Lindsay Clancy Triple-Murder Case Ends in Mistrial

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0:47This is CNN Breaking News. Good evening. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Tonight, the Lindsay Clancy case declared a mistrial due to a deadlocked jury. The stunning outcome capped off 38 hours of deliberations over the last week, and a dramatic day in which Lindsey Clancy's defense attorney filed an emergency request to the Massachusetts Supreme Court to try to keep deliberations going. But in the end, the defense lost that appeal, and the jury sent another note saying that they were still at an impasse. It is with a heavy heart that we report we are unable to come to a unanimous decision and will not be able to.

1:29Under the statute and the case law, I don't feel I have any choice but to declare a mistrial. The jurors here had a brutal task before them. They were weighing whether Lindsay Clancy, a former nurse who is accused of strangling her three young children to death, can be held criminally responsible for her actions. Prosecutors say that she knew exactly what she was doing. but the defense says that she was suffering from postpartum psychosis that spiraled out of control. Clancy's attorney seemed confident that the jury would have acquitted his client if it weren't for one juror. They know that they were robbed by one man for whatever his agenda was, who stole seven weeks of the life of these other jurors.

2:22Is Lindsay ready for a second trial? Lindsay is very, very, very strong. She is a very, very intelligent young woman, very emotionally invested and just a tragic. She's a classic example of a tragic person. Her life is a tragedy. And she was robbed by this man. Joining us at the table is CNN correspondent Kara Scannell, criminal defense attorney Stacey Schneider, legal analyst for Midas Touch, Dina Dahl, and retired U.S. judge, a district court judge, Judge Shira Shindlin. Just, Cara, as we get started here, I mean, you've been covering this trial. What is the prosecutor's office saying right now about the prospect that this incredibly high-profile trial that really has captivated the entire country could go to trial again?

3:16Well, the DA today is saying that he will make this decision shortly. So even out of the gate, he wasn't committing to bringing this case to a retrial. But a lot of his statement was saying that he was doing this for the victims, the three young children who died. And, you know, he was even heckled during this press conference that he gave afterwards where people were saying that Clancy was the victim. And he was saying, no, you know, this was not an insensitive case. What's insensitive is the killing of three young children. So he's laid out that this is something that they firmly stand behind.

3:46He's not second guessing himself. But, you know, they'll probably also evaluate if this really was 11 to 1 jury verdict that would have gone toward, if not an acquittal, not guilty because she was not criminally responsible. He said that they were also going to have discussions and conversations about that. And that's why no decision was imminent today. So, Judge, one of the issues here in this case is this insanity defense. And that is the big issue for so many people who are just bystanders watching, but also from a legal perspective. This professor of law who studies actually women like Lindsay Clancy who kill their own children says that Miss Clancy is lucky in a sense because in Massachusetts, it's one of a handful of states where they've actually updated this insanity defense.

4:38Four states don't even allow you to do this. By contrast, Massachusetts has held that defendants should not be judged criminally responsible if mental illness renders them unable to control their actions to follow the law. How hard did that make the job of the prosecutors in this case? And do you understand why the jury would have not been able to get to a unanimous verdict or they might have been on the verge of acquitting her? So that's three questions at once. But the prosecutor's job was surely hard because they had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she wasn't acting because she was mentally disturbed, almost having to prove the negative.

5:23And there was a lot of... Prove that she's sane. Yeah, well, that she wasn't, yes. But that's hard to prove in a way. So I can see where the jury had a particularly hard job because the jury is hearing sort of both sides and there almost had to be reasonable doubt whether she acted intentionally and willfully and not because she was mentally disturbed. So I can see that the jury would have a lot of trouble reaching that verdict. That's why the speculation is that it was 11 to 1 for an acquittal, right? In your view, is there one thing that stands out to you that would have really created that reasonable doubt for the jury?

6:06Yeah, there's a lot of evidence that she really had this syndrome, this postpartum psychosis. And if the jury thought that she did, then she's not criminally responsible for her actions. And I would understand why the jury would have that problem and why they would think that the one juror was not listening to the judge about what is a reasonable doubt. Because it almost sounds like any juror would have a reasonable doubt about her mental capacity to make the decisions she made. And Stacey, would you have retried this? Would you try to retry this case if you were a prosecutor? I almost think the prosecution has an obligation to the community to retry the case because there were three children who were murdered.

6:52Whether or not they have a strong case when they go back again, they're going to have the same case they had before, which their argument was that this was an intentional killing. They have a murder one charge there, that this was premeditated. She planned it out. and their whole case was based on this timeline of her sending the husband out to the CVS to pick up medication for one of the kids and then pick up Chinese food for dinner. That was the case. But their case did not take into account or didn't focus on the fact that she jumped out of a window. She slit her wrists and jumped out of a second-floor story window, allegedly after killing the kids.

7:32Now it's not alleged anymore, but I guess it still is, actually, because it's going to be a good time. She acknowledges, she admits to killing the children. That's not so much in question. Well, her lawyer made that admission on her behalf. There's no actual real statement from her, which is so interesting in this trial. All the evidence presented, the husband said that my wife killed the kids on the 911 tape, but there's no actual admission from her. But her attorney embraced that admission. So you are right that way, that exists. Yeah, I mean, I think what you said about the Massachusetts burden of proof is really the entire case, because this was a battle of the experts.

8:09It would always be in an insanity case. And the defense could have not put on any expert and still possibly won it. I mean, that's how hard it is to overcome that burden of proof that the prosecution had to put on. And then just in terms of whether or not, you know, the DA probably overcharged this case to begin with. The fact that he went for first-degree murder rather than just manslaughter, in itself also would have made it much harder to convict. We see it time and time again. When you overcharge a case, you lose credibility as a prosecutor. You could say, well, they showed enough evidence for manslaughter, the jury could have just picked that.

8:46But the problem is when the prosecution gives you all these arguments for a first-degree murder charge that the jury doesn't really buy, you lose the credibility for the entire case. Let me play a little bit more from Lindsey Clancy's attorney. he really went hard against the one juror who was the holdout apparently. And he talked about the prospect that she could get a fair trial if this were retried. They know that they were robbed by one man. I hope that guy can sleep well at least. I don't know if we will ever be able to get jurors that aren't aware of this case anywhere. New York, Washington, Georgia, Japan, India, I don't know, anywhere.

9:34Kara, I mean, in a way, I don't know, maybe he's right about that because this is, I've seen people describe this as sort of like a O.J. Simpson-like trial and the way that it's taken over social media and it's become a proxy for other conversations. But is he right that they would have a hard time finding a jury? And what was the reaction to the way that he really went after this one juror, not just today, but as we built up to this moment? Right. I mean, it wasn't just today. He accused the juror of lying to the judge under oath during the proceedings because he so wanted to make the point that this juror needed to get off the case because he was that confident that he would get a new juror to come in and then win the case.

10:18stage in the case when they were deliberating? Yeah, I mean, he was trying that up until the end. I mean, up until the judge said, I have no choice but to declare a mistrial. And he's like, stop, give me an hour to run to the highest court in Massachusetts to try to get that judge to intervene and hold you off from declaring a mistrial because he wanted further probing of this juror. I think also to build a foundation so he could challenge the juror and say that the juror should have thrown off because they were acting improperly. You know, it's very hard to get a juror thrown off of a case, but if you could lay the foundation, that would have been the argument.

10:53But people were shocked that he was going so hard after this juror, both in the courtroom and then outside of it. And is that a potential intimidation factor for future juries is a question that I would ask the lawyers. What do you think, Judge? You know, I think that jurors really do listen to instructions and really do what they think is right. I think this juror just disagreed with the other 11 and had a right to do that. And there's no reason, no basis to think that he refused to deliberate. So I think the judge made the right decision. He said, I have no basis to believe that he refused to deliberate.

11:26Therefore, I have no basis to toss him off the jury. And therefore, I have to accept that this jury could not reach a unanimous verdict. And I had the identical situation once of 11 to 1, which I now know was for conviction. But one juror held out and said, nope, that's not my view. And the other juror said he's refusing to deliberate. And I did question that juror in court, and I decided he was deliberating. He just disagreed with the other 11. So a mistrial was declared, and the second jury, by the way, acquitted. So this jury was 11 to 1 for conviction. So there's such a big risk there. Yeah, the second jury acquitted.

12:06Yeah. I mean, is there a difference between a refusal to deliberate and a juror potentially having a view of the morality of what happened? Because, I mean, there is an aspect of this that is, as the Massachusetts district attorney pointed out, that is about three young children who were murdered. And there are many people in this country who believe that it doesn't matter what the excuse is, that you are responsible. And is that different from you're refusing to deliberate? Or is that the same thing as, you know, there is reasonable doubt. It doesn't matter what your morals are. The law says what the law says.

12:46There's a big difference between the two. And I think, like the judge said, the outcome that the judge picked was the right one, despite all of the yelling and paper throwing from the defense attorney. If a juror is engaged in misconduct in the jury room, then yes, They could be removed and should be removed off of a case. Misconduct is blatantly stating I'm not going to follow the law, not participating in deliberations, doing something that's obvious. But just sitting in a jury room and saying to the 11 other jurors, I don't agree with you. I see three. I'm just guessing this is what happened in there.

13:21It seems the most obvious. I don't agree with all of you. These children are dead. I believe the prosecution's case that she did it intentionally. I'm not buying the mental illness claim. I'm not changing that. That juror has every right to do that. And the defense attorney to go out and kind of attack and rake the juror over the coals for being the holdout. Yes, it's disappointing. He didn't get the verdict he wanted for his client. Maybe his client deserved that verdict. But we still have a system of 12 people. And they all come from different viewpoints and different backgrounds and look at evidence differently.

13:54and the law provides. If there's a doubt and it's reasonable, then the proof has to go beyond that. If there's a doubt, maybe this person didn't have a doubt. Maybe this holdout juror doubted one little piece of the case but thought, I thought this was an intentional act. We don't know. We have more to discuss as we go forward in the show. Next for us, the emotions ran high inside and outside of this courthouse today. Why the trial has resonated all around the country. plus the president threatens the Fed and that's after a good jobs report. We'll be right back.

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15:42For weeks, the Lindsay Clancy case has captivated the nation, not just because of the disturbing nature of the crimes at hand, but because of its renewed focus on mental illness and maternal mental health care in particular. That's why dozens of people, mostly women, have been showing up to the courthouse clad in pink to signal their support for her. We're here to send one message and that message is that it should not take tragedy for people to start paying attention to mental health. I believe that women deserve support and And Lindsay didn't receive the support that she deserved. We love you, Lindsay, and we're here for you.

16:24I really feel like the village needs to come back around women after they have children. I hope that doctors will not just dismiss women because that is what's happened decade after decade after decade. Joining us now at the table is Dr. Catherine Berndorf. Berndorf. She is a reproductive psychiatrist and a clinical associate professor of psychiatry and obstetrics and gynecology at Will Cornell Medical College. Doctor, the proxy fight that this case has become about postpartum health care for women and mental health is it's what brought this case to my attention. I'm expecting my second child.

17:08My entire feed for a time was about Lindsey Clancy and about how many medications she was on, how many times she sought treatment. Do you think that all of that validates this idea that she really was not in control of herself in the minutes or however long it took for these murders to take place? I think you can safely say that she was not well, not well and mentally ill for a long time. And I think people struggle to believe that mothers can have mental illness as it relates to pregnancy, childbirth and postpartum. We're not comfortable with that. We don't want to believe it, even though we accept medical.

17:57We accept other issues like, you know, hypertension, diabetes, all those things that you get checked for right during pregnancy and postpartum. But if it's mental illness, somehow the taboo remains. And so it's very hard to believe at the time of what happened that she could have been and was psychotic. And just one note on the nature of postpartum psychosis. I've heard several experts describe it as something that can come and go. And that was such a key issue in this case because the prosecution was basically making the argument, While she was acting perfectly normally in this moment, she sent her husband to go get dinner, she did this, she did that.

18:39What do you make of that? Entirely consistent with postpartum psychosis, period. That you can believe something very factually, truly, unshakably, that is a delusion and a psychotic belief, and be behaving entirely normally. We see this every day at the Motherhood Center. I was interviewing women today trying to understand what was happening. They are psychotic, but appear totally fine otherwise. So, Stacey, it's become a little political, to be honest, because I think a lot of conservatives, especially if you're pro-life or anti-abortion, this is sort of a big issue for them. And one of these commentators said that, this is Lila Rose, she said, even if Lindsay was suffering from psychosis, something that ultimately must be determined by evidence and medical experts, we still have to wrestle with a difficult question.

19:40Does mental illness automatically erase moral responsibility? Ultimately, I don't want to live in a society where explaining evil becomes synonymous with medicalizing and excusing it. I think there is a legitimate question in there about all crimes. I mean, some people have asked the question, aren't all crimes, to some extent, a result of people who are mentally disturbed? Yeah. I mean, look, it's a fascinating philosophical question, but from a practical basis, the law is designed to answer your question. For example, an insanity plea or being found not guilty by reason of insanity means that you are suffering from a mental disease or defect.

20:24And the second part of that is where you cannot distinguish the difference between right and wrong. So the disease is causing your inability to make the distinction between a criminal act and a non-criminal act. Those words work. This is not the first insanity defense case. People are incarcerated into prison hospitals because they are found not guilty by reason of insanity. There are different levels of psychosis that the jurors consider. And in this trial, they did a good job at the defense. They were very careful in laying out the history of the psychosis. And even for very practical parts of her daily life, there was just one text that really stood out to me.

21:06She texted her mother or her mother-in-law. She was about to go to bed for the evening, and she had to take this new medication. and she said, I'm about to take this medication and I'm really scared to take it. Because those, you know, antipsychotic drugs or psychotropic drugs cause such severe reactions. And we do know, we know that. There were so many people outside of this courthouse. Let me just play. This is a couple of people. One of them actually is a man talking to a reporter about some of the darker sides of the commentary around this case. Let me play it. And then there's a third party involved, which is the husband.

21:45So that's where I have the problem. Because I'm very traditional, to be honest with you. And I was a man in my household for 42 years so far. Nothing like that is going down in my house. Because there had to be signs. And was there a moment in the trial, some evidence that kind of made you start thinking about supporting Lindsay and just kind of like brought it home for you? Yeah, I could only hear Patrick said so many times. Okay, Patrick is her ex-husband. There are conspiracies out there that he was actually responsible, even though, as we talked about earlier, her lawyer has acknowledged that she was responsible for the murders.

22:31The case is just whether or not she was insane. What do you make of the role that Patrick kind of took on in the broader commentary around this case? I mean, he is someone that especially online people have focused on. You know, he testified for the prosecution, but his testimony was very helpful in many ways to Clancy as well. You know, he put a lot of empathy toward her, you know, but there are the questions of the responsibility. And even a reporter had asked Reddington, Clancy's lawyer, about him today and saying, you know, people online are saying that he was responsible. And he's like, well, I didn't say that.

23:08You know, I'm going to leave it there. You know, I think that was probably also maybe helpful in the case just to lay questions on the thoroughness of the prosecution's case and the investigation by the police department there. And interestingly, I thought afterwards, Clancy's lawyers came out and said that it would be extraordinarily painful for a retrial. So he's signaling that he doesn't want a retrial that would deal with the murder of his kids. He's moved on with his life. He's remarried, I believe. He moved to New York City. He moved to another state. I mean, so there's that. But I mean, I think people are, there's a difference between saying she deserved more help and, oh, actually, he's the one responsible for these horrific deaths.

23:56There was a 911 call where he's reporting his three children murdered. That's not something that is easy to make up. Let's put it that way. But I mean, the cultural element of this case, taking on a life of its own and women coming forward and saying, I was scared that this could have been me at some point. That's what's driven this to the forefront of public opinion. Absolutely. Usually the mother on trial for killing her children has no shot ever. But in this case, because it was the fact that she tried to get help so many times and couldn't, women and mothers in particular really sympathize with her.

24:34Then you got this, right, having these talking points, politicizing it in a way that was, I I thought so disgusting because this is a tragedy. It is a tragedy for those precious children. It is a tragedy for the mother. And because women, like that person had said in your interview there, feel like they have been dismissed by the medical community over and over again. I do not see how Republicans then dismissing women talking about their concerns is a good thing. I mean, the fact of the matter is, is that she legitimately didn't get the help she needed. And the more mental health help a mother gets, it helps the children.

25:13Yeah, doctor, you're nodding your head. Absolutely. When moms are well, the kids are well. When they're not, in pregnancy and in postpartum, there are long-term repercussions that affect them at birth, beyond. They can have more mental health issues, learning disabilities, all kinds of things, substance use disorders, more criminality. there's a huge effect on society that's costly. We should want to prevent these illnesses. Treat. They're treatable. They're temporary. People can fully recover. We should be absolutely intervening to do that at all times. They're medical illnesses. There's no difference.

25:56And there's no place for politics. I mean, is there a... I've seen the suggestion that the medical system doesn't even fully acknowledge postpartum psychosis as a real thing? As you've, I'm sure, been hearing, it's not in the DSM, the Diagnostics and Statistics Manual. I evaluated a woman today, and we were debating. She had postpartum psychosis, no doubt. Didn't sleep, two days postpartum, started to get amped up. We started to have intrusive thoughts of harm to the baby, was so scared, ran to her husband, went to the ER. Now, when I'm having to write down what her diagnosis is, I'm saying to myself, do I want to call this psychosis not otherwise specified?

26:39Do I want to call this, do I want to give it a modifier? That's ridiculous. We all need to be able to come around this illness, have it be legitimate. It is a legitimate and well-researched illness, medical illness. Then we can get insurers to pay for it. We can get more funding for it. We can have treatment for it. And we can stop tragedies like this. Yeah. The lack of continuity of care is one of the things that really struck out to me. There's nothing that will bring those kids back or make anything about this case good. A mistrial, a guilty verdict, a not guilty verdict. But this conversation is one that clearly penetrates really deep in our society and needs to be taken very seriously.

27:26Coming up next for us, the president sends a warning to the Federal Reserve. Cut interest rates or I'll cut trade with some of our key partners. We'll be right back.

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28:21Tonight, two months from the midterms, Donald Trump got a desperately needed rebound. But is he throwing away the win? The U.S. labor market added 162 ,000 jobs in August. That's the strongest number since March and more than double what economists had expected. The job gains snap a months-long stretch of poor job growth. and August also marked the first increase in the labor force participation rate in eight months. Now, the report wasn't all good news as wage growth slowed again, landing at a five-year low. It's also the fourth month in a row that Americans' pay gains were outpaced by inflation.

29:00And to make matters worse, just minutes after this report was released, the president threatened to stop the U.S. from trading with top partners unless the Federal Reserve lowers interest rates at its upcoming meeting. Quote, lower the rate or I'll stop trading with countries with which we have a trade deficit, Trump said in a post on Truth Social. It's better than tariffs. The Fed board, with its new great leader, must get smart, be patriots for a change. Now, before we open it up to the table here, we want to invite you at home to join our debate. Head to CNN.com slash Abby, weigh in there. We'll get to some of your comments as we go throughout the show.

29:41Natasha, this is a good jobs report for the president, particularly since it signals that for this year, job growth is better than last year. But then he steps on it by posting something that frankly is pretty economically illiterate and doesn't demonstrate an understanding of how the economy works. Indeed, I can't really explain it to you. He threatened the Federal Reserve with tariffs on other countries. I've never heard such a thing. And by the way, it is just the case that a Federal Reserve that's looking at the nature of the economy right now and watching a job market that is doing very well, that is quite strong, where unemployment is in the low fours, and is seeing inflation that has not been anywhere near expectations since the post-pandemic period is obviously looking at this and seeing that it needs to think seriously about increasing interest rates, definitely not decreasing them.

30:40And that's what the market's expecting. The odds of a rate increase at the next Fed meeting have increased pretty substantially by from around under 50 percent to over 60 percent as a result of this jobs print. So I genuinely cannot, as an economist, articulate to you what the president's thinking. What is the president thinking? Well, number one, I think this is a continuation of his long-held belief that rates have been too high for too long. And, you know, I think when you tweet or post at the Fed, you're working the refs. And he's hoping that they follow his lead on this. Of course, they don't have to, an independent board.

31:15But this is not new. He's wanted the rates lowered for a very long time. He thinks it's holding back the U.S. economy. I don't know what they're going to do. I think you could make a case, and some are already doing it, that the economy is running hot and they need to pay attention to that. on the inflation side. I do think the jobs report for him today, I agree with your assessment, it's a great report for him. 162 ,000 jobs blew away the forecaster's estimates, and they revised the last two months upward by 55 ,000 jobs. There was also a bounce in manufacturing activity, and we've seen a several months-long increase in the manufacturing index.

31:47So there is some evidence that this economy is resilient, that it has momentum, and it is tied to the policies of this president. And that is something, if they choose to focus on it and the Republicans choose to focus on it, can work in the midterm. Well, I want to go back to what you said about using tariffs as a threat to the Fed. For someone who has been talking about tariffs in a very positive way for a decade or more, this is kind of his first acknowledgement that tariffs might be bad. Yeah, some good news in that tweet. And to say, hey, I'm going to do something really, really bad unless you do something that I want.

32:21My head is spinning already. Right? I am not like, what is what's going on? Yeah. To your point. I mean, I thought he said the tariffs were actually supposed to help us. So why is it a threat? Well, it's it's only a threat if I guess if the Fed does what he wants. But to Scott's point, he has been long fixated on on interest rates. In his mind, it's strength and weakness. Lower rates in his mind mean you're a stronger country. But what comes with lower rates is potentially higher inflation. And that's what the Fed has to balance. He on this is an absolutist. He sees it very clearly. But the Fed, part of their mandate is to ensure that prices don't go up any higher than they're going up.

33:06And I don't think he appreciates the struggle that they face. Can you just acknowledge that the president doesn't seem to understand how economics works? I mean, you said he doesn't appreciate it. He doesn't seem like he actually even understands it. Well, there's a split when it comes to trade deficits, when it comes to the interest rate. That's not what we're talking about. Not everybody universally believes the same thing. Yeah, but it's common sense that if the Fed is trying to battle inflation, which is still high, that's a fact, why would they lower rates when the job market is running hot?

33:39That doesn't make any sense. It's actually quite confusing because the president wants to see mortgage rates come down, right? But the nature of the Federal Reserve doesn't control your mortgage rate. It controls this intrabank lending rate. What's going to happen if the Fed decided to cut rates at its next meeting is actually long-term rates are going to continue to go up because of an expectation and understanding that as inflation continues to tick up, and if there's a Federal Reserve that isn't credibly committed to fighting it, then you're going to be in a situation where you're in a risky environment.

34:09But if you did cut rates, just as a question, it would spur economic investment, would it not? So the thing about it, Scott, is actually no, because the situation is going to be that. Did it cost less to borrow? No, no, very, very clear to articulate. We are in a situation where the administration is putting direct pressure on the Federal Reserve and trying to circumvent central bank independence. We've actually experimented with that in the United States before. In the Nixon administration, Arthur Byrne said, I'm going to do everything I can to help you get reelected, and I'm going to cut interest rates.

34:40And the result of that was inflation over two years going from 3 % to 13 % and growth slowing. And the same thing will happen here if Chair Warsh, which I hope he won't do and has given every indication that he won't, actually fall sway to these political pressures. I just want to jump in real quick because I think this conversation is predicated on the idea that the jobs report is actually right. And I'm not to be a wet blanket not convinced because they fired the head of the Bureau of Labor. Because it's good news? It's not because it's good news. You're saying it's fake news. Well, I mean, you're the master of fake news.

35:07Listen, Justin Wolfers, who I really respect as an economic voice on a lot of things, and he is no dove about criticizing this president. He posted today, in anticipation of what you just said, that he does not believe that there is any funny business with this jobs report. So I have a hard time. And I will say, the reason I'm going to say that is because we've talked about messing around with job numbers before. But people need to understand that revisions are normal. Sure. That changes month to month are normal. None of that is a sign that there's anything bad or nefarious going on. And we don't have any evidence of that.

35:44The one thing I will say is the accuracy of the job numbers has been challenged by survey response rates. Yes. That's a real thing. But that's different from somebody who's going in and tweaking with the leverage. But I want to say this, which is like when the ADP report from yesterday was a lot more dire than this one was. It showed 17 ,000 manufacturing jobs were lost. And I do bring in the credibility of the Trump administration here. They fired the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics last year because they didn't like the numbers. They were pretty honest about that. They've been caught lying about the number of U.S.

36:14servicemen and women who have died or been hurt in the middle of this illegal war in Iran. Donald Trump lies about a lot, and it wouldn't be beneath them to do something like this. So two months before an election, suddenly the job market is hot. And here's the other problem, too, is what's the value of creating 162 ,000 jobs in a month if you need to have two or three of those jobs to be able to afford your grocery bill? I really do want to sort of echo what Abby is saying and what Justin said. there's no evidence of any sort that there's any tampering with this jobs report. And in reality, I agree, it's great news for the labor market.

36:43But what you saw is the stock market actually reacted negatively to this positive report because of its understanding that what you're likely to see is an increase in interest rates as a result of it. So I don't even think that, and I think that's why you saw the president's true social post. I don't even think that this positive jobs report is uniformly good news from the administration's perspective, but I really do not think that we should question the credibility of the data. So the other thing I will say. I think even the fact that they lie about so much, I feel the need to question the credit card.

37:07All I'll say is, as my mother would say, tomorrow's another day. There will be another jobs report. And that could be a revision of this jobs report. Very likely to be. Very likely to be. So, I mean, this is a snapshot in time in this moment. And one of the things about this jobs report that it does show, you know, there's some seasonal hiring that's happening right now that's affecting the jobs numbers. So, look, let's take it as it is. Let's have this conversation on the basis that it's a real thing. We have more to discuss when we continue this conversation. We'll be back in just a moment.

38:03in the public domain. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for a 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. Hey y 'all, Kelly Clarkson here with Wayfair. You know my favorite compliment during the holidays? Your house feels so cozy. That's when I know everyone's comfortable enough to kick off their shoes, grab more dessert, and stay a little longer. Wayfair makes it easy, with everything from dining furniture to festive guest room essentials, all in one place.

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38:53As Americans head into the Labor Day holiday, they are facing the highest gas prices that we have seen on record. according to CNN. The president's war with Iran isn't just the only thing that's driving up prices at the gas pump. Diesel is at the heart of the modern economy. It was also hit by an all-time high on Friday. Jet fuel costs have skyrocketed, leading airlines to hike airline airfare and baggage fees while cutting less profitable flights. So this is the actual day-to-day, what things cost reality for a lot of Americans. They're going on road trips this weekend. It's expensive. They're buying groceries.

39:34It's expensive. That cookout is going to cost a lot of money this time around. Yeah, it is. And all of this is very reminiscent of the conversations we would have in the Biden White House every first Friday of the month where, you know, we've got these positive numbers. You know, President Biden had positive jobs numbers month after month. But Scott, I mean, you did a very good job of making the point that numbers on a spreadsheet aren't the same thing as what people are actually feeling when they're at the grocery store and when they're at the gas pump. And that's exactly what we're seeing now.

40:03I mean, we can debate any economic metric we want, but at the end of the day, Americans are not feeling like this economy is getting better. And we are in an administration in which the president said that on day one he's going to fix it. And then a couple months after that, J.D. Vance said, well, be patient. And now we're on year two of this where people are feeling pinched. And to Mike's point, I mean, people are feeling like they have to get multiple jobs just to get by. 50 % of Americans are very anxious and struggling to afford just gas and groceries. So what do you say to that? Well, look, I will just point out what's happening in the state of Indiana where I live.

40:35We have the lowest cost of gas per gallon in the entire country. And why is that? Well, it's because our governor for five months now has suspended the gas tax. And the reason he can do that is because of responsible Republican leadership that ensures that we have healthy and stable reserves. Local governments are being made whole. They're not going to lose anything from this. So that's the whole point of having a rainy day fund. It's the whole point of electing good people to office. So when these things happen, they can react. That doesn't happen in blue states where there's spendthrifts and just throwing money out the window all the time.

41:11And they can't make these decisions when the time comes. Pete, the thing that is sort of complicated about that is I think we all agree on the importance of electing good people. The challenge is you have a president who ran a presidential election on the idea of lowering prices on day one. Since coming into office, he has actively taken policies, things like tariffs, which are adding$1 ,100 to the cost that the average American family is paying. Things like the war in Iran, which is adding several hundred dollars to the gas bills that the average American fuels, such that people's wages are not actually keeping up with the price increases that they're experiencing in this economy, and they're frustrated.

41:48And understandably, you can't just tell them, don't be frustrated or have a gas tax. You need policies that are in the direction of promoting growth. But what you can tell them is we cut your taxes. And every Democrat in the Congress voted against cutting taxes. You seem to be concerned about policies that raise prices, valid concern. In an election, you'll have a debate. And the debate between the Republicans and the Democrats on some of this affordability will be around taxation. Republicans don't just want to cut taxes, they did it. And Democrats, of course, voted against that and are currently proposing to overhaul our entire economic system, toss out capitalism, and install socialism, which means even lower expense in America.

42:26The only problem with that argument is that tariffs are taxes. Yes. And guess what the president talked about today? Tariffs. More tariffs. Listen.

42:38What we have to do to cut our trade deficit with the country is not trade with them. Canada's won. If we did no trading with Canada, it would save$90 billion. And so what I'm saying very simply is that we should be paying the lowest interest rate in the world. Now, Canada would be in a heap of trouble. I don't think they'd exist because, again, they do 95 % of their business with us. So many problems there. But I mean, just on a basic level, cutting trade with Canada is not going to help Americans. Right. Well, and if you want to win a trade war, you need allies in order to do that. So immediately attacking Canada and Mexico was an incredibly stupid decision, in my opinion.

43:21But I want to come back to what Scott said just a second ago, is these tariffs are the largest tax increase that the American people have experienced in a very long time, basically in decades. Well documented here, including what you just said about it being$1 ,100 per year for the average American. It's making everything more expensive. Then you add this war in Iran, which is making gas, diesel, and so many other things more expensive. The administration is the one who's driving inflation right now. And I understand, Pete, the point that you made about Indiana lowering its gas tax, suspending its gas tax.

43:46That's great. I live in Chicago just across the border. I agree my taxes are too high. But you know what? I don't live in Gary, Indiana right now, which hasn't had power for quite a while. So yes, Republican states have lower taxes, but they also have lower investment in public infrastructure, which means there are calamities like that that happen all the time. That's the double-edged sword of what happens between Democratic states and Republican states. Yeah. I love that you brought up Gary, Indiana, because there was a lot of coverage of that. But a neighboring community, Griffith, Indiana, also didn't have power for two weeks.

44:14No one talked about that. Another community next to that, Munster, Indiana, didn't have power for two weeks. No one talked about that. Why? Maybe. I don't know. 60 % white in those communities. No one brought it up. Is that a good thing? No one brought it up. Not a single person. My parents were without power for nearly six days. Is that a good thing that any of these questions will have power? I don't know that we need to play the Pale Olympus here. You're making Mike's point that there is a disinvestment in infrastructure. Gary is a significantly larger town than the other two towns you just described.

44:50My question to you is you just hailed the governor of Indiana. What's the governor of Indiana's plan to deal with the infrastructure problem? Because that's something that would not happen in Illinois. We have been investing in infrastructure in ways that other states only dream they could do. I have power right now. A lot of people in Gary, Indiana still don't. All right, we're going to leave it there. Coming up next for us, there's a new report that finds more and more Republican candidates do not want to campaign with President Trump. But the RNC is warning them that that would be a risky mistake.

45:16That's next.

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45:58Tonight, Republican lawmakers are SVPing no to next week's convention. I have to be in the district. Get a warning from the RNC. Distance yourself from the president at your own risk. Plus, Fetterman under fire. A scathing report says he's not interested in doing his job, and his Democratic colleagues agree. Also, after failing to reach a deal in Iran to end the war, Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff are headed to Kyiv and Moscow. They're bringing with them a proposal to end the war. because I've ended eight wars. As Ukraine gets blamed for higher gas prices in the U.S. Ukraine has decided that they want to blow up Russian energy assets.

46:40And the search for immortality, one construction project at a time. It's called a flawless granite. We get the best stuff. One thing I know how to do is build. I love construction. What's driving the president's punch list and his timeline? Live at the table, Mike Nellis, Scott Jennings, Tim Parrish, and Dina Dahl. Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here they do.

47:18Welcome back. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Tonight, Republican candidates all around the country are facing a difficult question. Should they embrace Trump or distance themselves from him? The RNC warns candidates that keeping Trump at arm's length could risk alienating the base and dissuade 15 to 20 percent of key Republican voters from turning out. Making matters even more challenging is the hundreds of millions of dollars that President Trump's super PAC, MAGA Inc., has in its war chest. He was asked about how those funds will be spent today. When will your super PAC, MAGA Inc., start spending on Ken Paxton?

47:55We already did, yeah. Will you spend more? Well, I have, I think I have like close to a billion dollars in the Super PAC. And I'm allocating probably four or five hundred million dollars. So I'll be spending, we'll be spending. The Pressure of election. Yeah, we're going to spend a lot of money because we don't want to lose our country. How do you make that determination of how to spend and how to spend that? How do I make it? I sit down and I say, let's do this. Let's do that. I'm going to be going around. I'm going to be making contributions to various campaigns of people that I think are good.

48:29So, why don't Republicans want Trump on the campaign trail? Well, perhaps it's because of the unpopularity of the Iran War, or Trump's own abysmal polling numbers, or that he insists America is in its golden age, while Americans say that they're feeling pressure of the economy every single day. So here's Republican Congressman Rob Whitman. He won his race in Virginia's 1st District by 13 points in 2024, but he still hasn't given Trump a call to ask him to come and campaign for him this cycle. Listen. Do you want the president to come to the first district and campaign with you? Well, Ryan, listen, I'm very focused on our campaign plan, getting out and talking to the folks in the first congressional district.

49:13But would part of your campaign plan be to have an event with the president to bring him to your district? Well, my campaign plan is about our efforts to talk with our constituents and do everything that we can to meet with them, as many as we can face to face. All right, Mitra, one more time. Do you want the president to campaign for you? As I said, our campaign plan is focused on my interactions with my constituents and the things that we've worked on there. All right, before we open it up at the table, we invite you at home to join our debate. Go to CNN.com slash Abby Weigh In. We'll get to some of your comments throughout the show.

49:49So, Tim, is it wise for the RNC to be, maybe they're not yet strong-arming, but they seem to suggest that they could be strong-arming people into having Donald Trump in their districts, warning them not to avoid the president when they clearly have their reasons for why they don't want him down there. Abish, I actually think this is a very interesting story, right? When you look at, we saw this happen on the left as well with Democrats who said they didn't want Kamala Harris to come and campaign with them. And she said, we've got to win. So I'm happy to stay away. I don't think the president needs to go to these districts or doesn't need to go to districts because the candidates that are running there have great records to run on.

50:29And they should just let their Democrat challengers run on the things they're running on, like abolishing the police, keeping the border open, getting rid of the Senate, getting rid of the presidency. The congressman in question that you just brought up there, the subject actually used to be my congressman, Rob Whitman. He's a spectacular representative for people in the first district. His opponent, Shannon Taylor, lost her bid in the Democrat primary to be attorney general because she's a soft on crime, radical, liberal candidate. And she's not going to be good for that district. So it doesn't matter if the president comes or not.

51:00I think that Rob should run and Republicans across the country should run and let the Democrats run their radical agenda. Is the RNC wrong that they would be jeopardizing 15 to 20 percent of the electorate? Because Tim says that, yeah, these candidates are a right to stay away from Trump if they need to. Well, that's not what I said. You said that if they need to run their races, they should do it. I said that the Republicans should run. First of all, Donald Trump's not on the ballot. Second of all, the candidates that are running for Congress, as Rob said, should be the ones on the ground engaging their constituents.

51:31Well, let me just ask you that. Is the RNC, the RNC is saying to Whitman, don't avoid Trump. Have him in your district because if you don't, 15 to 20 percent of your base is not going to show up. Are they right about that? What I think is important here is, as the congressman said, is he should be the one on the ground. Okay, so the answer is no, Tim. Is that a yes or a no? What he's going to do for them. Okay, so is that a yes or a no? Should Donald Trump go down to that district in Virginia and campaign with Whitman? He's the president of the United States. He can go campaign wherever he would like to.

52:05But what's important is that Rob Whitman is the one who's on the ground talking about his— I'm going to take your refusal to answer the question three times as an acknowledgment that you don't think that the president should go down there. I just want a yes or no answer. It's important. Is it the right thing? Is he making the wrong move as a candidate, risking 20 percent of the base by not having the president there? There's a yes or no answer to that question. He's making the right move by telling people what he's going to do for them in their district. But here's the thing. Every Republican is afraid to cross the Trump White House right now, and that's the problem.

52:40You brought up Kamala Harris a second ago. We've had multiple Democrats, including Rob Sand in Iowa and Peltola in Alaska, who have said, I don't want Kamala Harris to come campaign. And Kamala Harris said, OK, I understand that because we're not afraid to stand up to our party leaders. You guys are afraid to stand up to Trump. You can't answer a basic question from Abby. Neither could the congressman. Well, first of all, I'm not afraid of much. It's a simple yes or no. Including not crossing the presidency. I've said on this show multiple times and disagreed with the administration on subjects.

53:04You can't answer a simple yes or no question. The question, because it's not a simple yes or no. People are running for Congress, and they should be the ones talking to their constituents about what they're going to do for them on the ground. I think the Republican Party is going to find out what the rest of us have known for a long time, which is it's always about Trump. He has dragged this country through the mud because he lost in 2020. He cannot handle every race not being about him. But he is deeply unpopular. They will lose if they tie himself. But rather than maybe keep some seats, he's willing to throw the whole thing away if they do not bow down to dear leader.

53:44And the Republicans, especially after these midterms, when he becomes a lame duck president and people are going to start vying to become the presidential nominee, it is going to drive him bananas. And the Republican Party is going to see how far Trump is willing to go to not appear a loser. Might I remind you, though, the president did in 24, I know you brought up 20, in 24, won the electoral college and won the popular vote in this country. And so the president absolutely is not about... And what are his numbers now? Sure, you can look at polls. He's underwater in 47 out of 50 states. The Democrats have tried to run on Orange Man bad, not on the policies that they actually have.

54:17Democrats have won a lot of elections in the last year and a half on Orange Man bad. About what they're going to help the American people. Open borders, getting rid of the city. Minority Republicans are going to stand up to Orange Man. And defunding the police. That is the policies that you want to run on. That is not the policies that we're running on right now. Not you, but your party wants to run on. That's not the policy. And Orange Man bad. And it doesn't work. I'm sorry. It's not true to say that battleground Democrats are running on those issues. That is. Look at the people that are winning your primaries.

54:36It's just not true. And it shows the desperation of the Republican Party. Democratic socialists that are winning your primaries are running on those issues. In a handful of places. You're talking about three people. No. Nobody in a battleground race. Only three people. That's not. That is factually not true. No, it is not. It is. That is not true. All right. Okay. All right. We're going to move on from that. We could fact check it, but we're going to move on. Look, Manu Raju spent some time on the Hill. He was talking to some of these Republicans. Let's just let them say in their own words what they want.

55:04Are you planning to go to the Republican convention next week? I'm planning to be in my district. Are you going to the Republican convention next week? Thinking about it. Are you going to the Republican convention next week? I have to be in the district because I have events. I would love to go. I was thinking about it. I'm going to miss out on something important. but I cannot be in two places at the same time yet. Are you going to go to the midterm convention next week? No. I will take, I've been in politics, I've been campaigning for a year and a half. If I were Ralph, I wouldn't go either.

55:34I would love to be there, but I got other things to do. I mean, listen, this midterm convention next week is going to be the Trump show. And a lot of these members are like, we don't have time for this. We have to actually run our own races. Is it a mistake for the president to put on this dog and pony show at a time when actually what his members are asking for is some space and time to do the work that they need to do? I think some will choose not to go. Some will choose to go, particularly if there are fundraising opportunities. I would suspect that a lot of U.S. senators will probably be there because of that.

56:09Individual House races may not have as much of a fundraising boost out of going to this, so it might make more sense for them to stay at home. Look, the idea of the convention was let's give some programming and some messaging out there. If it's going to be a nationalized environment, which, you know, for the political operatives here, I think we would all agree to somewhat nationalized. Then you have to give the American people an affirmative defense of what the Republicans and the president have been doing. And you have to give them some messaging about what you want to do in the future. A convention type format is a good way to do that.

56:39I look forward to seeing what they pull off in Dallas. I'll be there. And I'm looking forward to seeing how they want to lay out, lay out the thing. If I can go back to the to the RNC memo for a minute. They actually have a tactical point. And it is something the Republicans have been grappling with since President Trump came on the scene. There actually are a lot of Republican leaning voters who like to vote for him, but tend not to or haven't turned out for all other Republicans. And I think the point they were making is, look, we we're trying to get those people who love Trump to come out and vote for you.

57:09And if you don't engage with us in that process, we're going to have a hard time doing that. So it's actually a numeric issue they've been dealing with for quite some time. And I understand the technical point of it. But, I mean, when has that ever worked for Trump? No, it doesn't work for Trump. Actually, Harry Inton had some information, some polling data just a couple days ago on CNN talking about the Republicans that are most likely to turn out are the ones who like Donald Trump and the ones who aren't are the ones who don't. So actually him going into those districts might spur a lot of those Republicans that don't support the president to come out and vote for the Democrats.

57:37I'll give you one more. And I think this election of Texas is also revealing because usually parties hold their conventions in swing states. They want activists to get emboldened. You want to then go out and send them out. Are they that worried about Texas, that Democrats are going to flip Texas? Why would you have so many resources come to Texas of all places? Because it is either a safe space for Trump. Evidently, he's going to campaign in Alaska and Texas as of now, both safe spaces. or they know that Texas is really in play. Both things are bad for Republicans. So there's also not just Trump and his money, but also Elon Musk and his money.

58:15And Susan Collins was asked about Musk spending money in her very important Senate race. Here's what she said. Elon Musk's America PAC has donated more than$170 ,000 to your campaign they disclosed on Wednesday. Mr. Musk is pretty controversial for his efforts at Doge and his online conduct. Do you have any comment on these donations? Well, first of all, I wasn't aware of that donation. I knew he was going to get involved in political campaigns, but I had not heard that there was a specific donation. I don't agree with him on everything, but I do agree with him that we need to eliminate waste and be much more efficient in government.

59:00I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not really that helpful to her, to have Elon Musk dabbling in that race. And so it's easy for me to see how actually the money in some of these races where an Elon Musk or a Donald Trump is not particularly popular could end up backfiring for some of these candidates. Yeah, that could be the case. I think that where the senator is, she needs every dime that she can in what I believe is going to be a tight race in Maine. And I agree. She probably didn't know. I don't think she probably tracks every dime that comes into her campaign. She probably didn't know.

59:36But, Abby, I actually agree with you. Who donates to your campaign is indicative of the people that support you and sort of what you support. But she will need every dime that she can get. And I don't think that this is a bad thing in this case for her. I think that was such a bad answer for her. It's about$180 ,000. And really, the attack that Troy Jackson is making is that she is checked out. The fact that she says, I don't know how much somebody is donating to that extent, she already hasn't held town halls for years. She didn't show up to the J.D. Vance rally he just held in August in Maine.

1:00:11Constituents say she doesn't respond to emails, phone calls. So her saying, I don't know who's donating to that tune is not the answer she thinks it is. Are all candidates that basically you're judging the campaign on who donates money to people? Campaigns know how and who gives them money. But I will say that this is an issue not just with the mosque and the Trump. I mean, the AIPAC thing, that is I mean, that's a campaign issue in a lot of these districts and states. Legitimate issue you raise. And I wonder if you will hold Democratic campaigns to the standard when it comes to Act Blue, which is currently under active investigation for funneling foreign money into American life.

1:00:53Act Blue actually is. Do you expect every Democrat candidate to go out and audit their funds to ensure that Act Blue hasn't put legal money in their funds? I'm sorry. I feel the need to push back on this. Let me just let. As the digital fundraiser at the table, Act Blue is a payment processor. So it's about millions of Americans giving donations. They're taking the fifth before Congress. OK, well, right now Donald Trump is trying to dismantle Democratic Party infrastructure. I will also say, I mean, you're kind of trying to make that connection. But it's about whether there is a connection for the voter.

1:01:22And I would argue that the vote, there is no connection between the allegations against Act Blue and most voters. Whereas everybody knows who Elon Musk is. Everybody knows who Donald Trump is. And APAC Democrats and the Democratic Socialists have made APAC a campaign issue. So to the extent Republicans can do that with ActBlue, fine. But so far, it's not. Not to the same degree. Next for us, pathetic, a disgrace, lazy. That is how some Democrats are describing one of their own. Plus, after failing to secure a deal in Iran, the president's trusted dealmakers are headed back to Ukraine and Moscow.

1:02:00What's to make of Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff's latest trip? We'll debate that next.

1:02:14Hey, y 'all. Kelly Clarkson here with Wayfair. When my home's ready for the holidays, I get to focus on what matters, making memories. Wayfair makes it easy, from dining tables and bar carts to holiday plates and serveware. They have everything I need to host all in one place. Wayfair, every style, every home.

1:02:33A sitting U.S. senator called a disgrace, a lazy trust fund baby, and pathetic, And those are what members of his own party are saying. All of these Democrats from Pennsylvania are talking about Senator John Fetterman. The public airing of grievances coming after the Wall Street Journal reports that the senator shows little interest in doing the work voters elected him to do. There are examples of him standing up disabled veterans but making time for an interview on Fox, scoffing at the concerns of a children's hospital he represents, and skipping committee hearings in Washington. This Wall Street Journal piece is, frankly, pretty devastating for John Fetterman.

1:03:14I doubt he cares. That's the God's honest truth. He doesn't seem to be swayed by this type of thing. But it paints a picture of someone not just who's made an ideological shift, but also someone who just seems disinterested in the job. It's that story in particular, the fact that he missed a meeting with disabled veterans in order to then, an hour later, have a Fox interview about the war in Iran, where you are literally creating more veterans and more disabled veterans, is disgusting. I mean, if you could at least speak with your constituents who are affected by war before making this very important decision and going out there and parroting propaganda about the war.

1:03:57I can think of nothing worse for a senator to do than to act as if it doesn't matter what veterans think before pushing war on a national TV show. Yeah, if I can jump in there, there's so many horrifying stories in that, like blowing off sick kids and refusing to go to the funeral of a slain police officer because the funeral was going to be too long. There's certain things that just need to rise above partisan politics. Because it's one thing for me to have a disagreement with Jon Fetterman in Israel. It's another thing for me to have a disagreement with him about the things he says about Abdul Saeed or going on Fox News or stuff like that.

1:04:24It's another thing when you're just not doing your job. But can I just ask you, Mike, I mean, did Democrats gloss over all of this when they nominated him to the Senate? In 2022, an AP story says Fetterman's record shows light schedule as Pennsylvania lieutenant governor. Another story around that time, no show. Dem Senate candidates skipped dozens of city council meetings as mayor. Dr. Oz, who was running against him at the time, raised this issue in that campaign. Listen. John Fetterman has been hiding from voters for the last few months. He last week said he was fine. I haven't heard from him since.

1:05:00and instead they're focused on these snarky posts written by consultants. And no candidate for office of either party ought to be shielded from scrutiny. Okay, so just a moment of honesty. I mean, did Democrats ignore that because he was their guy then, but now it's a problem? Yeah, I think a lot of Democrats did. I worked for another candidate in that primary and thought Fetterman was not the right candidate there. And I worked for him a little bit in the general doing some data work at the end because I support our nominees. But we turned our heads on that. We did the same thing with Graham Plattner.

1:05:28I think there's a type of consultant inside the Democratic Party that's looking for this mythological working class individual. So they find a guy in cargo shorts and they go, that's our guy right now. And they turn a blind eye at the at the silly stuff that they do or how lazy they are. And now we're paying the dividends of that. I think we would have been in the same position if Graham Plattner had been elected to the United States Senate, too. And at least we swapped him out for Troy Jackson. But I will add one other thing. There's multiple senators right now that I think are just not qualified for the job.

1:05:52Fetterman isn't doing it. He isn't qualified for it. Not to pick on Scott. But Mitch McConnell has been seen in three months right now. Darlene Graham can't find Taiwan on a map. Like, we've got a real problem on it. And also, one final thing, sorry to say, is, like, Dr. Oz was a candidate that Donald Trump picked for that race. If they had nominated a regular Republican from Pennsylvania, they probably would have beat Fetterman in that year. So, Scott, do Republicans want Fetterman? Because we know, based on the reporting, that they have been trying. They are hoping that maybe he will switch teams.

1:06:20Do you want the senator who has all of these things now on paper? Well, I mean, I think you'd want all the votes you can get in a closely divided chamber. I don't know what the count's going to be after the election. But if a Democrat became a Republican, it would make it very difficult for the Democrats to take the majority, perhaps. I mean, look, he votes with the Democrats most of the time on certain key issues. He's broken with his party. I frankly have admired how Fetterman has shown backbone. He stands up to this angry mob that runs a Democratic Party. They don't allow you to get out of line.

1:06:51And let's be honest, a lot of this has to do with Israel. He has stood with Israel, and that has not been popular in the Democratic Party, and so all these people have been raging against him. Of course he has to answer for all of these constituent services issues. Every senator and every congressman does. But the problem for Fetterman is that in the Democratic Party, if you get out of line, particularly on Israel, they will come for you and they will assassinate your character. And I think that's what they're doing. Are you worried about what Mike just pointed out, which is like when you ignore this stuff, when you just want to accumulate power, Or at some point, the chickens come home to roost.

1:07:24Oh, look, my advice to anyone who gets elected to the U.S. Congress or the Senate is the number one thing you should spend your time on, tending to your constituents. The people, the members in either party that have the best constituent services, those are the ones that tend to get reelected and remain popular even in turbulent times. That's true for a long time and it's true right now. I agree. Do you want him? What I would say, I don't get anyone. You can have him, frankly. No, he is where he's supposed to be. We would take him today. I'll make you a deal. We'll swap out McConnell and Fetterman at the same time.

1:07:56He is where he's supposed to be. Millions of Pennsylvanians voted for him. They do have an alternative with Dave McCormick, which I appreciate your point that if they would have elected a regular person, and they did with Dave McCormick. Sorry to interrupt you, but did you know, this kind of shocked me, John Fetterman is more popular with Republicans than David McCormick is in the state of Pennsylvania? That may be the case, but they have an alternative in Dave McCormick is the point that I'm making. I mean, what does that say? Can I say something about that? This McCormick thing, Fetterman and McCormick, I'll just throw this out.

1:08:26They actually do things together. They make appearances together. I think it's kind of somewhat shocking in our environment for people to hear that. But you have a senator from each party in a big state out doing things together. Don't we always say we want a little more bipartisanship? And you've got two guys trying to do it, and now the Democrats in his own party are trying to give a character assassination to Fetterman. I mean, he's literally threatening to switch parties. So this is not a matter of him having opinions and us attacking him. He's made it very clear he's ready to jump ship if the Republicans need him come the midterms.

1:08:59But the fact is, he will no longer be a Fox News darling if that happens, because he does vote with Democrats most of the time. And Fox loves him because he criticizes his own party. Is he willing to criticize Republicans? Probably not. But, I mean, so he should be very careful about switching. He won't remain the darling on Fox that he is now. But he's the Democrats' problem for now. For now. But Republicans treat him like a useful idiot. They want him to stay inside the Democratic Party. See, look what happens. When you get out of line in the Democrat Party, they call you an idiot. That's what they do.

1:09:30I think the point, he's useful to you guys. You guys want him because he embarrasses us. See what I mean? They call him an idiot. I mean, look, John Fetterman. I mean, a guy that's blowing off sick kids and disabled veterans is not a good sign. He goes out and speaks his mind on one thing. It's not about Israel. I haven't brought up Israel once. You're the one who brought it up. I'm talking about his constituent services. is he's not doing the basic core aspect of the job. And that's a legitimate issue to talk about. Yeah. See, it's what it is for you, right? Why don't we... No, talking about the constituents.

1:09:58Well, if I can add one more thing. All of it. Scott, why don't you pull out your phone and ask Mitch McConnell if he feels about it? Oh, that's true. Two different things. Yeah, ask him. That's totally two different things. Next for us, President Trump has recently downplayed Russia helping Iran. But how are his trusted dealmakers going to be received on their way to Kiev and then Moscow? We'll discuss.

1:10:26After the Trump administration failed to reach a deal to end the war in Iran, it now looks like it's shifting its diplomatic efforts to Russia and Ukraine. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner reportedly planned to visit Moscow and Kyiv as soon as this weekend. Russia has recently ramped up its assault against Ukraine, while Kyiv has been targeting Russia's oil infrastructure. That's something that Treasury Secretary Scott Besson claims is what's to blame for the high gas prices that Americans are paying. We are going through an energy shock right now due to both the war in Ukraine, because Ukraine has decided that they want to blow up Russian energy assets and refine products.

1:11:11So that is creating upward price pressure on a global basis. Joining us in our fifth seat is Max Boot. He's a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. And Max, read these tea leaves for us. The pivot to Ukraine and Russia, the fact that President Trump just a couple of days ago dismissed the idea that Russia is being a bad guy when it comes to helping Iran. What are they preparing to do here? Well, I don't think they're preparing to accomplished very much. I mean, I'm old enough, Abby, to remember when President Trump kept claiming he was going to end the war between Russia and Ukraine in a day.

1:11:51That was his constant refrain when he was running for his second term. Now it's been well over a year and a half, and the war is still going undiminished. And I don't see much prospect of it ending, sadly. I mean, I'm glad to see that after more than a year and a half, Witkoff and Kushner are finally going to visit Ukraine after numerous visits to Russia. But the problem is Trump refuses to put any pressure on Putin. And the only guy who can end this war is Putin himself. And instead of trying to put pressure on Putin, Trump is trying to play a mediator in the middle. And that doesn't work because this is not a war where there's equal culpability on both sides.

1:12:31This is a war where there's an aggressor and there's a victim. Ukraine is the victim. Russia is the aggressor. But Putin And Trump won't even call out Putin's aggression. For example, just in this last month, Russia has been mounting terrorist attacks in Europe, including an attempt to use drones to blow up aircraft, civilian airliners in Germany. Trump won't say a word about it. So if you're giving Putin a pass, he doesn't have any incentive to end his war of aggression. Yeah, I mean, giving him a pass in Europe, giving him a pass when it comes to Ukraine, giving him a pass when it comes to Iran.

1:13:03The president was asked about Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff's trip today in the Oval Office. Here's what he said.

1:13:15Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff are expected to go to Kiev and Moscow. Are they bringing with them new proposals? No, they're bringing with them a proposal to end the war. Because I ended eight wars. I hope you're proud of me. I ended eight wars. I get no credit for it. I ended eight wars. Did I get the Nobel Prize? No. Is that what this is about? Wanting to say that he's ended it so that he can make another play for the Nobel Peace Prize? Yeah, I don't think that's what it's about. I mean, we know that Kushner and Wyckoff have been going all around the world right now making deals. And in my opinion, abusing our foreign policy apparatus to enrich the Trump family.

1:13:53And you see that in this deal they made with the Qatari government for the jet that he's going to be taking on this trip. It sounds like that he's taking soon. And so which I just think is a 400 million dollar bribe because now Qatar has Article 5 like protections for the United States. So I don't trust that Kushner or Whitcoff are doing what's best for the American people. I think they're doing what's best for the Trump family. And Donald Trump couldn't name the eight wars that he's ended because he hasn't. It's just like a weak talking point that I just have never understood. I want to disagree with the idea that the administration hasn't put any pressure on Russia.

1:14:18I'll just read you a headline. Treasury sanctions major Russian oil companies calls on Moscow to immediately agree to ceasefire. That was a year ago. October 22nd, 2025. That was the only time he's ever imposed sanctions. He has not imposed any sanctions since then. What has he done in the last year? You come out here and make sweeping statements. My statements are accurate, Scott. I'm not running to be press secretary of this White House. What has he done? I just wanted to correct the record that this administration has taken a firm hand against the Russians. You did give one example, but that's one example from a year ago.

1:14:49So is there more? Well, I think what they're trying to do right now is get a deal. And it is regrettable that there is no deal. I do agree with you, Max, that the aggressor in this is Putin and Putin needs to end the war. I think it's quite remarkable, actually, what the Ukrainians have been able to do and accomplish. They strike deep into Russia. It's quite remarkable. And and I wish they didn't have to do it because I wish Russia would end the war. And the president is sending his envoys there to do it. So I don't know if they can come home with a deal. I pray that they come home with a deal.

1:15:19This killing is senseless and it is destabilizing for the region. My point is simply to rebut the idea that this administration is somehow pro-Putin when the evidence to the contrary exists for anyone to look it up. They have put sanctions on Russia. They have put pressure on Russia. They want the war to end. They've made clear their intentions. They tried to deal with Putin. He made a huge mistake by walking away from the president when he invited him to Alaska. And now we are where we are. You only really provided a single example. The U.S. Senate just passed a bill that would increase the president's ability.

1:15:52to put pressure on Russia. Again, with his backing. The reason that this, again, I'm wondering, if going into this, you hear negative talk about Ukraine from Besant, and then this is what, I think it's worth hearing in his own words. This is what Trump said when he was confronted with the fact that Russia is actively helping Iran evade our sanctions, evade our attempts to box them in. Listen. Will you punish Putin or Russia if they continue to do business with Iran? So far, I think Russia's behaved quite well having to do with the Strait of Hormuz. And you have to understand, for everything they do, we do also.

1:16:36Somebody was saying about China, what about China? We hear they're spying. We spy on them too. That's where it goes. He won't say anything bad about Russia. This is the problem. By starting the war in Iran, he made it so much more difficult to end the war with Ukraine because he doesn't want Russia to help Iran, which it is. And so he has made us harder. Now we're in these two wars where it's intertwined. And the fact is, Jared Kushner, of all people being sent, first of all, those two do not know how to negotiate. We're still in this war with Iran. And now they're being sent to Ukraine. Jared Kushner is not appointed.

1:17:16He's not elected. He's not a diplomat in any way. He's a special envoy. Well, just because he's a... A special envoy is a... No, Steve Woodcoff is the special envoy. Jared Kushner does not have an official position. He doesn't have a conflict of interest. He doesn't have accountability and transparency like a typical government employee. Jared Kushner, who went into the Middle East and negotiated the Abraham Accords and brought stability to that region, something that he was in the Middle East. He was in the Middle East when he did that. He was in the Middle East when he did that. By any means, but under Jared Kushner, under his leadership and him going into the region and negotiating the Abraham Accords, he brought stability to the region, better stability than there had been for the rest of the region.

1:17:55He was in the administration. Now he wants to act as a private person. You just can't write a guy's negotiating more. I'm curious what you think about the negotiating skill, success or failure of the Kushner-Witkopf duo. I mean, they have a terrible track record. They couldn't end the war between Russia and Ukraine. They can't end the war between the U.S. and Iran. What have they accomplished? I mean, clearly these are not people with a background in diplomacy. And Steve Wyckoff in particular has been criticized by numerous diplomats and former intelligence officers with experience in Russia for being extremely gullible in dealing with Putin.

1:18:31He tends to believe what Putin tells him. This is exactly the wrong approach. Instead of going along with Putin, we need to hammer Putin. We need to put pressure on him. And contrary to what Scott says, the administration simply has not done that. They increased sanctions once on Russia in the course of more than a year and a half. But Russia keeps evading sanctions and the administration is not holding them responsible. And worst of all, this dumb war with Iran, completely unnecessary, unsuccessful, has depleted our inventory of patriots, which means that Ukraine does not have the patriots. It needs to defend itself.

1:19:02And so a lot of Ukrainian civilians are being killed. They are paying the price because of the fact that we have started this unnecessary war that we can't end with Iran. That also makes it harder to end the war between Russia and Ukraine. So the president today was insisting, despite earlier in this very same media availability, calling it a war. He insisted it's not a war. He calls the Iran war a small thing. Listen. Can you explain to the American people, if this is not a war, what exactly is it? Well, I'll tell you what, a lot of people don't call it a war. I call it a military conflict because it's small potatoes for us.

1:19:41It's not a big thing. It certainly doesn't feel like small potatoes. 18 service members have died. We're seeing record-long deployments. You initially said this was last year. Record-long? Why is it record-long? The 82nd Air Force is now going to be extended to a year. How long were we in Vietnam? We're seeing record - No, no, how long were we in Vietnam? The U.S. Abraham Lincoln was out for more than 250 days at sea. And you know what we did in five months? They're not going to have a nuclear weapon. The president characterizing a conflict in which 18 service members have died as small potatoes is not a good look.

1:20:18No, Abby, I certainly would not have characterized it that way. And so I don't agree with that sentiment at all. But I want to push back on a point that Max made earlier. The idea that the United States is out of patriot missiles because we went to war with the number one state sponsor of terrorism, who was a direct threat to the United States for 40 years, has said death to America and wants to kill Americans. and the Ukrainians, it's an issue that the Ukrainians don't have enough to protect themselves. The United States military and the Patriot missiles that you say we've depleted are for the United States and for protecting the American people.

1:20:53I absolutely agree that Russia is the aggressor. And I hate, as Scott said earlier, what's happening in Ukraine. But the idea that it's our problem, our fault, what's happening in Ukraine and our Patriot missiles being depleted against our number one enemy is a major, I have a major, major issue. There was no reason to go to war with Iran in February, even though, yes, it's true, Iran. I disagree with you. The intelligence community disagrees. No, I don't. The intelligence community doesn't disagree with Max. Tulsi Gabbard said they weren't in. At the hands of their own people disagree with you.

1:21:22We absolutely. The only reason Trump went to war with Iran. If you want to argue about how we executed the war, I'd have that conversation. Let me let Max finish his thought. We should absolutely pummel them. Iran is a heinous regime which has been hostile to the U.S. for 40 years, but there is no particular reason to go to war with them in February. The only reason that Trump did so was because he thought he would win this massive victory to four to five weeks, which clearly was a massive miscalculation, which involved him ignoring what his own intelligence community was telling him. All right.

1:21:49Next for us, a new report details just how deep the president's obsession with his construction projects is. We'll tell you the details next.

1:22:09As the midterms kick off, President Trump is clearly preoccupied with all of his prized pet projects. There's the reflecting pool, the triumphal arch, and of course, the ballroom, all of which Trump is building as he submits his legacy across the nation's capital. He told New York Magazine in a new interview, nobody will do it once I'm gone. When I leave, nobody will. Trump has also reportedly become obsessed with his ballroom, that it doesn't matter the subject or the audience. He will talk about it. The president meets with representatives from the ballroom construction crew once a week. And his official calendar is filled with meetings about other capital projects.

1:22:49That is one of the more unusual things about Donald Trump. I mean, we have a history in the office of the presidency of presidents doing this job not because they want self-aggrandizement right now or in the future, but because they're in service to the American people. But Trump wants to be praised. He wants to be his face on everything, his name on everything. That is unusual and different. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. The president's a builder and he gets excited about building things. Sure. I don't know that the timing, if I was advising the president, if the timing is quite appropriate to be having some of these conversations.

1:23:28If I was the president's advisor, I would be telling the president we should be running buckwild across the nation, telling people the plan that we have for the nation and the abysmal plan that the left has by way of the Democrat socialist. So I don't agree that with the timing of this. And yes, people are facing hard times and we're having hard conversations about inflation and the economy. I'd be running around having those conversations about the radical left and probably not about a ballroom or the arch. Can I just jump in on that? The Republicans don't have a plan for the economy. They control all of Congress right now.

1:23:57They haven't really done anything that's helped support the Democrats. Even if that were true? Even if that were true, it still beats the radical left agenda of open borders, getting rid of the police, eliminating the Senate, getting rid of the presidency. You're not talking points. No, we get it. You don't like talking points of Democrat socialist candidates. Let me just ask you a basic question. across the country. None of them are actually saying that. We're wearing a handful of feminists. They are saying it. No, they're not, actually. And they're endorsed by a template. Let me just ask you a question.

1:24:25None of them are saying that. A ton of time. You guys have gotten into it on this before. And I think your point is taken about, your point is taken about the president's priorities. And I think that's really what this story is about. I think the American people, frankly, are sick of hearing about his projects. The Washington Post asked them about their feelings about the ballroom, the arch, the reflecting pool. 38 % said that they're upset. 27 % say that they're dissatisfied. This is an overwhelmingly negative view of this whole concept. And meanwhile, according to the story, the president wakes up every morning.

1:25:01He gazes at the construction site. His son, Eric Trump, says he'll call me at 9.30 at night and say I'm going to go walk over and check the construction of the new ballroom. He's having more fun building the ballroom than I can possibly tell you. What the American people hear when they hear something like that is this is what he cares about, not the things that matter to their pocketbooks. Well, it's interesting to me about all these projects that everybody's carping about. They're actually not for him. They won't be done during his presidency. The ballroom. That's not what he said. The ballroom, if it gets done.

1:25:32He said that the ballroom is going to be done in the summer of 2028. Okay. Well, he leaves office in January 29. So, I mean. Okay. He's trying to make it so that it's done in his presidency. The next president will enjoy it. And whenever they build this arch, I'm pro-arch, by the way, Golden Arches, St. Louis Arch, Arch Support. I love arches. I think the arch is going to be amazing. This is really for him. It's for the next president. It's for the next administration. And so I think looking ahead, having this ballroom, presidents forever are going to enjoy this thing. And by the way, the military is going to love it, too, because it's upgrading our military facility.

1:26:06He said the most honest thing when he said that they're not going to do it after because he's deeply unpopular And he's trying to buy his own legacy because they will not name these buildings after him afterward. Next for us, the panelists are going to react to your feedback from CNN.com slash Abby. We'll be right back.

1:26:31And now for some viewer feedback from CNN.com slash Abby. Here's the first one. The Fed rate and open trade are not directly correlated. He needs to take a civics class high school level. I would make that an economics class. Maybe not so much a civics class. You called it economically literate in the beginning. I think that was right. Just some basic problems with the math here on that one. We've got a fun one for you guys. Do you all go out for a beer or something after the show, or does everyone just quietly get up and go home? I'll go get a beer. This group? It depends on who wins this baseball game.

1:27:06If Scott gets a victory, they've just taken us all out for beers. We're down. We got some baseball on deck. Thank you very much for watching News Night. Laura Coates Live starts right now. This holiday, all plans, even unlimited, are just$15 a month. A holiday deal this good obviously deserves an enormously expensive holiday song, like All I Want. Right. Okay, we can't afford that. You know what? Forget the music budget. We're going to stick with whatever's in the public domain. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required.

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