438 | Dollars and Sense | Clint Murphy & Ginger

24:58It's so disconnected from the actual event. Yeah. And I like what you said before, Ginger, and I want to make sure everybody heard it. So right, you're either increasing or decreasing the pain that goes along with this spending, right? So if your goal, and it's not to say one is laudable and one isn't, right? Like there's not a right answer because it's situational and it's situational in your life. If you're looking to have a guilt-free vacation where you don't worry about the stress of paying, then pay far in advance, it sounds like. Whereas if you are looking to potentially spend less just in general, you want to keep that payment point as close to or maybe after is ultimately what I'm hearing you say, right?

25:39Right. The other fun one for us to share with the listeners as we go through these sometimes is the books written in a way where it's, hey, be aware of these things so you reduce your spending so that you make less financial mistakes. Where it can often be fun if you're running a business or you have products or you have services is how do I use these psychological failing points to sell whatever it is I'm selling, to get more podcast listeners, to sell more digital products, to have more people come to my coffee shop. So the one thing that the listeners probably ought to be aware of is most of these large corporations have entire teams dedicated to reading books like this, hiring psychologists like this to tell them, what are the psychological flaws that I can take advantage of in my copywriting, campaigns, advertising, et cetera?

26:38Yeah, exactly. The coffee club is not there for me. Yes. The consumer, right? Exactly. And there's a great example in the book about this in particular, especially for any anybody who has a business or an online business specifically, maybe where you sell courses or sell something like that. So Dan Ariely talked about this in his prior book, Predictably Irrational, which is fantastic. And they were talking about subscriptions to The Economist to illustrate this problem. So in this case, they could get an online subscription for$59, a print subscription for$125 or a print and online subscription for that same$125.

27:16So in this scenario, 84 % of the people chose the print and the web because it sounds like a great deal, right? You're getting this for free and the 16 % would choose the web only and none chose the$125 print only, which makes sense, right? Why would you choose that? But then what if our choice was just between the$59 web-only offer and the$125 print and web option. So suddenly 68 % would choose web-only up from 16%, while only 32 % would go for the$125 print and web option down from 84%. So just by including this clearly inferior print-only option, which nobody chose, it literally was just there as a lark more or less.

28:03The Economist nearly tripled the sales of its$125 web and print version. Why? Because that print-only option was a decoy employing relativity to push us towards the combo deal. Yeah, this is wild. Clint, I know for people who have had online businesses for a while, that three options, this is something we talk about a lot, right? Yeah. I've heard, and we'd have to fact check this, but even if you go to a restaurant and you're looking at the wine list, people think, oh, the expensive wines, that's where they really get you. And you've got these low price ones, but I don't want those ones. Apparently, the ones that have the highest margin for the restaurant are the mid-priced wines.

28:41So you look at the high ones, you think, well, I don't want to spend that much money. So maybe I'll have a glass of this. But that one in the middle is the one that has the highest margin. And so they've decoyed you down from the top, up from the bottom into the exact one they want you to drink that has the highest margin for them. Right. And so the important point here is not just that it's the middle, but because the middle is the powerful place, that means that the range can change. So it can be between$5 and$15. And then that$10 one is going to be the most appealing. But using that concept, you move it up and you say, okay, actually, the lowest end is going to be $10 and the highest end is going to be$20.

29:24So now the middle is 15 and that's the one that everyone's going to choose. So that middle option, there's a quote that I had highlighted, the cheapest and most expensive items are road signs funneling us to the middle option. And I guess it's because we don't have a sense of like an absolute value for things. It seems like everything is relative based on what's around us. I always like to say like humans are not absolute animals. We are relative animals of the people that live around us or what we see. And I know this was in the book. I don't have a quote on it, but it's that old thing of, hey, would you rather make$150 ,000 when everybody around you is making$300 ,000, or would you rather make$80 ,000 when everybody around you is making$50 ,000?

30:09And it's crazy that most people, because we are not absolute animals, we're relative animals, most people would pick option B, at least in these studies. So it's super interesting how how our brains work. All right, team. The principle that really jumped out at me on this one was the principle of fairness. And I'll give the example that he gives and then tie it back to even this conversation that we have today. And the idea is that the principle of fairness changes our perception of value. If someone provides a service quickly, we're less likely to value it, even if the reason they provided it quickly was because of their experience.

30:48So let's take an example. And many people may have heard this one. It's a Picasso story. And a woman happens to see him in a coffee shop doing his drawings and asks him to do a sketch of her. He looks at her and within seconds, he draws a couple lines and she says, you perfectly captured my essence. How much do I owe you? When he says 5 ,000, she says, but it only took you two seconds. And he says, no, it took me an entire life and a few more seconds. And so when I think about that one, it talks about, if we think about our lives, how do we overcome this issue if we're trying to get paid for our value?

31:29And it talks about increasing transparency. So I look at how we're recording this conversation and I think about how I record and the level of thought and spacing and pausing to get the exact product you want. That's only visible because I'm behind the scenes. To the listener, they may just hear a great finished product and they have no idea of the effort because they don't have the transparency into your recording process of how much work you actually put into it to get that good end product. So here's how they describe it. They say we implicitly assume that something labor intensive is worth more than something that isn't.

32:17And I loved the example they gave of the locksmith and how someone who's really efficient and really good at their job might come and solve your lock problem in three seconds. And then we have feelings about it, like, how can this possibly cost$50? It only took you a few seconds, right? Same scenario as the one Clint just described. And so that there is something funny about how if someone comes and really struggles and, oh, I need to get a different tool and, oh, I'm jingling around with the lock for a while, right? then that person we're happier to pay a higher price for because we see the effort, even though in this example, the effort is fake, right?

32:57And so that's sort of interesting to think of on both ends, to think of as the consumer and how it is that we value others' experience or expertise. And then it's also interesting on the other end of that, which is where should we highlight our effort in a way to make our value apparent. Yeah, I loved that one about the locksmith. I was going to read that story, but here's another scenario. Ever had a stubborn car problem and the mechanic fixes it in a few minutes with one simple tool and turns around and tells us that it'll cost$80. Most people get angry in that circumstance. Now consider if it had taken three hours and cost$120.

33:34Would that seem more justified? What if it took four days and cost$225? Isn't the problem fixed either way? And at a fraction of the time and costs in the first scenario. But if you're honest with yourself, right? Like you think about that, you would be kind of ticked off, which is ludicrous. But again, that's what we're highlighting here is we are not rational beings. We just aren't. But yeah, if you thought that they were laboring over this and it took four days and cost$225, well, okay, that sounds more fair. But right. How silly is that? What you're actually paying for, and I think this is my big takeaway, is you're paying for the job to be completed.

34:11You're paying for, really, put another way, probably more succinctly, is you're looking for that problem to be solved. Yes. Right? Why should you care? You're paying for an expert to solve a problem for you. I go back to, and I don't know where I had this kind of thought process at 13 years old, but I still remember this vividly. This is one of those formative moments in my brain, as weird as this is. It's like a buddy of mine used to mow lawns and he mowed the lawn of his neighbor. And this woman would only pay him per hour of work. It wasn't, I'm going to pay you X number of dollars to finish the job.

34:48So what's his incentive? His incentive is to go as slowly as possible to look like he's laboring and to earn as much money, which that's a slightly different nuance. But really, that woman was paying for her lawn to be mowed and the edges trimmed at its essence. and that should be a job. You should not be penalized. And this is why this was this formative thing for me. I always saw it as he was being penalized for being efficient and being good at his job. And that makes no sense. It was wholly illogical to me then, and it's wholly illogical to me now, which is why the Picasso thing is so beautiful, the locksmith thing.

35:23I mean, this is what it is. You're paying for someone's skill and you shouldn't penalize them for actually being good at their job because they're solving the problem that you need solved. Yeah, this section really inspired me to be a better ginger. I really want to be the person who, when the locksmith comes now, says, oh my gosh, thank you for being so efficient. Exactly. The other thing that they talked about was, well, how do we get across that level of effort if we're not visible, if we're not manual laborers? And so you see the rise in what they call effort language or effort terms, artisanal, handcrafted, fair trade, organic.

36:03So we hear these and we think, well, wow, that must have taken much more effort. I should be willing to pay that extra 20 % for their product. And so do we just discard those? Do we just discard whenever we see those big, bold words on the packaging? Because we know they're trying to sell us on effort. Well, yeah. I wonder, does that get into something else, right? Does that kind of language then become meaningless BS in essence, right? If you see it too often, does it become less meaningful also? Do you think that it's just salesmanship? I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. And that's unfair in a lot of senses if it truly is those things, right?

36:44Because then these words become meaningless. They become buzzwords when they actually had some meaning at the beginning. And I suspect, yeah, it's so interesting how all this stuff works. I think that's my takeaway from everything is this is so interesting. It becomes like an arms race of terms. So now fair trade isn't good enough. So we see that it's organic and fair trade artisanal coffee. So we've just got to keep upping the other packaging to make our standout. Yeah, it's crazy. And I wonder, another thing that's always gotten me, they talk about consumption vocabulary. And one that I've always been intrigued by is wine, and how few people can actually discern the difference between good wine and bad wine.

37:31Like there are just vanishingly few people that can truly tell the difference. But how do we know the difference between quote unquote good wine and not so good wine based on the price, right? That's the proxy for a lot of people. And I think that's the proxy for good and bad in a lot of senses. And they said here, quote, Dan used a simple heuristic, expensive must mean good. So in this case, he got the expensive couch. And it's like, wow, how many of us are tricked into that simple heuristic of expensive, equals good. And the one that jumps out at me that combines those that you both may see if you're fans of sushi is how sushi has evolved over the last, let's say, 20 years.

38:12You used to go and you get your California roll, negatora roll, dynamite roll, very basic things, spicy salmon, spicy tuna. Now it's like in the book, they talk about the slippery eel roll. And it's got all, instead of just saying eel, rice, seaweed, it's an entire paragraph of description of what makes this roll. And instead of being$2.99, it's a$14.99 roll. And is it really 6x the value of what you previously were going to buy? So one of the other concepts we have to talk about is sunk cost, because that's a really powerful one. And sunk cost is where once we've invested in something, we have a hard time giving up on that investment.

38:55And so they talk about that the solution is we shouldn't think about how much we have already invested in a job, a career, a relationship, a home or a stock. We should focus on how likely it is to be valuable in the future. And we got a great email that linked directly to this. So I'm going to read that. This is from Joanna. She said, I decided to give up my kiteboarding equipment worth$2 ,000 to a friend who lives within walking distance of a beach. In contrast, I currently live in Colorado and nowhere near a significant body of water. I bought the kiteboarding equipment several years ago when I lived on the Gulf Coast and took a bunch of lessons which were not cheap.

39:33However, the sport just never clicked despite my best efforts. I have felt so guilty about quitting due to the significant sunk cost of both time and energy. But finally, I'm choosing to focus on the joy I experienced from the challenge of trying to learn a new sport. the opportunity to meet some great people during the lessons and the adventures on the water in beautiful places all over the world. Thank you for this challenge. Yeah, that's a beautiful example. And I think sunk costs, that's one of the things that we fall prey to the most, I suspect. This is something that is universal and it's hard when you've devoted time and resources to something, you factor it in.

40:14It's still there. But the argument usually is, okay, what if you were starting today? What would you do? What choice would you make irrespective of those sunk costs? Because again, using this, hey, you have amnesia, you have no sense of how much money or time or whatever. What is the right decision today? And that is really difficult to do mentally, but it's critical. That is to me, that's the link is I'm breaking my own susceptibility to sunk cost fallacy and just looking at this and saying, okay, what is the right decision today based on the facts on the ground as I see them right at this moment?

40:55Because things change. I think a lot of us look back not only on the sunk cost, but hey, I made this great decision and you have to see it through. But the fact of the matter is it's okay to change your mind. Facts change all the time. We need to update our thinking. This is critical to success in life. You need to update your thinking when facts change. And I think there's a perfect example in the book here. They're talking about, I guess, a fictional car company ultimately, which is what if we were the CEO of a car company and we have a plan for a new car that will cost$100 million to develop?

41:30We've already invested$90 million of that$100 million needed. and all of a sudden we learn that our competitor is nearly finished with a car that's greener, more efficient, and more affordable. The question is, do we abandon our plan and save the last$10 million or do we spend that last$10 million hoping that someone will buy our cars despite their inferiority? And I think just stopping there because it goes on, I think a lot of people would spend that last$10 million because you're so close to the finish line, right? Like I've already put in 90. We're almost there. And then we have something to show for this as opposed to what if we abandon it?

42:06If we stopped right now, we've literally nothing to show for that 90 million. But what's actually the right decision? I think they illustrate that with now imagine the same situation only this time we haven't invested the first dollar and the total expected cost of development is just 10 million. Just as we start really working on the project, we hear that the competitor has designed a better car than ours. Do we invest the$10 million now? At this decision point, the question of whether to invest$10 million or not, these two cases are exactly the same. However, in the first case, it's difficult not to look backward to see the 90 million we've already spent, right?

42:41But now in this second case, you spent nothing. There's no sunk cost. If you were producing something clearly inferior and you hadn't started yet, would you start? I think probably 99 % of people would not start in that case, but I wonder what percent of people would keep going in that exact same scenario, right? Where there's still$10 million to spend. So obviously that's an extreme example. Very few of us are going to be CEOs of car companies. But I think sunk costs and sunk cost fallacy, this is something that you will see impacted in your life at some point. And you probably have seen it many, many times.

43:15So this is a very important takeaway. Yeah. I'm really glad that you hit on how difficult the sunk cost bit is because we talk about some of these other ones like, oh, if you're paying in cash or credit card or, oh, thinking about the timing and where to increase your pain point. And those things are pretty easy. And when you think about sunk cost, oh, your heart just hurts, right? Like, oh, I spent all this time or I spent all this money on this equipment. And so this is one that's really good to understand because when you hit it, it's really hard. This is also one of those ones where we say, well, let's take it away from money and let's apply it to life.

43:55And Brad, you were hinting at it a little. And I looked up one of my favorite quotes from John Maynard Keynes while you were both talking. And it is, when the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir? And when you think about that, so often in life, new information comes out every day. And yet we hold on doggedly to our beliefs, habits, mindsets, how much effort do we spend questioning, do I still hold the right beliefs? Do I have the right mindsets? And if I want to achieve a level of success I haven't achieved yet, what do I need to give up even though I've invested the last 44 years of my life in it?

44:37Because it's probably not serving me. And so you can take that concept of money and you can apply it to your entire life. And the best spot we see this is politics, where people think there's a dividing line in every issue. I'm on this side of the line, so I have to be on this side of the line for every issue. Well, no, that's a big sunk cost fallacy. You can be anywhere on a spectrum at any point in time, but you've invested so much of yourself to being blue or to being red. And now everything you do has to be that way. That's where I see sunk cost fallacy at its worst is in politics. Yeah. And that's also the tie of identity and how you think, hey, I'm lining up on this team and I'm not thinking.

45:19And it's funny because when you were talking about that Keene's quote, I immediately thought of politics actually. And that phrase that people get attacked with is being a flip-flopper. Yes. Right? Exactly. And of course, we're not a political show here. We're just talking about this because it's interesting and the psychological aspects. Like flip-flopper is used as this cudgel to attack somebody when I view it, I view the world as the opposite, which is if you are just dogmatically the same and you never change your mind when facts change, I think that's the worst mentality you could possibly have in life.

45:55Flip-flopper obviously is a wonderful phrase of attack, but really the mindset I think is actually a good one in that, hey, of course I've changed my mind. If I haven't changed my mind since I was 17 years old on a topic, I mean, that's probably pretty odd. And I think I change my mind all the time. I view that as a source of growth, not as something wrong with me or that I don't even know. I can't think of even a way to soften that. That is just simply a source of growth. And the world changes all the time. So another one that jumped out at me in the book that can get us in trouble is this idea that we overvalue what we already have, whether that's our objects, items, or even, for example, our home.

46:38And they call that the endowment effect, which indicates the current owner of an item overvalues it, and therefore they'll want to sell it for a higher price than someone is willing to pay for it. And the example that they give of this in the book is a couple who want to sell a home that they bought, let's say, 20 years ago for$50 ,000. And now its value is somewhere in the neighborhood of$800 ,000 based off transactions that have been happening around them lately. And so for any of us, that would be a massive win. But the market has shifted. And the house may only be worth$750 ,000 today. But because it's their home, and they've seen, tying to relativity, they've seen trades in the area at higher numbers.

47:27They aren't willing to let it go for where market is today because it's their home. So it has to get that high price that the past trades got, even if that's not where the market is today. Right. Another aspect of endowment effect that I thought was interesting was building essentially extraneous items that maybe were of value to you or sentimental value to you into why this house should be worth something. And again, we're picking on the house, but this was such a great example of like, oh, that's where little Jimmy took his first steps. Something like that. Or in this case, they're talking about a chandelier, some ridiculous, I think it was a bike rack chandelier or something that objectively, anybody else is gonna look at and say, wow, that's ridiculous.

48:16Why is that there? Maybe your real estate agent should have staged the place a little better. But to you, that brings up memories of X, Y, and Z. And of course, in your mind, that has value. But really, it goes back to maybe something we were talking about before, which is it's like a sunk cost on some level, right? Like this tie-in of, hey, that is looking at something that is irrelevant to the current decision-making process, which in this case, it doesn't matter what the sentiment was in that. It doesn't matter that you own it. It's not worth anymore. It's worth what someone else is willing to pay for.

48:52That is the definition of a market. And I think when we build a lot of these other extraneous things into a decision-making process, that's where it gets clouded. And I think to me, that's one of the big takeaways of the book just generally is you need to look at the facts on the ground today and not get caught up in these mental fallacies in a sense and just look at what's the reality if I could essentially be someone else looking in on this situation. And that's maybe a step to possibly combat this is, okay, put yourself in someone else's shoes, which is difficult, frankly, but that might be a way like the Viktor Frankl, like the space between stimulus and response, right?

49:33Like this could be an example of how to build that space in of put yourself in someone else's shoes. Is this worth more, less, or the seem. And very rarely is it going to be worth more in someone else's shoes. Yeah, that's one of my favorite quotes that you just mentioned right there from Viktor Frankl. In everything I've done over the last dozen years or so, whether it's FI or improving your life, has been increasing the gap between stimulus and response because that's where we get to make the good decisions. Yeah. And I know this is something I'm working on. I think all of us should be working on this, like that instant quick hit response.

50:07And for me, one of my kind of weird triggers is like, I just, it's some kind of like anxiety or not feeling safe in situate. Like I respond with like a little bit of frustration and anger. Like that's my like initial quick hit response sometimes. And I'm just trying to say like, that is not serving me. Like, why do I do that? I don't, I don't know why. Like I haven't put enough time and effort into figuring out the root cause, but I know that's my response sometimes. Or if I hear a loud noise or something, I instantly, and 99 times out of 100, a loud noise is not any issue. Just take a breath, man.

50:42I think that's what I'm telling myself. It's like, just take a breath. You don't need to be on high alert all the time. And I think, obviously, that's a little insight into my own issues, but I'm on high alert often. And I think that's one thing I'm trying to get better at. And I think that's what's cool about a lot of the stuff we talked about here is like, okay, I clearly just made this psychological in my life, but the same principle works with money. The same principle works with decision making. And that's the beauty of a book like this. And certainly what Viktor Frankl was talking about.

51:15And here you're talking so much about intention. And I think that can lead us nicely into what the authors were talking about, how things end, colors our entire experience of that thing. And so they're talking about it in terms of getting the most out of your money, getting the most out of your experiences. It made me think of something we've talked about, thinking about your memories as dividends. And if you really think about your experiences as investments, then thinking about how they end can be really important. So one example they give is they say, OK, at the end of your vacation, you should really think about the closing.

51:53Like, is the last thing going to be the terrible trip home where your flight was canceled and the plane ride was horrible, right? That's going to influence how you think about the entire trip. But instead, if you end the vacation the night before in your hotel room and you sort of toast to the great adventure that you've had, that makes that experience a better experience. Brad, I know that you just got back from a vacation recently. And so as I was reading this, I was thinking about vacations in my own life. And I wonder, what was the end of your vacation like? Yeah, that's a really good one.

52:29What's funny, as you were saying that, it reminded me of another cognitive bias that I just quickly Googled and luckily found in 10 seconds. And it ties into your question also, which is awesome. So it's the peak end rule. So this is a cognitive bias that impacts how people remember past events, intense positive or negative moments, the peaks, and the final moments of an experience, the end, are heavily weighted in our mental calculus. So peak end rule, this is something that's really important. Now, what's funny, and my particular example, so we went to the Atlantis down in the Bahamas, and the end of our vacation was not fantastic.

53:09So the last day was basically 12 hours of travel, our final flight almost essentially got canceled because some person like almost got arrested on the airplane because he like forcibly made his way. It was crazy, like absolutely wild. It was very memorable. No, it was certainly memorable, which is awesome. It was just wild that it happened. It was one of those things you would have seen like on the news essentially. And like we came within two minutes of this. Luckily, this person escorted himself off the flight before they had to get the authorities involved, which we all would have had to deplane.

53:45So anyway, our flight almost got canceled. It was wild. So that was a 12-hour thing. So the end was not great. But the peaks were so great on the actual vacation that in my mind, it kind of overrode the negativity of the end, which is pretty cool. So the thing that we did, and I think, Ginger, we talked about this on our last roundup, was we did like a swimming with dolphins experience, which the four of us, my family four did this swimming with dolphins thing at the Atlantis. And it was just awesome. It was something we'll remember forever. Like I still can't believe I did that. It was so far, like I'm a good swimmer, but it was very far outside of my comfort zone.

54:22That was a peak. They have these water slides there that I did with my girls and it was just super fun. So the peaks were fantastic and the end was not great, but still in my mind's eye, it was a very positive experience. So that might be interesting as we all think back on vacations of like that peak end, which supersedes the other potentially. I mean, hopefully they're both good. But in my case, one clearly was good and one clearly was not. Yeah. And I think one thing that's helpful about knowing the end thing is that that's something you could potentially have some control over. And so even if the flight is terrible, it's, oh, let's go out to eat, even though we're home to make something else the end.

55:01And that's a brilliant point. And so obviously my stupid story notwithstanding, which is, kind of a silly tangent, but that's what we're looking for here. And that's why we just spent an hour with this episode is, okay, are there ways that we can combat this? And I think that's one cool thing is, hey, vacation is not going to be unicorns and rainbows 24 hours a day. It just isn't. I could look back on our vacation at the Atlantis in this wonderful spot in the Bahamas and say, all right, there were aspects of it that were pretty boring. You're just sitting around. I'm just lounging by the pool.

55:35It's fine for what it is, but those peaks were great. And then yeah, Ginger, in that case, like, hey, maybe the next time we all go on vacations, we think about, okay, we know that we're going to remember the peaks and the end. So what do you do to make them, especially the end, a little bit better? Because there's already some opposing forces in that the end, almost by its very definition, is a laborious day of travel. So how do you make it a little more fun, a little more interesting, a little more memorable? So listeners, if you do this in the future, call in and tell us about it and we'll include it in the roundup.

56:10Yeah. And it makes me think, do you tack on two extra days at home so that when you get back, you have a massage book? Do you have a spa book? Something where you're able to take away from the pain of that travel day. So now you're ending on, hey, I got home. I had some meditation time. I had some spa time. I'm ahead of massage and I'm going back to work relaxed, not stressed from the flight. Yeah, that's cool. Right. Especially for people who try to maximize every minute of vacation. Well, maybe you rethink that, right? Of coming back from the trip doesn't have to end at Sunday at 10 p.m. It might actually be a better experience in that scenario of, hey, we came back on a Friday and then I had these two days of downtime where I have these other fun things planned as opposed to it was stress, stress, stress at the very end.

56:58And oh, no, I've got to wake up tomorrow at 6am and go to work. So yeah, that's a cool takeaway, Clint. I like that. And book it and pay for it in advance so you don't have the pain of pain. Nice. Yeah, Clint, I like it. And this is fun. This is what it's all about. All right. Well, I think that brings us to a close here. This was a lot of fun. It's a tall task, obviously, to try to summarize a book in an hour and podcast episode. But I think hopefully we did a good job of passing along the important lessons and most especially how you, the listener, can really apply this to your life in so many situations.

57:34I think that's what's cool about books like this. And this is one of dozens of books in this genre. Every time I read one of these, I find a couple of those little nuggets that I'm just either astounded by or then astounded by and take into my own life. And yeah, Ginger, as promised, even though I said maybe this is the last book club ever. I think we're going to do another one. This is a lot of fun. And Ginger, people obviously can find you here at Choose a Fi. You're becoming a regular co-host, which is a lot of fun. You also have a website, speaking of fun, called fiisfun.com. And Clint Murphy, I mentioned at the top, you have a podcast called The Growth Guide.

58:13And you are also one of the most prolific people on Twitter. You're one of my absolute favorite followers. I think you have 300 plus thousand followers on Twitter, which is astonishing, but it's not that astonishing when you see the quality of what you're posting there every day. So thank you, my friend. And people can find you at I am Clint Murphy to the audience. Thank you for sending in your emails. We got some voicemails also. We didn't have a chance to play on the podcast here, but we always appreciate this. This is, as we say, a crowdsourced personal finance show, and we greatly appreciate you being involved.

58:48Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the Chooseify community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player and just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to chooseify.com slash subscribe. And it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there. And I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox.

59:24So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this, the ultimate crowdsource personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a by local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to chooseify.com slash local, and you'll find a list of all of those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with FI, or you have a family member or a friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways. Chooseify episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community. And even though it's a couple of years old at this point, it still stands up.

1:00:03And it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence. What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life? And then Choose a Vi created a financial independence 101 course that's entirely free. Just head to choosefi.com slash fi101. And again, thanks for listening.

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