Why Does Hulk Hogan Still Matter? David Shoemaker Explains

0:03Peter Rosenberg: Peter Rosenberg!

0:05David Shoemaker: Shout out, shout out, yeah. The major stick. Oh my goodness. It's professional wrestling. The king of KC. 24 seconds. A thousand percent confirmed. M-mage. Stay mage and enjoy yourself. M-m-m-m-m-m-mage.

0:34David Shoemaker: It's still rooted.

0:54David Shoemaker: It's still rooted. Sweet, sweet Peter Rosenberg. Shout out to that guy, Greg. I like delicious chicken. It was Rappod. It was Rappod. It's professional. Wrestling. Ladies and gentlemen, it is that time. I promised it was happening, and now here we are. The reunion everybody is always waiting for. I mean, it's one of those crossover episodes. episodes it's it's it's like it's like every once in a while you know i work with the great michael k and and and don and dave lagreca's brother don lagreca and every time like we're together and we all come together it's like oh don lagreca and michael k are together the way it's supposed to be i'd like to think in our think in our own little world that's what it's like when myself and my guest right now david shoemaker get together the masked man's book why hulk hogan matters is out right now and if you can't see my copy he has six or seven copies sitting behind him it's in his little nook yeah get that one turned around what are we doing here for god's sake um i am currently uh live from mexico um you are in new jersey um i i just finished the book which is already incredibly telling because shoemaker uh as you know i'm not fantastic at finishing books.

2:18David Shoemaker: As my dad will often point out, the only book he believes I've ever finished was Larry Bird's biography, Drive. A great book, by the way. But I will say this one is a quick and awesome read. Now, I will say my only grievance, and I finished this book. That was the point. Sorry. Important capital. Yeah, I don't finish books, and I already finished this book. It is a great read. You could literally read it on like one long flight. You would be good to go. It is awesome. I do think I could have. Now, obviously, you couldn't have faith that I would have finished the book, but I could have contributed a really good quote to the back of this.

3:02David Shoemaker: Now, I understand why you wouldn't have faith I would finish the book, but I really think. But there's a great one. um uh gewertz wrote insightful thought provoking and tremendously entertaining redefines what a wrestling book can be that's a that's a pretty cool i know everyone's trying to score a cool sounding compliment for the back of the book but from brian gewertz who we all could agree understands this thing as well as any outsider ever heard that's that's a pretty good

3:29Peter Rosenberg: quote absolutely true uh i mean uh you know brian's uh just incredibly smart mind in the pro wrestling world and outside of the pro wrestling world as we all know and um you know in sports but listen sports fandom yes yeah i mean maybe sports too i'm guessing he you know it wasn't the starter from the college team but but uh but yeah i mean listen i mean i'm not trying to like overstate it or whatever. But yeah, I mean, when I'm writing this book, it's like, when you asked about why it was short, I mean, part of it was just working against my own expectations. And I spent a decade thinking like, what's my next book going to be?

4:12Peter Rosenberg: And the answer was never, you know, a short book about Hulk Hogan. But then all of a sudden the opportunity comes up and I'm like, well, are there other short books to write? You know, is like, is it, I mean, you know, I think of those like 33 and a third books. You remember those? It was like little paperbacks about like, Each one was about an album, and it was the great albums. And it was just a long essay. It's shorter than this. But is there room for that sort of writing? I don't know. I hope people still buy books. It's kind of a weird world to be in.

4:40David Shoemaker: Yeah, no, that whole part is tough. And as someone who loves old media, I'm probably not the best person to ask about it, because I'm like, who wouldn't if you're interested? I think the fact that it is small and easy to read, though, in terms of size, does lend itself to being something. And like, I don't know, depending on the success of it, obviously, but like the prospect of it being a series of about other wrestlers who matter is obviously, I think, an interesting one to think about. We can get more into that later, though. So just starting with a couple of the basics of this book, why did you go on the shorter end of things?

5:15David Shoemaker: It's like 160 pages or something like that. Why did you decide to sort of make it a quick read on a subject that obviously there's so much to?

5:25Peter Rosenberg: Well, part of it is I hadn't written a book in so long, and I just kind of wanted to experiment a little bit. But mostly, I think it was a combination of things. You know, I wrote a piece for The Ringer after Hogan died, and that obviously led to this book. I mean, I was I've said it before, but I was struck immediately after writing it that I was this feeling like weird. That's the last time I'm ever going to write about Hulk Hogan, you know, in any kind of real way. And I felt there was this weird, just a bizarre feeling for someone who writes about this stuff. And then the opportunity to write the book came up and I was like, yes, there we go.

6:01Peter Rosenberg: But it's not a biography of him. You know that you've read it. You know, it's just more of a sort of meditation on the big moments in his career and post-career and what they mean to fans like us. And so there was no need for it to be exhaustive, right? I didn't want anyone to get it confused for an exhaustive biography. And also, I mean, the title and a lot and, you know, a chunk of the inspiration came from Pete Hamill's book, Why Sinatra Matters. And that's another short book. It's probably shorter than this one, you know. So it's meant to be something that you can read in a day or two. That's the idea.

6:42David Shoemaker: Yeah, you really did cover the bases so well. I don't know what I would have felt as someone who obviously talked about the subject quite a bit over the years, watched my share of documentaries. I don't know what subject I feel like we were shortchanged on. do you feel like there was anything you would have liked to have gotten a little bit more into but just thought given the style of the book i'm gonna have to pass on this part

7:11Peter Rosenberg: when i first thought about the book there was more post-wrestling there was more weight in the post-wrestling career because i did want it to be i mean i do i didn't want it to be just like a round of applause for hulk ogan folks obviously that's not the way any of us feel about the guy at this point, right? But as I was writing it, I realized that sort of, and maybe it's probably obvious to a lot of fans, but the sort of the turn from like the purely positive reminiscence to the more negative feelings about Hogan actually occurs during his career. Obviously, you know, he wasn't like an outward racist when he was a wrestler or anything, but like by the time he's, all the everything, all of our conversations about Hogan became about like backstage influence and politicking and stuff around his like WCW run.

8:01Peter Rosenberg: And at that point, there were some very high moments that followed that. But the book sort of, you know, takes the turn towards the negative then. And so there was a little I didn't have to like just spin pages and pages like rehashing everything that's happened to him in his posturing career. But no, I mean, I don't know if there's anything I would have put in that isn't in there. I could have written more about some things and I could have probably written less about some things. I had the most fun writing the beginning. I'm trying to piece together his early days of becoming a wrestler.

8:34David Shoemaker: How much new research did you have to do for that?

8:39Peter Rosenberg: I talked to a few people off the record, on background, when I was really trying to pin down an answer. But a lot of the answers are unpinnable. And almost everything I took from existing... Just like Hogan. Yeah. Well, that's the whole thing. Hogan's just a miraculously impressive liar, as is every wrestler, I mean, more or less. But Hogan is just the best of the best. He's, you know, he's on wrestler lying Mount Rushmore, just like wrestling Mount Rushmore or whatever. And he might be the only head on there. It might have to be like the Washington Monument of wrestler lying. But, you know, all the stories, but it's not just him, right?

9:22Peter Rosenberg: I mean, when you have someone that's as important as Hulk Hogan is, everybody that crossed paths with him in the early days has told their version of the story that usually puts themselves at the center. You know, it usually makes themselves into the person who got Hulk Hogan into wrestling. Or, you know, there are several people claiming to be his first opponent and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And Hogan is just the perfect subject because it's all just, it's, I mean, listen, it's pro wrestling is not just larger than life. It's like, it's larger than truth. And Hogan's the best example of that in so many ways.

9:56David Shoemaker: Yeah, I found the beginning of the book really, really fun because you do always hear versions of it. But there were some new wrinkles that I thought you added to it, specifically like some color around who the characters were when he originally first showed up in Florida trying to wrestle. like you hear the story of his leg getting broken but i i do i do think you added you know or whatever version of broken it was but i do think you added some color specifically to that part that kind of was between the idea you know hogan's glorified over the top version of it and then sort of the the newer version which is well hogan's a liar you know it doesn't matter version it sounds like there was a sweet spot right there that was the truth which is that yeah he got sort of broken into the business in a very old school way.

10:53David Shoemaker: Prove yourself that you want to be here and then we'll let you in on the big lie. But that, but that is something that actually happened.

11:00Peter Rosenberg: There is. Yes. I mean, listen, Hogan claimed that hero Matsuda broke his leg. His first day of training, basically everybody else who was in and around it said like, no, he, you know, he twisted his knee. Yeah. He was back a couple of weeks later, like whatever hero Matsuda's wife for whatever it's worth. After he died, said that she believes that she broke Hogan's leg, but I don't know. I mean, who knows um you know the kind of crazy thing about this about Hogan's retelling of the story is that it really doesn't the lie doesn't help that much it's sort of like his insistence that like he didn't know if Andre was gonna let him win it was like it's still a great moment whether you know without this it's sort of an unnecessary lie right um because what is true what is like undeniable is that Hogan got into the business the old-fashioned way you know I mean he was there in the snake pit with Matsuda and Bob Roop and Eddie Graham.

11:52Peter Rosenberg: I mean, I wouldn't wish that sort of training on my worst enemy. The best version of it is a real shitty several months of just masochism.

12:03David Shoemaker: But isn't that the whole thing with Hogan? And that's, I guess, what I really enjoyed the most about the book is sort of trying to figure out why he needed to always add extra sauce when it wasn't needed. And the fact of the matter is we have more people in our lives like that than we probably would like to admit. They may not be doing it on the level of Hulk Hogan, but we're like, hey, dude, the story was good. You didn't need to add the extra part. Now you just sort of veer into, I don't know, it kind of goes perhaps beyond anything related to pro wrestling and just a basic dishonest nature.

12:47David Shoemaker: He's probably no matter what his field would have been, my guess is, and I say this with all due respect, and truly due respect, I think he probably would have been a liar. I just think that's kind of what his

12:59Peter Rosenberg: nature was. I mean, you know, Metallica wanting him to play bass for them is not wrestling related, right? And that's a lie that he that he has told several times. I mean, and the early wrestling ones, it's not just about how he was trained and now what happened in the ring. There's stories about Elvis watching him, you know, wrestle, which wasn't true. And, you know, partying with Belushi wasn't true. And, you know, I mean, there's just, there's just so much, so many things that are unnecessary and you're probably right. But I do think that you can't separate out the wrestling of it all. Totally.

13:28Peter Rosenberg: You're, you're, you're right that he probably would have been a liar or a fabulous or whatever, regardless. But, you know, with the Andre example, I always say that like, I really think that when wrestling sort of came out of the closet, you know, as sports entertainment, however you want to say it. And it's not just the moment that Vince started saying sports entertainment. It's really like the way that the, that, that the culture at large started covering wrestling in the nineties. Like, okay, we all know this is a put on at that point, Hogan and a lot of other wrestlers you see would, would start reading reality back into the facts, right?

14:02Peter Rosenberg: It's like a reading, reading, seriousness back into the reality, right? Like we know now that Andre was not a villain who was trying to kill you. And so in the retelling of the story, you add this extra element of gravity. Well, I didn't know if he was going to let me win. He's this larger than life figure. If he hadn't wanted me to win, I wouldn't have won. All this stuff. And it's a way of sort of like keeping the kayfabe even in a post-kayfabe era. But there's also the thing that you've seen with many other wrestlers, but particularly superstar wrestlers like Hogan and Flair who have lived their whole life in gimmick, basically, where you don't know where to draw the line between reality.

14:44Peter Rosenberg: It's almost like you can imagine him telling these stories like he's cutting a promo, and he's like, well, the crowd popped, so I'm doing a good job, right? And he keeps going, or he tells the story the same way the next time because he got a good reaction. And it's, and, and it does like reality kind of doesn't even matter in some ways.

15:02David Shoemaker: I, I, I, that's a profound way of thinking about it in my opinion, because that whole putting the, the adding sauce being necessary post the breaking of kayfabe. It's, it's not just true to Hogan, right? We've obviously seen it. You mentioned flair, but so many people, cause you're right now they all do interviews. everybody look we're on wwe radio right now i mean this is a whole it is a legitimate industry to talk about what your career was in professional wrestling so you gotta add where can i add the pieces that are real enough that still give me gravitas and make me look that

15:43Peter Rosenberg: much better yeah and we go towards those i mean we are drawn towards the montreal screw job not because bret hart lost the title in an underhanded way but because of the backstage dealings that led up to it right because of like the real world stuff so that's real but Brett's in a weird way Brett is as I mean Brett was raised in the business he's as in some ways as consumed by kayfabe than anybody than Hogan is and he's just he's so interesting in his own way I mean just in the Montreal Screwjob story it's like I'm team Brett everybody's team Brett like we all got it until Brett starts saying like what matters is like he didn't want to drop the belt in front of his people you know like whatever and you're like wait what are you talking about like you don't like you're like everything you're saying i'm on board with except you didn't want to lose in canada because of what it would mean to the canadians or do you or like what it's a show dude like you could i love the belt is not real i don't know what to tell you like i love the man more than anything but that is always the

16:48David Shoemaker: moment where you go wait so are we on your side or not because if you're saying it's literally you shouldn't have lost in front of canadian fans it's like that's done all the time dude that's it that is a regular have the hero take a big l when you think they're gonna win in front of their that's a regular trope of wrestling i mean it's it's a really good point um hogan's initial run with Vince's dad and then subsequently leaving and coming back doesn't always get that much time spent on it you did a really nice job getting into some of the AWA stuff and giving it its due and kind of not the short shrift it usually gets as like just this nothing stepping stone in fact it made me think as I was reading it I'm like man one of the reasons I liked the Netflix series on Hogan in spite of some of its shortcomings.

17:44David Shoemaker: One of the things I really liked about it was that it did spend some time there and show more video of that than I've really seen often. What did you learn in going back and thinking about how important that time was to his development?

18:00Peter Rosenberg: Well, I don't know if learn is the right word, but when you get into these, a lot of the research for these are just rabbit holes. You just start watching and watching and watching and you're and and watching it in sequence and trying to really like relive like trying to put yourself there a little bit how much how much awa stuff of that era is available in sequence um oh god i don't even know percentage wise i just tried to watch like the big matches and the promos around them as best i could a lot of those things are pegged together on youtube

18:28David Shoemaker: videos that i can't you missed you missed the old school days of the network at this point is what

18:31Peter Rosenberg: you missed oh god so much um but yeah i mean actually i got i got a lot of the awa stuff somebody sent me a lot of the awa stuff on a dvd that i finally found a player for like after i was like 90 done um but um but what you really get when you like throw yourself into it is you get a you get a real feeling of the electricity that early Hulkamania era in the AWA was producing. And I don't think, I go into it in the book. I think the whole thing about how Vern should have made him champion is a little bit of a weird inside baseball argument. It's like, are we sure Vern wasn't going to make him champion like a month later?

19:15Peter Rosenberg: Like, you know, there's a lot of, they were clearly telling a story about Hogan being unable to win the championship from Nick Bockwinkle. you know I mean it's like arguing that like Dusty Rhodes should have beat Flair you know eight months into their feud or something you know it's just it doesn't but the story is about the chase for so many people but anyway setting all that aside you feel the crowd just erupting and his biggest match against Bockwinkle that he it was sort of a dusty finish and he ends up like not getting the belt and attacking everybody afterwards and the crowd is going absolutely apeshit that you you know if you watch that match and hogan versus chic his debut in the wwf just a you know short time later if you watch those back to back the crowd reaction is not significantly different like the crowd was absolutely going nuts for him in the awa in a level that like really matched his msg is you know the msg reaction and um yeah and just watching everything even watching the promos you know like in ww in the wwf he was you know he didn't emerge from the back the first time waving the american flag right that sort of the real american wasn't even his theme song initially he had to wait for the u.s express to go a while before he got his hands on it um but like there was a bunch of like jingoism in awa too like it like that stuff predated wwf is wwf run as well it was like all of the pieces were there except the red and the yellow um the entire thing was in place and it's crazy how it just how easily it translates i mean there's there's a you see it over and over again when you like you know relive his relive his story but hogan was just i don't know jerry briscoe has it tells a story about how like the for his first match he walked out in whatever like florida armory they were wrestling and like early on on the card and the crowd just went dead silent.

21:12Like you could hear a pin drop and it was the first time he'd ever been out.

21:16Peter Rosenberg: And they were, and they were like, is this bad? And then they all start cheering, but it was like, he, he was so incredible looking just to see him, the crowd, like they're all their jaws dropped. And then they went nuts. You know, there's just some chemist, some, some it factor or whatever that like he has that, that is inexplicable.

21:39David Shoemaker: it's interesting just that the gap between the end of awa hogan and the beginning of hulkamania it's so it's april to january yeah that sound right like yeah so nine months or whatever it is and also it's funny that that whole argument of that he should have had the title it's like well depending how you want to view things didn't didn't him going to vince immediately after completely justify if why you were Verne Gagne, you wouldn't have wanted to put the title on him?

22:10Peter Rosenberg: Yeah.

22:11David Shoemaker: Yeah, exactly. Well, you're right. I mean, exactly friend of the AWA at that time.

22:15Peter Rosenberg: So it's, you know, you can argue it either way. Sure. And there's a million, I mean, listen, there's all the stories about Verne not wanting to put the belt on somebody who wasn't like a shooter or true. Like that's Verne's, Verne was like an incredibly successful Greco-Roman wrestler. He liked like the legit guys in the ring. and territorial wrestling is just like completely overstuffed with stories about you know the promoters didn't want to either they were carrying the belt and Vern certainly carried it you know past the age that you would have expected him to or putting it on your kid Greg Gagne thankfully didn't get that call but very well could have or letting the champ buy in to the company so they have an ownership stake so they're not going to disappear right Right.

23:03Peter Rosenberg: That's that's that's just a reality of doing business. It's really easy for us to look back to look back now and just imagine that they're all full time employees, you know, like whatever contract employees like WWE wrestlers are. But yeah, I mean, listen, you can look at it any number of ways, but it wasn't like WWE will just ignore Bryan Danielson when he's at his absolute peak until the fans actually start storming the ring. It's a much more fraught situation.

23:40David Shoemaker: So I'm just looking at, are you aware? So Hogan did have it once off TV for six days, which I didn't know. And then gave it right back to Bockwinkle. This is in 82. But do you know who took the title off of Nick Bockwinkle after it wasn't Hogan?

24:01Peter Rosenberg: It wasn't Hennig right away, right? Was there somebody else? No, yeah, there's a couple. Jumbo Saruta. Oh, that's right. AWA brought in some real killers, man. when they were like in an hour of need. Didn't they have Stan Hansen? Who was their last champ? Stan Hansen?

24:20David Shoemaker: So after Hogan didn't get the title, they went Jumbo Saruto won it on a house show in Tokyo, but held it for 81 days and then gave it back to Stan Hansen on a house show in East Rutherford, New Jersey, which I didn't even realize that AWA ran house shows.

24:41Peter Rosenberg: and East Rutherford, that far east?

24:43David Shoemaker: Yeah, I did not realize that would be a thing. Then Bockwinkle gets it back, and then Kurt Henning wins it in May of 87.

24:52Peter Rosenberg: Yeah. And then there's, I mean, that whole, and then all the stuff with Lawler that followed that was just sort of hilarious.

25:01David Shoemaker: Yeah, Lawler then had it, and then he vacated it, and then it ends with Zabisco. Yeah.

25:09Peter Rosenberg: um it's a listen the lineage is amazing and stan hansen was a hilarious misfire for them too as much as i love the guy um but why was it why was it not the fit with stan hansen um i think there were some personality clashes for sure uh just being like tough two tough guys don't necessarily make like minds. But he just didn't get over. I mean, I think it's more of a continuation of the larger issue of, you know, every promoter loses their fastball at some point. And Vern was very attached to a concept of wrestling that was not the direction wrestling was going. So I think with Hogi, you know, I say it in the book.

25:58Peter Rosenberg: one of the things that one of the reasons i think hogan really was really effective is that despite the fact that you and me and every wrestling fan gets the shit from your friends are like you know that stuff's fake don't you like we all kind of knew at a certain age you just realize like it's very clear that it's fake um although i shouldn't say fake that's the word that you know wrestlers will actually

26:22David Shoemaker: get mad about yeah i i i'm not gonna i wouldn't jump in if it was anyone but you i probably would

26:29Peter Rosenberg: have been like well let's not use that word but yes when that is i did a whole pot i did it when i was doing it when i was working on that an old podcast kind of hand in glove with wwe i there was a whole episode about that and i was happy to not use the word fake except i kept wanting to use that phrase you know that stuff's fake don't you and then they're like can you not use fake and i'm no my elementary school bullies use that word like i don't know what to tell you like everybody

26:54David Shoemaker: said that um isn't that interesting though that the same not shockingly i guess the same word that would sort of offend the boys is the same word that offended you as a fan when kids would say

27:05Peter Rosenberg: it to you um but i think that but what but the thing about hogan is looking back it's like he actually took the sting out of that because he was so clearly not legit you know like it was so like it's not like he seemed fake he just seems so much larger than life that it's like like even as a kid you're like yeah dude he man's fake too like what are you trying to tell him like this is obvious you know like right like every comic books are fake i get like this is and that's what hogan

27:30David Shoemaker: is yeah top gun top gun is fake but this is awesome like this is yes exactly schwarzenegger

27:36Peter Rosenberg: movies are like whatever you want to whatever your connection to hogan is yes that's also fake and Hogan just like wore it on his sleeve. You know, he was like deliberately or not, like you can't watch a Hogan match from the 80s and be like, now that's real fighting. You know, there's no, but, and that's part of what makes it work.

27:54David Shoemaker: That's something you left out of the book though. When Hogan choked the dude out on TV. Belzer. Belzer, because I always want to say Stossel, but of course it's not Stossel. That's Dr. Dave, but Hogan, did something similar.

28:13Peter Rosenberg: Which move would you rather receive? There's the open hand slap to the ear from Dr. D, Dave Schultz, David Schultz, or the front sleeper, the dragon sleeper from Hulk Hogan.

28:26David Shoemaker: Hogan has to be the better choice because the Stossel thing was such a problem, as you know, because it actually caused hearing damage. Or that was the case he made important and won.

28:36Peter Rosenberg: That was the gimmick. I'm not sure. That might be like Rick Rude's broken back where he got all that money from the insurance company or whatever.

28:45David Shoemaker: By the way, the irony of that whole thing, if Stossel was in fact working, is just too good to be true. That's a great question. I think I'd rather take Hogan's front sleeper. But yeah, is that something you considered mentioning? Because it is sort of a jarring moment.

29:00Peter Rosenberg: Right. The early WrestleMania era is like all over the place. The early days of Hulkamania. And so what I did with the book, I mean, you can read it rather quickly. And if you're so inclined, you can skip chapter. You can skip around from chapter to chapter. Each chapter is like its own thing. So I wanted to make each chapter be like an essay, like I have a straight through line and I can't just hit every single thing. But the Stossel thing, I mean, sorry, the Richard Belzer thing was interesting because I think that ties back to his early days. It's like it's not like Hogan wasn't trained. it's not like Hiro Matsuda didn't have any interest in teaching him you know how to stretch somebody you know teach him the old trigger holds or whatever like certainly he learned that stuff the wrestlers learned that stuff so frequently so that they could win bar fights you know like it wasn't just for you know get in the ring it's to prove that wrestling was real you had to know how to put somebody down and uh and so Hogan definitely knew how to do that stuff it is interesting though

29:53David Shoemaker: thinking about it in the book you do you sort of quickly in a couple of sentences go from Wrestlemania 1 to 2 to really spend time on 3.

30:03Peter Rosenberg: Yeah.

30:04David Shoemaker: Which I think makes sense if you're talking about his legacy of course.

30:07Peter Rosenberg: Sure sure I mean 2 is one of my favorite Wrestlemanias because it's just so weird. So weird. The weirdest. But there's not a lot to be said there's not some like you know depth to plumb there or I'm sure I could but it's not like 1 or 3.

30:23David Shoemaker: Well, I like that you said the piece, though, about him having his ribs bandaged at two. And that was just a thought I hadn't had about like, you got to find any way to try to make this guy seem mortal. So he took the avalanche. We bandaged his ribs. It looks like he could lose. And of course, he ends up winning. But sorry, continue on.

30:43Peter Rosenberg: And Bundy, who I love, it's funny to think that he wrestled Hogan in the steel cage at two. and on three he was fighting Hillbilly Jim with a bunch of little people. That was a very weird career trajectory for him. But Bundy is one of the few guys that really looked like a physical equal to Hogan. But even then, Hogan was taller than him. So you had to make her this... They booked Hogan like he was Terry Taylor, but he's built like Big John Studd. And so they always had to find a way to make him look human, make him look mortal as they're booking the immortal Hulk Hogan. you know and it was that was always a weird tension but yeah and wrestlemania one also is like to me is always part and parcel with the mtv shows you know the war to sell the score and the brawl to end it all like it's all this sort of like just barrage of cool things the big event which is like mostly lost to history the giant pre-wrestlemania show they ran in canada um they were just like trying to figure it out trying to like and just clawing for this mainstream attention and getting it.

31:47Peter Rosenberg: And then, you know, we've all heard the stories from Vince about like seeing the receipts coming in on WrestleMania night and realizing that he wasn't broke, you know, and all that, all that, again, kayfabe in there, guys. But it took him until WrestleMania 3, I think, to really figure out how to one-up it. It wasn't being in three locations at the same time. That was like Vince getting his magical formula absolutely backwards. the way to do it better was to tell the story tell the Hulk Hogan story better and with Andre

32:21David Shoemaker: the Giant they did it why do you think that you in the book you know you spend a lot of time obviously and we're talking to David Shoemaker whose book Why Hulk Hogan Matters is out right now you spend time on obviously Hulkamania dying in in WWE in the latter years um you know particularly when you get to seven, eight, and then of course nine, it's over. But what did happen? Why did they go from Pontiac Silverdome to Trump Plaza from three to four? Was it a business deal that they had just signed and thought it was a good idea? Because a lot of times when SGG and I are having an argument, which SGG loves to make about Hogan's falling off and this or that, he'll bring up you know yeah three was so big but four and five were so small to me that doesn't seem to be a Hogan thing at that point Hogan's still red hot it feels like by the time you get to four

33:20Peter Rosenberg: absolutely true I mean re-watching it the arena size hardly matters in the sense that like the crowd is screaming just as loud wherever they are at least through four and into five I think that there are a lot there's probably a lot of reasons. I think at the very base, it's the same thing that you and I have seen time and time again, which is that wrestling is an incredibly cyclical built business. And it's a huge, the most important thing is maximizing the heights when you reach them, you know, and also maximizing the tail as you, as you come out of them. The fact that like they've got to one and still climbed from one to three, you know, one, two, three.

34:03Peter Rosenberg: Yeah. It dropped off. Attendance dropped off a little bit after that. And I don't know the details of why, but the fact that they were able to keep it going for as long as they did is, is actually really impressive. I mean, that's kind of what WWE is looking at right now. Right. I mean, it's not, um, and probably one of the more impressive things is like, it's not as absolutely electric as it was in that very peak, you know, bloodline storyline days. Yeah. When punk had just come back and like, you know, there's like, and Cody was there, there's all that. It just felt like the coolest thing in the world was suddenly pro wrestling.

34:38Peter Rosenberg: probably the hardest job, the hardest thing that WWE is going to deal with and is dealing with now is keeping it steady when the attention span goes down a little bit. It's always going to be cyclical. It's always going to be a bumpy ride. So how do you prevent going back to Trump Plaza? How do you keep it from going? How do you raise the floor, basically? and you know it's just a really cyclical business WWE's doing a good job of it now I guess you could say that Vince did a less good job of it in you know 86, 87 but I just wonder whether

35:17David Shoemaker: was the deal already in place with Trump to go there in 88 it just seems like still like the business in spite of the fact that Hogan wasn't going to end up in the main event they knew they were going to find a way to get out of him and Andre it still feels like they didn't need to be at Trump Plaza and back to back for that matter. I don't know. It just reeks to me of like a handshake deal that of course I would know. You're the one, you've spent hours at different points interviewing Vince McMahon. You never talked about that.

35:47Peter Rosenberg: Well, no, no. I mean, but it was, I mean, Trump offered him a shit ton of money. It was like a mini version of the Saudi deal. I mean, that's my understanding. Is it like they didn't have to pay a site fee or whatever, whatever you don't, you know, the rent that you normally pay to go to an arena. And it's the stuff they did, not the Saudi deal. It's a bad example. It's like WrestleMania now where they say, you know every year it's like or like a couple years ago when WWE was going to go to New Orleans and they said no we're just going back to Vegas and it's still you know it's Vegas is it turns out they're still in negotiations with like you know whatever the event commission is in Las Vegas to offer them X number of millions of dollars to go back you know

36:24David Shoemaker: that was my assumption more than anything is that it was a great deal to go because it really did and I want to get to this on the other side we're going to take one more break but the decline of Hogan leading up to the end and then I want to spend a little bit of time on the return to WWE. It's almost like to spend time on the WCW stuff. You do a great job on the book but it's like this summer in particular there's been so much conversation about it. We'll hit all of it. David Shoemaker is here. The book Why Hulk Hogan Matters is out. It's GP Live on WWE Radio. This time it's serious. Hulk Hogan takes on arch rival Sergeant Slaughter in the WWF SummerSlam spectacular.

37:03David Shoemaker: Hulk Hogan I have declared war on you. Wrestling superstars face off one-on-one in their greatest challenge. A no-host-barred battle for the WWF World Championship title. I'll tell you what the real action is. There's one place you can see the WWF SummerSlam spectacular. Only on USA. Sunday night at 7, 6 Central. Welcome back to Cheap Heat Live. Right here on WWE Radio, Peter Rosenberg. My friend David Shoemaker is here. His book, Why Hulk Hogan Matters, is out right now. How long has it been since your last book? Ten years.

37:40Peter Rosenberg: I've written a lot of things, just not books.

37:43David Shoemaker: So there was some level of intimidation to just writing another book.

37:50Peter Rosenberg: I wasn't scared to write a book so much as I was scared in the act of writing. You're just sort of like, you know, it's just intimidating. once you get the first like thousand words down you're like oh shit now I got like 19 ,000 more to go or whatever the number is you know it's like it's a lot

38:10David Shoemaker: if you've never read Life, Death and Professional Wrestling by the way it's definitely worth it it's a worth it you got one that you got to have that next to it that's how the authors do it

38:18Peter Rosenberg: I got it right here it's always within arm's reach it's much longer you know it's tiny type and like it's a whole different thing it's a very but it's similar in the fact that it's like reminiscences about these wrestlers that we loved and why they mattered to us, you know? When I first started writing about wrestling, you may recall, it was a column called Dead Wrestler of the Week, which was deliberately a provocative title. There were some folks at WWE that didn't like that title very much. That was my introduction to them, which is an awkward way for them to find out who I am. But in fact, it was like these incredibly loving, like heartfelt pieces about like why these wrestlers were so meaningful to fans like us.

39:02Peter Rosenberg: They just happened to be ones that had passed away. So there's a little bit of a Trojan horse in there. Well, maybe it's a reverse Trojan horse, right? And this book, calling it Why Hulk Hogan Matters, is like a reverse of the reverse. Because I think a lot of people see the title and they're like, oh, and the cover, which is a beautiful thing, and say, oh, this is like a puff piece. This is like a celebration of Hulk Hogan. It's like, well, that's in there. But I think Hulk Hogan matters in a much more profound way, which is like all the reasons why he matters once we stopped loving him you know i mean that's still

39:34David Shoemaker: that's still that still matters and have you have you felt the need do you have to add a caveat in a lot of these conversations because to me the word matters as someone who knows you and as knows your morality matters was a very specific choice for all the reasons you just laid out But do you still feel the need to be like, hey, by the way, this is not me just like loving on Hulk Hogan for 160 pages?

40:01Peter Rosenberg: Yeah, all the time, depending on the audience, you know, or the audience meeting, like whoever I'm specifically talking to. Yeah, but it's also like it's impossible or it's nearly impossible to convey both sides of my feelings about Hulk Hogan in a small title. and that is largely why I wrote the book, like working out those feelings, you know? I mean, how many times have you and I talked about this? It's like, how could, like, it's not like some other wrestlers, can I name them here, who have been totally like disappeared, you know, just like you do a terrible thing, we don't talk about you anymore.

40:44Peter Rosenberg: It's impossible to remove Hulk Hogan from wrestling history, but even more than that, it's impossible to remove our love for Hulk Hogan from our wrestling histories, right? I mean, he's the reason why most of us watch wrestling, either directly or indirectly.

41:00Peter Rosenberg: And you can't just skirt past that. It's like I literally wouldn't be writing about wrestling. I wouldn't be podcasting about wrestling. I wouldn't be thinking about wrestling if it wasn't for Hulk Hogan. He profoundly affected our lives. I said it before, but logically I know I didn't watch Hogan beat the Sheik on television. But like you, but I feel like I did, you know, and you probably have the same thing. Like you've seen it so many times, but like, no, we did. I didn't start watching WWF TV until Hogan was the champion. It's like he won the belt. And then suddenly we were all, we all started tuning in.

41:37Peter Rosenberg: I don't even know how we found out about it, but like suddenly we were just like all watching wrestling. It was the, it's the strangest thing. And, um, yeah, like maybe there is a weird alternate reality where like that never happens. Hogan stays in the AWA and maybe I just start watching Jerry Lawler Memphis wrestling on Saturday mornings without the WWF component, you know, without that being back to back.

41:58David Shoemaker: But if it helps, I think in my in my other part of my life, I have found the perfect comp for Hogan. And I bring this up because I think it's necessary for me, particularly in doing the show with SGG every week, who is a proud black wrestling fan who is like incredibly harmed and hurt by Hulk Hogan's wrongs. not that I at all believe one has to be black to feel hurt or harmed by his wrongs I think all of us do but I can see in SGG's reaction when we talk to him sorry when we talk about Hogan I can see it and I found the I think I found an almost exact comp from another part of my life and that is Kanye West Kanye West is my Hulk Hogan in hip hop Like he has done things that are so specifically offensive to my like being similarly to how I think Hogan's actual specific words that eventually ended his legacy in the eyes of a lot of people were so specifically harmful.

43:08David Shoemaker: Like, oh my God, you said the worst sorts of things that we ever think white people could think about black people. Like you said it on tape. You know what I mean? It's such an unerasable feeling for people. And Kanye, similarly, his brilliance musically, you know, like my beautiful dark twisted fantasy is WrestleMania 3. You know what I mean? Like it can't be erased. It is like this perfection that I still want to listen to I'm So Appalled. And I do. But these – and by the way, similar shitty half-assed apology tour doesn't seem like he's ever going to get it all the way right. Like he just kind of keeps meandering into, yeah, but it's about other things, which I think is part of Hogan's tragedy was just never the ability to fully own it.

44:07Peter Rosenberg: it's not just it wasn't just the not owning it it's like he pivoted really fast into dude like why are you guys still talking about this like i didn't i haven't i already apologized like but he's still never apologizing you know it's just like which is the perfectly which is

44:20David Shoemaker: the the the most white thing ever of like no no i've already done it why why why are you harping

44:26Peter Rosenberg: on this this this thing for so long there's a there's a piece and and you know just hit just mute my mic if i'm totally off base here but as you're saying this i don't really think about it I mean, there's a piece of it as a white wrestling fan that it's almost like going back to that, like this stuff's fake. Don't you know this stuff's fake days of our youth where it's like. It's not not ever going to be as damaging to you or I for Hulk Hogan to use the N word so liberally. Right. But there's a point where it's like. The conflict that comes with it, like it would be easier in some sense if I was just like, fuck this guy, never want to think about him again.

45:00Peter Rosenberg: I have good friends like David Dennis is a friend of mine. Right. Right. And when he when a great, great writer, all the things. When I when he died, I wrote the piece that I wrote, which led to this book about Hogan. And he wrote a book that he wrote a piece that was just like Hogan's legacy is not complicated. He's a racist. That's all you need to know. Right. And David's a great wrestling fan. And like, I will read everything that guy writes. But he has a different point of view than me. But, you know, in that in the sense that he's able to just like wash his hands of it. And it's like, I wish that I could, man.

45:34It's like the conflict, the conflict that I feel inside is the hardest part, you know, like not being able to not being able to to to come to peace with it and feeling kind of terrible about it.

45:47Peter Rosenberg: You know, for all the people that are just heartbroken, like you see them and you're like, I should feel more strong or I should I should be more firm about this. It's a mess.

45:56David Shoemaker: But listen, I don't think you should beat yourself up about that because, you know, everyone has the right to have the feeling they have about each person. And everyone has another person in their life who they go, well, hold on. This one's a little bit more complicated for me. Can I float an idea by you?

46:14Peter Rosenberg: This came up on another interview I was doing. It's nothing I'd really thought about in depth before. But I feel like in all of media and entertainment media broadly defined, our hearts get broken more the more we feel like we know the celebrity. Right? It's like your favorite historian would have to work really hard to get you to say, I'm never reading that guy again. There have to be like some real out of pocket stuff. Like my favorite novelists, like I don't know what they look like. You know, like I can't. Let alone do I know what they like. I know that people follow J.K. Rowling and get mad at when she says anti-trans nonsense or whatever, but she's a major celebrity.

46:56Peter Rosenberg: Most of these writers, you don't even know what they look like. You don't know what they're saying in their personal life. You don't know what they think. It's really hard for a writer to get canceled. Even J.K. Rowling still publishes books because there's so many people that will buy her books that have no concept of what her politics are or on another side of it or whatever. It doesn't matter. and then music is sort of in the middle where it's like now modern artists we feel like we know them really well right social media has changed that sure but like it doesn't matter man you can cancel Michael Jackson we're still going to go to the movie you're still playing Billy Billy Jane at the barbecue like what like it's not like there's no getting away from just like the the the music right and he's not even the best example but like you know you probably wouldn't have to walk too probably I wouldn't have to walk too far down to the street to hear like you know Diddy playing at some point over the summer you know like whatever you know it's like it's a different level but with wrestlers and a lot of actors and again some musicians like Kanye now who we feel like we know but like wrestlers are like part of what makes wrestling so effective is that like as a wrestling fan you feel like you know Hulk Hogan well it's a lifetime it's a

48:01David Shoemaker: lifetime part yeah I mean that's that's the magic when I went you know last week's show I did a segment talking about a live event that I went to in Fairfax, Virginia. And I was there with my brother and our first show together in a real way since we were kids. I don't even know if him and I went together as kids. Anyways, as we're watching, you know, Charlotte, as she was leaving, was like just completely baby facing the crowd and taking pictures with everybody and, you know, I mean, she has a baby face right now, doing all the things. And I was just saying to him, I was like, this is just what's so cool about it.

48:37David Shoemaker: There's no other media form where like you can love Captain America. And it's like, here comes Captain America. Get a picture. Like only wrestling allows you to do that. And that specific crux, like that is why the Hulk Hogan thing sucks so bad. Because he is that guy. And it's really, really hard to go. And you and I have talked about this before. And you spoke about it in the book. his inability to navigate Terry Bollea and Hulk Hogan is sort of the undoing of it all.

49:10Peter Rosenberg: Sure. I mean, Ric Flair, for better or worse, for worse, I'll go ahead and be the decision maker there, totally bought into, I mean, he became Ric Flair. Like Richard Fleer is not a thing. He's just, he lives the gimmick. Everybody said it a million times. Hogan might have been better off living the gimmick. I mean, it might have been, it probably would have been a lot harder to uphold because, you know, Ric Flair at least had the drinking and carousing built into the gimmick or just like the stuff you want to do in your free time as part of the gimmick. You know, we don't know what Hulk Hogan does in the free time, except I guess like ride motorcycles and jet skis.

49:43Peter Rosenberg: I guess that was worked into the gimmick. But like, but yeah, he never quite figured out where to draw the line. And it's not, listen, being a babyface is a lot different than being a heel in this regard. We had really high expectations for him. You know, and I say that you can you can we can all laugh about it. We can all joke about say your prayers and say your prayers and take your vitamins. But like he was a great American hero. You know, he was really it not just for us wrestling fans. I feel like in retrospect, and I get to this in the book, like he was a bet. He was more of an he was a more perfect 80s icon for like 80s America than all the other people we name.

50:27Peter Rosenberg: when we talk about 80s America. He was the entire Reagan era just in one baby-oiled ball. And it's just... He had to continue playing that character beyond the point when it was still feasible. And eventually, by the end of the book, you start asking yourself, or by the end of my thought process about this, I'm asking myself, Hogan was America in the 80s, And that's when we loved him so much. And now you have to look yourself in the mirror and say, wait, is Hulk Hogan actually America now too? And that's part of why it's so tough to deal with. Like maybe he never really stopped being the perfect encapsulation of us.

51:14Peter Rosenberg: And that's why it's so hard.

51:17David Shoemaker: yeah and and and the 80s was a time of course that was so good for some people and so bad for others uh and him being emblematic of that is its own thing last last last thing that you brought up the netflix debut um and your description of it is um is awesome pain sad but but awesome i'm firmly a believer that hulk and i think we've discussed this that hogan's political appearances showing up for Trump at the convention, while all of it played a factor to me, we all know that wrestling fans have looked past a lot of people's politics and continued to cheer. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas with Hogan, it was different.

52:04David Shoemaker: And I maintain that that is a mix of so many things. And it's not just the politics. It's not even just the gawker trial in the tape. it's the fact that like his lack of effort it seemed like over the last several years to try to give anyone anything special at all and to cap it off with I'm going to just in the middle of this big moment where all this cool stuff is happening on the show and what's my role? I'm hawking my beer I just think that was as big a deal in it as anything

52:39Peter Rosenberg: I totally agree I totally agree there's a lot that went into it He's obviously in LA, which is presumably not the best audience for someone who's just spoken at the RNC. And by the way, the RNC thing, like, I could give a fuck about anybody's politics. You know, like, I was probably hanging out with people that were cheering for Donald Trump, like, that very week, you know? But, like, the fact is, I talked about, like, the weight of being the great American hero. Like, Hulk Hogan's not supposed to pick sides, you know? Captain America's not supposed to pick sides. They represent all of us. Right.

53:12Peter Rosenberg: And and and that's why that's why that was not an ideal situation for me. But for a lot of the people in L.A., that wasn't ideal. But I really think if he just came out and said, hey, guys, I'd like I just want I'm just thank you for everything that wrestling has given me. And I hope that this new era of wrestling is as awesome as it was in the 80s. I don't think he would have gotten booed, you know, but he's out there like selling beer with Jimmy Hart waving a flag behind him. And it's just like the only reason you're coming back is to make a buck, like in the most transparent way possible. I don't know.

53:44Peter Rosenberg: It wasn't it. It wasn't ideal. But you're right. He never could quite get his head around apologizing for it.

53:54David Shoemaker: And then and then and then you're piling on to it now. You know, the political times we live in are obviously so loaded. so any questions that people might have had then making the decision to go that way it just was like spiking the football on people's emotions it feels like and also i'll push back on one thing everyone makes a deal out of it being la it wouldn't have been great anywhere just to be no no no like you know like you and i around wrestling it's like it's there's a bad vibe

54:24Peter Rosenberg: around hogan and the wrestling fans are reacting to the existence of that vibe it's not their particular you know it's like come on dude like do we really like i'm like i don't want to be having another hulk hogan conversation i would rather talk about cm punk and roman reigns like they're the ones that matter right now i don't want to be dragged back into this feeling of just anxiety that hulk hogan gives me it's you just would rather avoid it and uh yeah i mean listen they had to sell some beers i guess but it was just a very very poor decision you and i both know the story it's travel around a lot online but it is as you and i both know very true about when he came back and they called an all-talent meeting backstage and they were like hey you're gonna uh and everybody was expecting the big locker room apology from hogan and instead he just like cut a promo about like making sure nobody's secretly videotaping you and a lot of dudes that a lot of wrestlers that you and i both know were just like stunned they're like how on earth could that be your what you say in this moment you know and it's just like everything else it's like he just totally missed the point you know like he just totally he could not wrap his head around why anybody was mad and maybe maybe that's because maybe that's what being Hulk Hogan means maybe being Hulk Hogan means always being right no matter what you know and and maybe he wouldn't have been successful if he was the sort of introspective person who could see how ridiculous it would be to not apologize immediately in a moment like that.

55:57Peter Rosenberg: But maybe that's it. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's that mindset that got him to where he was, and that's exactly what brought him down in the end.

56:04David Shoemaker: Interesting to think about how that entire meeting happened and if it would have happened. Not with CM Punk in the locker room. It would have been a different world coming back to this current locker room. if punk had sat there and listened to something come short of an apology i'm not trying to make cm punk jesus the way some people would but i just think he's the single most likely person from both his morals and his clout to be able to make a bro that ain't cutting it yeah and i would

56:37Peter Rosenberg: he definitely would have been sitting next to you on the on the post show just like like doing a a parody of what hulk hogan said just like line by line telling the world what had happened um Um, yeah, I mean, you summed it up.

56:49David Shoemaker: You summed it up well though, like in terms of like, uh, the feeling that fans may have had when he came back of like, I just don't feel like dealing with this anymore. It's like, there are people who absolutely hate Hogan at this point. There are people who still love him and ignore everything. And then I think there are most of us in the middle who love his work to death. Like so much of it, I've grown to even appreciate more as I got older. I credit that work with why I'm sitting here today, but also he brings anxiety. He literally makes me like stressed out also. And I think...

57:24Peter Rosenberg: What was your last good Hogan moment? Oh. I mean, it had to be when we were like doing a podcast together, right? I mean, there had to be some positive Hogan moments in there, right? Well, I mean, I think our interview

57:38David Shoemaker: with him, I thought was... Oh yeah, that's right.

57:39Peter Rosenberg: We had that great interview with him that was really that was i mean i think that's i think that's about 12 years ago

57:44David Shoemaker: um and then after that i bumped into him a couple of other times and um i have a picture with him i interestingly have this picture with him that to me is just like it's crazy i'll describe the picture and you'll understand why it's it's in the small barclay center has like the weirdest smallest catering area of any arena I feel like that we go to. And I was at, this is before I worked at the company, but I guess I was a guest of someone, probably Mark Henry. And so I have a photo in catering of me, Hogan, Mark Henry, Wale, and Booker T.

58:30Peter Rosenberg: Can you just make that, you know, the shirts that just have the photo of the thing on it can you just have that shirt it's just it's

58:39David Shoemaker: just this bizarre moment in time um and and i'm trying to do the math what is the year everything

58:46Peter Rosenberg: went down um do you know the year that it all came out uh it would have been 2000 uh dude um

59:002015 to 1415 let's see right am i crazy no no it would have been before that

59:09Peter Rosenberg: original excerpts 212 that would have been when it's 22 excerpts came out in 2012 yeah and the lawsuit i think finally settled some a while after um

59:23David Shoemaker: but man i i i can't imagine this picture though was was after the because he was gone he was

59:30Peter Rosenberg: persona non grata for the longest for for a couple years and we were we were taping you and i were

59:37David Shoemaker: doing cheap heat and sgg was there sgg would know it was essentially his start date so it's something like six 2016 or something oh yeah it's around 2016 when like the the meat of the worst stuff came out, I suppose.

59:53Peter Rosenberg: Yeah, the original Gawker leak was just the sex. The N-word stuff wasn't a part of it. And by the way, I think people kind of know this now, but just in case you don't, one of the... Hogan sued Gawker in large part because he knew what was on that tape. They only released 15 seconds of the sex tape, but he knew that all that other... If that tape exists, then there's probably some more stuff on there. That's why he sued him, not to protect his privacy or anything like that. But it ended up backfiring and the whole tape got out anyway um i mean just it's just what a what a mess i mean you said it before it's like we you know we celebrate i remember when it happened i remember sitting in the hot 97 studio with you and greg saying dude no no it was it was grant it was grantland wasn't it when we interviewed hogan oh yeah it would have been back there i think it was

1:00:43David Shoemaker: in the new york grantland studios where we did the oh yeah yeah yes that yeah but but i remember

1:00:49Peter Rosenberg: sitting with you at some point and just saying, dude, if we want to erase every pro wrestler who's ever said the N-word from the history of the sport, it's going to be a real empty room. There's like back in the olden days, I don't think you could really make choices like that. But that's part of why Hogan's different. He moves this into the modern era. He is this timeless icon. I think it's totally fair game to be like you have ruined our trust, you have broken our hearts, you have disrespected humanity like you know whatever like you you can you can be you you're allowed to be that offended by him um but you know how hard would it have been to say i mean he did say in the i think in the early going when he tried to make his first apology in people magazine or like whatever he was just like i think he got into like we're all a little bit of the product of our environment

1:01:41David Shoemaker: which again hold on but again hold on vintage hogan lying though what about how he would always try this drove me nuts he would always try to pull the well when i was a kid growing up hanging out with black kids everybody would use the n-word and it's like no dude first of all no second of all that's not how you were using it on the table that's not how he was using it yeah like like they weren't using it like that and by the way there's no worse is there any worse of all the different racists out there would there be any worse than than someone who hangs out with black people and then but then when they're alone with white people uses the same word again in the most vitriolic racist way possible you're not helping your case dude yeah like he just he just was was horrible let's go back to the last great thing the last great thing was the rock and and you spend some time on that in the book i was were you at msg i was at msg when he came out to

1:02:40Peter Rosenberg: save sean michaels from the hands of the attack from muhammad asana and davari were you at msg

1:02:45David Shoemaker: that night? No, I wasn't.

1:02:48Peter Rosenberg: That was my life. I mean, I always think back to that day because I remember leaping out of my seat. Like, we kind of knew Hogan was coming back, but that was the big return moment. The music hits, and I get to be eight all over again. You know? It's like, it's... I think a lot of modern fans get it from, like, The Undertaker. It's like, no matter how old or immobile that dude is, if the gong hits, you're like, this is a moment I will never forget. If I'm, if you're there in person and I had that moment with Hogan, like right before it sort of took the big turn, but you're right. Let's talk about Hogan and rock, which I think is the, it's the, it's,

1:03:26David Shoemaker: listen, there was good stuff after that. Like I, I didn't, you just brought up the Muhammad Hassan thing. You know, the Shawn Michaels thing was fun. The Randy Orton thing was fun. Like he did some greatest hits there at the way end that were fun, but the rock was the last moment of like important greatness. that particular match. It might have been the pinnacle, dude.

1:03:46Peter Rosenberg: I mean, I know it wasn't as big as Hogan-Andre or anything like that, but like when you talk about Hogan's work rate, you know, this could be its own two-hour show talking about why his shtick worked so well. I think largely it's because he just distilled it all down to the absolute bare minimum. It's just the bare bones and those little things really worked. but there's not a lot of Hogan matches that you would put on in the Pantheon, right? There's not a lot of, if you made a, if you made a super cut of like the 50 matches that everybody should watch, whether they're a wrestling fan or not, there'd be some Hogan, there'd be some Hogan, there'd be some Hogan moments, but there wouldn't be, there wouldn't be like Hogan matches.

1:04:34Peter Rosenberg: Like there's no five star Hogan match. The only one that you, but Hogan rock, Like you could make the case that that's like the greatest wrestling match of all time. Well, but you, not because of work, right? Because of the, because of the crowd, because of the way that, well, and the way that they

1:04:48David Shoemaker: listen and, and yes, you know, and probably if we're being honest, probably rocks a lack of selfishness, like his willingness to, his willingness to listen and go, Oh, this is his show, not mine. Whatever we thought this was going to be, I'm going to win and I'm going to take the torch but this is about saying goodbye to him rock deserves a ton of credit for that but i will push back you you describe the the hogan andre match well in your book and like that that thing is 13 minutes and there's a lot of not a lot of movement but in terms of what makes hogan be great in the ring it was like his he's perfect he's that that is his he makes it look and again you describe this so well in the book, Why Hulk Hogan Matters by David Shoemaker.

1:05:34David Shoemaker: Out right now, you really get into how good he was at selling. And that whole match, he makes you feel, even though you know going into it, he's going to beat Andre, he makes you feel throughout the 13 minutes for the first 12 and a half. It's like, he can't. It's so good.

1:05:55Peter Rosenberg: It's a really spectacular match from start to finish. I mean, it was just absolutely perfect. I don't buy Hogan's story that he wrote the whole thing down on yellow legal paper and still has those pages to this day, despite him saying that right in front of me when we were filming the fence talk. But you could almost believe it based on how perfect the match was. I don't know about you, but often now when I rewatch that match, I'm struck more by Andre's limitations, which you saw, which were really clear soon thereafter. It got very obviously next year but he's yeah feuding with warrior jake the snake and he like literally can't stand up without holding on the ropes you know like there's like but but even knowing those limitations like that's the story that's the real life story that hogan should be selling not i didn't know if andre was gonna let me win it was like dude i slammed a guy who could barely stand up and weighed 500 pounds you know like that's that's much more impressive than the kayfabe version of it um but anyway yeah i mean that match and then the hogan rock match i mean i think are just absolutely indisputable like some of the two of the greatest matches of all time and what made hogan hokamania work just like what makes any successful wrestling angle work is the crowd i said it a million times you're not a baby face unless you're getting cheered right i mean it's like the crowd is the third partner in every professional wrestling performance and that match Hogan Rock is like they were as involved intimately involved in the outcome of that match well not the not the decision but just like the way that match went than they've ever been I mean in real time it's really just an amazing amazing thing to experience and I found

1:07:38David Shoemaker: this is the most stupid and I'm sort of embarrassed to say it but I think it's relevant the most important lesson I ever learned about professional wrestling because I've never taken bumps and done any of the things that the guys and girls do to make this thing work. Wait, you were 24-7 champion.

1:07:53Peter Rosenberg: You've never taken them. But that's where I'm going. Okay.

1:07:56David Shoemaker: The greatest lesson I ever learned was in trying to pull off that one tiny nothing thing. Once the cameras went live and they're like, all right, here we go. And you're like, wait, I have to get all of this right. And all I had to do was a little interaction with Truth. i distract him for a second nut shot pin that's it dude to now think about the fact that these guys and girls put on these five-star matches like i was like it was terrifying to do anything because like well i have to do it the right spot and then i can't mess this up and anything you do it ruins the thing and then you watch hogan andre when hogan goes for the slam early on and Andre falls on him.

1:08:45David Shoemaker: Dude, what if Andre lands slightly off and breaks all of Hogan's ribs and ends the match? There's so many ways anything can go wrong. The fact that they're able to do it, I'm still amazed by it to this day. Yeah.

1:09:00Peter Rosenberg: It's really incredible.

1:09:02David Shoemaker: Hogan deserves a lot of credit for that. Oh, absolutely. Dude, absolutely. I always say, Shoemaker, the first thing when you become a smart fan, at least back in like the, you know, 20 years ago, the first thing you do when you're, I'm a smart fan, Hulk Hogan sucks. And then when you become a really smart fan is Hulk Hogan is awesome. Like learning how good he was and how slow and meticulous he was in the ring and the moments that mattered really put him, I think as a wrestler, I would argue at this point, he's essentially underrated as a professional wrestler, not of course. Yeah.

1:09:38Peter Rosenberg: I don't disagree. I mean, you cannot take exception to his quote unquote work rate or, you know, any of the affect for the first like five years of Hulkamania. Like, yes, he was doing the exact same thing every single night in every single town on every single show. But it was exactly what everybody wanted. Like there was nobody. Nobody was rolling their eyes when he was cupping his ears to the crowd, you know, and like Poughkeepsie in 1986. You know, like they were going absolutely bonkers. But I think that that's part of why when Hulk Hogan starts tailing off, we discussed a little bit earlier.

1:10:14Peter Rosenberg: I think that's why I think it's more has more to say about us than it does about him. It's not a failure of Hulk Hogan. It's we kind of got to this point as a culture where we're just like, I know exactly what I want from Hulk Hogan. Also, I am very bored by those things, you know, and it's like you don't you don't want Hogan to evolve necessarily. Him turning heel was an incredible idea. like if you bought a ticket to a WWF house show, like you'd be mad if he didn't do the, if he didn't play the hits. Right. But also you're just like, but this is just, it's such empty calories at this point, you know?

1:10:47Peter Rosenberg: And that's part, that's, that's why that's when Hogan started faltering. That's why it's still an open conversation topic to this day. Like why did the Hulkamania die out? It's like, well, I don't really know, man, we were all sort of a part of it. We just got tired of it, but we couldn't let it go.

1:11:01David Shoemaker: and this is where I argue with SGG all the time and I'm sure SGG will listen to this episode and will continue the argument Hogan's reign on top it's a long time I mean you're talking about if you became really aware of it in 85 and you were 10 years old you know by the time you get to 91 you're 16 like your entire perspective has changed and everything you think about has changed

1:11:28Peter Rosenberg: that's part of appealing to kids that your audience is going to evolve. They're going to change their minds about things. And that's part of the deal. But you're absolutely right. It was a really long time. You can go back through the history of wrestling. Having a baby face on top for that long is really uncommon. Obviously, it works a lot better with a heel. It's just a lot easier to tell those stories over and over again. That's why people love Ric Flair, but that's also why people look back with fondness on Ric Flair versus Ricky Morton because they had to crank new challengers out for him and tell the same story.

1:12:09Peter Rosenberg: It worked. They found a way to make it work. I've talked about Jerry Lawler before. I mean, he wasn't always the champ, but he was basically always the main guy in Memphis, and he switched back from babyface to heel every so often just to keep things fresh, and he was the best heel when he was a heel, and he was the best babyface when he was a face,

1:12:28David Shoemaker: which is which is you know a conversation we've been having regularly about Cody Rhodes here it's just that to me I don't understand what they're hoping to get out of Cody anymore like beyond this point as a good guy he has given you like four years almost four years on top as a good guy like how long short of Hogan's run which was in a completely different era as we've talked about how many times in history has a good guy run on top and continue to get cheered and people will throw out john cena but you and i were around enough to know he was a heel he was getting he was getting booed way more than cody has gotten booed his entire run here so it's not the same thing i i'm i'm where do you real quick before we let you go talking to david shoemaker where do you fall on that do you think the time is now or already was for cody to turn the thing that the

1:13:21Peter Rosenberg: thing that I can't that that keeps me up at night is that like in every major Cody feud there's a moment where it seems like he's about to flip either turn heel or absolutely lose it every feud does have a moment where it's like oh now he's using the steel chairs and the announcers are selling it like he's like dropping a nuclear bomb you know it's like he's lost his mind you know it's like the end of Game of Thrones or whatever it's oh this the mental illness has finally gotten to him you know like whatever um but then they just like they they just forget about it a week later and then they like rerun the same bit you know like I don't I don't know what I really want to know is like what's the point like what are we trying to what are they trying to convey what do they think they're conveying is that they're trying to convey that like you can kind of be a heel and a face at the same time even if you're the top baby face because it's not really coming across but I agree with you I would love to see him have a little bit more of a heel run or just invite the booze a little bit more yeah I mean that's the hedging way to

1:14:18David Shoemaker: do it I guess is yeah just invite welcome it more. I would go, I, of course I'm here for full on, you know, I'm, I'm here for a full on scene. A heel turn.

1:14:27Peter Rosenberg: I know that it's, I know that it's sacrilegious. I know that everyone that hears this is going to be like shoemaker's just full of it again. Isn't Cody exactly the dude who should relaunch the four horsemen? Like, is it, isn't like Cody with just like some, with just some other dudes in suits, like exactly what you want to see from him as a heel. I mean I just think like and you don't have to be a heel you don't have to be like I hate fans now you just have to be like I'm a dude that like dresses really well and is very proud of myself and my friends here agree and you're you're functionally a villain you know you're funny like for the purposes of pro wrestling you're a heel by the way that gets lost so much in these conversations where I'm like oh blah blah blah is so and so going to turn heel and inevitably believe 50 % of the response is there's no face and no heel anymore this is modern it's like yes but wrestling the pro wrestling match is a centuries old tradition you know it's a decade hundred multiple multitudes of decades old in a modern sense and like they tell stories in a certain way and part of the way you tell stories is like there's a baby face and there's a heel

1:15:37David Shoemaker: you know and like when the bell rings anyway I would I would say this if you if you don't if you believe like we're beyond faces and heels, I would say go to a live event, a non-televised event. It is faces and heels. Okay. Every single match. All right. His name is David Shoemaker. The book, Why Hulk Hogan Matters is out. There you go. We both got copies sitting right here. Go check it out. Shoe, always a pleasure to do this. Let's do it again soon.

1:16:06Peter Rosenberg: Anytime, man. Congratulations on the radio show. I know it's new, new stuff for you.

1:16:10David Shoemaker: Yes. I'm trying out this radio thing. All right. We'll see you guys next week right here on GP live on WWE radio.