485 | Mailbag: Spending Down to Zero, High Fee 401k, Mini Retirements | Rachael Camp

25:24Do I need to alter it? Or can I not spend it at all? So best case scenario, the market is close to market highs, you get to spend the full 50 ,000 of discretionary. Now let's say the market is greater than 10%, but less than 20 % away from S &P 500 highs. Now we're in correction territory. And his recommendation here, or based off the numbers they ran, is that we cut discretionary expenses in half if we're in correction territory. So instead of spending the full 50 ,000, now you can only spend$25 ,000 for the coming year. So you still have your$50K of fixed expenses that you can spend. And now you have to cut discretionary by half to$25 ,000.

26:07Now the worst case scenario is if we are in a bear market territory and we are greater than 20 % away from S &P 500 highs. This is when we're in a bad market, huge down market. We have to cut our discretionary expenses to zero. So now you're only spending$50 ,000. So you can imagine the negatives, the pullbacks of this. If we were spending$100K last year and now have to spend$50K, that's difficult. So one thing, if anybody were to look into this strategy and really implement it, I would always say, be really careful on what you consider discretionary expenses. Maybe don't go 50%, but maybe even if you calculated at 50%, maybe do 20 or 30 to give yourself more cushion because to go from a hundred thousand and spending to 50 ,000 is a drastic change.

26:56Oh yeah. But isn't that funny, Rachel? The end result of so many of these is always, oh, but be a little more conservative than the research actually suggests, which is, again, it gets back to Ryan's original question, which is, hey, is there some mathematical way I can calculate this down to I'm sliding into home plate with$0. There really isn't because it's so difficult to know. Obviously, it's impossible to know the returns of the market over the next 30, 40, 50 years. It's not doable. So there's no way we can say in early 2024 that here's the precise calculation to have$0 and not run out of money in the intervening time.

27:41So I think at the end of the day, that's the short, succinct answer. But what's cool is, and you're illustrating here so beautifully, is there are different methods to not just blindly say, all right, I retired on X date and here's my withdrawal forever. I think that's difficult for people to just have that, okay, this is my one number. And regardless of whether that was calculated 30 years in the past or what's happened in the intervening years, I would like to update it. And I think a lot of people would, but they also, Rachel, don't want to over-engineer it. And I think that might be an issue as well.

28:16Yeah. I love that you brought up that point because one of my hesitations, and again, I think what Bill's point with this book was, was the overarching themes of, maybe you should consider spending more, you're probably being too conservative in your estimates, things like that. But the actual logistics behind dying was zero. Well, now we go from being too conservative to the other side, which is where I still think it's an obsession we don't need to have. So now there's people out there that want to optimize their money as much as possible. And I've kind of personally gone through this phase of I am fine with not optimizing every aspect of my life.

28:55I understand that maybe there are hours I worked or years I worked that I'll never spend that money, but I've come to grips with that and I'm comfortable with that because I still believe on the other end of the spectrum, which is you should spend all the money and make sure you maximize all of your hours that you've worked. It's still kind of an unhealthy relationship with money. And I still think it's giving money a little too much power. I totally recognize that I might not optimize every dollar while I'm alive. And I've just come to accept that and be fine with that. So I think it's always a balance.

29:28And that's why when I'm thinking through these strategies, is still err on the side of caution and understand that we can't run this scenario perfectly. There's way too many variables we don't know. We don't know when we're going to die. We don't know inflation. We don't know rate of returns. There's just no way to do it. So I've just accepted and become really comfortable with the fact that I am fine if I leave this world and things were not perfectly optimized from a financial standpoint. Well, that is, I think, the perfect way to leave this. And really, it does become a psychological exercise to as much as it is numbers on a page.

30:04And I think the thing that I'm leaving with most, especially from what you just said, and the entirety of it was wonderful, but just that those percentage chances of dying with double or more of my money, which suggests to me, okay, I don't have a brand new safe withdrawal rate. I'm not all of a sudden magically making it 7 % because I think that's obviously going to greater my likelihood of having not only double or even the same amount of money, but hopefully not zero, right? But what I'm leaving with that is saying, all right, maybe my natural tendency is to not increase my spending. But I have some more latitude now.

30:43I have some more latitude in my 40s and 50s. And especially as long as I'm keeping up to date with what's going on with the market. Is it roughly normal-ish conditions? Are there... I mean, you will know if you're in a 10-year down market, right? And then obviously you have to make adjustments. So I think this is a holistic answer. And I think you just did a marvelous job in that, Rachel. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Told you it would take a little longer on that one. Yeah. Yeah. But man, that was worth it. I think people are really going to enjoy this. Thanks for listening to Chooseify and for all your support of our mission here.

31:18The absolute best way to support Chooseify is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards page at chooseabout.com slash cards. I keep this page constantly updated, so it should always be the top resource for you. Thanks for being part of our community and for your support. So let's move on to the next question. This one came in from Nicole. She said, hi guys, I just started listening to your podcast. I'm a 42 year old single mom and new to investing and saving and FI in general. I currently contribute to my employer 401k and I'm in a position where I can max it out. But from what I can tell, the fees are just too high.

31:55Is it still a smart move to invest over my employer match into the account? Or how else can I invest that money pre-tax into an investment or retirement account? I don't have an HSA available to me. Thanks so much for your time. I'm excited I found your podcast. So, all right, Nicole, thank you. Welcome to the community. This is awesome. And I suspect this is a question that a lot of people have. So Rachel, ultimately succinctly here, it's we have 401k. The options aren't that great. There's high fee options for the investments. And for most people, what that means is when you look at that page of your investment options and you look at the column that probably says expense ratio, if you don't see something that says 0.0 something or 0.1, we're looking for low fees under like 0.2 % in an ideal world.

32:39A lot of companies have total stock market funds or S &P funds that have 0.03%, 300ths of a percent. So if you look at that list and see 0.5%, 1%, something like that, Rachel, how do you approach that? Yeah. And I'll talk about this on how to view it and thinking about it as a guideline. So of course, I don't know quite enough about this listener to give her a very good answer, but I can kind of give a framework for how to think about this. So first off, I love to hear that she's looking into pre-tax options. I think Roth options get all the attention, especially in our community. And I have a lot of clients that they come to me and I see everything is in Roth and they're continuing to put everything in Roth, but they are in a really high tax bracket and probably in their peak earning years.

33:27So I do think it's great, but it depends on the person to be considering pre-tax options when you're in your peak earning years. And I think that's one variable here that's really missing because the pre-tax accounts are more valuable depending on if you're in that higher tax bracket. So what you can do is actually look at and compare the fees to the tax savings from contributing to that account. So I'm a huge fan of paying attention to taxes. We think about returns, we think about all these things, but one of the variables that we can actually have some control roll over and can calculate to some level of accuracy is taxes.

34:09So if we were to look at this and say, okay, here are the fees that I'm paying. And again, I don't know exactly what the fees are for her. It could be half a percent. It could be one and a half percent. It's a wide range. And of course, the higher the fee is, the more of an impact that is going to have. You can compare that fee to, okay, but what are the tax savings I'm getting from this account? Because she mentioned she doesn't have access to an HSA. And that's another great option for pre-tax account. So if you did have access to an HSA, you had high fees in your 401k, I might say, okay, look at getting the match, then maybe look at an HSA.

34:42And then you have a deductible IRA contribution, which already most people can't do because the phase-out, income phase-outs for that start pretty early on in the income. So there's not too many options. If you are a traditional employee, you have that pre-tax 401k, you don't have access to an HSA. But one of the very first things I would look at is what is the tax impact for putting money contributing to this 401k and how does that compare to the fees? And then of course, I always don't think enough people do this, but this is something I always tell clients. And it really depends on the size of your company and maybe what level or what role you're in, but maybe advocate for changing your 401k.

35:28Sometimes I will write out an email that my client can just copy and paste and send to their HR and say, hey, I'm really interested in putting more money away into my retirement, but I'm not happy with the fees here or the options that we have. Is there any way we can look into some other options and maybe try to bring the fees down? I've had some really pleasant experiences where this is actually has had an impact. So I always encourage people to, why not try that option? The worst thing that can happen is they respond and say, no, we can't change the 401k plan. I love that. I know I've gotten a ton of listener emails over the years.

36:03It's amazing when you have empowered people who now have the financial knowledge that frankly, most people in your HR department don't have, and that's no slight on HR departments, certainly. It's most people don't have. And if you show up and say, hey, here's the net worth impact on making this decision for every single employee at our company. Like this is the biggest raise you could ever give people, even if it's unbeknownst to them. Like I suspect a lot of well-meaning people are going to move to try to get those lower fee options. So yeah, that's really cool. And I love that you focused also on pre-tax buckets because I think, I think a lot of people in, like you said, kind of the greater personal finance world focus on Roth, but we in the FI community look at the pre-tax buckets because it's, hey, I'm controlling my tax rate now.

36:53I'm getting a tax deduction now. And for a lot of people in the FI community, there are some pretty advanced strategies to potentially get your money out down the road using, let's say, a Roth IRA conversion ladder, which Rachel, way back when in episodes 17R and 163R, we have two case studies on that to talk people through it. It's outside the scope of what we're doing here right now, but there is a potential that if you get to a retire early figure where you're earning very little income, where you can get the vast majority of your regular 401k or regular, ultimately your traditional IRA, that money out tax-free or pretty darn close to tax-free, which is extraordinary.

37:33And I think that's one of the superpowers of the FI community. So yeah, I mean, I focus on these pre-tax buckets if I can. So, okay, right. This is ultimately, we're in a situation where they have an employer match, I guess we didn't touch on that, right? Is regardless of fees, do you have blanket advice for employer match? Always get the employer match. I mean, it is a, for most people... It's just awful, right? Yeah. We teed it right up. That's an easy one. Yeah. It's 100%. For most people, 100 % return on your money if they match it dollar for dollar. That's not a return. You're going to find anywhere else.

38:13And there is kind of like an obsession over fees sometimes. And we don't think about the other variables in the equation. Okay, but sure, the fees might be high. But if I'm getting 100 % return on my money, that's going to be any fees there are. There's nowhere else I can go that will give me a guaranteed 100 % return on my money. Yeah, that is an absolute slam dunk in my perspective as well. And so two other factors is like you said that your current marginal tax bracket has got to be factored in here. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. But the second piece would be, okay, yeah, the fees are significant now, but many people are really not staying at jobs forever.

38:55And it's not like you're locking in those fees for 50 years. When you separate from that company, you're able to roll out that 401k into a traditional IRA that you control at an investment firm of your choice at that point. So this is a little dicier, Rachel, I'm hesitant to say, but I think it's something to keep in mind in the sense that like, yeah, there's a real high likelihood you're not going to be at that job for 30 years. So you're not stuck with those fees. So to forego, let's say you were in a super high marginal tax bracket, to forego that tax deduction now for fees that might only impact you for a couple of years, I think there's some give and take here.

39:35Yeah, that is a great point. I'm so happy you brought that up because we also have to remember that there are contribution limits to these accounts every year. We don't get to go back and make up for those contributions that we missed in previous years. So I do think there is a weighting we have to think about here on, well, this, I can't put in 22 ,500 or whatever amount it is every single year forever. So it might be an opportunity that I don't want to pass up. So let's go ahead and put that money in. And it does get to grow tax deferred. Again, another tax savings that we have to think about in the future when we're thinking about this compared to fees.

40:16But it's such a great point because once you leave your employer or if you reach a certain age and your employer allows for it, you can roll these over to an IRA or you can choose a low cost custodian. Now you can move all of your investments into low cost investments with no tax impact. So it is worth thinking about the missed opportunity of what if I don't contribute to this account, this really valuable account, I can never go back and make up those missed contributions. Yeah, that's a really good point. So I guess just finally, before we move on, is there just like a back of the envelope marginal tax bracket that you consider for, there's always that age old, like we said, the Roth versus traditional, this is not financial advice to any person or anyone specifically, obviously, but even just back of the envelope, if you're in the 12 % marginal bracket, where do you come down?

41:10If you're in the 22 or 24, whatever it is, how do you think about that? If somebody gave you 30 seconds to answer that? Yeah, it's hard. I'll try to answer it quickly. Really hard. Yeah. And I take it person by person because somebody's peak earning years might be in the mid 20 % tax rate. Somebody's peak earning years might be 37%. So I do like to think about it for that person? And okay, do I think at this age, maybe in late 30s, early 40s, mid 40s, whatever it is, am I probably in my peak earning years? And is this a time where I should defer taxes? Yes. So I prefer to think about it in that way rather than give a, if you're in the 12%, always wrong.

41:51You should do this. I was trying to lower the pressure with the 30 second thing there, not the, uh, it wasn't holding you, but you gave a perfect answer there. So it depends ultimately. And I think that's, that's the short answer to most of these questions, but I think we're giving like a toolbox for how to think through these issues. So, all right, let's move on to the third question now. So this next question comes in from Andy and I'm going to paraphrase here because he gave just an incredible amount of information, but I think at its heart, he's talking about potentially going on a mini retirement or sabbatical.

42:25And he gave us some financial information. And he's curious if he's crazy for doing this. So I'm going to read here specifically just to give everybody a flavor. So he has no student loans. He's about$70 ,000 spread across some retirement and HSA buckets, no debt. And he's early on in his accumulation phase. And ultimately he's saying, I plan to move abroad for 12 to 24 months on a work holiday visa early next year. I have$20 ,000 on my emergency fund,$15 ,000 in cash separately saved for these travels, I would be quitting my current job in the US. I work in software and I would do some odd jobs between my travels while abroad.

43:03And my question to you is, am I crazy for doing this? I've been inspired by your episodes that discuss many retirements and I've been planning this for the past five months. Basically, I'm just hoping for some reassurance that this won't completely derail my fly endeavors. So yeah, I mean, Rachel, this is a really good one. Where do you launch off with this? Well, first I want to say I just love this community because we are constantly challenging the ideas behind traditional retirement. So first it was, what if I want to retire at 40 instead of 65? And now it's, what if I want to do a mini retirement now and go back to work?

43:36So I love it. I love that we're thinking about all the different ways that we can do this. As far as him and his specifics, of course, again, it's hard to say. $20 ,000 in an emergency fund and$15 ,000 in cash might sound too low for some people, but I don't know how he's spending. Or again, he mentions a strategy for creating income when he goes abroad. So that alone is a little bit hard to say, but I will say the great thing about a mini retirement or sabbatical is that the math is really easy, right? So in the beginning of this episode, we were going through all these withdrawal strategies and we were thinking about a portfolio that has to survive a 30 to 45 year time horizon.

44:14Now, when we're dealing with mini retirements and we're talking about six months or a year or two years, the math is easy and we don't have to run these crazy Monte Carlo simulations and see the percentage chance of success. It's essentially save up the cash that you need, your living expenses that you need, and keep it in cash. We don't want to invest this money because we're going to need it within the next six months to 48 months or however long it might be. So that's the good news is that the math and the saving and the strategy there for a mini retirement is really simple. Now, as far as is this going to derail and throw off all the progress I've made, again, can't say for sure the impact that it's going to have other than to say it probably will have some sort of impact.

45:02Could be negative, might even be positive depending on what you do during that sabbatical. So if you're just going, you're in your career, you take a year or two years off, you're not saving during that time, and you go back to work, you go back and you're making the same income you were before. Yeah, that's going to throw off your freedom number, your freedom age, maybe by a year, maybe by two years, it will have some impact if we were to look at it in a vacuum like that. But then there's a lot of research behind sabbaticals or behind mini retirements to show that it could actually be positive to your career.

45:40If you use it as a time to think about maybe a career shift or even to start a side hustle, again, though, I want to emphasize if you want to relax and take a break, that's what you should do. Not everything should be around work. But for a lot of people who have done this, they've actually, when they've returned to work full time, they've actually found it's had a positive impact on their income. Now they can save more and it might have positively impact their financial freedom endeavors. So it's hard to say if we were to look at it in a vacuum, yeah, it might knock a year off or two years off of your financial freedom goals.

46:17But I also want to encourage everybody that we don't have to look at every decision solely based in the numbers and what impact it will have on your net worth. Sometimes we can think about what if in 20, 30 years, I can no longer take that backpacking trip to Southeast Asia. What if, you know, 20 years, my children are fully grown and I don't get to make up this time. This is the only time I can spend with them while they're young. There's other factors to consider here. And you may look at the numbers and say, this looks like it's going to have a negative impact to my financial freedom goals, but that's okay because that's not the only variable I'm considering.

46:56Yeah. Yeah. And I love how this ties into the first question where we talked about dying with zero, right? And I think Bill Perkins would say that, hey, that one to two years, if you're talking, okay, I've pre-funded this essentially. So Andy has$15 ,000 set aside. He's going to be doing some odds and ends. And sure,$15 ,000 isn't going to pay necessarily for the entire one to two years, but it sounds like he's got a good portion of this covered. I know our good friends, Christine Bryce from millennial revolution have talked about like just how inexpensive it can be to travel for a year. I mean, I think if I remember correctly, their number was somewhere in the vicinity of like $25 ,000 for the two of them.

47:39So it's really doable. And then yeah, going back to die with zero is would you trade those two years of, okay, yeah, you might have to work two extra years in the backside, but you just got these two years traveling the world that you could never, ever replace that. And Andy doesn't say precisely how old he is, but let's say in your twenties or thirties, you're not going to replace that in your seventies. You're just not, you're just simply not. So I think that's important. Another thing, I just have all these random thoughts in hearing this, like he works in software. Is it possible in this new day and age of working remotely, have you considered getting a software job that you could work one day a week?

48:16And then this whole thing become, maybe it doesn't set you back at all, right? Like maybe if your life only costs $25 ,000 a year and you're making even a fifth of a software salary, you might actually be able to save money along the way. So again, just a random thought. Our good friend Jillian Johnsrud has a new website called retireoften.com and she has a podcast of the same name where she talks very explicitly about mini retirement. So I think I would send Andy there. I would send anybody who's thinking about a mini retirement generally. And Jillian was on the show late last year where we talked about mini retirements.

48:51It was episode 451. And she actually said, like you said, Rachel, you never know. Sometimes this could actually accelerate your path to five. That was actually the title of the episode, many retirements to accelerate your path to five. So Jillian has some interesting, interesting thoughts on that. So yeah, I mean, this is a good one from Andy, right? It's like, yeah, in a vacuum, is this going to quote unquote, set you back? I mean, yeah, I guess by the technical definition, but oh goodness, to have a year or two to travel the world, like that sounds like a pretty good trade to me. Same here. Yeah.

49:24When I think about my life and the way that I want to live it. I do my best to try to minimize regrets. And I think if most of us were to look at our life at a whole and think, at the end of my life, do I see myself regretting that one to two years that I took off to travel the world? I can't imagine any of us would really regret it, especially, yeah, no, no chance. No one is going to say, and I wish I would have just worked through those two years. Now I could have 3 million instead of$2 million. dollars. You know, there's other variables. There's other factors that should go into your decision-making outside of just the numbers, your career and what you do for money.

50:03Here, here. Couldn't agree more. So Andy, we're, uh, we're giving you our, with the information we have, we're giving you our blessing. That sounds absolutely wonderful and enjoy and let us know. Definitely get back to it. So yeah, indeed. That sounds amazing. All right, Rachel, we're going to do, uh, the last question here. I'm going to paraphrase Devin's question, which was a great one. So he is contemplating a Roth IRA contribution here in the new year. And he's concerned that his income is going to actually go over the phase-out limit. And I guess he wants to make the contribution early in the year, but then is worried about, hey, what happens if I'm over this phase-out limit?

50:41What do I do then? So Rachel, how does someone like Devin here consider this? They want to make a Roth IRA contribution or really a retirement contribution, but they're worried about the limits and worried about going over them. What do they do? Yeah. I can answer this pretty easily because I have been in this exact situation before personally. Yeah. So a Roth is an account that I contribute to every year. And it got to the point where I was worried that I was on the cusp of being phased out of directly contributing to the Roth. So what I did is it's very simple. I just did the backdoor Roth IRA.

51:15Some people are concerned that maybe there's some downside to doing the backdoor rather than directly contributing to the Roth. And just to give you guys a quick explanation here of the backdoor Roth, that's when you make a non-deductible IRA contribution and then you convert it to the Roth. So it's a legal loophole for a way for higher earners to get around the phase out limits. So what I decided to do is just not overthink it, do the backdoor Roth, as long as you make sure that you can avoid the pro rata rule, which makes sure that you have$0 in traditional IRAs, SEP IRAs, any type of IRA, those need to be cleared out in order for you to do this in a clean way where you're not going to be double taxed.

52:01So that's what I did. And to be honest, as long as you don't have money in the traditional IRA, I don't see any downside to it other than it's an extra step. It's going to take you a little bit more time to do the backdoor Roth rather than just directly contribute to the Roth. I will say I've had people worried about the five-year rule and think that the backdoor Roth is inferior to directly contributing to the Roth IRA because of the five-year rule. The five-year rule states that on conversions, you have to wait five years in order to pull those out. So Brad, you mentioned the Roth conversion ladder earlier.

52:39There's that strategy where you convert money that you're going to spend in five years down the road so you can get into it penalty-free. What most people don't know is that this doesn't apply when we're talking about the backdoor Roth IRA because the five-year rule only applies if it is a taxable conversion. So when we're doing a non-deductible IRA contribution, you're choosing to not deduct that money on your taxes and you're converting it over to the Roth. So that conversion is actually not taxable. And the IRS has issued guidance on this and has confirmed that and said, the five-year rule does not apply to these types of conversions.

53:15So hopefully that's not too in the weeds. I can just hear people saying, but what about the five-year rule? It can make it inferior to a direct Roth contribution. But even that isn't the case. So if I were close, and like I said, I've done this personally, I was close. And he makes a good point of, I don't want to wait a whole year, potentially give up earnings, that's what I would do. Just do the backdoor Roth as long as you avoid the pro-rata rule. Wow. Okay. I love the advanced strategy. That's really great. And do we have the actual... So what if he didn't listen, just chooses to ignore your advice here, and he actually directly contributed to the Roth IRA and then finds towards the end of the year, hey, I'm over that phase out.

53:58What do you do then? I meant to bring that up in my original point, but that is... It's a headache to have to go through and pull out those Roth. And I've done this before. I know it because I've done it before for a client. They contributed to the Roth. They thought they were going to be under the phase out limits. Then they got a huge bonus at the end of the year, pushed them over the limits. Now they need to take out the money they put into the Roth and you have to calculate, okay, so they already had money in the Roth. So what amount of earnings is attributable to that contribution? And you have to, yeah, you have to take that out as well.

54:28There's an IRS calculator that you have to use. That's why if it takes an extra step now, to me, it is worth it to avoid the headache of having to take out those excess Roth contributions, calculate the earnings on those contributions. And then of course, if you forget about it, you risk penalty, you risk all kind of crazy things that just aren't fun to go through. So in my head, I'm thinking, let's avoid that scenario completely and just do the backdoor Roth. Okay. That is critical information. So right, it's not just like there's an easy undo button. I want to pull this out. You can undo it, but it's not easy at all.

55:05Okay, so that leads us to believe, yeah, you want to be really cautious with this. Now, again, he doesn't want to forego the earnings, which is why he wants to put it in in January or February. But realistically, you have until, is it when you file your tax return the following year? Or is it April 15th? Or if you extend it, do you get the extended? And I guess in essence, you have all the way until at minimum April 15th of the following year to put that money in. So once you've calculated what your modified adjusted gross income is, right? Yeah. So you could wait and just see what the final numbers are and do it then.

55:43The only caveat is if you do end up having to do a backdoor Roth, it is slightly cleaner to make the non-deductible IRA contribution and do the conversion in the current year rather than wait. And again, I've been through all of this. You've been there. I've been there. I have done it where I did the contribution and the conversion and different years. It is certainly possible. It's just slightly cleaner to do it within the same year. I always prefer to do it within the same year. So again, just in my head, it's an argument for just do the backdoor Roth. Okay. Well, you sold me. That makes a lot of sense.

56:15So yeah, I'm really glad we talked through that. And man, we just bombed through four questions. And I think this is a really, really useful episode. I think both the nuts and bolts, like you just talked through on the, on this last question. So interesting to like, I didn't even know that, like, I would not have considered that. Okay. Doing the non-deductible Roth and then the backdoor that that's actually better in the current calendar year. So like the interaction of how that works with a regular, oh, but you have until April 15th of the next year. So with again, the behavioral, the die was zero, the, how do we think about our money?

56:50So this really covered everything. Thank you so much for being here round two and hopefully of many in the future. Where can people reach out to you? Yeah. Thank you, Brad. I had so much fun answering these questions with you today. So Twitter is where I am most active or X, whatever you call it. Camp underscore wealth. Yeah. Camp underscore wealth on Twitter at camp wealth on Instagram. And then my website is rachelcampwealth.com. Nice. Awesome. And we will certainly have the links in the show notes. That's the easiest way. Just click on through. and until next time, Rachel, thanks again. Thank you.

57:24Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the Chooseify community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player and just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to chooseify.com slash subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there. And I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox.

58:01So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in-real-life community, we have Chooseify local groups in 300-plus cities all around the world. So head to chooseify.com slash local and you'll find a list of all of those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with FI or you have a family member or a friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways. Choose a FI episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community. And even though it's a couple of years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence?

58:43What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life? And then Choose a Vi created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free. Just head to choosefi.com slash fi101. And again, thanks for listening.