman has done. So it depends what our, what is our standard? We have to come together on the standards. No, I think it's fun that everyone has their, let me talk for two seconds. I think it is fun that everyone has their own, I think it is fun that everyone has their own criteria. That's what's fun about this. It's however you define mage. I understand that. I understand that. I think yours is, yeah, yours is like, hey mage is what wwe said was supposed to be the biggest thing in any period of time those are the people who are number one i didn't tell me that wwe didn't tell me rick flair is that no yes they absolutely did well they did eventually before we ever before we ever saw rick flair bobby heenan was on camera saying rick flair is the greatest of all time there's a match with bobby heenan and gorilla monsoon are on commentary and gorilla monsoon refers to i forget who it was as the before he came to wwe yes and he is good he didn't says wrong flair this is he in the whole time one instance in commentary this was said and then they give him the championship twice yeah but you're you can't say that wwe didn't put him on a pedestal you're being captain literal man about my assessment it doesn't have to be wwe who told you but someone told you whether it was the nwa and Jim Crockett promotions that told you.

1:02:55But then, by the way, WWE lined up and said, we are on board. Ric Flair is the real world champion. Ric Flair wins the Royal Rumble to win the championship. They were all on board with agreeing. Then he comes back, and he will always be described as the 16th time. He got the greatest send-off. Ric Flair probably got the greatest send-off in wrestling history. We love you guys. Stay made. Join us in the Discord. send your emails of course as well to rosenbergwrestling at gmail.com and then sgg enjoy yourself take it easy fellas