466 | Journey to Financial Freedom | Jamila Souffrant

0:00Hello and welcome to Choose a Fi. Today on the show we have our good friend Jamila Sufran back on the podcast. It's actually been over five and a half years since she last joined us. and she is the author of the brand new book, Your Journey to Financial Freedom and is the host of the Journey to Launch podcast. She just has a remarkable story and I'm so curious to catch up with her to learn how her FI journey has been going since, again, the early days when she had just made a massive change when we last spoke with her to leave her full-time career. So it should be a great catch-up and I really wanna dive into her book because it's absolutely phenomenal.

0:38So with that, welcome to Choose FI.

0:48Jamila, welcome back to Choose FI. It is so good to see you. Hi, Brad. Thank you for having me. Yeah, this should be fun. So, okay. The last we chatted with you was incredibly, or obviously on the podcast, the last time I chatted with you was episode 73, which came out in April of 2018. obviously can't expect you to catch us up on your entire life in 30 minutes but let's go back to where we were then which is i think you had just maybe made the decision to leave your job but you hadn't quite done it yet yeah so if it aired in april 2018 that was just before i gave birth to my third child in may and i was on maternity leave after that but i had already planned to not return to work after my maternity leave.

1:33And so I left and exited the workforce in the fall of 2018. So it wasn't public by the time we probably spoke, but we may have spoke offline about my plans. Gotcha. So right. Obviously, that was a major turning point in your life. Did you think of that or do you think of that in hindsight as a FI move, as an entrepreneurial move? Like, How do you conceptualize that decision? Wow. So my initial journey into financial independence and plan was to ultimately quit my job and reach our version of financial independence where I didn't have to work in seven years from my starting point, which I was 33 at the time when I declared that.

2:14Fast forward a couple of years into my journey, I realized that I couldn't sustain all the things. So the job, the commute, that was an hour and a half one way, journey to launch, which by then I was doing on the side and then the kids. So I was starting to have more kids. And when I got pregnant with my third, I decided to change what the journey looked like because initially I thought I could just withstand it all and just do it for the money and quit when I turned 40 years old and hit my goal. But becoming pregnant and then knowing that I would be a mom of three, I didn't want to live that lifestyle anymore.

2:48So quitting my job is what I call actually stage four of the five journey or stages that I talk about in the book where I've reached work flexibility. And so this decision, depending on how things go with my income, can delay the true path of financial independence because it impacts how much we can save and invest as a family or accelerate it because if I do really well, that's more to save and invest. But ultimately, whether or not it takes me shorter or longer to get to my goal, I'm enjoying the path more because I control my time. I control what I do for work. I'm comfortable. I'm happy. This to me is the benefits of financial independence, the freedom without all the money needed, which is where I want people to get to.

3:30Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I think really people like us have helped push the definition of fire and financial independence from that old mindset, that really limiting, this is just like you said, maybe I could stand it. I could hold my nose and just like wish away the next seven years, right? To now you're living a life that you actually want to live into. And like, that's a sea change. If you think about it, Jamila, right? Like that's a massive change from seven years ago. And what was the prevailing thought in the financial independence community? Right. And I think if we're not careful, which is where I started to get to was that, you know, how we look at people who are only working to retirement so that they can enjoy the last couple of years of their life and they're wasting away really what they could be doing and this life they want to live.

4:18I think the same thing can happen in the FIRE journey if you're not careful, because even though it's a shorter timeline, it's not you're waiting until maybe 60 or the traditional retirement age, you still might be putting off living your life and enjoying your life for five or seven or 10 years, which is similar to the same thing you are trying to avoid. And so the goal to me on the journey is to enjoy it and to find a sustainable path to where depending on the phase of life you're in, the season you're in, your responsibilities, you may choose to hold off on the pleasures of life and discretionary spending.

4:52And in some ways you want to maybe indulge in that. And how does that impact your journey? And is it worth it? Is all the things that I've been exploring and exploring the book. Yeah, so find that sustainable path. I think my ears perked up at that. I'm sure a lot of people listening, their ears perked up as well, because isn't that the real rub of all this, right? Like, isn't that the hard part is how do I find that sustainable path? Because I think a lot of people find FI, they get so excited about it, Jamila, right? Like, because this is a superpower. It's life-changing. Like, nobody is denying that.

5:28This is a superpower in life. It's just plain and simple is. But you can get over-exuberant, right? Like, okay, how do you find that sustainable path? All right. So depending on where you are in the stages of reaching financial independence, I do think it is necessary at some points to be more intense. And I think being in discomfort. So when I first discovered the movement, I was in this long commute. I was in a job I didn't love. I just had one kid at that point. And I was so motivated to get out of that situation. So I saved and invest. So that was the couple of years that as a family, we saved and invest$169 ,000 into our various retirement accounts and taxable accounts.

6:11And as I kept going on the path, I realized, wait a second, there are some trade-offs that I'm making here that are not sustainable. And I want to also live my life and spend more money in a way that serves as a family living in New York City with three kids and a husband who, you know, he's happy to come along with me on this journey, but, you know, he's not into finances where he's reading blogs and listening to things. So for me, that's changed. And I've slowed up on my gas pedal to the intensity of financial independence, but that's because I'm comfortable. And now in this journey or four stage of the five stages.

6:45So depending on where you are, that discomfort and that excitement that you first get when you hear about financial independence may serve you well in the beginning because it can get you out of the earlier journey or stages faster. Meaning if you have to pay off debt or you have to get to stability and just like be able to pay your expenses without going into credit card debt and build these habits, that serves you well to be so excited. And then as you kind of go further along on the path, it might also serve you well. And some people enjoy the intensity and they keep it up, which is fine. But you might find that you say like, this is not sustainable.

7:16I'm not happy. How can I make some changes? And that's where you readjust. And I think it's important just to note that just because you start out one way doesn't mean you can't change your mind or strategies. You can choose what works again, in the season of life that you're in for you. Yeah, I love that. That's so critical. You can change your mind. It's okay, right? Like, just because you set one path and one set of goals doesn't mean you can't readdress it. And Jamila, I think, I don't know what kind of cadence you tell people to maybe go back and look at those goals, look at, like, do an annual review.

7:48I mean, is there some cadence that you recommend people do that? So I think the initial plan that you set for yourself when you find out about this is, you know, typically there's a hopeful wish, like, you know, you want to reach financial independence. I know for me, I said in 10 years or less or in a shorter timeframe. And then I did the math and realized, oh, like in order to reach that, I have to get really intense. So there was this initial plan that I created and tinkered with in a spreadsheet. And then as I started to make changes and saw progress, I would come back to that depending on life events that happened.

8:20So when I was now having my second kid, how would that change how our life would look and that plan? How would that plan change when I had or was pregnant with my third and then made the decision that I'd quit my job? How would that change our pathway to financial independence? So for me, and what I recommend for a lot of people is it can be at a set time, but also just at life events. So for me, it was having kids that allowed me to go back and change or look and reevaluate what this plan initially was. Right. Yeah. That makes perfect sense to me. I like that. And you said a handful of minutes ago, quote, our version of financial independence.

8:59And I'd love if you could compare and contrast like that original, Hey, I'm at this crazy intensity. This is what that version of financial independence look like. And then you said, then it changed what the journey looked like and maybe what today's version of that looks like. So initially, my husband, you know, he wasn't going to quit his job and retire early. He was happy to still work. He's a New York City school teacher. And he said, you know, I would continue to work. But our income and where I was with my income covered most of more than half of the household's income. So me walking away from my job would mean he would work, but we would still need money to help supplement if we wanted to keep up a certain lifestyle that we had.

9:44And so our version of financial independence was, okay, when I made that declaration in seven years, I'd quit my job that I would quit. But if I chose to work again somewhere else or have a business, I'd do that, but I wouldn't have to actively work. We can live off of his income and supplement that with our investments that we had built up over the years. and ultimately I would prefer not to have to touch any investments, but we were flexible with what our lifestyle looked like. And now moving forward, my income now as an entrepreneur covers some of our expenses and then we are still saving and investing towards financial independence.

10:19That timeline has moved out. So my reaching it by 40 years old, I'm currently 40 years old. And so it's interesting because I find that there's a lot of freedom and options and And even this career path that led me to writing the book has afforded me more freedom than I even envisioned when I first started this plan. Because in my head, I didn't know what I wanted to do, which was fine. You don't always have to know what you wanted to do. But it was more of a limited view because I didn't know all these pieces would fall together in this way. And so even though I failed, and I think the title of our original, my episode was about failing forward.

10:54I think it was something about failing forward. And it's funny because I did fail, quote unquote, at my financial independence goal of reaching it at 40. But I think I gained, I know I gained something far more valuable, which is a more sustainable path to financial independence and taking longer, maybe, depending on the numbers and how our lifestyle looks. But being able to enjoy it a lot more because of this time and this freedom that I have and putting work out into the world that I truly love. So my version of it has changed and I feel even more empowered on this journey. And I know we talked about this before we press record, but staying true to the journey for me means not to lose sight of still wanting to reach financial independence.

11:37So that is still the goal. And even though it may take a little longer based on our lifestyle, I still wanna reach that. And I have to remind myself that so that I know my enough points. I know how much I wanna work versus not work so that I can keep adjusting my plan as I move forward. Yeah, it's so fascinating that really we've seen this intermediate timeframe, right? So, okay, seven years ago, you found Fi and said, all right, in seven years, I'm gonna be done or I can be done. And you're at that point. You're at that seven-year point. And like you said, you haven't reached FI, but it sounds like you've reached so much more, right?

12:15Which is actually really cool. Yeah. So the other concepts in the book. So one of the things that I was struggling with, not struggling with, but I know that for some people, especially people who are not as keen to join in on this journey is how it will impact their lifestyle today. So, you know, I'm going to save and invest the majority of my income or as much as possible. But what about enjoying today and the lifestyle that we want? So I have this thing called Guac lifestyle levels, and it relates to how much of a lifestyle or how much you spend. And then that equates to how much you need to reach financial independence.

12:49So technically, and the Guac levels go from one to five, five being the most indulgent and luxurious and you spend a lot and one being the most frugal. And so if we were more at a Guac level one or two lifestyle, we've reached financial independence, technically with our numbers, if we were at that lower level of spending. But that's not sustainable. Again, we live in New York City, Brooklyn. We have three kids. There's nine, seven, and five. And we're just not as frugal in a lot of the areas of our life anymore. And so our guac level is more of a three, four, right? My husband would probably like it to be more of a four, four, five, but we're more around like a three, four.

13:31And so I I think it also depends on just what your lifestyle is, because if we lowered our lifestyle level and how much we spent, we could reach it a lot sooner or we would have reached it already, but we don't want to do that right now. And part of that is if I hated what I did or my husband hated what he did, I think we would lower our lifestyle level so that we can have time and energy back to be with our family. But he enjoys what he does. I currently enjoy what I do. And so it's worth it to work and also delay maybe what this timeframe looks like. Yeah. I really like these guac levels. This is one of the things that I highlighted in the book.

14:08So, you know, I guess in the fi world, we probably would be, okay, guac level one is maybe lean fi. Yeah. Purely level five is fat fi. Maybe even level four might be a fat fi kind of thing. And then, so it sounds like, like you said, you're definitely at a level two at minimum of five. So you more than are at lean fi at this point. So you're well, well, well along your journey, right? I mean, but I just can't imagine living lean fi the way with our preferences and lifestyle right now. Which is great. And that's what's so beautiful about fi, right? Like, is this really is an intensely personal thing.

14:45And yeah, you said something in there, like, I really like what I'm doing now or for now. And I know you said that almost as an aside, and this is not to take away from what you're doing by any means, obviously. But those are maybe the two most critical words, the for now, which is, hey, there might come a day where this just overwhelms me, or I just don't want to be doing this anymore, or fill in whatever blank, and you have options, right? You have so many options in the sense that, like you said, you live in a very high cost of living area. You obviously, by any measure, would be probably guac level four or five if you move to a lower cost of living area.

15:22So it gives you options. And I think that's the nice thing is you don't have to give anything up, right? I mean, you and your family, it's a testament to that. You can live in an ultra high cost of living area. You can live at this fat fi guac level four and enjoy what you do and enjoy your life. And I think that's really important. Yeah. And I think the thing here though, us being able to live at this higher guac level or desiring to reach this in financial independence is a function and privilege of our income. So, you know, there are a lot of components that you need to work on to reach any financial goal or financial independence.

15:57I talk about six of them in the book that comprise the FI formula, which is our income, expenses, assets, liabilities, which are tangible things you can measure, and then habits and mindset, which are more intangible, even though you can kind of measure your habits in a way. But really, you know, each one of them are very important part of the puzzle in working together to get you to your goals, habits and mindset, especially because I think that allows you to enjoy the actual journey that you're on and then make things more sustainable. But really your income, you know, most of the people that I've interviewed who have reached a certain level of freedom or financial independence, part of how they've been able to do that is because of their income.

16:35And even if they chose to spend less, they were able to optimize and use the difference of their income to invest and save towards their goals. And so I just think it's important to note that income is important here because if we weren't earning as much as we were earning or we didn't earn or set ourselves up in our 20s to do what we're doing now, then living at this lifestyle level would be harder because we wouldn't have the foundation in place. We wouldn't have the income to be able to do it. So I think that's just important to note, especially I just know that people are listening at different income levels and income and having enough of it to do all its jobs because it has a lot of jobs to do.

17:12It's a privilege and something that a lot of people need to work on if they do want to live that higher lifestyle level. Yeah, I hear you. And I think this is yet another thing that has really changed to a large degree in the financial independence world in that I think for a very long time, it was always, like you said, essentially there's two sides of the equation, right? There's the income side, there's the expense side. And I think we only focused or mainly focused on lowering expenses. And I think that leads to a negative mindset. It leads to a deprivation mindset potentially of cut, cut, cut, optimize, optimize, optimize, right?

17:47And that's all there is. And that said, I think being smart with your spending is important. And I will essentially go to my grave with that. And I think that's probably the low-hanging fruit of, hey, you just found fi or you just found personal finance and maybe you're in the red every single month. Like I think the easiest way for most people is still to change things on the expense side. But to your point, you cannot, you cannot just ignore the income earning side. And there are ways to optimize that. There are ways to negotiate your salary. There are all these different things. And I'm curious, like, so someone comes to you, they just started listening to journey to launch.

18:28They just read your book, and maybe they're that person who is either living paycheck to paycheck, essentially. What are the first couple of steps you would tell them to get on a better financial path like in the here and the now, the next six to 12 months? Yeah. So I would tell them, let's evaluate to see where you currently are because of those components. A lot of them, they're measurable, the four of them, and then you can still assess your mindset and habits. So my question is, do you have a true income problem? Do you have a true expenses problem? Do you have a mindset problem, habits problem, or a combination of something of those or all, which is fine.

19:07I think most of us have one or all of them at some point on the journey. And because sometimes they don't know, you have to look at the numbers, you have to look at and assess your lifestyle. And so assessing the numbers means really taking and look at what your income is and what you're spending. And there are some people who do not earn enough, like they are at the cusp and they're not earning enough to take care of basic needs. Even if they might be indulging in spending in other areas, they're not earning enough and not making a real livable wage. And they have demands on their income because maybe they're taking care of family, they have daycare, they have life.

19:42And so yes, they can still optimize their expenses, but if they're already doing that, then it's most likely an income issue that they need to work on. And then there are some people when they take a true look at their income and expenses, they are earning a good amount of money, but it's like a bucket with a leak in it. It's just not being optimized. Their income is not even being optimized to help get to their goals. And so that is just a true maybe expense problem that they need to and then can leapfrog their way up the journey or stages or through financial independence quicker than that person who needs to spend some time working on their income.

20:14So I think it's really a matter of assessing and being honest with what the issue is. And then also looking at your mindset and habits around those issues, because while a lot of things are outside of our control and there's systemic issues and things that need to be changed, you know, in government and in economics, some things are within our control. A lot of things are within our control. And so what is that? What is our mindset? What are our habits? And are those impacting how we earn and how we spend? Because then that also helps us to make different decisions around those things. Yeah. Yeah.

20:48I love how mindset and habits come into this. And of those six items you list, those essential components, right? Like, okay, income expenses, liabilities, assets, those make sense. I think those are obvious to everybody. But yeah, mindset and habits, I mean, I would argue once you have just the bare bones of your finances down, 80 % to 90 % of winning at this game comes down to mindset and habits. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, it's the fuel booster. It's the intangible. I'd say it's like the exponent of the formula. You can income minus expenses gives you hopefully money left over, but adding habits and your mindset as the exponent that takes it to the next power, it allows everything you do to go to the next power.

21:32Because I find that people who do have, even if they don't have the tangible yet, so they are not making as much as they like, or they're working on their expenses. So things are not perfect on that, but they have the drive or the will and the knowledge to try and to keep trying, even if things may not be working in their favor, that they have more chances of making it through and making it further than the person who, yeah, I'm earning good money, but I don't have the mindset and habits around helping to use that money to get me somewhere. I really think it's something that needs to be talked about more.

22:05And I know that people are talking about mindset and habits more in this space, but it's so important because we just automatically want to get to doing like, I want to make more, I want to spend less. Let's just do it. And I think a lot of us know what we should do. You can Google how to budget. You can Google what you should say in an interview. I think we know these things and it's free information for the most part that's out there. It's why aren't we doing it? And I think if we can get to that and whatever blocks or therapy needed or just practices needed to help us with that, I think that goes a long way, a longer way than we think.

22:36Yeah, agreed. And you talked a couple of minutes ago about really essentially changing the locus of control, as we call it. So a lot of people like to externalize that, like, oh, they, they are impacting me, right? They, the government, they, the whomever. And that's clearly the caveat being there obviously are major issues in this world. I'm not trying to gloss over that. There are things that are deep seated and have been around for decades, hundreds of years, et cetera. That said, I think what you were alluding to was an empowering mindset that you can do on a micro level, right? Which is, hey, I can exert some control over my life.

23:18I can make positive changes that impact me and my family, right? And I think that's what being on the path to FI, maybe that's to me, the number one benefit that I'm not in a state of fight or flight anymore. I have financial assets that if something happened, right, if I got in a car accident or something happened to my house or fill in the blank, I have financial assets that it's not a catastrophe. And I think when people can just get that stability, Jamila, and it's not, and you talked about this in the book, certainly, of like where you are, financial freedom versus financial independence.

24:00Like you don't have to be at a point of financial independence to have power from your money. And I'd love for you to talk about that. Yeah. So I think financial independence in its truest form and reaching it is a very audacious, big goal and a very privileged one to, you know, go on. And, you know, when I say privilege, it doesn't always have to be a negative thing that people are just It's like, oh, I don't have privilege. You know, like everyone has a level of privilege. I have a level of privilege being that I was able to be raised here versus some of my siblings who had to stay in Jamaica.