609 | How to Talk to Your Partner about FI | Jasper Lee

24:59what would your life look like what would that day be like i like that it's interesting jessica

25:06Jonathan Mendonsa:because something i've started thrown around and especially on my newsletter is i'm calling it the tuesday project and it's not designing some fancy trip or i'm gonna scuba dive the great barrier reef or even climb Mount Fuji, which we've talked about. But what does a perfect Tuesday look like? Because I think life is built around just really great Tuesdays or really great Thursdays. Pick a day, I'm picking Tuesday. But it's an interesting exercise in both imagination but iteration as well, I've found. And that's gonna change. That's always gonna change. And I think that's a fun part of life and FI is what I think I want 10 years from now could change a month from now or a year from now or nine years from now, right?

25:54Jonathan Mendonsa:Like, or it could be exactly the same. And I think that to me is this constant iteration of getting closer and closer to the things that you want and you desire in just like a day, a single day. So is there an exercise that, and I love that question, that framing, like how would you know? I'm probably jumping years ahead at this point, but like as part of this start with values and this North Star, like would that be a useful exercise to try to think about that perfect day? or is that just way ahead of the game at that point? Yeah, that's what this question is asking you to do. Think about a regular day where you don't have worry about money or you're not stressed about work.

26:34What does that day look like? There are like a million different values, worksheets, lists of values online. You and your partner print two out, go to separate parts of your house and circle them and come back. And like, what do you have overlap on? Like, if you both select family, great. What does that mean to you both? What does that look like? How do you want to live your life that's more related to having the values of being a good family member? If you said there were a couple of questions and that was the first one. Yeah, that's my favorite one. So I led with that. But what would it look like if we had more control over our time together?

27:14What's something we've kept saying we'll do when things slow down, but we never have done? And these are other ways to kind of get at values and also behaviors that you want to be engaging in by keep putting off for some reason. All right. I love that. Yeah. If we have a list of those questions or I suspect we'll get into this in a bit, but maybe that's something we could add. Either you could send people to a particular resource or we could put in the show notes. Yeah, I'm happy to send something for the show notes, of course.

27:44Jonathan Mendonsa:OK, where do we go from here? I think the next step is to figure out how you actually get into this conversation. How do you start talking about values with your partner? And there's a specific communication approach that I really like. Nice. Okay. Before you get into that, I think the nuts and bolts of this are so important because there are a lot of people out there who struggle with this. So how would you even start? Okay. I'm the person who has been learning about five for a month or two. I'm really excited. I think this could change our lives. How do you even broach that subject? Like, Hey, I, I've been learning about this new thing or like, I know this is way before the values, but like, how do you even bring it up?

28:26Jonathan Mendonsa:I think a lot of people are going to be afraid to even bring it up for fear of that initial reaction. Sure. That's a great question. Let me give you two opening lines and we'll compare them. One opening line is I've been running numbers on early retirement and let's talk about the math of how we could do this. I found this really great expense audit tool. And in order to reach our goal of$2 million in 10 years, we need to stop going to restaurants. That's so great. Yeah. And then we're opening would be, I've been thinking a lot about what we actually want our lives to look like in 10 years, not just financially, but how do we spend our time?

29:04If you woke up one day and you didn't have to worry about work again, then what would that day be like? That's a great foray into a thought experiment that then leads into, okay, what are our shared values? What are we looking for? And then you can start getting into, I suspect we can move along from there. So, okay. Thank you. Thank you. That's very, very helpful. Or you can say, Hey, I get this newsletter and they asked a really interesting question. What does a perfect Tuesday look like for you? It doesn't have to be about FI or finance or anything. Just open up the question about values. It doesn't have to be high stakes yet.

29:38Jonathan Mendonsa:I like that. And frankly, that kind of conversation is just good for a relationship also. I would suspect it's in the sense that I want to know more about my partner, even if it doesn't go anywhere from there. That's not such a bad conversation. What does a perfect Tuesday look like for you five years from now or even tomorrow? There's nothing wrong with that. At worst, you have just come up with a plan for your next day off. Nice. I want to pull back the curtain on psychology a little bit and tell you kind of like the Wizard of Oz, what we're actually doing a lot of times. But there's this communication approach I use every day with my clients, frankly, in my personal life too.

30:19It's called motivational interviewing. And it's a form of communication that has specific components to it. It's evidence-based. It's developed specifically for helping people find their own reasons for change and say them out loud. The fundamental idea behind motivational interviewing is that people are always more persuaded by arguments they generate themselves than by arguments you present to them. So if we're using this as a framework for communication, your job is not to present them with compelling arguments. It's to have the kinds of conversations where they make their own compelling arguments.

31:07Okay. around a shared goal, which in this case is FI. So there's a lot of different ways to do this, and I'm not trying to overcomplicate things, but one really helpful framework, I think, is when you're having these conversations, to use the skill of elicit, provide, elicit. So first you elicit their perspective, and we're going to do that using open-ended questions. you'll notice all of the questions I asked all started with the word what what does this look like okay could be what how why those are all open-ended questions closed-ended questions are yes no do you like ice cream that's a yes no question what flavor of ice cream do you like is an open-ended question now we're talking more about ice cream so you can get into any conversation more deeply by using an open-ended question.

32:06So we're going to ask their perspective with an open-ended question and then wait for it, actually listen to their response. That's groundbreaking, I know. For a lot of people, that is groundbreaking. Fair enough. We want to open the door with this open-ended question. And then from there, you can provide some information. If I start by providing, you're kind of on your back foot. I want to tell you about FI. I'm not really interested in hearing about that. No, thanks. Okay. That's the end of the conversation. But if I ask you, what does a perfect Tuesday look like? And then you tell me a bunch of things and I say, well, there's actually something I've been reading about that could help us get there more quickly.

32:52And we don't have to work all the time. Do you want to talk about that? And then you can give information. Now we're in a conversation. Now I can give you more information and then I can ask you, what do you think? Right, and they're already emotionally bought in, right? Because they just had this amazing thought exercise of what does their perfect Tuesday look like? Yeah, and then the last illicit is really important too. So then you are helping them solidify that this whole conversation where they've talked about their own reasons for changing or pursuing FI, you ask them, like, what do you think?

33:28They're going to be like, well, this sounds great. Let's do it. Rather than, Brad, stop talking at me about finance. I don't want to hear that. Okay, the second illicit there is really just a simple, what do you think? This is not like a Machiavellian thing, but in essence, they're convincing themselves that this was their idea, right? So you're not stuffing it down someone's throat. They thought about it.

33:52Jonathan Mendonsa:You provided some info and asked, hey, what do you think? And if they at that point say, well, yeah, that sounds great. It's their idea. It's not yours. Yeah, it's at least a shared idea. Sure. But a lot of people, I think, approach these conversations backwards. They try to give all the information up front, but the person you're talking to is just not ready to hear it. And because they're not ready, they don't listen openly and they're going to be defensive. They're going to already think, you know, what's Brad trying to sell me? I'm not buying. But if you bring them into the conversation with this values-based topic first and get them on board of why this is important, well, here's one approach we could explore together to go down this important path.

34:41Do you want to try it? Yeah, I like that. So right. You're not convincing, cajoling, you're advocating,

34:46Jonathan Mendonsa:You're just having a conversation. And again, so elicit, provide elicit. I like that. What's up next after this, Jasmine? Yeah, I'm going to talk about couples therapy for a second and some relationship research. But in this conversation, people are going to tell you what's important to them and what's not important to them and what they're concerned about. And I think it's really important to validate those concerns and what's important to them before you respond. So there's a really famous psychologist, John Gottman, who's like one of the fathers of couples therapy. And they have this thing called the Gottman method.

35:29And they call him the four horsemen of relationship conflict, which is contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, and criticism. And these are patterns that break down the relationship. So if you're having this conversation about FI and your partner's not really into it and you go into like, well, you never listened to any of my ideas. And now we're like down this whole other path. That's like the four horsemen of relationship conflict. So we don't want to do those. And one of the ones that I think is most relevant here is defensiveness, which is what you get when a partner feels that their concern is being dismissed.

36:12So if we're having this conversation about FI and I start talking to you about investing and you start telling me, well, I'm worried about the market. I mean, it's gone up and down a lot recently. I heard it on the news. Are you sure it's a good time and I get defensive because I've done all this research about time in market beats timing the market and all that stuff, that's not going to help us move together towards the shared goal. So we have to sidestep our own defensiveness. And the way to do that is to validate their concern and talk about it openly. Validation is not agreement. You can acknowledge something without agreeing with it, but you have to acknowledge it as a real concern.

36:56That's a barrier for them, whether it's reasonable or not, that's their barrier and you have to validate it and address it.

37:03Jonathan Mendonsa:Okay. Are there specific phrases or scripts that would be an acknowledgement when you are explicitly not agreeing? Yeah. I think you want to say it in a way that is true to you, but saying that makes sense and reflecting back what they just told you. If someone said to me, like, oh, the market's up and down a lot, investing feels kind of risky, I'd rather just keep it in cash. You could either show them the Dow Jones chart since inception from like J.L. Collins' book and, oh, that's not a real concern, don't worry about it, we'll be fine in 20 years. And that kind of steamrolls their concern. Or you can validate and say, yeah, that makes sense.

37:48It does feel risky. And there has been a lot of volatility. What would make you feel better? How do you want to explore that concern? There's a lot of data out there, but what do you need to know? Okay. Another one that I just thought of that I use occasionally in my own life or have used is like, oh, I know exactly what you mean. I used to think that or feel that exact same way too. And then dot, dot, dot, you know, it's like with investing, it's a perfect example. Like mine is always, I know I'm a CPA and I theoretically should know this, but investing scared the heck out of me. I didn't have any idea until I read JL Collins's simple path to wealth.

38:28And it finally clicked for me, you know, something like that. Like, believe me, I've been there. I get it. That's the exact same thing I'm thinking. Of course, you're not, nobody's saying be insincere and make that up. But if that is the case, I've found that to be, it's just a way to connect. Yeah. And you have this expert status, so you can kind of help people understand what the rest of this journey looks like. I've been in your shoes and now I'm over here. If you're both starting out together, I think you can validate, yeah, that makes sense. I kind of feel that way too. Let's look into this and make it a shared project that you explore together and get an answer to together.

39:07And that goes back to the very beginning, the joint ownership. If we're in this together, we're figuring it out.

39:12Jonathan Mendonsa:This is a team. And if it works, it works for us. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. But we're going to do our best to figure it out. I like that. Yeah. So just to tie this all together, I mean, these conversations are hard. We like to avoid hard conversations. But if this is truly a goal for you, you want to get on the path to FI. you want to bring your partner or spouse along with you, you have to open the door for this hard conversation and start to explore values together. Use this elicit, provide elicit framework with open-ended questions and make it a joint goal that you work towards. And one of the ways to really solidify that on an ongoing basis is the money date.

39:58You had a guest on a while ago, and I'm forgetting their name or in the episode, but they talked about the planning party. And I love that framework. Oh, yes. I think that was Andy Hill. I think that might be right. But I love that the term party because it's like a fun thing. It's not like, oh, no, we have to sit down and look at our net worth now. Like it's a fun event that you get to do as a couple or as a family. I call it a money date. But the concept here is that regularly scheduled, low stakes conversations are much easier to get into. So if every month you're talking about finances, you're talking about shared goals, that's a lot easier.

40:44You're prepared. It's on a calendar. You know this is coming than waiting for it to be a problem. And now emotions are high. it's much harder to have an effective communication when you're both high emotions and it's feeling urgent. That makes sense. So this is a planned money date or regularly scheduled on whatever cadence you want. I've definitely, like you, I've heard a lot of people do this monthly, but by no definition does it have to be monthly, of course. No, it could be quarterly. That's when you update your net worth spreadsheets. You want it to be regular. Probably yearly is not enough, but some regular cadence throughout the year will be helpful.

41:25The reason it's helpful is because you both know it's coming and it's not high stakes. Okay. Right. It's not like I'm picturing a meeting, like the emergency meeting, which is the epitome of high stakes. Like, Oh, we have to do this. This is so important. Things are going wrong. And then emotions get high. defensiveness comes in. What am I doing wrong? Are we going to go bankrupt? You know, all of these things start spinning in your head. And it's amazing how our minds go to negativity. I'm currently renting a condo and I'm just thinking this is funny because this is applicable to like that emergency meeting, which is like, you know, he sent a message like, Hey, can we talk dot, dot, dot.

42:07And it's like, no, what's going on?

42:10Jonathan Mendonsa:Are we going to get kicked out? Like my mind goes. And like, frankly, my life would be perfectly fine. You know, if he decides to sell his place, we just moved to another place. It's no big deal. Would it be annoying? Yeah. But like, Jasper, no joke. This happened not a week or two ago. And like, that's where my mind went. So I think whenever this like nebulous, like without explaining and somebody can construe it negatively, I feel like the specificity of like, Hey, I want to talk about X for Y reason or something like that. Or in this case, again, Hey, this is just something we do good, bad, or indifferent.

42:43Jonathan Mendonsa:It's not, there's no implication that something bad's going on. It's just, this is a regularly scheduled money date. This is what we do as a couple. And it's just on the calendar. So I like that. I'm curious, are there any like do's and don'ts? Are there structures that you've found that work? I know you work obviously with people in many of your clients are either in the FI community pursuing FI. So like you've seen this on the ground, like what works, what doesn't work? Yep, I think having an agenda that's set in advance so you both know what you're getting into in the conversation is helpful and you can kind of prepare for it.

43:20Progress on your shared goals, any upcoming big financial decisions that you have to make, anything that's bothering the other person. Don't ambush your partner. This isn't like a moment to be like, Well, and since you said that, now I'm going to bring up this thing from three months ago that bothered me. No, no, no. That's not helpful. Holding grudges does not work. Correct. That's like one of the four horsemen of relationship problems. I think these meetings are better when there's no phones. The TV is not on in the background. This is just like just what you're doing. And one thing I would recommend is no problem solving until both people feel like they're They're on the same page.

44:03Jonathan Mendonsa:Okay. Tell me more about that. Everybody gets their concerns out, their thoughts, their emotions, and then you come together to problem solve. This isn't like a one-sided, like, oh, I'm worried about this. Well, let's figure out the solution to that. Like, we're going to put it all on the table and then we're going to pick which problems we work together on. Okay. So that's a running theme of the episode so far is the emotions come first, always. As a psychologist, yes, that's my opinion. Okay. And yeah, maybe always is a strong word. I realized I set you up there, but that's very good to know.

44:38The emotions are important. And if we don't acknowledge them, we're kind of going to be fighting an uphill battle. And then the last thing is just, this is, as we talked about at the beginning, an emotionally laden topic. And I think it's important to have a stopping rule for the meeting. If you're getting too heated, the conversations kind of verging it on the cusp of becoming an argument and the meeting, reschedule it, come back at another time when you are not as emotionally charged. All right.

45:10Jonathan Mendonsa:That's good to know. I'm curious about, so you mentioned no phones, no screens. My mind goes to location. I'm not sure that it matters necessarily. But do you think there's a higher likelihood of success if you make it like an actual date and you go somewhere specific or like, is there anything to having ritual around this? I think it makes it more fun. Like you're probably less likely to get into a big argument about money if you're at a restaurant. But I will say that it's different for every couple and you may not feel comfortable having this conversation in public and you want to do it in your home.

45:45That's fine. But I think if you can make it somewhat special. That's why I use the term date. Like make it special. Open the nicer bottle of wine or cook something cool or go to a restaurant, whatever it is, but make it something kind of like to commemorate we're doing this now.

46:04Jonathan Mendonsa:Okay. Now that we talked about like the nuts and bolts of that, I'm curious, like ultimately at the end of the day, what if one partner wants to pursue FI? Forget the money days. We're still back on the getting into it. One wants to pursue FI and the other just isn't on board. My mind goes to this is like a significant, potentially irreparable issue, but I don't think irreparable is a bit of a stretch. What are your initial quick hit thoughts on like one partner is just vehemently opposed and one is all in or some combination thereof? Yeah. Well, financial disagreements are the strongest predictor of divorce among all relationship conflict types.

46:50Finances are the number one. So there's something to what you're saying. When you posed this question to me, my first thought was why? Why is the other partner not on board? What do they feel like they're going to be losing out on or missing out on if you pursue FI? Because I think that there's obviously degrees of FI. I think you can maybe pursue it on a longer timeline and have a less aggressive savings rate, but is one partner just like anti-saving completely? I think I have to understand why do they not want to do this? What do they feel like they're being deprived of by saving money? And explore that and really get at if it's a status thing or if it's a friendship thing or whatever it is, you need to understand why so that you can address how to solve that problem together.

47:47okay and yeah i was gonna have a follow-up question about like what if one partner wants to leave their job and the other doesn't but i suspect it's well a of course just like you and i have been explicit about saying fi and not fire because the whole point of the show choose fi we didn't make it choose fire because i think the retire early is so loaded my eyes it's always been

48:10Jonathan Mendonsa:anybody can do anything they want if they want to continue working when you're reached the point of financial independence, that's great. As long as you're doing it from a place of autonomy and strength, as opposed to from need and lack. So yeah, it's probably a bit of a straw man to say like, but what if one wants to leave their job and the other doesn't? But in essence, I guess your answer to any of these questions is ultimately, well, why is there such a vehement disagreement or such a strong mindset, I guess, around something that we're talking about? I don't want to use these like broad terms, but like pursuing FI, it's pretty hard to argue against that in any way, like having more, more autonomy, more control over your life, having financial freedom.

48:56Jonathan Mendonsa:I don't know that there's any necessary, like that I can come up with off the top of my head, any necessary negative to that. So if someone's vehemently opposed to it, like presumably there's some reason or lack of either knowledge and I know how loaded that can be, or they're not emotionally resonating with it. So that's a big word salad for it. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Yeah. Get into this conversation with them. Elicit, provide, elicit. What is stopping you? What is the barrier? What's getting in the way from being on board with this? What are you worried about? What do you feel you're going to miss out?

49:30All those are all open-ended questions. Listen to what they say and then come together to try to solve that. also i think that we get stuck in all or nothing thinking either i'm fine or i'm not fine but that's not true you could start really small for the next year you could each commit to shaving off a hundred dollars from your budget we know you talk all the time about what a hundred dollars a month does but like is your partner completely unwilling to find a hundred dollars a month to save. Like, let's just start there. It doesn't have to be, we need a 50 % savings rate. Yeah. That might be too much, too fast for someone.

50:10Okay. So right. If you're, yeah, just simply not on the same page that portends larger issues, right? If we can just have small goals,

50:19Jonathan Mendonsa:like I always think of it as working as a team and like, man, if we're on the same team, it becomes fun. Like five was always fun for me though. I suspect we're kind of maybe going down all roads lead to what we've been talking about for the last 20 minutes. But I'm curious, does anything else jump off your mind of strongest predictors that couples will successfully pursue FI together? We've talked about a lot of them, but anything else jump to mind? Shared values, shared excitement, making it like a game or something fun that you get to work towards as a couple. And it can actually make your relationship stronger if you have this clearly defined shared goal that you're both working towards.

51:03I feel like this has been a really good deep dive into how to get a spouse or a significant other on board. I know at the outset of the episode, we talked about like four different aspects of relationships that we might dive into. And we spent an hour talking about this really critical one, which I think was well worth it. So parents, kids, and friends are the three other groups and maybe we can do a follow-up episode. I suspect it's going to be really well-received, this one, and people will have follow-up questions just in fact for spouses, significant others. Thoughts on doing a second episode on those three other groups?

51:40Yeah, I would love to do another episode and cover the rest of the important relationships. I think spouses, partners are probably the most important, which is why we led with it. But yeah, I guess I pulled the Jonathan and we set up all these things I wanted to talk about and you and I got into a deep one and just didn't get to the rest. Oh, Jonathan. He came on a couple episodes in early January and we're going to talk about 157 things today. And then we talked about like four and we got some nasty gram emails or comments on the episodes like, come on, guys, don't set it up. But I mean, he's just overly effusive in his excitement and such.

52:22So, yeah, I like the callback to good old Jonathan.

52:24Jonathan Mendonsa:But so let's we'll put a pin in that for sure. But I know you really wanted to leave everybody with some real practical frameworks and takeaways. And I think you've alluded to these certainly over the last hour. But I want to just give you the stage to really explain this and leave people with, OK, here's where you can go. Because, again, choose a buy is all about taking action. So here is when you hit stop on this episode. Here's what you can really take away from this. Yeah, I would love for people to have some big takeaways. So the first one is that you cannot be an emotional concern with a logical argument.

53:03You're just going to hit them over the head with data and it's not going to land well. And what is another way that can be much more effective is to kind of start a conversation where people are finding their own reasons for engaging, their own reasons for why they want to pursue FI, not your reasons, not your data. and there's four main skills here to remember in having these conversations. The first is open-ended questions. These are not yes, no questions. A lot of them start with the word, who, what, where, when, why, those kinds of things. If you were to wake up one day and you didn't have to worry about money or work, how would you know?

53:54That is an open-ended question. you can get into values. The next is affirm the other person's concerns. You don't have to agree with them, but you do have to acknowledge them. The next is to reflect back to the person what you just heard them say. So you're not necessarily providing a summary. You're just reflecting what you think you heard. It sounds like you're most worried about security. Did I get that correct? You're most worried about volatility in the market. Is that right? You are confirming with them that you're actually listening to them and you're also getting information about what you need to talk about next.

54:42And then the last thing is just to summarize the conversation before you move forward. So you want more freedom in your life and also to feel less worried about money. Do you want to talk more about that? Would that be okay? Nice. Open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summarize. Okay. And this is the motivational interviewing that you mentioned earlier. Correct. Yes. And this is something that therapists do all the time. It's a way to have these conversations where you get people to talk about their own goals. Your job is to make them talk more than you. Oh, that's brilliant. So you're not trying to win an argument.

55:26This is not like we're keeping score. I'm assuming that's part of it. I don't know. That's necessarily one of the four horsemen, but it's got to be pretty close. You're just trying to talk and you're trying to ask questions and you're trying to reflect

55:37Jonathan Mendonsa:back and affirm them and understand them and really get to the emotion. Yeah. Yeah, listen to what they tell you. They're going to tell you their own reasons for fi, and they're going to provide their own arguments for why you as a couple should pursue it. Okay, Jasper, that seems eminently doable. Because I think so many people, even with their closest relationships, there's this worry. There's like, is it going to be an argument? Are they going to get defensive? Is this going to go poorly? Am I this thing that I'm super excited about it? Am I just going to get shut down? And it's hard to imagine in a moderately functional relationship that when you lead with this curiosity, when you lead with open-ended why questions, what questions, that anything terrible is going to come out of this.

56:27Jonathan Mendonsa:And not only not anything terrible, but like, I would imagine there's a real high likelihood that you're going to end up closer at the end of this conversation than before. And isn't that what we all want? That's such a beautiful thing. And these very specific ways of approaching this, this is gonna be really helpful for people. So thank you so very much. I really appreciate this. My pleasure. I'm always happy to talk about this. It's hard to mount a defensive response when someone is bringing you in like this. Like it's hard to yell back. It's hard to have an argument if you're just open and curious.

57:04What does a perfect Tuesday look like for you?

57:07Jonathan Mendonsa:I love it. Any final takeaways or thoughts that you want to pass along? Yeah, I think people are pretty good at navigating their own relationships and having these conversations. But if you are having problems or consistently falling into unhelpful communication patterns, that might be a good indication that you want to reach out for some help. And there's many ways to find couples, therapists, or just people to help with these conversations as well. they don't necessarily have to know about PHY. They can just know about communication. I'm also happy to serve as a resource and people can find me on my website, which is jasperleephd.com.

57:51I'm licensed now in 41 states and I work with a lot of people in the Choose FI community who are navigating psychological relational dimensions of PHY. Yeah, that's really wonderful. So it's

58:09jasperleephd.com and we'll have it in the show notes. But yeah, sometimes people are listening to this. That's a pretty easy one to remember. So jasperleephd.com. Jasper, I really appreciate you putting this together.

58:19Jonathan Mendonsa:I think this can help a lot of people, like I've said repeatedly already. Yeah, let's definitely plan that follow-up. And also for everybody listening to this, you can comment on these episodes and both Jasper and I will keep an eye on the comments. So just go Go to choosavet.com slash the episode number. I'm not 100 % sure what episode that's gonna be most likely 608. choosavet.com slash 608. And you can leave comments on the episode, leave questions. You already know we're gonna do a follow-up on this with the other relationships, but we'd love to add further flavor to this or a clarification if you need it.

58:56Jonathan Mendonsa:And also share your wins. If you take something away from this episode that you found really useful and you implemented it in your life, we always want to hear your wins. We always want to. Again, on my newsletter, chooseofit.com slash subscribe. That's one of the things that I put in every week is really six wins that people, we call them the 1 % wins. Like what was that one thing you did this week to make your life better? And yeah, we'd love to hear it. Jasper, thank you again for being here. I really appreciate your time. And for everybody listening, keep listening, take action most importantly, and try to live a wonderful life.

59:29Jonathan Mendonsa:I think that's why we're doing this. It's not about the nuts and bolts of money. It's about pursuing a life you want to live into. And I think an episode like this is really going to help.