‘Andy Burnham did the Tories a huge favour’ | Sir Malcolm Rifkind

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0:37Tim Shipman: Hello and welcome to Coffeehouse. I'm James Seal. And I'm Tim Shipman. And today we join Mr Malcolm Rifkin, Foreign Conservative MP, Foreign Secretary and Defence Secretary. Now, over the weekend we had the Reform UK conference. Malcolm, you weren't obviously there. I had not been invited. I suspect I wouldn't have gone even if I had. That's small pleasure denied to you. Not one of the Tory directors to come across. I just wondered what you made of it from afar. Well, I found it was quite an extraordinary phenomenon in political terms because we were told there were several thousand people there.

1:03So there's obviously a lot of support within the reform movement, party, whatever you call it, of the activists. And yet it was a disaster for Farage and for the wider political perspectives because obviously it was dominated by the controversy over improper funding. And of course, when it was first reported, we didn't know how bad it was because then the day later, it turned out the cameras actually saw him present when they were discussing how they would avoid electoral law in providing funding.

1:33James Heale: But he wasn't listening, is what he tells us. Oh, I wasn't listening. It is not entirely impossible. That is technically correct. But it's not good enough. You know, the criteria in a criminal action is beyond reasonable doubt. And if it's not beyond reasonable doubt, you should be acquitted. But in this case, no, he's guilty. On the basis of what we saw, that will have to be investigated. Yeah, and I mean, their defence seems to be that the£500 ,000, at least, was never handed over. My understanding of the law is that if you looked like there might be a reasonable expectation that the money was handed over and that that's what you were planning.

2:13If I may politely put it this way, it doesn't matter a whit whether the money was actually handed over or not. If it is the case that Nigel Farage, as leader of his party, was present when they were actively discussing, and he should have heard and probably did hear, them discussing how by passing the money to this chap's son, they would avoid the risk of being noticed as making improper payments. That's the only thing that matters. Whether it's technically legal or illegal is, in a sense, secondary.

2:47Tim Shipman: And there's obviously a bit of a battle playing out on the right of British politics at the moment now. Kami Badenok is hoping, I imagine, with the upcoming Conservative conference to kind of put some clear blue water between her and reform. But she's obviously made a number of changes to her party, one of which is Tory candidate selections. And I was the one who reported that Grant Chaps had been one of those who'd been blocked from standing again. But you've very much taken against this. you wrote an article for the Times recently, talking about the importance of having a broad church. I mean, tell us why in your thinking.

3:14Well, I think every conservative member of parliament should be a conservative and you should not be considered for selection unless people are satisfied that that is indeed your genuine political beliefs. And they should be satisfied that you also have the integrity and the basic ability to do the job. But, you know, we are the oldest political party in the world. And why have we survived? It is because we are not controlled by some ideological fixation. We have basic principles and values, the rule of law, personal liberty, and so forth, that have survived over the centuries. And fundamental to the Conservative Party has always been we are a broad church.

3:51And that means anyone who's, in general terms, a-conservative and wants to help work with us, we welcome. So I find it very uncomfortable if people, particularly those who've already served as cabinet ministers, who's well known, they've been responsible for a very important public service, Grant Shapps, possibly Penny Mordaunt, we are told. The idea that they cannot even be considered as a parliamentary candidate because they disapprove with current policy on two areas, I think is very, very unattractive. And remember, accepting them on the list, it's not the party headquarters that decide who the candidate will be.

4:27That is the local constituency. And if the local constituency of conservatives disapprove of their views on net zero or on the Convention of Human Rights, well, they will not select them. And the final point, if I may, on this issue, if they do not support the conservative policy on a particular important matter, then it's entirely reasonable for a conservative prime minister not to appoint them to their government. You know, because if you're in the government, you are obliged to support the government's policy. If you're a backbench Conservative member, like every other political party, you have a constitutional right to disagree and vote against the party if you're prepared to live with the consequences of that.

5:06Tim Shipman: I'd imagine that the counter-argument put out by people who remember the Conservative government of the last period, you know, 2021 to 2024, particularly, there were so many rows. It was so explicit. It was absolute chaos. And I mean, her argument would be, you've got to agree on, once you concede the principle that there are Conservative values and Conservative core beliefs, then we get into the pattern of where do you draw that if we don't want to become too broad a church? I don't disagree with that. And that's entirely sound and proper. And that's essentially not what I was referring to. What has been done is two particular issues that have been selected.

5:38Now, they're important issues, the European Convention of Human Rights, net zero, but they're not fundamental as the crucial test of whether you are a legitimate conservative member of parliament. They are temporary issues, incidentally. They will be resolved one way or the other in both cases, and they may not even be relevant come the next general election because they may already have been determined. I don't know about that.

5:58James Heale: I think Bednock's argument would be that maybe conservatism has changed or the context has changed and you always need to reapply those principles in a different age. I think you're making two distinctions, if I'm correct. One is the difference between principle and policy and the other is between being a backbencher and being part of a frontbench team. It seems to me that's where you think there's legal. I think that's right. And I understand also why Kemi's doing it. I mean, she's doing it for entirely understandable and reasonable explanation. She wants to present the Conservative Party at the next general election as a new force of conservatism.

6:31And I remember when I lost my seat like everybody else did in 1997 when Tony Blair won. And when I decided I wanted to come back into Parliament, there were some difficulties because I was seen as somebody of the factory. And whether it was William Hague or David Cameron, they weren't terribly interested, however able you might have been.

6:50James Heale: Well, and go back a bit further. I mean, we go to sort of 1979 to 81. The Tory party was in a huge ferment, wasn't it? Where Margaret Thatcher was setting essentially new beliefs and new rules and people like Pryor and Pym and Ian Gilmore, their faces didn't fit then. Let me take Margaret Thatcher because I served in her government, in her cabinet. Margaret Thatcher very wisely did two things. She knew that her cabinet had to represent the whole spectrum of conservatives in the House of Commons. It mustn't just be drives. It must be some wets as well. But she was equally firm. She was damned if she was going to make any wet, as she would call them, an economics minister involved with the Treasury or that kind of policy.

7:33So people like Ken Clarke, and dare I say it myself, who were on the sort of one nation end of the Conservative Party, she didn't exclude us from the government. I was appointed as a minister in the Foreign Office. I eventually was appointed to her cabinet as Secretary of State for Scotland. We had strong disagreements on certain Scottish issues. That's a separate matter. But she was wise enough and effective enough to know that that had to be the situation. Now, I think Kemi Tink thinks exactly the same. I don't think she has different views. But at this moment in time, so disastrous was the results at the last general election, and so tainted is the recollection that you were part of the Trust government or the Boris Johnson government, you know, that is a big downside, even if you were occasionally rebels in those governments.

8:18I think that's what's behind it.

8:19James Heale: And it's all a response to reform, ultimately. I mean, you say reform had a disastrous conference, and in some ways, I think that's absolutely right. But those of us that were there know there was huge passion. The people there didn't care about what Channel 4 produced. And I think they think a lot of their voters don't care, either. Well, I go along with that. And that's certainly true. Personally, I think that caps their upside. It caps their ability to steal some of the sort of... But we know reform is in decline. And it's in decline not just for one reason. It's not just because of Farage's personal problems about how he receives money, the five million pounds and whatever.

8:50That's part of it. He has become a figure from the past. He's not a new leader. I mean, he's been around for 25 years now. And he's a very fine campaigner, as we all know, some of us to our cost. But he's run out of things to say. So the Reform Party was a protest. When I say the conservatives who moved to it, was a protest against the failures of the end of the last conservative government and the reputation that that represented. Now, that doesn't mean everything's going to be fine and dandy in two or three years' time. But what it does mean is they have not, when you listen to what they are saying, Mr.

9:25Jenrick, for example, or Suella Braverman, who are themselves, of course, figures from the last conservative government, there's nothing that is both interesting and deliverable. It's an interesting distinction. That we have not heard. It's got to be both. It's got to be both. It's got to be deliverable. Otherwise, it doesn't carry credibility.

9:42Tim Shipman: Well, I'm curious, Sir Malcolm, what do you make of the most recent Conservative shadow cabinet reshuffle? Who are the ones you think are saying interesting and deliverable things on that front bench? Well, I was very, very pleased because what Akemi is doing is building up the inner core of her shadow cabinet. The senior member, the people who would be representing what are often called the great departments of state are now people with the credibility and the background they sound as if they're being made for that job. They're the right people. And Tom Tugendhat, for example, has been wasted for several years not being given senior responsibility.

10:17And the job she's given him is the perfect one for Tom. I know him reasonably well. He's not a close friend. But, you know, he was not only a successful soldier, but he was a very good minister of national security and did that job very, very well. So it's right he should be in the cabinet, but particularly a shadow foreign secretary. That is an example of very good judgment. And the same applies to the new shadow chancellor, and others doing their jobs.

10:42James Heale: What did you take from the shadow chancellor change? Because that's obviously the big one. Well, I don't know him personally, but I've made a point of finding out about him since he was appointed. And what you want particularly in a chancellor, potential chancellor, is somebody who has this extraordinary ability to understand economics and how the treasury works and so forth. And he does have, because of his background. He's done that kind of work. I remember Alec Douglas-Schum once said, there have been two great problems in my public life. The political ones were insoluble and the economic ones incomprehensible.

11:17And, you know, if I at any time in my career had been offered, I did four cabinet jobs. If anybody had been foolish enough to ask me, you know, the prime minister had said, I'd like you to be chancellor of the Exchequer. I'd say, I demand a recount. You know, it's not just that I would find it a relatively boring job because you're dealing with numbers and technical details all the time. It also means you shouldn't do that job unless you have a basic grasp, not of the generalities of economics, but the mechanics of it. The role of the Treasury, the role of the markets and how they operate. You've got to have a feel for that, as Rishi Sunak had extremely well.

11:54James Heale: Yeah, and I think Andrew Griffith, I think there's a thing been doing the rounds saying he's got more private sector experience than the whole of the cabinet combined, which is, you know, precisely. And that should be when you're trying to persuade the public and particularly lapsed conservatives that a new conservative government, which can't be for less than two or three years' time, but they will be not just saying the right things, but having the right people with Kemi as prime minister and with a new Home Secretary and a new Foreign Secretary who carry out those responsibilities.

12:25Tim Shipman: I think it would be fair to say the new shadow camera reshuffle has gone quite well. I think there's some round pegs and some round holes, as you say. Andrew Griffith being the shadow chancellor, the only former FTSE 100 boss in the House of Commons right now. And that's very much the job he always wanted. But, you know, you do look at the polling. It's still below where it was when Kemi Bader not took over as leader. It's still down on 2024. What advice would you give her over the next 18 months or so? Right. Well, we've got this remarkable phenomenon because you're quite right. The party's still in the doldrums in terms of its share of the vote of the polls are correct.

12:54And the polls are almost certainly correct. But Kemi is, if I can put it this way, the least unpopular of the party leaders. She constantly does extremely well compared to all the other party leaders. Farage is hopelessly the most unpopular of the party leaders. And that suggests we're in an interesting situation here. You said, what advice would I give her? Well, I actually was chatting to Kemi Badenoch just a couple of weeks ago. We met at an event, and I had not met her before, because she came into the House of Commons after I'd retired. And we had an interesting conversation. And as soon as I saw I was going to meet her, I thought, right, I'm only going to have five minutes, because people were queuing up to talk to her.

13:35What shall I say? And I knew exactly what I was going to say. I said, Kemi, you might like to know that I came into parliament in 1974, the year Margaret Thatcher became leader of the Conservative Party. And for that first year or so, the whole speculation was, is she up to the job? Would she make a good prime minister? Would she be tough enough? What experience does she have? She's only been an education minister in Heath's government. And then gradually the public mood changed. And people began to realize in the first year. I remember at the very beginning of that period, one member of parliament, I won't mention the name of the person concerned, was asked at a meeting of people, what does Margaret Thatcher know about foreign policy, which at the time was relatively little.

14:19He came up with a most brilliant reply. You probably know what I'm about to say. He said she knows so little about foreign policy that she thinks that Sinai is the plural of Sinus. That unfortunately appeared in the gossip columns the following day.

14:34Tim Shipman: I think he was accredited to Jonathan Aitken as well.

14:37James Heale: That's exactly it, as you know already. Which went down really well when Jonathan Aitken started dating Margaret Thatcher's daughter.

14:43Tim Shipman: I mean, we look abroad in the foreign situation as well, Malcolm, because obviously I think that what Tom Tugendhat's done as Shadow Foreign Secretary is in his first intervention in The Telegraph of the weekend, he was talking about sort of how Ed Miliband's policy on potentially putting sanctions on Israel is going to potentially... I mean, where you see Britain's role going in all of this and the kind of opportunities for the Conservatives to strike out a kind of distinctive policy on it? I think Miliband's policy is quite risky from a United Kingdom point of view. We've got to be frank about this.

15:13Miliband and any Labour foreign secretary or prime minister are influenced by how unexpectedly well hard-left pro-Palestinian activists did. At the last general election, they won four seats in safe Labour seats when Labour was winning huge numbers elsewhere. And the same has happened with losing support to the Greens and all that type of thing. So there's a lot of nervousness there. But on the issue of sanctions, I think the point I would want to make is it's not just a question of whether... The sanctions are meant to be not against Israel generally, but against activity by Israeli settlers in the West Bank, which is illegal and very controversial.

15:57The more practical question is, is it actually possible to implement sanctions which are designated, directed against the West Bank settlers? I mean, this stuff bluntly isn't labelled West Bank, it's just labelled Israeli. And everything I know about that, which is not, I'm not an expert, but from what I know about it, it's almost impossible to make that distinction. So you shouldn't start down that road if you know you can't actually deliver it in the limited way that you're intending.

16:20James Heale: I mean, the public view is not probably the view of most people at The Spectator, which is broadly supportive of Israel and its right to defend itself from the context of everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. But the public view is clearly different to that. It's 60, 70 percent, you know, would call themselves pro-Palestinian in this country. What would be the loss, in your view, of losing that trading relationship with Israel? Does it risk the intelligence relationship, which we're told is strong? I will try to answer that. Before I do, I'm going to make a more general point.

16:50The way you began that question was entirely fair about people who are pro-Palestinian as opposed to pro-Israeli. But in a sense, it's a bit misleading. Because many people who are intensely pro-Israeli deeply deplore Netanyahu and the way he fought the Gaza war. Not his right to attack the Hamas. That was completely justified. But the way in which they appear to be indifferent to the number of civilian casualties and have continued to be. Now, whether that's fair or unfair, that is what has caused great resentment. And on the question of the Palestinian issue, it's not the Palestinians versus the Israelis.

17:28It is on whether there should be a two-state solution, whether the way out of this terrible dilemma is for the West Bank to be allowed to become a Palestinian state. Now, whether that's good or bad, that is what has divided people. In terms of your more specific question as to what would be the implications in terms of intelligence issues of that kind, well, that would be for the Israeli government to decide. Because at the end of the day, the Israeli government need the United Kingdom or France or Germany or other European countries more than they need Israel. Now, I don't think it'll come to that.

18:01And remember, in any event, it may be overtaken by events. Israel's having a general election in October. And it could be rather like Viktor Orban, that a prime minister who is very unpopular is going to be replaced.

18:11James Heale: But in that context, I know there were Israeli diplomats who thought a little curious that Labour wanted to move on this so quickly. I know the messages going privately to Downing Street were, well, hang on, sit tight here, because this might all change. But Miliband and Burnham both seem to sort of really make a point for the reasons that you state. You know, they were keen to get their sort of brownie points from the left, rather than do what might have been a sort of more cautious and considered foreign policy move. I think you're Well, correct. And I think it was a tactical decision for foolish reasons.

18:45Precisely the point we make, there's a general election coming up. If all the opinion polls in Israel show that Netanyahu is going to lose a substantial amount of support and almost certainly will not have a majority, what we don't know is who's going to form the new coalition and where their views will be changed. They could hardly be worse, if I may say so, because the damage that Netanyahu has done is, first of all, he hasn't delivered what he set out to deliver. The Iranian regime is stronger than it's been for quite some time. And at the same time, Hamas and Hezbollah still exist. They were meant to disappear.

19:17James Heale: And they seem to have alienated a lot of opinion in the United States as well, which is potentially more problematic for them, isn't it? That is right. And Israel, at the end of the day, is a small country. It's only got a population of 9 million people. I think it's wrong to say it depends on America or on other countries, but it benefits enormously from the very close relationship it's had, not just with the United States, which has been exceptional and which is declining, even under a Trump administration, but also from European countries, which is more serious. And so from a point of view of just diplomatic common sense, they're making, Netanyahu's making the same mistakes as Trump makes, alienating his friends, not just annoying his enemies.

19:54Tim Shipman: I just wonder as well, as you're a former foreign secretary, the big thing for the Labour government over the past two years has been trying to do business with a Trump administration which is not necessarily politically aligned. I just wonder what you made of that US-UK relationship over the past couple of years. We've still got another two years of Trump. Obviously, the mid-terms, he may well lose a huge amount of support and have his hand bound to a certain extent. But I just wonder what you made of how the government has handled that so far. Dealing with Trump is like the Cold War. You do not know, in fact, it's easier than dealing with the Cold War.

20:26The Cold War could have gone on forever and could have become a hot war at any stage. At the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, it almost did. And you never knew how it was going to end. And it ended totally unexpectedly with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Gorbachev administration and so forth. In Trump's case, we know it comes to an end in just under two years from now. We've lived with Trump already for one full term and half his second term. It's been a miserable experience. He's done huge damage, not just a question to Europe, huge damage to America's interests because America is no longer trusted.

21:03Some of the polls suggest that other countries around the world now trust China more than they trust the United States. Now, trust, this is not to do with other questions of detail. This is, well, and even the Iranians, whom I deplore and detest, the regime, said, what's the point of doing a deal with Trump that meets his requirements? Because he could drop it six months from now, you know, on a whim. He is a disastrous president in terms of being the leader of the most powerful country in the world. And it is a deep tragedy. And we have to completely remind ourselves, unfortunately, half of America voted for him.

21:40And therefore, he's there quite lawfully. But the quicker his presidency comes to an end, I'm not saying everything will go back to where we were.

21:48James Heale: I was going to say, because a lot of people in government would say they're preparing for the idea that a lot of this stuff is becoming entrenched. Views of China, Europe, NATO, all of that stuff is pretty well established on the American right. And if you think about the primacy of China over Europe, that's shared by the Democrats as well. Let me make a point that might surprise you. Because my opinion of J.D. Vance, the vice president, is not exactly 100 % friendly towards him. I would be much less worried by a Vance presidency than a Trump presidency. And for one particular reason, with all his faults, so far as we know, Vance is not reckless.

22:25He does not wake up in the morning and put on social media some sudden hatred for some friendly government.

22:32James Heale: Well, we woke up this morning and Trump had posted about 15 different AI videos, one of which had him blowing up Carg Island in Iran. Now, Vance could be dangerous. He has very radical views, but he wants to be president. If he ever did become president, he'd be his own man. but on past that we know about, he would be willing, before he reached decisions, to discuss with the diplomats or the officials or the military who know more about the subject than he does or any president could and then he would make up his mind. And you presumably feel the same about Rubio as well. Yes, yes. Now, you know, I hope it'll be a change of party because I think the Republican Party, until it gets its traditional Republican identity back, is going to be more risky than a democratic government.

23:21I can say these things. I don't have to be diplomatic in what I say. I don't have to be diplomatic.

23:26James Heale: But they're going populist on the Democrat side as well, aren't they? You know, I mean, there's talk of AOC being the Democrat kind of candidate. She's pretty radical and surprising as well, I would have thought. Yeah, well, there's all sorts of possibilities. If the Democrats are foolish enough to appoint a fringe person as their national candidate, they won't win and nor deserve to win. as they themselves know. But, you know, it's the famous Churchill remark, you can always rely on the United States to do the right thing after it's tried every other option. And that's what it's been doing the last few years.

23:59Do you feel the same about the Conservative Party?

24:01James Heale: I mean, we're cycling back to where we began, I guess. Sure. How optimistic are you that it's possible for the Conservatives to win the next general election? Look, you know, too few politicians read the history of their own country and their own political party if they have one. Now, yes, our general election three years ago, two years ago, whatever it was, was a total disaster. But, you know, for a party that has existed since the 1700s, the oldest political party in the world, even in modern times, we've had as big disasters. Dare I say it in 1906, when the Liberals won after a long period of Lord Salisbury and Arthur Balfour, it was a disastrous setback.

24:44Quite a disastrous setback. 1945, Churchill just won the war, and the Labour Party threw him out. 1997, Tony Blair wins not just the election, but a huge majority and gets re-elected three times. You know, so don't tell me this is something unique. The detail's different. The personalities are different. But if the Conservative Party actually sticks to its basic principles, and may I make one additional point? Burnham, we haven't hardly mentioned Burnham in this discussion, is a huge advantage from the Conservative point of view compared to Starmer. Why? Not just because he will be more effective in seeing off reform, but also he has deliberately chosen a more left-wing agenda.

25:29Starmer was actually in the Blair tradition. He was a pretty rotten prime minister, but in terms of where he stood in the pantheon, He was closer to Blair than to the left of the party.

25:41James Heale: Perhaps rhetorically, if not in terms of policy, but in terms of where he wanted to sound like he was position. Exactly. Now, but in comparison, Burnham has exactly the opposite objective. He is saying, we are the traditional working class party. We are proudly left of centre. No, we're not going to nationalise everything, but there will be more government. Now, what that is emphasising itself to the wider public is that long last, we have a clear choice as to which our government should be. Kemi Badloch, unindisputably offering a traditional conservative policy spectrum on low taxation, on less government control, except where governments have to involve themselves for whatever reason, a sound, robust foreign policy.

26:26On that, on the other side of the coin, a Labour government proudly saying, we are more left-wing and that means more taxation. That's the other crucial point.

26:35James Heale: It sounds like you think Burnham's probably better for the Labour Party than Starmer, but also better for the Conservative Party. Yes, I do think that. And I think that is right. And I hope that Burnham will become leader of the Labour Party for two reasons. First of all, because whether we like it or not, Labour is going to be in power for at least another two or three years. And I want this country to improve in that period, not decline further. Whoever is the prime minister of the day in Burnham is more likely, not certain, more likely to deliver a better result than Starmer was. Because of his basic knowledge of politics and his ability to perform.

27:04Exactly right. So I think in the national interest, that is worthwhile. But I think also it will emphasize where we are now to the wider public, in particular to those who have ceased, I hope, temporarily to support the Conservative Party, that the all choice which sustained the Conservative Party over many generations has come back. that Burnham, this is not just making an accusation against Burnham, Burnham is proudly saying, my government will be more left-wing than Labour governments have been since that Tuesday. That's what he said, express them. And the next logical question, I guess, Sir Malcolm, is, look, if reform,

27:43James Heale: it sounds like you don't think this will happen, but if reform did have more seats than the Conservative Party, how would you feel about putting Nigel Farage into Downing Street rather than this increasingly left-wing Labour Prime Minister? Well, let me say first, I thought one of the best decisions that Burnham took when he became leader of the Labour Party was to rule out going for an early general election. Because a lot of people were saying, well, you've got to have a mandate and you'll win. And he took the right decision, not because he wouldn't have got a mandate, he would have won. But the overwhelming likelihood at this moment in time, if the polls are correct, is that reform would have come second.

28:19Right? And Starmer, not Starmer, forgive me, Farage, would have become the leader of the opposition with at least 100 seats instead of the eight seats he has at the moment. So Burnham did the Conservative Party, as well as the National Interest, a huge favor by not having an early general election, not because he wouldn't have won it, but because it would have transformed at this moment. Now, reform is now not flat on its back, but it's had a series of by-elections. It's been unable to win. There's a major by-election coming up in Holborn when the Starmer's old seat, where the alternative will be the Greens, not reform.

28:55And that has a cumulative impact. They're a party of losers, reform, not even potential winners in the way that they were even a few months ago. Now, that can reverse. I'm not saying this is irreversible. But so bad has been Farage's performance and so damaged is he in terms of his perceived integrity and credibility as a potential prime minister. receiving five million pounds and not telling anybody about it. It's going to be quite difficult for them.

29:24James Heale: But if you don't mind my saying that's a very elegant way of saying I don't accept the premise of the question and not actually answering it. I misunderstood the question. Should the Conservative Party be prepared to put him in to stop Birmingham ultimately? No, not in a remotely conceivable case. First of all, the national interest would suffer tremendously. A reformed government is not fit to govern because we know who their leadership is. They're either discredited conservatives Or there's Farage himself Who, whatever his buccaneering skills might be His public relations skills might have been in the past Which were impressive It's one thing to campaign It is another to govern And he has not shown the slightest evidence That he's capable of government So the last thing we wish to do Is to help him in that direction

30:11Tim Shipman: Well, I think that's all we have time for Thank you very much Sir Malcolm Thank you Tim And thank you for watching coffee us

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