Al Carns: we are failing Northern Ireland veterans – and why I quit government

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0:36Hello and welcome to Coffeehouse Shots. I'm James Seal and I'm joined today by Al Karnes, who is the Labour Member of Parliament for Birmingham Selly Oak and the former Veterans Minister. Now Al, you write for this week's magazine talking about the government's plans to legislate in the issue of veterans affairs. And you obviously resigned from the government a few months ago. One of the issues was about defence spending, but the other was also the treatment of veterans in Northern Ireland. Tell us about the argument you've set out in this week's magazine. Yeah, so I don't think, I've always been clear with this, I don't think we're too far off.

1:04And we've got to take this right back to the very beginning. We want truth, reconciliation, and justice in Northern Ireland. And unfortunately, the way in which we've gone about this is we've created a twin track approach to truth, reconciliation, justice. On one hand, you have inquiries and inquests at huge cost to the taxpayer, a minimum of£20 million per inquest, a maximum of up to£200 million plus. And then on the other way to get truth, reconciliation, justice, we created the independent commission called ICRA, run by Sir Deacon Morgan. And so we've got two twin track approaches, both moving towards truth, reconciliation, and justice.

1:44One's exceptionally expensive, especially lengthy, and the other is actually really efficiently getting to the truth, bringing people together and providing a really well-fought-through final opinion on what happened during the troubles. Now, if you're a victim and you're sass at the bottom of that and you're looking up, you're always going to want the very noisy individual in the dock and the public inquiry inquest. Well, what I'm saying is we should create one central body that shoots the whole system. And then if there's been a breach in the law, then it can move towards prosecutions, which we know is exceptionally unlikely.

2:18But my view would be do that through the Independent Commission rather than creating this twin track approach. And you also write in the magazine about how there's an information asymmetry. Effectively, the British Army is being penalised for keeping effective records, whereas, of course, the IRA, those on the other side of the troubles, very much did not. So they are being penalised for following due procedure. Well, I mean, that's exactly it. I mean, the reality is the British military keeps very good records, It's usually not all the cases, but usually keeps exceptionally good records. The IRA decommissioned all of their weapons.

2:48There was no records kept. And so when you balance the two together, it's far easier to bring complaints or concerns against the establishment, the British military, the government, than it is against the IRA because there's no evidence to hold, in some cases, the lack of evidence to bring individuals to court. So I'm actually more in the truth and reconciliation space, accepting that the ability to get prosecutions now so long after the event is exceptionally limited. But my point is that we shouldn't be creating a hierarchy of truth. We should be creating one body that does all of the sifting as to what needs to be, to get to the truth, to get to reconciliation, or indeed get to justice.

3:26Don't create a twin track approach because they compete against each other. And one, unfortunately, is exceptionally expensive. And you write about some of the difficulties you had in government. You talk, for instance, about trying to make it clear, inserting into the legislation that His Majesty's Armed Forces are very much not the same equal as the IRA. But you talk about how the 1967 legislation made that impossible because everyone in Overland has to be treated equally. I mean, how difficult was it in Whitehall having these discussions? Well, I mean, I was flabbergasted to be fair. I mean, there's no equivalence between individuals who take up arms to conduct terrorist activities and those in the British military that are often sent to protect life.

4:04And so we really pushed this. And to be fair, Hilary Ben said it multiple times at the dispatch box. But when you put it into law, into legislation, it becomes quite difficult. So we had to work around some of the language, but to state, you know, get that into the legislation, which we finally got there. But I can't describe. I mean, what is a really simple, there is no equivalence between a terrorist and someone in the British military. I mean, that's pretty obvious to me and you. But because of some of the laws and legislation put in place in the past, you can't actually write that into the legislation.

4:32Absolutely bananas. And in some cases, helps explain the difficulties of dealing with Northern Ireland legislation. I've spoken, interestingly, to Chris Bryan on this several times already, and he gets it and he's moving towards hopefully coming up with a good solution to it. I know the Andy Burnham government gets it as well. But it's very difficult to bring three different circles of individuals within Northern Ireland to see things through the same lens because they unfortunately, in a lot of cases, they never will. Tell us about that. You said about Andy Burnham you think might get it. I mean, what conversations have you had about pushing for this to be changed?

5:07Why do you think he'll be different to Keir Starmer? Well, I haven't spoken to Andy Byrne on it, but I've spoken to Chris Bryan, who's a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. And I think he comes at this with an open slate. He's speaking to everybody involved, whether they be veterans, whether they be individuals just caught up in the troubles, or whether they be individuals from the Republican side or from other terrorist organizations that were caught in the fray. And so he will take a very balanced look and I have complete faith and faith that he will he will get to a workable solution. But I reflect back, and you'll see in my piece I wrote for The Spectator, is that I think there's a much bigger game being played here, which is one that if you're 16 years old now in Northern Ireland, you're going to see 15 years worth of usually the state and its veterans or security services being brought back through the courts through inquests and inquiries in a very negative light.

6:01Now, that plays to a political agenda of reunification in Ireland. And I think we've just got to be really conscious that the British military and the state went to Northern Ireland to protect life. And, you know, we're responsible for some casualties, but terrorist organisations were responsible for 90 % of all injuries and casualties in Northern Ireland. And we can't allow people to repaint the history or rewrite the history through the courts. How receptive do you think your Labour colleagues are to this? Because obviously, as you write in your piece, the issue of Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement holds a very important place in the Labour Party's hearts.

6:38You talk about Mo Molan. It's obviously something that a lot of Labour MPs have connections to Ireland. Why do you think maybe more of them haven't taken the issue of veteran prosecutions more seriously? Why are we still talking about this two years into the government? Well, I think a lot of Labour MPs take it very seriously. And I think that's why we've seen legislation come or be presented and then elongated over the two-year period. Because I think as people have gone into the detail, they said, hold on a second, we need to get this right to make sure those that we send to Northern Ireland to protect life are protected in later, latter years of their life.

7:12And secondly, that we come to truth and reconciliation in Northern Ireland because it's really important. You know, there's a moral and ethical argument to this. There's a political argument. And then there's one around a legal argument as well. And then there's a broader strategy of ensuring that we make sure no one rewrites history to suit a political agenda. And I think people do get that. And that's why this legislation is taking so long. When you were in government, which departments were the ones acting as a kind of throwing up some of these issues? Was it the Attorney General's office? Was it the Foreign Office, Northern Ireland office?

7:45Part of this is about Ireland, obviously, but part of this is also about Whitehall concern as well and overcoming that machine. How did you deal with that when you were at the MOD? Well, I've spoken to lots of people who were dealing with the last Legacy Act and the Conservative government. I've spoken to people. This is not just a problem for Labour. This has been a problem for consecutive governments over a huge period of time. I mean, the MOD has, from my perspective, as a minister of the MOD, I was always really clear at the dispatch box. I'm really interested in two or three real things. One was to ensure the families of lost loved ones in Northern Ireland got truth, reconciliation and justice if required.

8:20The second was that British veterans who served in Northern Ireland, the process didn't become the punishment and that they were allowed to rest easy after years of hard service. And the third one, which is probably a broader but more strategic one, was to ensure that we didn't allow any political party in Northern Ireland to rewrite the history that the state was the aggressor. and I think that's the most important as you move towards you know noises of independence referendums in Northern Ireland etc and I think that's what we've got to stay focused on all three of those elements from a from a Ministry of Defence perspective now they they I wouldn't say clash but then you've got to then mould those views with the Northern Ireland office that are taking a lot of the views from the broader Northern Ireland community and come to an amenable solution that meets you know squares a circle which is very difficult to do and i fought tooth and nail to ensure um that veterans were protected but i i lost um i'd run out of road to to argue for that within government because we were creating this twin track approach to truth justice and reconciliation which was going to cost in excess i think recently i think policy exchange came out with analysis up to two billion pounds wow two billion pounds i mean extraordinary figures You're now out of government, as you say.

9:39You've had those positive conversations with Chris Bryant. Where do you see this campaign, your big effort going, maybe over the next 12 months or so? Well, this campaign, this is about just, you know, I resigned on one of the issues. I resigned specifically this. And it's about just ensuring that we come to the right solution. We don't rush to anything in the short term. And we take into consideration the moral and ethics on all sides. We take in the requirement for two, three considerations. justice. And we take into consideration the narrative and the history around Britain's involvement in Northern Ireland, which, yes, in some cases has a checkered, in some cases a checkered past, but on the whole, was a hugely valiant effort by men and women from across this country to secure peace and save life in Northern Ireland.

10:27And we can't allow that to be rewritten by anyone. And this must be very personal for yourself, obviously, a veteran yourself. You met with some of the families affected. I mean, how many people are we talking about being affected by this potential sort of investigation into alleged historic wrongdoing. Well, it's really interesting because you'll hear different numbers banded around. The reality is when we talk about individuals and individual cases, you're probably talking to 20 to 25 veterans. But when you talk about those that will have to come and give evidence or have to give evidence remotely, you're into 150, 200.

10:58Because it may be a private soldier in a guard tower that witnessed an explosion 800 metres away that may have to give evidence to another case from 30 to 40 years ago. Can you imagine remembering 30 to 40 years ago? I mean, it talks to the pointlessness in some of this. So the actual numbers at the centre of this are quite small from a veteran's perspective. But actually, when you look at the broader cases and those who have to come and give evidence as witnesses, you're into 150, 200, I think. But we often just talk about the veteran. I always say if you served in the military, your whole family serves.

11:33And so you're not just affecting that veteran who may be 60, 70, in some cases, 90 years old now. You know, there's a few that were left, but 90 years old now that may be really concerned about having to relive his life from 30 to 40 years ago. Give evidence that he probably will have scant detail on and have to relive what was probably a really traumatic time of where British soldiers had been murdered at a rate, which I wrote in your paper, you know, there's less deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq than there were in Northern Ireland during the whole trouble. So it's a deeply visceral and violent campaign.

12:08And so we're having to put them all back through this and all of the families and all of the dependents. And I don't think that's right. Some unionists and also some in the British military, I think, have maybe detected in the British government or elements of the British government's approach, a slight perhaps bias towards elements of the Republican movement, that they think that the balance of power has been shifted too far in the favour of those who were on that one side of the troubles rather than the other. Did you encounter any kind of institutional bias in your time? Because it does seem that this is a particularly, to some people, egregious case, and people are trying to work out why.

12:41Was there anything you encountered when you were in Whitehall about maybe the balance of power being shifted too far to the Republican side at the expense of the British military? No, what I thought that, and I could be wrong with this, and I'm jumping, but in opposition, I think we could have made more of an effort to talk to veterans about the subject before coming up with the idea of changing the legislation. And that's when the MOD came in, I wouldn't say late, but we came in as soon as we heard about it progressing and then had to inject a veteran's voice into the debate. Because I think people, I don't think it was nefarious.

13:13I just think that we hadn't engaged with the veterans communities because the veteran community as a whole, in a lot of cases around Northern Ireland, was quite fragmented. so they didn't speak as one and so it was really important that they came together and voiced their opinions as a collective group rather than a set of regiments or a set of associations or a set of veterans and i think once that happened i think people sat up and took notice hold on a second that there's a whole nother aspect and hold on a chunk to this pie that we've got to include within the narrative and then that started to change the legislation and move it when we talk about unionists and republicans the reality is i mean let's be absolutely clear, Northern Ireland is part of Great Britain.

13:49And until there's a referendum that says otherwise, that is legal basis. And if you're taking up arms to fight for something different, you break the law on day one of taking up arms. You are a terrorist. It is illegal. Absolutely. I mean, do you think Keir Starmer got this? Because you're talking about lack of consultation with veterans. He obviously was someone who was in Northern Ireland in the early 2000s, very much involved in the peace process there and his role as a lawyer at the time. Do you think he got the strength of feeling and the moral issue at stake here? So I met Keir Starmer officially once, you know, in two years, and that was sat down with the Chief of Defence Staff where he talked through this issue.

14:29And every time I sort of saw that take place or heard about it, you know, he listened and he absolutely registered. But remember, the Prime Minister is dealing with everything from, you know, war in Ukraine to the war in Iran, to the markets. And so this is one section of a huge portfolio. But he paid her time. He sat down with the Chiefs of Defence staff. And this is one of the reasons why the legislation hasn't gone through is because Number 10 intervened and said, hey, we've got to get this right, morally and ethically, politically, and of course, for the future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

15:00And I almost guarantee Andy Burnham will be in the same space. Well, we wait to see how that goes. Thank you very much, Alcantar, for joining us on Coffeehouse Shots today.

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