Chris Philp: French police 'under orders not to intervene'

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0:38Noa Hoffman: hello and welcome to coffeehouse shots i'm noah hoffman and today i'm delighted to be joined by the shadow home secretary chris philp now chris has been on the ground in france at the front line of the small boats crisis he's been watching as dozens of illegal migrants hurl themselves onto dinghies setting sail for the UK. Chris, can you tell us a bit about your experience so far? Hello. Well, look, first of all, it really just exposed the crisis happening in our borders. I was on the ground in France earlier this week on Wednesday. I saw hundreds of illegal migrants attempting the crossing. We started off at four o 'clock in the morning.

1:20We tracked a group from a camp in some woodland back from the coast. We then followed them to the beach, along the beach for about three miles with no French police in sight at all. They then stopped at a rendezvous point, joined some other illegal immigrants, making a group of about 100 in total. And then the French police did turn up. But what was shocking is the French Gendarme Nationale, supposedly an elite unit, did nothing whatsoever while the migrants, the illegal immigrants hung around for about three hours waiting for the boat. They did nothing. They could have called in extra forces.

1:55They could have dispersed the migrants. They didn't do any of those things. The migrants then crossed about 100 metres of sand to the water's edge. The gendarmes did nothing then. The migrants got in the water about knee deep. I got in the water with them. I was standing right next to the boat. I identified the people smuggler. In fact, I'm going to be putting out a video which shows who that people smuggler was. He was organizing the migrants. He was starting the engine. And the gendarmes did nothing. They wouldn't even enter the water, even though it was only knee deep or most waist deep. I was standing right next to the boat, looking into the people smugglers eyes.

2:31He started shouting abuse at me. The gendarmes still did nothing. And after the boat had gone, I went over to the 10 or so gendarmes, they were armed and said, like, why are you doing anything? And they said they were under orders not to intervene. I thought that was extraordinary. These are the same gendarmes that we are paying for. Shabana Mahmood is paying for those gendarmes with taxpayers' money, a total of£660 million, and they're refusing to intervene. The Belgians, to be fair, do intervene, both successfully and safely, but the French don't. And those 100 people I saw are now, I think, in the UK, probably in a hotel somewhere near you, thanks to Shabana Mahmood's deal completely failing.

3:13And then when Andy Burnham said it's under control, I thought that was laughable. And I was there on the beach, in the water, next to the illegal immigrants and the people smuggler, witnessing it with my own eyes. So for Andy Burnham to say that shows that he is out of his depth and out of touch as well.

3:27Noa Hoffman: It's worth pointing out that as things stand, only police officers from a specialist unit called Compagnie de Marche have the authority to intervene, whereas the police you saw didn't have that authority, as we found out. There are only 50 of those Compagnie de Marche officers, 50, and of whom at a given point in time, probably only 10 or 15 are on duty. We are paying for hundreds of gendarmes. They're elite officers. They're armed. They're not like PCSOs. They're armed elite French officers, and they were standing there doing nothing. And I think that is unacceptable. We're paying for them, and they literally have orders to do nothing.

4:02Noa Hoffman: Did you speak to any of the migrants? Yes, I did. I challenged the people smuggler directly, who responded by sparing at me and throwing things at me. I did, by the way, the people smuggler got off the boat afterwards. And I asked the gendarme, I pointed him out to the gendarme and said, will you arrest him? And they refused to make the arrest, even though he was obviously in charge of the operation. Did they say why? They claimed there was not enough evidence, which is ridiculous because we'd seen him. I had video footage of him starting the engine. And we all saw, including the gendarmes who were also videoing on their own mobile phones, we saw him directing the migrants to push the boat off.

4:37And then he jumped off the boat, walked back to shore and was talking to the NGO, the Open Borders NGO activists with whom he was clearly in cahoots. They are also, by the way, a complete disgrace. And despite seeing all of this, the gendarme didn't arrest him. I've got a video of this guy and I'm going to be releasing it later. to answer your question i did speak to a number of the migrants both in the camp in the woodland walking along the beach and even on the boat itself as it was preparing to embark while i was standing in the water next to it and they were in the dinghy and uh there i've got to say a lot of these people don't speak english um i'm sorry to say that uh contrary to the um uh the narrative by um people like uh jonathan portes i'm afraid to say these gentlemen they are almost all young men, by the way, they are not doctors and engineers.

5:24Most of them can't speak English. Many are from sub-Saharan Africa, from countries like Eritrea. And essentially, they have heard that if you go to the UK, you get put up in a hotel, and that you've got almost no chance of getting deported. And you know what, they're right, because only 5 % of small boat illegal immigrants get deported, the other 95 % stay. And that is why we need to have a complete change of approach in the UK. We need to leave all of these legal structures like the ECHR. We need to get rid of the Immigration Tribunal, get rid of immigration legal aid and all these lawyers. And if somebody enters our country illegally, we need to deport them within a week back to their country of origin, if possible, or a safe third country, if not, with no court proceedings, no modern slavery claims, no human rights claims, no asylum claim, nothing, just immediate deportation.

6:15And if we do that, pretty quickly, the crossings will end because why would those illegal immigrants leave France if they know they're going to get deported? Australia did it about 13 years ago and it worked very rapidly. Within about a couple of months, the illegal crossings they experienced simply stopped. And until we do that, these crossings will continue. Shabana Mahmood, in the meantime, needs to get a grip of the deal with the French. So they start acting like the Belgians do. They should just act as the Belgians do. That would help as well. But I think until we take that tough action to deport these people immediately, the crossings are going to continue.

6:51And by the way, before anyone says, oh, you can't deport them. Well, yesterday, Germany deported 31 Afghan men back to Afghanistan. So even with Afghanistan, you can deport people back to that country. And if for any reason you can't deport to the country of origin, you need a safe third place like Rwanda. So it's completely possible. The Australians have done it. Even the Germans are now beginning to do it, and our government should too. But I'm concerned Andy Burnham's remarks this week shows that Burnham is out of touch and out of his depth.

7:22Noa Hoffman: Yeah, I mean, I very much remember growing up in Australia when this was the salient issue of the day, and there was so much backlash to the idea of offshore processing. Of course, all the human rights organisations were doing their thing. There was a lot of noise, but the plan did work. And Labour governments that have come in in Australia after the Liberal government that implemented the initial plan under Tony Abbott to stop the boats have kept the entire plan because it does work. And there is now no issue with small boats in Australia. But of course, there are a few other differences, one being the geographical distance between Indonesia and Australia and France and the UK.

7:58You know what, Benoa, it's the principle that's important. And the principle is if someone tries to enter your country illegally by boat, you just deport them straight away. Now, the length of the crossing doesn't it doesn't really make a difference. The principle is the same. And whether you deport them to Nauru, as Australia did, or whether you deport them back to their country of origin or to Rwanda, doesn't really matter. The point is they get immediately deported with no court case. Now, you're right. In Australia, I spoke to Tony Abbott about this last autumn. And Tony said to me in his very direct Australian way that all of the NGOs and the liberals and the charities and all the kind of hysterical people on the left were wailing and gnashing their teeth about how mean this was to the illegal immigrants.

8:38But the fact was it did work and it worked quickly, worked within a couple of months. And the key point is not. So firstly, the left-wing governments in Australia kept the policy because it worked, but also it saved lives because before this policy was introduced by Tony Abbott's government in, I think it was September 2013, they were getting 50 ,000 illegal maritime arrivals per year. And I mean, I think hundreds of people were dying. I mean, there have been this week, there have been at least four tragic deaths in the channel. There were even more deaths in Australia because the distances were larger.

9:07After this policy got implemented, the number of maritime deaths for illegal immigrants was zero because the crossings were stopped. So these hysterical left-wing so-called charities and all these left-wing people who say, oh no, let the boats keep coming, they're actually causing people to die by supporting the routes that are happening. That is the truth of it. Some of them say, oh, well, if you let everybody in, you should just let people come into the UK legally. Well, that's not going to stop the boats unless you let in everyone who wants to enter legally, which would be millions or possibly even tens of millions of people.

9:40So that is obviously not a solution. And so the Australian example is very instructive. It works, it works quickly, and it saves lives. And that's really the lesson that we conservatives have learned. I've spoken to Tony, Tony Abbott, in detail about this, and our policy is in large measure based on theirs. By the way, the Americans, when the second Trump administration came in, started doing something similar. We wouldn't do it exactly the same, but they started doing something similar with illegal immigrants across the Mexican border. They started it in February of last year and by about May of last year, so within three months, the number of illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican border, which is a 3 ,000 mile land border, had gone down 80 or 90 percent.

10:19So pretty clear case studies.

10:20Noa Hoffman: Chris, I want to get into the Labour politics of illegal migration with you. But before I do so, we cannot have this full podcast without addressing the fact that this crisis really did exacerbate under the Tory government that preceded this Labour one. You were in the Home Office. I know I'm sure you've been asked this many times, but our listeners will be very keen to hear why you weren't able to get a grip of this farce when you were in the Home Office. And can you just take us through the journey you've been on from that point to where you are now with your new borders plan with your mandate to leave the ECHR.

10:57Noa Hoffman: What's changed for you? And why were you not able to have, you know, this really rigorous plan while you were in government and the boats came flooding in and flooding in? Yeah, so I was most recently police minister in the Home Office. And we delivered record police numbers and falling crime, which I'm proud of. But on your kind of wider question, I mean, it's worth remembering that the last government did manage to cut the boat crossings by a third in the last full year 2023. And there was the Rwanda plan that was ready to go, but Labour cancelled it just before it was due to start. But I have, to be honest, come to the realisation in recent years that you basically can't stop illegal immigration with like half measures, and you can't stop it within the current legal order.

11:40And if I was to identify a mistake of the past, and just be completely honest about it, previous governments, including previous conservative governments, attempted to fix illegal immigration inside the legal framework of the ECHR, the modern slavery legislation, endless judicial reviews, the ability of the courts to endlessly intervene to stop the government deporting illegal immigrants and foreign criminals. And I gave a speech to Policy Exchange on this a few weeks ago. I came to the realisation that inside those legal systems and those legal structures, it is basically impossible for the government to control our borders.

12:19David Wolfson wrote a brilliant paper on this about a year ago, explaining how inside the ECHR, any government of any party basically can't stop illegal immigration because the courts just constantly intervene. So I've reached the conclusion, we need to completely dismantle that entire legal architecture, which includes the ECHR, repealing the Human Rights Act, exiting the ECAT treaty, that's the Modern Slavery Treaty, substantially amending the Modern Slavery Act so modern slavery claims can no longer suspend the deportation of illegal immigrants and foreign criminals, getting rid of the Immigration Tribunal completely, abolishing immigration legal aid and preventing almost all judicial reviews of immigration matters.

13:01That basically takes the courts and lawyers completely out of immigration matters, whether it's foreign criminals or illegal immigrants. And if you do that, the government, the democratically elected government, can basically do what it's elected to do, which is kick out every foreign criminal and deport illegal immigrants. But the word described is a very radical demolition, really, of the legal system around immigration. But if you don't do that, the courts just constantly stop you. So that's the conclusion I've reached, and Kemi has reached it as well. Completely dismantle our legal architecture.

13:37Then we can do things like deport illegal immigrants within a week of arrival, with no messing around like the Australians do. So you may say that should have been done five years ago. It wasn't. Instead, previous governments attempted to fix the problem within those legal structures. It didn't work. Labour has tried subsequently to work on illegal immigration inside those legal structures. It hasn't worked either. Shabana Mahmood's bill, I said this in Parliament a couple of weeks ago, she is still trying to work inside the legal structures by trying to tighten this up and tighten that up. It doesn't work.

14:11We tried it in government. It does not work. The only thing that's going to work is a radical overhaul. That is the conclusion I've reached. And, you know, I was able to, with David Wilson's support and with Kemi's support, we persuaded the Shadow Cabinet that that was the right approach to take. The Shadow Cabinet has unanimously agreed that. So is the wider Conservative Party. And that's why it's so important, by the way, that any Conservative standing at the next election has to sign up, literally, to ECHR withdrawal, because it is so fundamental. If we don't do that, we can't do the other things.

14:40And the public are going to ask the question that you asked. And we need to be able to show that the next Conservative government means business and won't mess around. And that's why every single Conservative candidate, including sitting MPs at the next election, has to sign up to the ECHR policy. Because without that, we can't fix everything else.

14:57Noa Hoffman: Chris, we obviously have a new Prime Minister who has been on a policy blitz. He's been speaking on a range of issues, including those that previous governments have sort of left to the wayside, such as social care. But funnily enough, one topic seems to be off the agenda for Andy Burnham's policy blitz and his various visits. And that is, of course, the issue of immigration. He's made one small comment about it when asked by GB News. And that was to say that Labour's plan to smash the gangs is going very well, according to Burnham. What's your response to his positive outlook on the small boat situation from being in France?

15:39Well, I think Andy Burnham is completely deluded and completely out of touch. I mean, the day after he said that, claimed the problem was fixed. I was on a French beach surrounded by illegal immigrants with a people smuggler directing operations while the French gendarmes did nothing. And on that day, which I think was Wednesday of this week, we believe in hundreds and hundreds of illegal immigrants across the channel. And I spoke to a skipper of the fishing boat. I was out on the day before Tuesday. And he said that the reason the numbers are down a bit this year as a whole is not down to any government action.

16:13It's because the sea in the channel has been quite rough this year. In fact, you have to cancel a number of fishing ships because the sea has been rough. The only thing protecting our borders right now is the weather. Burnham is totally out of touch with reality. He's completely deluded. As you say, he doesn't even want to discuss the issue because he's an open borders campaigner, open borders Burnham. In the past, he said that illegal immigrants should be allowed to work the minute they claim asylum. Well, I mean, that will create a huge pull factor, an even bigger pull factor. And what is the point of having work visas if you let illegal immigrants work as soon as they turn up on a dinghy?

16:48That's ridiculous. He also, when he was mayor of Manchester, was campaigning to make it easier for illegal immigrants and others to claim benefits, which is, I think, absolutely outrageous benefits funded by the British taxpayer. So to the extent Andy Burnham has expressed any views on immigration, they are open borders views. And he clearly doesn't care about the issue because he hasn't he's chosen not to talk about it in the last four or five weeks while he's been preparing to become prime minister. So I've got no confidence in open borders, Burnham. and as far as Shabana Mahmoud's concerned she is not taking the radical action needed she's paying the French to do nothing and tinkering at the edges instead of taking the fundamental action that is required so I'm afraid I've got no confidence in this Labour government it's my job as Shadow Home Secretary to hold them to account and the reason I went to France this week and went out on the channel was to expose their failings which I think I've successfully done but I'll also be holding them to account in Parliament and also talking more about our new plan to fix this as well.

17:48Noa Hoffman: But we still have weeks left of recess and we can see that number 10, so far, to be fair, have done a good job at controlling the narrative and the discourse around politics since Andy Burnham's become prime minister. How, before parliament comes back, are you going to make sure this issue stays on the agenda and in a way sort of drag him to confront what poll after poll shows is one of the main issues concerning people in this country. How are you going to make sure that this issue stays on the agenda? Yeah, well, I mean, the public are right to be furious about this. Our border security is being violated on an almost daily basis.

18:24And let's not forget, many of these illegal immigrants go on to commit terrible criminal offences, including murder and rape on a really quite large scale. I mean, case after case after case. Burnham doesn't want to talk about this and it's part of our job to make sure he is made to confront this issue. And that is why, and that's frankly the main reason I was out on the channel on Tuesday getting shot at by the French and on the beaches of France, northern France on Wednesday, waist deep in water, standing next to a people smuggler on the back of a dinghy. The reason I did that isn't because I enjoy getting wet or enjoy getting shot at.

18:57It's because I wanted to bring this issue right to the top of the political agenda and to force Andy Burnham to confront it instead of hiding from the issue, which is what he wants to do. It's part of my job as Shadow Home Secretary to work out how to raise this issue up the agenda, to make the Prime Minister confront it. And if it takes me wading into the English Channel next to a people smuggler's boat to do that, I'm prepared to do it.

19:24Noa Hoffman: Chris, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast and sharing your insights from France. Andy Burnham might not be too keen to talk about illegal migration at the moment, but we will certainly be shining a light on the issue so long as it remains. So Chris, thank you so much for joining and thank you for listening to Coffeehouse Shots.

20:07Noa Hoffman: This is the story of the one. As a shipping manager, he's running the dock, stocking supplies, and making sure every order goes out on time. And Grainger helps him stay prepared. From shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools, he counts on Grainger to keep products moving and trucks rolling. So his operation runs smoothly, no matter the shift. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by Grainger. For the ones who get it done.